In PvE, people were using tric mines to one-shot gates and such, breaking the missions in a way.
This is the real reason why Trics were nerfed. Can't have folks finishing an STF in 4 minutes after all! All it took was a good lucky crit and even tac cubes were one shotted, orso I hear. My own all torp/mine ship never did anything near that... although it DID tend to have highest DPS in the group, a very cool feat for a sci cap in a sci vessel.
At some point someone needs to take a look at the current hull/shield values, determine an upper limit to damage resistance (which has been done) and then determine an upper limit to damage output (not been done at all), then set hull and shield values that are meaningful in terms of damage resistance.
Unnecessary Beam whining aside, I do think the game is balanced on completely the wrong curve points.
They say they balance things based on what the average player does.... but then allow the system to scale off to extremes and then people wonder what's wrong?!?!? This has bad effects both on PC and NPC ships.
loading159, All your secnarios assume I have nothing better to do then be purely offensive or spend my time watch what the other team is doing. I could just as well ask why didn't you count of 60 seconds between bursts, or watch for a dispersal pattern beta popping up.
I require a frame of reference to answer that. loading159, when is the last time you tried to do pure support? When is the last time you had to plan out your flight path in a carrier (or something else with a maximum turn rate of 6 to 9 deg/sec.) to keep from being out maneuvered too badly?
More then that, if I actually were able to show you "that an escort can one shot your shields AND hull dealing 600,000 damage with one volley", would you actually listen and read it, or would anything I say be ignored regardless because "I obviously have nothing useful to say"?
the only reason I chose 15 seconds was because I was just trying to give some advice to anyone reading. yes we could go through an entire 60 seconds but there are just so many possibilities that other capts can throw at you.
ok yea I do fly my escort a ton more than my cruiser. but thats because I like fast paced combat, got bored flying around in circles in my cruiser. When I do use my cruiser I fly the dreadnought or the ambassador. I try to keep the classes roles distinct on my characters so my tac focuses on dps and my eng focuses on tanking/support.
If you showed me an escort that can deal 600,000 damage in one volley id be listening, because I would for sure try that. so long as its not tric mines. those just are not fun.
I deleted half your quote I wanted to use but oh well. I agree that the op needs to offer something to fix the "problem" or tell us how/why he dies so fast. what his build is so maybe we can help. etc.
In PvP, I wind up 1 vs 1 an escort. I catch said escort piling on the buffs, so I hit him with a subnuc. Cool, I might actually survive his attack...
However, how am I supposed to kill him through the super-high defense value, the rep and set heals that might proc, and his couple of self-heals?
Remember, without going lockbox, the best tactical setup I have is the RSV (Luna class), which gives me one lt. tactical ability, as I need to burn both ensigns on TT for the 66% uptime to operate my shield tanking abilities...
Meanwhile, what are the odds that his normal guns will still pop me in the 33%ish time that the TTs are cycling, as both my engineering slots are slotting EPtS? My only hull heals therefore are HEs and I'll be taking bleedthrough the entire time...
Viral matrix causes escorts huge problems, and since you already hit him with a subnuc, you just wasted all his alpha abilities and they are now on cool down. youll have no trouble defending against this. there are also doffs that work with sensor scan ( i think thats the ability?) to reduce the targets offensive damage.
i have a tac fed side and i have yet to re-create the 81.8k quantum torpedo crit i ate from an escort in pvp about a week and a half ago.
note it wasn't a high yield 3 or spread - just a straight quantum torpedo crit.
as we have been saying since day 1, remove the tac ability to stack ALL of their +dmg buffs. they need to have a global cooldown equal to the attack pattern alpha duration.
it's disheartening to come back after 3 years to see that the problem only got worse and not better. it's equally disheartening to see the amount of players who have no idea what they are doing in ise or kse or can't solo kill two probes in under 30 seconds due to game changes like segregating the various stages of STF's, substantial increase in base damage for everyone and the dumbing down of space and ground combat in story modes. undine used to be a real threat before you could change your mission difficulty - now they are about as dangerous as a taco.
i have a tac fed side and i have yet to re-create the 81.8k quantum torpedo crit i ate from an escort in pvp about a week and a half ago.
note it wasn't a high yield 3 or spread - just a straight quantum torpedo crit.
as we have been saying since day 1, remove the tac ability to stack ALL of their +dmg buffs. they need to have a global cooldown equal to the attack pattern alpha duration.
it's disheartening to come back after 3 years to see that the problem only got worse and not better. it's equally disheartening to see the amount of players who have no idea what they are doing in ise or kse or can't solo kill two probes in under 30 seconds due to game changes like segregating the various stages of STF's, substantial increase in base damage for everyone and the dumbing down of space and ground combat in story modes. undine used to be a real threat before you could change your mission difficulty - now they are about as dangerous as a taco.
You can choke on a taco and die I MAY choke on my own laughter when fighting undine
Viral matrix causes escorts huge problems, and since you already hit him with a subnuc, you just wasted all his alpha abilities and they are now on cool down. youll have no trouble defending against this. there are also doffs that work with sensor scan ( i think thats the ability?) to reduce the targets offensive damage.
As I alluded to earlier, after the subnuc, "standard" shield tanking by a sci with 2xTT and EPtS I/II should allow me to stand up to the escort's standard fire without losing a shield at all. However, I'm still vulnerable to death-by-bleedthrough, and I'm also vulnerable once the cooldowns on the escort's buffs recycle - as a subnuc takes 2 minutes to recharge...
Therefore, the question remains, can I, with 2xDBB + torp + 2x-3x aft turrets + Lt. level tactical BOff power + science powers (2 ens. 2 Lt. 2 Lt. Cmd& 1 Cmdr, figure that there will be 2xHE for hull heals & 1x Polarize Hull for anti-tractor defense, so you have 5 BOff slots of 12 to play with).
VM will maybe extend my window of debilitation by 8-10 seconds if the weapons offline effect kicks in just as the subnuc/cooldowns on the alpha expire, and it might give me 8-10 seconds of "little to no defense" with it's engine offline proc. However, neither of these alone will enable/ensure that I will get the kill - as it is, I'm figuring that I have about 15-20 seconds, tops, to blow through shields, as the second tac team will go off "on schedule" reinforcing the escort's shields and shortly after escort's TT #2 expires the subnuc ends, and escort TT #1 will re-engage shortly after... So it most likely becomes a bleedthrough race, and I'm down a forward weapon, don't get cannons (RSV), and I have less hull (because I'm a shield tanker) than the escort to begin with...
Detecting big-time "anti-old-school" bias here. NX? Lobi. TOS/TMP Connie? Super-promotion-box. (aka the two hardest ways to get ships) Excelsior & all 3 TNG "big hero" ships? C-Store. Please Equalize...
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
As I alluded to earlier, after the subnuc, "standard" shield tanking by a sci with 2xTT and EPtS I/II should allow me to stand up to the escort's standard fire without losing a shield at all. However, I'm still vulnerable to death-by-bleedthrough, and I'm also vulnerable once the cooldowns on the escort's buffs recycle - as a subnuc takes 2 minutes to recharge...
Therefore, the question remains, can I, with 2xDBB + torp + 2x-3x aft turrets + Lt. level tactical BOff power + science powers (2 ens. 2 Lt. 2 Lt. Cmd& 1 Cmdr, figure that there will be 2xHE for hull heals & 1x Polarize Hull for anti-tractor defense, so you have 5 BOff slots of 12 to play with).
VM will maybe extend my window of debilitation by 8-10 seconds if the weapons offline effect kicks in just as the subnuc/cooldowns on the alpha expire, and it might give me 8-10 seconds of "little to no defense" with it's engine offline proc. However, neither of these alone will enable/ensure that I will get the kill - as it is, I'm figuring that I have about 15-20 seconds, tops, to blow through shields, as the second tac team will go off "on schedule" reinforcing the escort's shields and shortly after escort's TT #2 expires the subnuc ends, and escort TT #1 will re-engage shortly after... So it most likely becomes a bleedthrough race, and I'm down a forward weapon, don't get cannons (RSV), and I have less hull (because I'm a shield tanker) than the escort to begin with...
this is why I only play escorts and cruisers, lol.
The snark I detect and the fact you didn't actually wait for a answer tells me otherwise. Infant you go on to tell me you've already prejudiced your self...
The earth and jupiter are both planets. That does not make them equivalent. I'm sorry, but in this case, you don't know the very semantics that you are employing to try and win your argument.
I'd ask where earth and jupiter belong in this metaphor, but I'm not sure you paid enough attention to be able to place them. Nor am I sure where you got that metaphore. I went out of my way to grant the differences.
Either way: "I will answer [loading159], but I will answer no more sidetracks. I'm spending all my time debating defensive walls rather then the OP." (Because I know someone is going to jump on me for answering more, I said no more sidetracks. Not that I'd become mute.)
No, what I'm saying is this. For an Escort to have a chance at killing anything it'll have to use most, if not all, of its primary damage buffs to penetrate the defences of another (competent) player. Without those damage buffs the DHCs will be doing little, the buffs are required.
That alone doesn't scream a problem to you? "The problem? It's not optional. It's not if I don't have it I'll suffer for it, but be ok because I have all these other shiny options to choose from. It's taking both to extremes and choking everything else out"
For a Tric' mine to kill anything the way they were before they required no skill at all on the part of the player, just use the dispersal pattern, drop the mine and you're done.
My argument is this: the Escort is using many of its BOff and Captain abilities to get a kill, as well as the players personal skill. The Mines were cheap one shots with no skill or effort involved at all. If someone skilled was to use them, they just became even worse. One of those is the result of a good build and skill, the other isn't. Can you guess which is which?
That I will contest. I used tricobolt mines on my Kar'Fi just to match the theme of the frigates. It required planning to get close to a player, and get them to stay within range of the mines once deploy long enough to arm. Then they still have a good number of options to swat or escape the mines. Their bane was they couldn't be stopped or escaped. It was players didn't know how or see them. For being a cheap shot it's hit rate was pretty low. Even with four frigates helping me drop them right on top of someone.
Cannons on the other hand? Require only hit and run tactics with everything bound to a easily spammed key bind. Moving on though...
A full volley from a CRF buffed DHC escort will hit over 8 seconds or so giving you more than enough time to react, as well as for your buffs, both those that provide a heal and those providing resistance, to help you. A one shot from a mine doesn't. [...] No, the difference is that one can be resisted using the abilities available to you in game, the other is a cheap shot.
That was understood a while ago.
8seconds you say? three problems. First, People in PvP had a nasty habit of parking right next to big slow ships. Second, that assumes I have nothing better to do then watch every possible attack vector. Third, the battle is over long before those 8 seconds are up. Not even remotely the original point anyway.
Tricobolt was nerfed sheerly on the basis it was possible to abuse them to do absurd damage. (Ignoring the methods that were used to abuse them...)
It's actually been standard practice to do likewise practically unsurvivable absurd damage with HDC. Yet, they remain untouched.
tldr?
What lies implicit, but not spoken was not that there are all these defense you keep telling me about. It's that you need them to survive and that it's become a game of extremes. There is no middle ground.The middle ground is a smoking crater and firmly a causality. By nerfing tricobolt they have deemed extremes bad, but left the others untouched. Why?
hahaha PVP.. Well I started the second day of STO and have never seen balanced PVP here.. Klingons all get Viral matrix (remember that one?) Escorts that break the laws of physics (oh so cannon..) the Tric. tricks and very little from the Devs to cause hope.. welcome to STO enjoy your boxes..
If you showed me an escort that can deal 600,000 damage in one volley id be listening, because I would for sure try that. so long as its not tric mines. those just are not fun.
Nope, I couldn't even tell you had to get close to that. I should apologizes for being so hostile. I just wanted to make sure you were in fact paying attention and thinking after the "BECAUSE THATS NOT HAPPENING. and if you say it does, then you are a liar." line. :P
What I keep trying to figure out how to word doesn't look to be plainly visible.
I deleted half your quote I wanted to use but oh well. I agree that the op needs to offer something to fix the "problem" or tell us how/why he dies so fast. what his build is so maybe we can help. etc.
The OP strikes me as someone who is either with bad players that don't help each other in PvP, has been the victim of a pre made with a combo of very hard to counter consoles or just isn't experienced enough to know some of the better counters.
I'm not looking for that kind of fix. I'm being too indirect or hostile maybe? I can configure my ship to fend off more then one alpha strike if I absolutely have to. As I said, I'm not interested in fixing the symptoms.
At some point I'm certain there was a middle ground. It died to things drifting to far to the fringes. The tricobolt nerf was a message that the extreme fringes were unacceptable to the devs vision of the game. They stomped on a extreme, hard!
Reason why tric mines had to be nerfed some is that while they didn't seem op for average people, they could get ridiculously high damage numbers from tacs fully specced into both projectile skills and running all purple tric mines with crit mods and purple tric consoles. I was regularly hitting for over 200k per mine on crits, and when 1 crits they all crit. I even got up to almost 300k per mine before on a crit before against Donatra on elite. Thats almost 1.2 million damage, it almost 1 shotted her.
You can't do nearly the same kind of damage with DHC.
Now only people that have tacs with full projectile spec will be able to do decent damage with these mines, and even then it almost never 1 shots cubes, and sometimes players are able to survive multiple mine hits. I think a nerf might have been needed, but perhaps they went a little too far and should find a middle ground between how they perform now and before the nerf. It should be super high damage, but not enough to 1 shot a boss on elite or get close to doing it.
Ok, but I meant middle where I could take no or few defensive abilities, still be useful, and not be stopped dead by the first tactical escort that comes along.
That or bite back hard enough that while I didn't match the direct damage of someone setup to do massive damage, we'd chew each other badly enough it wouldn't be a one sided fight. Right now fights are pretty cut and dry where there is a clear defender and a clear attacker, and nothing in between.
Ok, but I meant middle where I could take no or few defensive abilities, still be useful, and not be stopped dead by the first tactical escort that comes along.
That or bite back hard enough that while I didn't match the direct damage of someone setup to do massive damage, we'd chew each other badly enough it wouldn't be a one sided fight. Right now fights are pretty cut and dry where there is a clear defender and a clear attacker, and nothing in between.
ok ill go for making science ships deal more damage. but I must point out that the classes are basically defined as, escort = attacker, cruiser = support/defender, science = support/debuff. I think you meant to say there is a clear winner / loser, as in 5-0. So sure maybe making science ships deal more damage would be good. but then I want the vestas aux cannon to be unique per ship. I only say increase science ships damage because when I fight them I worry mostly about getting hit with a sub nuc over anything esle they can throw out. however I usually find that science ships are the hardest to kill, more so than cruisers.
Comments
This is the real reason why Trics were nerfed. Can't have folks finishing an STF in 4 minutes after all! All it took was a good lucky crit and even tac cubes were one shotted, orso I hear. My own all torp/mine ship never did anything near that... although it DID tend to have highest DPS in the group, a very cool feat for a sci cap in a sci vessel.
Unnecessary Beam whining aside, I do think the game is balanced on completely the wrong curve points.
They say they balance things based on what the average player does.... but then allow the system to scale off to extremes and then people wonder what's wrong?!?!? This has bad effects both on PC and NPC ships.
the only reason I chose 15 seconds was because I was just trying to give some advice to anyone reading. yes we could go through an entire 60 seconds but there are just so many possibilities that other capts can throw at you.
ok yea I do fly my escort a ton more than my cruiser. but thats because I like fast paced combat, got bored flying around in circles in my cruiser. When I do use my cruiser I fly the dreadnought or the ambassador. I try to keep the classes roles distinct on my characters so my tac focuses on dps and my eng focuses on tanking/support.
If you showed me an escort that can deal 600,000 damage in one volley id be listening, because I would for sure try that. so long as its not tric mines. those just are not fun.
I deleted half your quote I wanted to use but oh well. I agree that the op needs to offer something to fix the "problem" or tell us how/why he dies so fast. what his build is so maybe we can help. etc.
Viral matrix causes escorts huge problems, and since you already hit him with a subnuc, you just wasted all his alpha abilities and they are now on cool down. youll have no trouble defending against this. there are also doffs that work with sensor scan ( i think thats the ability?) to reduce the targets offensive damage.
note it wasn't a high yield 3 or spread - just a straight quantum torpedo crit.
as we have been saying since day 1, remove the tac ability to stack ALL of their +dmg buffs. they need to have a global cooldown equal to the attack pattern alpha duration.
it's disheartening to come back after 3 years to see that the problem only got worse and not better. it's equally disheartening to see the amount of players who have no idea what they are doing in ise or kse or can't solo kill two probes in under 30 seconds due to game changes like segregating the various stages of STF's, substantial increase in base damage for everyone and the dumbing down of space and ground combat in story modes. undine used to be a real threat before you could change your mission difficulty - now they are about as dangerous as a taco.
You can choke on a taco and die
Please review my campaign and I'll return the favor.
As I alluded to earlier, after the subnuc, "standard" shield tanking by a sci with 2xTT and EPtS I/II should allow me to stand up to the escort's standard fire without losing a shield at all. However, I'm still vulnerable to death-by-bleedthrough, and I'm also vulnerable once the cooldowns on the escort's buffs recycle - as a subnuc takes 2 minutes to recharge...
Therefore, the question remains, can I, with 2xDBB + torp + 2x-3x aft turrets + Lt. level tactical BOff power + science powers (2 ens. 2 Lt. 2 Lt. Cmd& 1 Cmdr, figure that there will be 2xHE for hull heals & 1x Polarize Hull for anti-tractor defense, so you have 5 BOff slots of 12 to play with).
VM will maybe extend my window of debilitation by 8-10 seconds if the weapons offline effect kicks in just as the subnuc/cooldowns on the alpha expire, and it might give me 8-10 seconds of "little to no defense" with it's engine offline proc. However, neither of these alone will enable/ensure that I will get the kill - as it is, I'm figuring that I have about 15-20 seconds, tops, to blow through shields, as the second tac team will go off "on schedule" reinforcing the escort's shields and shortly after escort's TT #2 expires the subnuc ends, and escort TT #1 will re-engage shortly after... So it most likely becomes a bleedthrough race, and I'm down a forward weapon, don't get cannons (RSV), and I have less hull (because I'm a shield tanker) than the escort to begin with...
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
this is why I only play escorts and cruisers, lol.
The snark I detect and the fact you didn't actually wait for a answer tells me otherwise. Infant you go on to tell me you've already prejudiced your self...
I'd ask where earth and jupiter belong in this metaphor, but I'm not sure you paid enough attention to be able to place them. Nor am I sure where you got that metaphore. I went out of my way to grant the differences.
Either way: "I will answer [loading159], but I will answer no more sidetracks. I'm spending all my time debating defensive walls rather then the OP." (Because I know someone is going to jump on me for answering more, I said no more sidetracks. Not that I'd become mute.)
That alone doesn't scream a problem to you? "The problem? It's not optional. It's not if I don't have it I'll suffer for it, but be ok because I have all these other shiny options to choose from. It's taking both to extremes and choking everything else out"
That I will contest. I used tricobolt mines on my Kar'Fi just to match the theme of the frigates. It required planning to get close to a player, and get them to stay within range of the mines once deploy long enough to arm. Then they still have a good number of options to swat or escape the mines. Their bane was they couldn't be stopped or escaped. It was players didn't know how or see them. For being a cheap shot it's hit rate was pretty low. Even with four frigates helping me drop them right on top of someone.
Cannons on the other hand? Require only hit and run tactics with everything bound to a easily spammed key bind. Moving on though...
That was understood a while ago.
8seconds you say? three problems. First, People in PvP had a nasty habit of parking right next to big slow ships. Second, that assumes I have nothing better to do then watch every possible attack vector. Third, the battle is over long before those 8 seconds are up. Not even remotely the original point anyway.
Tricobolt was nerfed sheerly on the basis it was possible to abuse them to do absurd damage. (Ignoring the methods that were used to abuse them...)
It's actually been standard practice to do likewise practically unsurvivable absurd damage with HDC. Yet, they remain untouched.
tldr?
What lies implicit, but not spoken was not that there are all these defense you keep telling me about. It's that you need them to survive and that it's become a game of extremes. There is no middle ground. The middle ground is a smoking crater and firmly a causality. By nerfing tricobolt they have deemed extremes bad, but left the others untouched. Why?
Nope, I couldn't even tell you had to get close to that. I should apologizes for being so hostile. I just wanted to make sure you were in fact paying attention and thinking after the "BECAUSE THATS NOT HAPPENING. and if you say it does, then you are a liar." line. :P
What I keep trying to figure out how to word doesn't look to be plainly visible.
I'm not looking for that kind of fix. I'm being too indirect or hostile maybe? I can configure my ship to fend off more then one alpha strike if I absolutely have to. As I said, I'm not interested in fixing the symptoms.
At some point I'm certain there was a middle ground. It died to things drifting to far to the fringes. The tricobolt nerf was a message that the extreme fringes were unacceptable to the devs vision of the game. They stomped on a extreme, hard!
So why then have they left the others in place?
You can't do nearly the same kind of damage with DHC.
Now only people that have tacs with full projectile spec will be able to do decent damage with these mines, and even then it almost never 1 shots cubes, and sometimes players are able to survive multiple mine hits. I think a nerf might have been needed, but perhaps they went a little too far and should find a middle ground between how they perform now and before the nerf. It should be super high damage, but not enough to 1 shot a boss on elite or get close to doing it.
That or bite back hard enough that while I didn't match the direct damage of someone setup to do massive damage, we'd chew each other badly enough it wouldn't be a one sided fight. Right now fights are pretty cut and dry where there is a clear defender and a clear attacker, and nothing in between.
ok ill go for making science ships deal more damage. but I must point out that the classes are basically defined as, escort = attacker, cruiser = support/defender, science = support/debuff. I think you meant to say there is a clear winner / loser, as in 5-0. So sure maybe making science ships deal more damage would be good. but then I want the vestas aux cannon to be unique per ship. I only say increase science ships damage because when I fight them I worry mostly about getting hit with a sub nuc over anything esle they can throw out. however I usually find that science ships are the hardest to kill, more so than cruisers.