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resoundingenvoy
Member Posts: 439
Ok, so tricobolt mines where doing damage so massive they had to be nerfed before even proper testing could be done to realized how cross linked things had become. Basically, if I understand, they allowed people with a certain setup to kill someone without a equally absurd counter. (A setup ignoring all else just for that). They could do this on a 60 second timer. Not only did this have to be stopped, it had to be stopped right this second, and to hell with the consequences.
So I stopped repressing how bad PvP has been borked to realize something: HDC setups with tactical captains have been doing enough damage to burn through 24K+ shields and 80-90% of 50K hull in under one second, in one volley. Assuming the first volly didn't work? There are at worst another three to four on the way before the first ability that allows it expires. This can be done on a 30-90 second timer.
This has been going on for more then a year.
If one scenario merits a nerf, why does the other not?
So I stopped repressing how bad PvP has been borked to realize something: HDC setups with tactical captains have been doing enough damage to burn through 24K+ shields and 80-90% of 50K hull in under one second, in one volley. Assuming the first volly didn't work? There are at worst another three to four on the way before the first ability that allows it expires. This can be done on a 30-90 second timer.
This has been going on for more then a year.
If one scenario merits a nerf, why does the other not?
Post edited by resoundingenvoy on
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um...it was like this since launch. pvp here is a joke.
Former/Cryptic Name: Captain_Hans_Langsdorff
Founding member, Special Service Squadron
"Fear God and Dread Nought." First Sea Lord, Adm. Jacky Fisher
Cryptic can run all the bootcamps they want. Let them run a hundred of them and give free prizes. I won't even consider participating until they fix it. If they do, though, the PvPers will probably cry so loud and long that it will get changed back to its current and pathetic broken form.
In PvE, people were using tric mines to one-shot gates and such, breaking the missions in a way.
I'll bet you my spare JHAS that the gates didn't complain but the PvPers did...
Yea, but I haven't been around sense launch, and they didn't try to mess with the TB stuff until recently. Unless I missed something the logic for doing one should apply to the other ...
Don't get me wrong, I may not be skipping happy with the way they deal with it, but that fact they took note of a problem and actually did something about it is cool to me.
Does that mean if a dev makes the gates say something negative about getting blown up, they get your spare JHAS? :P
Honestly, at some point, I'd like to see a diminishing returns curve for weapons output that mirrors the one for damage resistance, and then set weapons at different points on the curve. A beam array, which is lower on the curve, will get more of a percentage boost from the tac consoles than DHCs, which are higher up. Give them all identical cycle time/ power drain behavior and you've gone a long way towards making the game's PvE and PvP play manageable and balanced.
Please note that I used the past tense regarding the gates, just in case anyone TRIBBLE the gates to say something!!
I am a casual player, I do well in pvp. I only have ONE piece of mark 12 gear on my ship, the borg cutting beam array. I only use blue mark 11 consoles. I also fly an escort. I have seen other escorts be shredded by cruisers, and I have seen many cruisers be shreded by escorts. Most of the time someone just has not taken the time to ASK FOR HELP with their pvp build and they immediatly go into a rage or just quit.
Also, if you are dieing within one second of an escort shooting at you, then you are doing something wrong. (with your build) It is extremely simple to make a basic defense strategy for every ship in the game. two tac teams to redirect shields, and two emergency power to shield abilities. These abilities will prevent you from dieing within 1 second of anyone shooting you. (unless the tric mines are un fixed and they crit for 150k again)
PLEASE if you did poorly in an arena match or 1v1 someone, do not quit or rage, ask for help. if you want any help send me a mail in game and I will gladly help you. @BigGunner is my @handle. I can help very much with escort builds and some with cruiser builds. but forget science I have no idea how to work one of those fancy ships
Not really my point though. I'm chasing after a root cause.
I don't, actually, and, so far, I do pretty good in PvP. That said, I've still had ships shredded in under 3 seconds by the raw DPS output that escorts can produce. That's broken. Also, the ways you can defend yourself from that sort of ridiculously over-powered assault don't regenerate fast enough to keep up with what an escort can do. Skill helps, of course, but in this case your skill is really about how you can get around broken PvP interactions.
I don't ever really need to consider how to deal with other science ships or cruisers. I only need to worry about surviving ridiculous escort DPS spikes. PvP play is dominated by that tactic because there are few viable alternatives.
oh baaawwwww, least it absolutely ensured the optional was won.
http://www.arcgames.com/en/games/star-trek-online/news/detail/10052253
Why are you not rejoicing?
The only way you can get shredded in 3 seconds is if you do not have the proper gear and are caught by surprise. IF you actually have the situational awareness to defend yourself before an attack you can survive. Pop a tac team when you see an escort use a Attack Pattern Alpha, or if you hear (yes, there is an audio cue) decloak. That will be enough to buy you some time to use EPtS or another shield heal.
A fully buffed alpha strike only last about 15 seconds. After that, a tactical escorts DPS levels drops to a nominal level and you can mount a counter offensive. In a pinch, such tricks such as Jam Sensors or Scramble Sensors can ruin an alpha strike.
In reality, what makes a damage spike devastating is when it is timed between your healing cooldown. That is where pressure damage from a heavy cruiser comes in. They make you use your heals on minor damage, and then an escort spikes you before you can cooldown.
And if I were to ask you if you could tell me the difference between a system that's easy to abuse and a system that works, could you tell me the difference? Either way not the point.
The point? As you just said, it can be done. We just got hit with a wambulance causing tricobolt update because as you said "you can get shredded in under 3 seconds". Yet the ability for escorts and tactical captains to do the exact same affect from greater range and less warning with HDC remains. It's a inconsistency.
Either it was right to remove tricobolt mine super damage and general damage dealing by tactical escorts that allows them to do the same needs be nerfed into the ground also -OR- it was wrong and tricobolt needs to be put back the way it was.
The difference is with just a couple of readily available (to all ship classes) abilities you can drastically reduce the damage received by an Escort that's fully buffed. With the Tric Mines as they were, it made no difference how much resistance you were running* as the numbers dealt were so high that you were in a bad way after the first hit, the other 1, 2 or 3 mines were just gravy. And that's assuming you didn't just get instapopped by the AoE splash damage from another mine hitting your Tric'.
For PvE the mines were just TRIBBLE because they required absolutely no skill at all to deal insane amounts of damage. You keep mentioning Tac Escorts yet those Tac Escorts that are taking a beating and dealing good damage are running with buff bars as wide as the minimap, the mines were dealing even greater burst damage with no other effort than hitting the buff for the dispersal patter and then dropping the mine.
*I seriously dislike MMO PvP but do occasionally dabble to help friends/ fleet mates to test new builds. When I can be hit by a 3 pack of 75k hits from a mine that I can't even see due to a mask affect, yeah. I can see why people wanted them fixed, for PvE they allowed (still do, IMO) massive damage to be dealt with no effort and for those that enjoy PvP, they suck a lot of fun out of things. One shots suck in PvE, they're nothing but cheap shots. It's no different when an invisible mine dropped by a player one shots you through full shields, either.
That not only have to be taken to survive, but also available within that one second gap (If the server is even kind enough to respond in time) before your so heavily damaged the battle is decided.
Edit: This is only a relation to the point though.
Don't link the two directly, I don't directly. I'll grant you 70K+ hits are nasty, but here its the thing and why "connect the two": Guess how much damage a single volley has to do to burn through 20K+ shields and 80%+ of 50K+ hull without defending abilities active? How much damage where the super mines doing again? :P
There is a technical difference in how the damage is delivered. There is no practical difference in the .02seconds the server takes to tally the damage. (Edit:That would be the point.)
EPtS and Tac Team aren't on and off abilities, EPtS can be chained with 100% uptime and will drastically reduce any damage you receive whilst Tac Team lasts for 10 seconds and can be run with 66% uptime so server latency is a non issue.
I also don't see the issue with having to run multiple damage resistance buffs to mitigate the damage received from multiple damage buffs.
They are linked directly though, you're comparing damage dealt but from two sources: an Escort with multiple stacked damage buffs and a single damage buff affecting a mine that's dropped, forgotten and waiting to instapop someone that can't even see it's there. If you're going to keep using this .02 seconds as an issue, then the mines were a much bigger problem for those trying to out-heal and not resist the damage.
Guess how much damage is mitigated by running simple Ensign level abilities that buff your shield damage resistance that will mean that the big attack that's incoming, using multiple stacked damage buffs, will now have to burn through all four facings and deal with damage reduction from abilities and increased shield power?
Of course, that's another issue with the mines. They dealt all their damage in one hit so Tac Team wouldn't help as the damage being dealt would overwhelm it's redistribution, Escorts are dealing it over 5-10 seconds so Tac Team does an amazing job of making sure that you're hurt but in one piece at the other end.
The only attack that would have been an issue with server latency (or whatever this .02 seconds is) is a Tric' mine due to the instant damage, Escorts are dealing that damage over several seconds and on top of that shield resistance buffs can be active for 100% of the time so again, latency isn't an issue.
Let me see if I follow this right, because either I missed something or you just shot your self in the foot.
Resoundingenoy: 60K+ in one HDC volly is not cool.
Mwgacy1: It's balanced, you can take a counter.
Resoundingenoy: No, I have take that counter.
Mwgacy1: No. You have to take that counter twice or die, so everything is alright.
The problem? It's not optional. It's not if I don't have it I'll suffer for it, but be ok because I have all these other shiny options to choose from. It's taking both to extremes and choking everything else out.
Ok, as for the rest? Let tell you I mean and ask if you still stand by what you said.
Where did I get the 0.02 seconds?
Mines do their damage in one big hit.
DHC don't do the damage in one hit. However, A full volley will impact and total to a likewise absurd number in less time then it takes the server to register and carry out a command from a defender to do something defensive. So, I think the difference in time passed between single mine hit and a cannon volly to be moot.
More clear or less clear? Still want to stand by what you said?
thats like looking at steaming hot coffe thats melting the lid, and then pouring it on your face, and then complaining that its the coffees fault when you could have taken the precaution of drinking it carefully. so what are you going to complain the coffee must be served cold and make everyone suffer? or are you going to adjust your ways and drink it carefully?
Escorts have to take attack patterns to deal massive.
so you have to take abilities to survive.
now you complain that the server reaction time is slow....ok so what? see below
how about this scenerio
emergency power to shields has 100% up time so this eliminates the server lag time issue
tac team has 66% up time, ok I see you can die when this is down. but escorts also have down time on there damage buffs.
so your flying a cruiser in an arena, you see an escort fully buffed coming at you. so what your telling me you wait untill its within weapon range to activate your defense buffs? because if you do then thats just a BAD idea, and yea, that escort will probably kill you because you activate your defensive buffs at severly the wrong time. see below
your flying your cruiser
escort pops up 35km away, it sees you, and turns to intercept.
your situationally aware of this so you turn accordingly and ready yourself
by now you should have your mouse on tac team, this gap is about to close, FAST.
at 15km that escort is gona activate all its buffs
attack pattern omega is going to close that last 5 km super quick
12 km, cruiser should be activating tac team
10km, escort opens fire on the cruiser
cruiser pilot judges incoming escorts damage and decides whether or not to activate
emergency power to shields
by now lets say 5 seconds have passed, attack pattern omega has 10 seconds left.
probably a good idea to hit emergency power to shields
cruisers shields regen, and are redirected by tac team
5 seconds left on attack pattern omega, cruisers tac team is offline, 5 second recharge left.
cruiser hits evasive manuvers and flys past the escort getting out of its fireing arc
the escort most likely hits evasive and turns to keep the cruiser in range
escorts fire hits the cruisers fresh shield facing.
cruisers tac team is off CD, escorts MAIN offensive buffs are now on cool down.
that is how i usually see it happen.
oh and incase someone trys to point at tric mines again.
this is how that usually goes when they one shot people.
cruiser is flying along deploying tric mines one happy day in arena
suddenly an escort appears!
the tric mines go after the escort!
escort activates tac team, emergency power to shields 2, polarize hull1, transfer shield strength 3, hazerd emitters 2, aux battery, sub space field modulator, brace for impact.!
the escort is hit for 150,000 damage by ONE tric mine! three more tric mines hit the escort!
yea, because theres a defense for 150,000 damage. thats twice as much more hull than the jem'hadar dreadnought, that can get 62,000 hull. oh, and times 4 for 4 tic mines. so basically, 600,000 damage.
so what your gona tell me that an escort can one shot your shields AND hull dealing 600,000 damage with one volley when you have tac team, emergency power to shields 2, polarize hull1, transfer shield strength 3, hazerd emitters 2, aux battery, sub space field modulator, brace for impact active?
BECAUSE THATS NOT HAPPENING. and if you say it does, then you are a liar.
That simplifies it down to the point what I do want to cry foul over doesn't exist anymore. Also it's a entirely separate point. I will answer this, but I will answer no more sidetracks. I'm spending all my time debating defensive walls rather then the OP.
To answer simply: No, that is not it. The most that could be said is that they cross paths at some points.
I am uninterested and treating the headache a flu causes. I want the virus gone.
loading159, All your secnarios assume I have nothing better to do then be purely offensive or spend my time watch what the other team is doing. I could just as well ask why didn't you count of 60 seconds between bursts, or watch for a dispersal pattern beta popping up.
I require a frame of reference to answer that. loading159, when is the last time you tried to do pure support? When is the last time you had to plan out your flight path in a carrier (or something else with a maximum turn rate of 6 to 9 deg/sec.) to keep from being out maneuvered too badly?
More then that, if I actually were able to show you "that an escort can one shot your shields AND hull dealing 600,000 damage with one volley", would you actually listen and read it, or would anything I say be ignored regardless because "I obviously have nothing useful to say"?
A little bit further back to the OP. Don't get bogged down in the little details if you want to win me over. (At least have a plan where your going with them.) There are difference between tricobolt mines absues pre-nerf, and HDC setups.
The differences are semantics. How they do what they do is different. What they do is not.
Edit: At the very least show you know what a middle ground would look and function like.
That sounds interesting. Ok, I'm listening.
The earth and jupiter are both planets. That does not make them equivalent. I'm sorry, but in this case, you don't know the very semantics that you are employing to try and win your argument.
Elite Defense Stovokor
No, what I'm saying is this. For an Escort to have a chance at killing anything it'll have to use most, if not all, of its primary damage buffs to penetrate the defences of another (competent) player. Without those damage buffs the DHCs will be doing little, the buffs are required.
For a Tric' mine to kill anything the way they were before they required no skill at all on the part of the player, just use the dispersal pattern, drop the mine and you're done.
My argument is this: the Escort is using many of its BOff and Captain abilities to get a kill, as well as the players personal skill. The Mines were cheap one shots with no skill or effort involved at all. If someone skilled was to use them, they just became even worse. One of those is the result of a good build and skill, the other isn't. Can you guess which is which?
A full volley from a CRF buffed DHC escort will hit over 8 seconds or so giving you more than enough time to react, as well as for your buffs, both those that provide a heal and those providing resistance, to help you. A one shot from a mine doesn't.
No, the difference is that one can be resisted using the abilities available to you in game, the other is a cheap shot.
barely getting killed once a match.
some people do not seem to be able to read the skill descriptions of APO, HE, TT, and others..
btw - for the mines TBR is also VERY helpful
As for science ship they will have emergency to shields, transfer shield strength, a high level HE or polarise hull, with increased shield cap too and tactical team. They can also just null the whole attack with scramble sensors or jam sensors.
Escorts, APO full engine power or even just 50 will get you something like 84-95% defence, you should have tactical team on anyway and just pop your shield heals to increase damage resistance, less than half the shots will hit you and of those that do the damage is reduced. Alternatively just fly past them and keep out of the limited firing arc.
The OP strikes me as someone who is either with bad players that don't help each other in PvP, has been the victim of a pre made with a combo of very hard to counter consoles or just isn't experienced enough to know some of the better counters.
As for mines, to the guy saying about cruisers getting 110k+ x4 mines, most cruisers and science ships can only slot dispersal 1 or 2 giving maximum 3 mines and even then it comes at a huge disadvantage. The main problems came from once again all the damage that a tactical (and it more or less had to be) in an escort running dispersal 3 with APO1 x2 so as to keep high defence and high damage.
I'm not saying they shouldn't have done something but it made trics unusable by anyone but tacticals now. I'm very annoyed at how my sci in a wells was useful as a tric bomber (PvE, I don't PvP much at all) I could launch a gravity well, bunch up a load of probes or spheres (in the case of spheres use sensor scan) drop 3 mines while getting close and having to try hard not to die. Then I would be rewarded by them getting the spheres down to 50%health maybe more with a crit and it would usually take out the probes once all 3 mines hit. Now I'm luck to kill probes with them and as much debuffs as I can put on the targets with my limited tactical slots.
Someone mentioned about an upper limit on damage, I think that would certainly have been much better in the tricobalt case.
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
thats one of the problem.
nearly nobody uses anything to clear mines (or sci powers - which are just as "useful" as tric mines), just pure dmg builds out there. the next nerf will be all those "noobish OP" pets just because of the same reason.
WHY had the escort to die?
It was easy as hell to disable those 4 tric mines and it was difficult to use them effectively.
The tric mines where the only mines which somebody had to take care.
i died thousands of times, but rarely to mines...
the problem with PvE: the design is simply ridiculous. a sphere chained to a sphere repairing a cube, 4times, 3 cubes.
4 generators repairing a big generator repairing a big gate. 2 times
with a logical setting, more like the new Hive, there wouldn't be any problems people hitting the main goal with one shot.
i don't think pvp is broken, but the tanky raw-dps builds are. but i WILL be broken if the nerf keeps going on. there will be no need for playerskill, just put the nose to target and hammer spacebar
But really, it's not about PvP balance, it's about balance as a whole. If you can oneshot a boss level ship with a single volley of mines, THAT is broken. I'd love to see you, completely solo by yourself, do that in one, two, or even three superbuffed alpha strikes.
"oh but the optional!" Who cares about the optional, they're so easy to get anyways, you don't need a magical oneshot button to guarantee it.
Fanfiction! ZOMG! Read it now!
kate-wintersbite.deviantart.com/art/0x01-Treachery-293641403
I am a science captain, science vessel.
In PvP, I wind up 1 vs 1 an escort. I catch said escort piling on the buffs, so I hit him with a subnuc. Cool, I might actually survive his attack...
However, how am I supposed to kill him through the super-high defense value, the rep and set heals that might proc, and his couple of self-heals?
Remember, without going lockbox, the best tactical setup I have is the RSV (Luna class), which gives me one lt. tactical ability, as I need to burn both ensigns on TT for the 66% uptime to operate my shield tanking abilities...
Meanwhile, what are the odds that his normal guns will still pop me in the 33%ish time that the TTs are cycling, as both my engineering slots are slotting EPtS? My only hull heals therefore are HEs and I'll be taking bleedthrough the entire time...
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
it should be that hard, all mines should be a threat. that's what mines are for.
tractor beam has several counters too, so that can't be a real problem.
it gets only a problem if you try to keep other powers up all the time or don't bring a counter at all.
yes, that's the problem. you don't have many sci powers which are a threat for anyone.
i heard some time ago sci-captains where dangerous
Yes, in PvE.
On STFs I was able to basically solo most of the mission. My team could literally park at the gate while I duo trico bombed everything into dust.
A typical Tac/Escort build is capable of DPS in the 7k to 10k area - depending on team comp and what they're doing on it.
When Trico-madness was around, I was doing 10k at the absolute lowest but typically my DPS was in the 12k to 30k area. (20k was my general average)
My record spikes were well over one million points of damage in the short space of 17s for 42k averaged DPS.
The devs have the ability to mine data, to see how fast content is being completed.
And Borticus clearly stated several times that Trico+DPB+Crits was problematic in PvE due to how it trivialized content.
Now, people who are not very good at the game have an excuse to try and get better. Instead of relying on an overpowered mechanic to do all the work.
this is the reason i switched to KDF. Now i main 2 sci's in a B'rel. Torpedos, mines, i run full AUX all the time. Gravity Well Tachyon Beam, TBR. It'S fun, try it!