Wall of text! Last paragraph isn't really a tldr but I guess it summarizes a bit.
I think there are two main issues going on.
1. Cruiser/Sci Vessels being obsolete compared to escorts. In many cases, yes. What really matters in STO? Elite STF missions. How many of those involve ships that actually fight back for a majority of the run? One, Hive. Look at Khitomer... one Tac cube at the start for everyone to pile on damage to. Then a bunch of probes that -don't shoot back-. The occasional cube from popping transformers, but it's a normal cube so basically it's as easy to kill as a sphere and it barely attacks. A tac/escort can kill it in 15-20 seconds if they use their buffs right, only getting hit once or twice. Other than that, nothing fights back until a gateway pops and Spheres spawn at the other side, but then it doesn't really matter because there is 2-3 spheres and all 5 players are there within seconds. No matter what you fly, if you outnumber them that much, it doesn't matter, but tac/escort still kills them the fastest. Same with Infected. A couple enemy ships at the start, then one ship that all 5 people blow up in seconds, then some generators that don't fight back, as well as a string of probes that don't fight back until the transformer is down. The main problem with all of this is that there is no give and take with combat. Who needs to tank/survive when you don't get shot at... and when you do, your team outnumbers the enemy massively and dps is still king. However, in Hive, I feel like Eng and Sci are very useful in Cruisers/Sci Vessels. I use an Atrox with 2 sets of Advanced Stalker Fighters(spamming Antiproton Sweep), Omega Space Set(Tetryon Glider), Polarized Tetryon Beam Arrayx5(4x the proc rate of other Tetryon weapons) and the Kinetic Cutting Beam. I maxed Flow Capacitors and I have Tachyon Beam III and some other anti-shield abilities. If you ever want to see the Borg Queen be at 90% Hull when all her facing shields hit 0, that's how you do it. 1-2 minute's per Unimatrix vessel because it has no shields? Yep. Even tactical cubes drop because they have no shields, but a tac/escort is still needed to do the hull damage directly once shields are down. In the other STF missions though, most of the targets have no shields, so most debuffs do nothing, it's all about raw DPS. I feel like having more back and forth combat in the STF missions can make support/tanky ships more useful, instead of just DPS DPS DPS. This sort of leads me to problem #2...
2. Ships are too close, stat wise. I know the boff layout and consoles changes things quite a bit, but when you consider how much diminishing returns there are on consoles, it isn't as drastic as you may think. Another part of this problem is Hull. It is safe to assume that Hull is the amount of meat the ship has... how beefy it is... Look at the size of an escort compared to an Odyssey. I'd say the Odyssey is at least 15 times more mass than an escort. Keep in mind, it isn't just the length of the ship that matters, the Odyssey is much wider and full of important stuffs I'm sure. The average Odyssey I see is ~57k hull. The average escort i see is ~43k. To me, that doesn't make any sense. Tanks aren't as useful because their hull is only ~30% more than an escort, even though some are ~1500% larger, in this case. Is an escort the best tank? Of course not, but when you balance damage vs tankyness increase, it usually doesn't pay off. I'm not saying cruisers are bad for dps, in fact I use a Fleet Advanced Heavy Cruiser Retrofit on my Tac and I think it's great, however, the DPS just doesn't compare to an escort. What can help with this? Maybe giving cruisers a hull boost would be a way, but I think a better way would be to lower the hull of escorts. Now, I know ~80% of the playerbase just clicked the little X to close this page, but it makes sense to lower their hull. However, a straight up nerf is -never- the right way to go. There has to be a balance for any change in a game. Lowering hull is just one thing to make the ships more differentiated, but giving escorts a boost to defense(evasion) would make them more of the hit-and-run class they are supposed to be. To make the ships more unique in their own way, there could be a boost to skills. For example, based on the tier of the ship, add a bonus to -all- tac skills in the tree for tac captains in escort ships. Add a bonus to -all- engineer abilities for eng captains in a cruiser. If you didn't see this one coming, prepare to have your mind blown... Add a bonus to -all- science abilities when a science captain is in a Science Vessel.
In the end, giving probes in Khitomer/Infected the ability to fire back, even if it's not crazy damage like a sphere/cube, would mean you can't just sit there and press spacebar whenever a probe gets near. You would need to have a bit of defensive abilities, instead of just pure dps. Lowering escort's hull and raising their defense means they won't just try to facetank everything with their DHC. Constantly moving around and finding open spots would mean they would get hit less often, as it should be... instead of having them be almost as tanky as a cruiser. Stat bonuses for captains using their matching ship makes for a more defined class system. It would mean a Tac would not have a better GW3 than a Sci, but they could use it just as well as they can today. Most of this isn't nerfs, it's buffs, in an attempt at making the other ships more viable. I think it goes without saying that the game is very DPS based. I think these options here would add more value to the other methods and I believe it goes along with what the thread is about.
The andorian ship, the vesta line, the odyssey...the lockbox ships...what do they have in common? increasing reliance on damage output rather than science or engineering performance.
Vestas are literally a cruiser with sci ship abilities but their primary benefit is weapon/damage output. aux cannons? Hello?
Sci is dead and nailed down into the coffin... by order of cryptic higher ups. It will never be fixed or given a role in the game.
The sad truth is as of this moment sci captains are best putting their skillpoints into tactical and tanking abilities and flying escorts, cruisers or carriers.
The Vesta is an Assualt Cruiser more precisely and Aux cannons are a joke. That is NOT what makes it a DPS boat. What makes it a DPS boat is being able to equip normal DHC's and its Quantum Focus beam which is brutal if you are a tactical captain flying the thing.
Sci has been nerfed extremely hard... It barely serves any function at this point as you say. The only good Sci skills are healing skills. I used to fly the Multi-Vector because its Lt. Com. Sci BOFF made it incredibly powerful compared to other Escorts. These days I prefer the Advanced Escort BOFF layout because that high level Sci BOFF is worthless compared to more Tactical Abilities. It seems only the Klingons can do anything very good with Sci, which is Power Drain setups, and only if you buy the right things.
It is truly sad just how "Hulk SMASH!" the game has become...
I disagree. I have a lot of fun in my Science ships, especially in teams. Using Gravity Well to round up mobs and watch the Escorts AoE them to death is great fun for me.
Unfortunately, fun != effective. STO fell into the DPS trap a while ago. As another posted earlier, can you play the game in a cruiser or science ship? Yes. But can you have an easier, faster, all around more effective experience in an escort? Abso-fragging-lutely darnit.
I like the idea of making escorts somewhat reliant on the presence of cruisers or scis. Either that or a buff of cruisers (beams) and a serious de-nerfing of sci powers.
PWE has decided, based on their analysis, that 'scort pewpew being the preferred min/maxer boat and tailoring the skills/builds/equipment/ships that way gives them the best opportunity to monetize.
If they are right...and it's likely they are...that there is a big enough majority in the "You can has cash, just give me moar pewpewpew!" to create a clear profit path that is higher than the rest, don't expect any changes to the strategy.
I may be cynical about it, but I also get that PWE's only business is business. If they could turn more profit making toasters, they would.
I have a suggestion. Just return some features back as they were before.
e.g
The exotic damage that sci abilities did. The debuf as it was
The EPS benefit for cruisers.
Remove the 10% defend bonus for escorts (see page 1 of thread).
Revamp and change some skills, eg Attack Patterns move to the last tier of skills (I wonder who had the idea that Threat Control is tier 4 skill at tactical tree. Give the man a prize.:eek:)
I guarantee that there will be a riot.
As to if sci ships and cruisers are still viable, yes and no. They have lost 50% of the benefits that they had.
I hope that someone in the development and analysis team at some time will make something about it.
As for those that say that I spent a lot of money on my escort and you should do the same, relax most of us have an escort, spend the same amount as you, we have a cruiser for the same toon spent 2 times the money you spend, and yes we have a science ship again for the same toon, we spend 3 times the amount of money. This comment is not directed to anyone but to the argument that I see in the threads which implies that only escort captains spent money (EC, Dil, $).
Personally I refuse to fly my escort and also play with my Tac captain. I will use an escort when it will a challenge.
P.S. :rolleyes: I wish I could use my Intrepid class instead of buying the Vesta line. Even if I had to pay the same amount I would do it, provided that the sci abilities where as it used to be.
As for ship classes being grossly out-of-whack some how, I disagree.
Ships are as only as good as their captains. DPS isn't a function of the weapons, it's a function of the build and the person who uses it. Make no mistake, a skilled captain is deadly regardless of the the ship or weapons used.
Not too long ago, someone took the time to explain how to use my boff skills effectively. My dps more than doubled. And that's as it should be. Yes, it sucks when changes impact your build. Get over it.
If you're not grasping that that game is more than an arbitrary dps value, then either you're in the wrong MMO. or you fixate on PvP way too much.
I love the idea of Sci ships...I would love to be able to slow, debuff, and do some decent damage...but I can't do that.
If I wasn't hurting myself more than helping I would fly my LRSVR I bought back before the game went f2p and I was still sorta new.
I don't understand why all sci abilities that do damage do kinetic damage. I don't understand why spatial anomalies do the same type of damage as my lousiville slugger, maybe I would be better off trying to beat a enemy ship with a bat as opposed to sci abilities...probably does comparable damage to a GWIII.
Why should I have to buy a Vesta in order to do some decent damage in a SCI ship? I'm not saying I should be able to do as much damage as a Escort as many others are saying, but why should I struggle to compete?
Can't have a honest conversation because of a white knight with power
I love the idea of Sci ships...I would love to be able to slow, debuff, and do some decent damage...but I can't do that.
If I wasn't hurting myself more than helping I would fly my LRSVR I bought back before the game went f2p and I was still sorta new.
I don't understand why all sci abilities that do damage do kinetic damage. I don't understand why spatial anomalies do the same type of damage as my lousiville slugger, maybe I would be better off trying to beat a enemy ship with a bat as opposed to sci abilities...probably does comparable damage to a GWIII.
Why should I have to buy a Vesta in order to do some decent damage in a SCI ship? I'm not saying I should be able to do as much damage as a Escort as many others are saying, but why should I struggle to compete?
Science captains in science ships are not supposed to do damage, they are supposed to do things like drain power, drop shields, disable engines, remove buffs, et cetera. By disabling the enemy and making him vulnerable they even the odds. The problem is, things such as shields, healing, and DPS have been buffed so much and science abilities have been nerfed so much that science ships have transformed from a fragile ship with good shields into a build that can really only be useful as a shield tank or with DPS gimmicks such as the Vesta.
If a science captain with 125 auxiliary power and skills in graviton generators throws out a gravity well, it should take a captain with 125 engine power to escape it. They should not just be able to casually waltz away at 1/4th engine power, but like all science abilities, it has been nerfed into oblivion.
To the young tacscort captain complaining about not being healed. Tell me when was the last time you used tactical team on a team member as they can't use it when they're using science or engineering team to heal others?
That's the only reason my science and engineering captains and ships don't take those two abilities, you cannot redistribute your shields enough manually to make up for the insane damage large targets in ESTF can do, so you need tactical team. Which clashes with cool down on other team abilities.
Mind my vesta heals an escort fully with HE2 and TSS2 but they have 30s GCD, believe me I would love to replace it with a 15s science team but the problem is no escort has ever used tactical team on anyone but themselves except the few intelligent ones doing star base blockade. So the few times I have been healing the team (with ST3)when mobs finally go after me I have to run away as no-one helps the healer when they need help.
My cruiser can make Donatra a breeze by keeping aggro but I have one fleet member that draws so much aggro that even with 84 points in threat control, APD and 2 delta taunt duty officers he somehow draws it again 10s after delta is finished.
Also to the people that say that science skills are useful, yes in PvP they can be but power insulators destroy all drain from players with just 3-6 points in them.
PvE it's a different story, the only good science abilities that don't heal are tractor beam repulsors, tykens rift and gravity well. Energy siphon is laughable at best (27 drain at max aux, polaron weapons do more), tachyon beam...drains less than an escorts cannons will deal in damage to the shields. Tractor beam, can be ok but do you really only need to stop ONE target while repulsors can push multiple targets away? Charged particle bust is just as laughable as tachyon beam, photonic shock wave can be good if you stack attack pattern beta, attack pattern alpha, fire on my mark etc but that's it and an escort would do it better, quicker and not need captain abilities.
Feedback pulse does sweet FA to the Borg. Gravity well, I've seen probes completely ignore it with over 100 points in graviton generators and max aux. Granted its becoming rarer to see it but it is strange to see one just tootle off to the portal ignoring it. Tykens can shut things down hard and is amazing when used on bosses. Only boss it's a problem on is Donatra and before you start saying that is a reason to use tractor beam, it isn't as she cloaks at 5km. Repulsers has saved the bacon on so many occasions it should probably get a lifetime achievement award.
Tactical abilities are much more useful when used on the weapons that benefit them. Engineering I still think could do with a look at to help them stand out a bit more and they certainly need some abilities buffed. I'm not saying nerf tactical, just make the other classes and ships able to compete in PvE gameplay at a considerable level.
Science captains in science ships are not supposed to do damage, they are supposed to do things like drain power, drop shields, disable engines, remove buffs, et cetera. By disabling the enemy and making him vulnerable they even the odds. The problem is, things such as shields, healing, and DPS have been buffed so much and science abilities have been nerfed so much that science ships have transformed from a fragile ship with good shields into a build that can really only be useful as a shield tank or with DPS gimmicks such as the Vesta.
If a science captain with 125 auxiliary power and skills in graviton generators throws out a gravity well, it should take a captain with 125 engine power to escape it. They should not just be able to casually waltz away at 1/4th engine power, but like all science abilities, it has been nerfed into oblivion.
So you think its completely fair and makes sense that all sci abilities do kinetic damage? I never said they should do a lot of dps but they do none right now.
So your saying I should just float there, waiting for my chance to grav well those probes! If the escorts kill them before I'm needed I should just sit around and do nothing huh? Are sci ships to kill with just there weapons when they solo?
Can't have a honest conversation because of a white knight with power
I have logged many Games the last Day's (Mostly Infected, DPS caculated over the whole game)
My Engineer does 5800 DPS in a Vesta (Sci Vessel) while tanking. (Peregrine Fighters let you 20% more Damge)
My Tac in a Cardassian Galor does 6000 DPS. Awesome Cruiser with 2 Torps, 5 Spiralwave and 1 Mine.
My Sci in a Fleet Sience Vessel do 4000 DPS on this Map. (4 Beams + 2 Quantums) But the main fact is that the supported Tac can do over 8000 DPS with sensor analysis in STF. This makes 1 Sci f?r debuffing, 1 Engineer for Tanking and 3 Tac to a nearly imbalanced Game.
In Fact that mean with 3 TAC a Sci can do over 10000 DPS in 1 Game. He does 4000 DPS and boosting the others with nearly 6000 DPS.
That the Trick how you can beat infected in 6 Minutes.
If we take a look to the 20 Player Starbase Fleet Defense. My engineer was in the DPS (4700 on this map) Range the 4 th. (With mostly Tacs in this game). Our DPS average was about 1800 DPS. We got all Building on 100% and got 127 Fleetmarks.
No imaging how low the DPS of the others muss be to Fail this Map. I think it musst be under 1000 DPS.
The game and the Classes are so good balanced that no nerf is needed. Every nerv of the Tac's is a waste of time, cause the boost given by i good Sci is awesome (~2000 DPS if you work as Team).
And for the Kumari Ship. I haven't seen a Kumari in this week, that beat the 5000 DPS. I dont think that Ship is overpowered.
A big part of the problem as I see it is the fundamental difference between guns and tactical consoles, which always work, and science abilities and consoles which are all attached to cooldowns. An escort with a 4 dual heavy cannons and 4 tactical consoles of their choice will dish out tremendous damage, even when they are not actively using their tactical abilities like Rapid Fire. Having flow capacitors only helps you when you're doing something flow-cappy like draining power or draining shields, and those abilities all have painfully long cooldowns. A science ship should ALWAYS be sciencing, in the same way that a tactical ship ALWAYS enjoys their benefits of high agility, high-dps weapons, and large weapon performance boosts.
Which is why I suggested ages ago that what we need is a total overhaul of science abilities focusing on uninterrupted "up time" on abilities that don't share systems. Basically you should be able to have one ability utilizing your Sensors, Deflectors, Probes, and Tractors non-stop, or nearly non-stop. This means turning on your tractor beam AND releasing a series of charged particle bursts AND jamming the enemy's targeting sensors, and doing this often enough that you can actually use it as a strategy to overcome and destroy your target.
A science ship's science abilities ARE its weapons. It needs the freedom to use them as escorts are free to use theirs.
But, of course this is all just pie in the sky daydreaming.
To the young tacscort captain complaining about not being healed. Tell me when was the last time you used tactical team on a team member as they can't use it when they're using science or engineering team to heal others?
May be I am wrong, but as a escort's captain if I do not have always TT on my ships, I am a dead captain. It's impossible surviving under the enemy fire without TT even if a someone is healing you.
I think devs should change ST and ET...
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Playing STO spamming FAW is like playing chess using always the computer's suggested moves
May be I am wrong, but as a escort's captain if I do not have always TT on my ships, I am a dead captain. It's impossible surviving under the enemy fire without TT even if a someone is healing you.
I think devs should change ST and ET...
Too right and I think TT should be changed too, if we need such an ability that redistributes shields to always be up, just to survive, it should either be a part of each team ability or it should be an ability in each class of skills.
However my point stands that if a science vessel or cruiser, that was healing others, is being targeted and can't have tactical team up as they have been healing others (global cool down on team abilities) it should fall on escorts that are no longer being targeted to use tactical team on them.
I hear a lot of whining from escorts about a lack of healing but when it becomes their time to give back to the healers they remain conspicuously absent. If you want 15s science teams and engineering teams on your tacscort then make sure you use tactical team on others when they need it. For the record I too don't often have to use tactical team on others as I usually have aggro in my escort or the player already has TT but I have done it on rare occasions to new players.
Why wouldn't all classes be capable of being DPS's?
I for one would much rather like to DPS using wells, shockwaves, tractor beams etc then stand behind a target hitting spacebar and a CD that in reality is just a button with a tooltip.
Damn, if you didn't figure out how boring and no-brainer this is i cant help you guys (not talkin to everyone obviously)
On a tac we have a button that says: Increases your damage by X amount and thats it, not special visual happens...nothing special rly...then hit a spacebar and thats it
Star trek online... oh star trek online, so much wasted potential, almost all of it is.
Ok if you stopped by this then thanks. ^^ Now down to business... Simply put cruisers need a damage output buff. Now to argue this point lets look at the Battleships of WWI and WWII.
These ships were built to both take devastating damage and to deal devastating damage..
Now im not saying make cruisers god-mode ships but its just that they are not what they were in the movies or shows. Their phasers were massive and dealt huge amounts of damage and could sustain a fight for hours if need be.
Im not looking to start an argument, I just want to have ideas thrown out there for things to maby change. :S
Ok if you stopped by this then thanks. ^^ Now down to business... Simply put cruisers need a damage output buff. Now to argue this point lets look at the Battleships of WWI and WWII.
These ships were built to both take devastating damage and to deal devastating damage..
Really, really, really bad analogy. Battleships were rendered obsolete by the introduction of the aircraft carrier, which enabled small, maneuverable and highly deadly craft to enter the battle space.
Sound familiar?
(Note: not making an argument for or against current balance points, just pointing out that asking for WWII era battleship balance is not the brightest concept when asking for a cruiser buff)
Really, really, really bad analogy. Battleships were rendered obsolete by the introduction of the aircraft carrier, which enabled small, maneuverable and highly deadly craft to enter the battle space.
To be fair, they entered the battlespace by entirely changing the medium in which they operated. Flight required entirely different design constraints and provided different advantages to sea travel.
This isn't a good comparison to fighters or destroyers/frigates in Star Trek.
To be fair, they entered the battlespace by entirely changing the medium in which they operated. Flight required entirely different design constraints and provided different advantages to sea travel.
True, but I'd personally argue that the introduction of small, nimble, and highly destructive ships (relative to their size) built for combat was a similar paradigm shift when it came to the Fed's design philosophies and combat doctrines.
And let's face it, said change was at least in part motivated by an enemy deploying highly effective tactics centered around swarms of smaller craft that were doing disproportionately well against the Fed's cruiser heavy fleets.
I think we all know that any serious look isn't going to happen. To do that you have to pay for dev time QA time/salary (if cryptic still uses such an otre notion). While in the mean time they can easily whip out some LB/cstore pixle collection that took about a week of work and get an immediate return on investment since morons will stand in line to buy it then speend a week on the forums *_____ing* about it...yea
In a hole in the ground there lived a cruiser... no srsly they are in that hole and they will stay there for the foreseeable future no matter waht the community thinks. Sad but true.
Ok I agree the WWII analogy may be bad but what I was trying to get at was the weakness of the weapons. I know that Cruisers were also built for exploration and sci uses but they still had massive guns. The beams in STO deal about half the damage as a cannon. Now I also understand the whole beam is drawn out where cannon is one shot but cruisers are huge! There beams should be much more powerful than they are. Huge warp core means much more power to all systems and also allows phasers to be made much larger.
And even with Starfleet in exploration and sci, the cruiser was still designed to be a dreadnaught in combat.
Huge warp core means much more power to all systems and also allows phasers to be made much larger.
Not necessarily. Just because you can generate an ungodly amount of power doesn't mean you can effectively, safely or efficiently channel all of that power into a particular system.
We regularly heard captains like Picard order power to be rerouted from many systems, including life support, to specific systems like the Impulse Engines. I agree that the size of, say, a Sovereign warp core, compared to that of the Defiant, should warrant some noticeable effect in game. In theory a cruiser should have the least power level worries of any ship in the game. In reality (largely down to beam arrays, a necessity of weapons power and lacklustre engi innates) it has the worst.
Comments
I think there are two main issues going on.
1. Cruiser/Sci Vessels being obsolete compared to escorts. In many cases, yes. What really matters in STO? Elite STF missions. How many of those involve ships that actually fight back for a majority of the run? One, Hive. Look at Khitomer... one Tac cube at the start for everyone to pile on damage to. Then a bunch of probes that -don't shoot back-. The occasional cube from popping transformers, but it's a normal cube so basically it's as easy to kill as a sphere and it barely attacks. A tac/escort can kill it in 15-20 seconds if they use their buffs right, only getting hit once or twice. Other than that, nothing fights back until a gateway pops and Spheres spawn at the other side, but then it doesn't really matter because there is 2-3 spheres and all 5 players are there within seconds. No matter what you fly, if you outnumber them that much, it doesn't matter, but tac/escort still kills them the fastest. Same with Infected. A couple enemy ships at the start, then one ship that all 5 people blow up in seconds, then some generators that don't fight back, as well as a string of probes that don't fight back until the transformer is down. The main problem with all of this is that there is no give and take with combat. Who needs to tank/survive when you don't get shot at... and when you do, your team outnumbers the enemy massively and dps is still king. However, in Hive, I feel like Eng and Sci are very useful in Cruisers/Sci Vessels. I use an Atrox with 2 sets of Advanced Stalker Fighters(spamming Antiproton Sweep), Omega Space Set(Tetryon Glider), Polarized Tetryon Beam Arrayx5(4x the proc rate of other Tetryon weapons) and the Kinetic Cutting Beam. I maxed Flow Capacitors and I have Tachyon Beam III and some other anti-shield abilities. If you ever want to see the Borg Queen be at 90% Hull when all her facing shields hit 0, that's how you do it. 1-2 minute's per Unimatrix vessel because it has no shields? Yep. Even tactical cubes drop because they have no shields, but a tac/escort is still needed to do the hull damage directly once shields are down. In the other STF missions though, most of the targets have no shields, so most debuffs do nothing, it's all about raw DPS. I feel like having more back and forth combat in the STF missions can make support/tanky ships more useful, instead of just DPS DPS DPS. This sort of leads me to problem #2...
2. Ships are too close, stat wise. I know the boff layout and consoles changes things quite a bit, but when you consider how much diminishing returns there are on consoles, it isn't as drastic as you may think. Another part of this problem is Hull. It is safe to assume that Hull is the amount of meat the ship has... how beefy it is... Look at the size of an escort compared to an Odyssey. I'd say the Odyssey is at least 15 times more mass than an escort. Keep in mind, it isn't just the length of the ship that matters, the Odyssey is much wider and full of important stuffs I'm sure. The average Odyssey I see is ~57k hull. The average escort i see is ~43k. To me, that doesn't make any sense. Tanks aren't as useful because their hull is only ~30% more than an escort, even though some are ~1500% larger, in this case. Is an escort the best tank? Of course not, but when you balance damage vs tankyness increase, it usually doesn't pay off. I'm not saying cruisers are bad for dps, in fact I use a Fleet Advanced Heavy Cruiser Retrofit on my Tac and I think it's great, however, the DPS just doesn't compare to an escort. What can help with this? Maybe giving cruisers a hull boost would be a way, but I think a better way would be to lower the hull of escorts. Now, I know ~80% of the playerbase just clicked the little X to close this page, but it makes sense to lower their hull. However, a straight up nerf is -never- the right way to go. There has to be a balance for any change in a game. Lowering hull is just one thing to make the ships more differentiated, but giving escorts a boost to defense(evasion) would make them more of the hit-and-run class they are supposed to be. To make the ships more unique in their own way, there could be a boost to skills. For example, based on the tier of the ship, add a bonus to -all- tac skills in the tree for tac captains in escort ships. Add a bonus to -all- engineer abilities for eng captains in a cruiser. If you didn't see this one coming, prepare to have your mind blown... Add a bonus to -all- science abilities when a science captain is in a Science Vessel.
In the end, giving probes in Khitomer/Infected the ability to fire back, even if it's not crazy damage like a sphere/cube, would mean you can't just sit there and press spacebar whenever a probe gets near. You would need to have a bit of defensive abilities, instead of just pure dps. Lowering escort's hull and raising their defense means they won't just try to facetank everything with their DHC. Constantly moving around and finding open spots would mean they would get hit less often, as it should be... instead of having them be almost as tanky as a cruiser. Stat bonuses for captains using their matching ship makes for a more defined class system. It would mean a Tac would not have a better GW3 than a Sci, but they could use it just as well as they can today. Most of this isn't nerfs, it's buffs, in an attempt at making the other ships more viable. I think it goes without saying that the game is very DPS based. I think these options here would add more value to the other methods and I believe it goes along with what the thread is about.
The Vesta is an Assualt Cruiser more precisely and Aux cannons are a joke. That is NOT what makes it a DPS boat. What makes it a DPS boat is being able to equip normal DHC's and its Quantum Focus beam which is brutal if you are a tactical captain flying the thing.
Sci has been nerfed extremely hard... It barely serves any function at this point as you say. The only good Sci skills are healing skills. I used to fly the Multi-Vector because its Lt. Com. Sci BOFF made it incredibly powerful compared to other Escorts. These days I prefer the Advanced Escort BOFF layout because that high level Sci BOFF is worthless compared to more Tactical Abilities. It seems only the Klingons can do anything very good with Sci, which is Power Drain setups, and only if you buy the right things.
It is truly sad just how "Hulk SMASH!" the game has become...
Unfortunately, fun != effective. STO fell into the DPS trap a while ago. As another posted earlier, can you play the game in a cruiser or science ship? Yes. But can you have an easier, faster, all around more effective experience in an escort? Abso-fragging-lutely darnit.
I like the idea of making escorts somewhat reliant on the presence of cruisers or scis. Either that or a buff of cruisers (beams) and a serious de-nerfing of sci powers.
The doors, Mister Scott!
PWE has decided, based on their analysis, that 'scort pewpew being the preferred min/maxer boat and tailoring the skills/builds/equipment/ships that way gives them the best opportunity to monetize.
If they are right...and it's likely they are...that there is a big enough majority in the "You can has cash, just give me moar pewpewpew!" to create a clear profit path that is higher than the rest, don't expect any changes to the strategy.
I may be cynical about it, but I also get that PWE's only business is business. If they could turn more profit making toasters, they would.
e.g
The exotic damage that sci abilities did. The debuf as it was
The EPS benefit for cruisers.
Remove the 10% defend bonus for escorts (see page 1 of thread).
Revamp and change some skills, eg Attack Patterns move to the last tier of skills (I wonder who had the idea that Threat Control is tier 4 skill at tactical tree. Give the man a prize.:eek:)
I guarantee that there will be a riot.
As to if sci ships and cruisers are still viable, yes and no. They have lost 50% of the benefits that they had.
I hope that someone in the development and analysis team at some time will make something about it.
As for those that say that I spent a lot of money on my escort and you should do the same, relax most of us have an escort, spend the same amount as you, we have a cruiser for the same toon spent 2 times the money you spend, and yes we have a science ship again for the same toon, we spend 3 times the amount of money. This comment is not directed to anyone but to the argument that I see in the threads which implies that only escort captains spent money (EC, Dil, $).
Personally I refuse to fly my escort and also play with my Tac captain. I will use an escort when it will a challenge.
P.S. :rolleyes: I wish I could use my Intrepid class instead of buying the Vesta line. Even if I had to pay the same amount I would do it, provided that the sci abilities where as it used to be.
KDF Eng: Boreas I.K.S. Demonon Nemesis {Fleet: HoS}
Rom Sci: Crius I.R.W. Noctem Aeternus {Fleet: LoS}
Fed Tac: Kronos U.S.S. Xibalba, I.S.S. Theogonia{Fleet: HSF}
Ships are as only as good as their captains. DPS isn't a function of the weapons, it's a function of the build and the person who uses it. Make no mistake, a skilled captain is deadly regardless of the the ship or weapons used.
Not too long ago, someone took the time to explain how to use my boff skills effectively. My dps more than doubled. And that's as it should be. Yes, it sucks when changes impact your build. Get over it.
If you're not grasping that that game is more than an arbitrary dps value, then either you're in the wrong MMO. or you fixate on PvP way too much.
My two bits.
Admiral Thrax
I would have answered Exploration. You opened that door when you relegated Science to some non-existant game mechanic based on research.
At least in this case "exploration" exists in the game.
If I wasn't hurting myself more than helping I would fly my LRSVR I bought back before the game went f2p and I was still sorta new.
I don't understand why all sci abilities that do damage do kinetic damage. I don't understand why spatial anomalies do the same type of damage as my lousiville slugger, maybe I would be better off trying to beat a enemy ship with a bat as opposed to sci abilities...probably does comparable damage to a GWIII.
Why should I have to buy a Vesta in order to do some decent damage in a SCI ship? I'm not saying I should be able to do as much damage as a Escort as many others are saying, but why should I struggle to compete?
Science captains in science ships are not supposed to do damage, they are supposed to do things like drain power, drop shields, disable engines, remove buffs, et cetera. By disabling the enemy and making him vulnerable they even the odds. The problem is, things such as shields, healing, and DPS have been buffed so much and science abilities have been nerfed so much that science ships have transformed from a fragile ship with good shields into a build that can really only be useful as a shield tank or with DPS gimmicks such as the Vesta.
If a science captain with 125 auxiliary power and skills in graviton generators throws out a gravity well, it should take a captain with 125 engine power to escape it. They should not just be able to casually waltz away at 1/4th engine power, but like all science abilities, it has been nerfed into oblivion.
USS WARRIOR NCC 1720 Commanding Officer
Star Trek Gamers
That's the only reason my science and engineering captains and ships don't take those two abilities, you cannot redistribute your shields enough manually to make up for the insane damage large targets in ESTF can do, so you need tactical team. Which clashes with cool down on other team abilities.
Mind my vesta heals an escort fully with HE2 and TSS2 but they have 30s GCD, believe me I would love to replace it with a 15s science team but the problem is no escort has ever used tactical team on anyone but themselves except the few intelligent ones doing star base blockade. So the few times I have been healing the team (with ST3)when mobs finally go after me I have to run away as no-one helps the healer when they need help.
My cruiser can make Donatra a breeze by keeping aggro but I have one fleet member that draws so much aggro that even with 84 points in threat control, APD and 2 delta taunt duty officers he somehow draws it again 10s after delta is finished.
Also to the people that say that science skills are useful, yes in PvP they can be but power insulators destroy all drain from players with just 3-6 points in them.
PvE it's a different story, the only good science abilities that don't heal are tractor beam repulsors, tykens rift and gravity well. Energy siphon is laughable at best (27 drain at max aux, polaron weapons do more), tachyon beam...drains less than an escorts cannons will deal in damage to the shields. Tractor beam, can be ok but do you really only need to stop ONE target while repulsors can push multiple targets away? Charged particle bust is just as laughable as tachyon beam, photonic shock wave can be good if you stack attack pattern beta, attack pattern alpha, fire on my mark etc but that's it and an escort would do it better, quicker and not need captain abilities.
Feedback pulse does sweet FA to the Borg. Gravity well, I've seen probes completely ignore it with over 100 points in graviton generators and max aux. Granted its becoming rarer to see it but it is strange to see one just tootle off to the portal ignoring it. Tykens can shut things down hard and is amazing when used on bosses. Only boss it's a problem on is Donatra and before you start saying that is a reason to use tractor beam, it isn't as she cloaks at 5km. Repulsers has saved the bacon on so many occasions it should probably get a lifetime achievement award.
Tactical abilities are much more useful when used on the weapons that benefit them. Engineering I still think could do with a look at to help them stand out a bit more and they certainly need some abilities buffed. I'm not saying nerf tactical, just make the other classes and ships able to compete in PvE gameplay at a considerable level.
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
So you think its completely fair and makes sense that all sci abilities do kinetic damage? I never said they should do a lot of dps but they do none right now.
So your saying I should just float there, waiting for my chance to grav well those probes! If the escorts kill them before I'm needed I should just sit around and do nothing huh? Are sci ships to kill with just there weapons when they solo?
My Engineer does 5800 DPS in a Vesta (Sci Vessel) while tanking. (Peregrine Fighters let you 20% more Damge)
My Tac in a Cardassian Galor does 6000 DPS. Awesome Cruiser with 2 Torps, 5 Spiralwave and 1 Mine.
My Sci in a Fleet Sience Vessel do 4000 DPS on this Map. (4 Beams + 2 Quantums) But the main fact is that the supported Tac can do over 8000 DPS with sensor analysis in STF. This makes 1 Sci f?r debuffing, 1 Engineer for Tanking and 3 Tac to a nearly imbalanced Game.
In Fact that mean with 3 TAC a Sci can do over 10000 DPS in 1 Game. He does 4000 DPS and boosting the others with nearly 6000 DPS.
That the Trick how you can beat infected in 6 Minutes.
If we take a look to the 20 Player Starbase Fleet Defense. My engineer was in the DPS (4700 on this map) Range the 4 th. (With mostly Tacs in this game). Our DPS average was about 1800 DPS. We got all Building on 100% and got 127 Fleetmarks.
No imaging how low the DPS of the others muss be to Fail this Map. I think it musst be under 1000 DPS.
The game and the Classes are so good balanced that no nerf is needed. Every nerv of the Tac's is a waste of time, cause the boost given by i good Sci is awesome (~2000 DPS if you work as Team).
And for the Kumari Ship. I haven't seen a Kumari in this week, that beat the 5000 DPS. I dont think that Ship is overpowered.
Which is why I suggested ages ago that what we need is a total overhaul of science abilities focusing on uninterrupted "up time" on abilities that don't share systems. Basically you should be able to have one ability utilizing your Sensors, Deflectors, Probes, and Tractors non-stop, or nearly non-stop. This means turning on your tractor beam AND releasing a series of charged particle bursts AND jamming the enemy's targeting sensors, and doing this often enough that you can actually use it as a strategy to overcome and destroy your target.
A science ship's science abilities ARE its weapons. It needs the freedom to use them as escorts are free to use theirs.
But, of course this is all just pie in the sky daydreaming.
May be I am wrong, but as a escort's captain if I do not have always TT on my ships, I am a dead captain. It's impossible surviving under the enemy fire without TT even if a someone is healing you.
I think devs should change ST and ET...
Playing STO spamming FAW is like playing chess using always the computer's suggested moves
Too right and I think TT should be changed too, if we need such an ability that redistributes shields to always be up, just to survive, it should either be a part of each team ability or it should be an ability in each class of skills.
However my point stands that if a science vessel or cruiser, that was healing others, is being targeted and can't have tactical team up as they have been healing others (global cool down on team abilities) it should fall on escorts that are no longer being targeted to use tactical team on them.
I hear a lot of whining from escorts about a lack of healing but when it becomes their time to give back to the healers they remain conspicuously absent. If you want 15s science teams and engineering teams on your tacscort then make sure you use tactical team on others when they need it. For the record I too don't often have to use tactical team on others as I usually have aggro in my escort or the player already has TT but I have done it on rare occasions to new players.
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
I for one would much rather like to DPS using wells, shockwaves, tractor beams etc then stand behind a target hitting spacebar and a CD that in reality is just a button with a tooltip.
Damn, if you didn't figure out how boring and no-brainer this is i cant help you guys (not talkin to everyone obviously)
On a tac we have a button that says: Increases your damage by X amount and thats it, not special visual happens...nothing special rly...then hit a spacebar and thats it
Star trek online... oh star trek online, so much wasted potential, almost all of it is.
These ships were built to both take devastating damage and to deal devastating damage..
Now im not saying make cruisers god-mode ships but its just that they are not what they were in the movies or shows. Their phasers were massive and dealt huge amounts of damage and could sustain a fight for hours if need be.
Im not looking to start an argument, I just want to have ideas thrown out there for things to maby change. :S
Really, really, really bad analogy. Battleships were rendered obsolete by the introduction of the aircraft carrier, which enabled small, maneuverable and highly deadly craft to enter the battle space.
Sound familiar?
(Note: not making an argument for or against current balance points, just pointing out that asking for WWII era battleship balance is not the brightest concept when asking for a cruiser buff)
This isn't a good comparison to fighters or destroyers/frigates in Star Trek.
True, but I'd personally argue that the introduction of small, nimble, and highly destructive ships (relative to their size) built for combat was a similar paradigm shift when it came to the Fed's design philosophies and combat doctrines.
And let's face it, said change was at least in part motivated by an enemy deploying highly effective tactics centered around swarms of smaller craft that were doing disproportionately well against the Fed's cruiser heavy fleets.
In a hole in the ground there lived a cruiser... no srsly they are in that hole and they will stay there for the foreseeable future no matter waht the community thinks. Sad but true.
Starfleet is about exploration lets keep that in mind.
Then:
Escorts are built for battle by starfleet, they found out that the Borg threat and the dominion war provided enough proof for this.
cruisers where build as big moving "citys" with complete family's onboard and an transport embasodorial role
sience vessels where built for, well sience stuff. (research etc etc)
And even with Starfleet in exploration and sci, the cruiser was still designed to be a dreadnaught in combat.
Not necessarily. Just because you can generate an ungodly amount of power doesn't mean you can effectively, safely or efficiently channel all of that power into a particular system.