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Why forum posters are important
weylandjuarez
Member Posts: 0 Arc User
Hi everyone,
With all the dissent on the forums recently - the outrage over Season 7's Dilithium nerfs, the community infighting over so-called 'exploit' Foundry missions and the latest debacle over the withdrawal of Fleet Marks, I wanted to address something that comes up time and again whenever player frustration spills over and the boards erupt in angry posts.
There's always someone that brings up the argument 'forum readers are a minority of the community and forum posters are an even smaller minority'.
Whilst statistically that may be true, to accept this at face value is to accept that your voice has no power to change things.
And put simply, I don't believe that.
We're here because we're passionate about either Star Trek, or this MMO or both and we're here because we want it to be a success - we want Cryptic to make money and we want the players - all the players to enjoy living out their dreams amongst the stars.
Every action we make as individuals - in-game or in real-life has repercussions - like a stone cast into a pond, the ripples spread out and touch others, either for good or for ill.
And that's as true for those posting in these forums as anywhere else in life where we choose to communicate and share opinion.
Governments and corporations may like to think or claim that our influence is marginal because it grants them power over us to do so, but we're only powerless if we choose to believe we are.
With regards to STO, irrespective of whether a player engages with these forums or not, their in-game experience will have been shaped by them. Cryptic has no dedicated community team in-game answering questions and providing advice so when a player asks questions in-game, the knowledge shared is likely to have started right here in a debate on one of the sub-forums.
So to those of you that have given up - those that think their voice is unimportant or that no one wants to listen - your opinions are as important and valid as mine, any of your fellow posters, Dan Stahl or even the CEO of PWE - and many voices, speaking in unison have the power to change anything.
Cryptic can't take this power away from you - only you can.
With all the dissent on the forums recently - the outrage over Season 7's Dilithium nerfs, the community infighting over so-called 'exploit' Foundry missions and the latest debacle over the withdrawal of Fleet Marks, I wanted to address something that comes up time and again whenever player frustration spills over and the boards erupt in angry posts.
There's always someone that brings up the argument 'forum readers are a minority of the community and forum posters are an even smaller minority'.
Whilst statistically that may be true, to accept this at face value is to accept that your voice has no power to change things.
And put simply, I don't believe that.
We're here because we're passionate about either Star Trek, or this MMO or both and we're here because we want it to be a success - we want Cryptic to make money and we want the players - all the players to enjoy living out their dreams amongst the stars.
Every action we make as individuals - in-game or in real-life has repercussions - like a stone cast into a pond, the ripples spread out and touch others, either for good or for ill.
And that's as true for those posting in these forums as anywhere else in life where we choose to communicate and share opinion.
Governments and corporations may like to think or claim that our influence is marginal because it grants them power over us to do so, but we're only powerless if we choose to believe we are.
With regards to STO, irrespective of whether a player engages with these forums or not, their in-game experience will have been shaped by them. Cryptic has no dedicated community team in-game answering questions and providing advice so when a player asks questions in-game, the knowledge shared is likely to have started right here in a debate on one of the sub-forums.
So to those of you that have given up - those that think their voice is unimportant or that no one wants to listen - your opinions are as important and valid as mine, any of your fellow posters, Dan Stahl or even the CEO of PWE - and many voices, speaking in unison have the power to change anything.
Cryptic can't take this power away from you - only you can.
Please join our peaceful protest to help make STO a better game
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Proudly not contributing to PWE's bottom-line since October 2012
Post edited by weylandjuarez on
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But if you're coming to the forums expecting a happy fun time, might I suggest the RP forums, or something similar. Anything but the main forums.
lol! I've been here for 1130 days - I know the drill - won't *ever* stop me from trying though.
People rage because of frustration - the frustration of not having their opinions heard or taken seriously. Eventually they become disillusioned and begin to believe that their opinions don't matter.
Equally true in gaming and on forums as it is in real life.
Some may say the latest issue will die down and things will revert back to normal, however checking that thread, you will see a large amount of new people posting, so maybe this issue is bigger than some would like you to believe.
It must be really difficult for a dev to find valuable information with all the whine. Also, believe it or not, but they don't spend all their work time on the forums.
And finally, all the whine doesn't help them to feel good. You may complain about PWE or lockboxes, and it's usually fair. But people like Stalh or JamJamz do their work by passion, not because it is an easy way to have money. If it was true, they would be working for Blizzard or Steam. Imagine hearing whine constantly about your work, it's not something easy. And don't say they deserve it or something, nothing is perfect, no games, mmos, or work.
Even when they make a decision that appear stupid, I'm sure they have our best interest in mind. PWE want your money. Devs want you to have fun. See my point ?
On forums, for like 10% constructive feedback, you have 5%fanboys threads and 85% whine thread.
This forum is a barometer for STO's customer satisfaction - Cryptic would do well to pay more attention to it.
lol! QFT
Perhaps so, but when those protest threads become more frequent, more passionate and even more angry, something's up - something that needs to be taken seriously.
I've been a part of this community for a long time now, and only now do I feel that something needs to change - it's not because of the Dilithium nerfs of Season 7, it's not because of the current Fleet Mark debacle - it's because Cryptic are making more money than ever before from it's players but at the same time are less accountable for their actions than ever before.
I think that's wrong.
Things have and do change because of form posts. As much as people hated it, the great CoH ED firestorm was started by a player making the suggestion and the dev's implementing that suggestion.
There's been other cases of MMO's changing due to player feedback. So while it's true that form posters are a fairly small % of the player base, most MMO companies look at them the same as polls. The forms are representative of what the player base thinks.
For every post made, there could be 25-100 people who feel the same exact way but won't bother posting about it.
The thing people need to understand however, is not every suggestion is a good one, not every nerf is uncalled for, and not every power declared as being OP is actually too powerful. Just because someone posts something doesn't mean they are right, in fact in most cases they're not.
So yes the whining does have a purpose, it lets the dev's know how people feel about a change. But that doesn't mean they should alter their decisions because if it. I remember in very early days of CoH, a single power granted 50% defense, when it was intended to grant 5%. The power said 5%, but in the DB they had it as .50 not .05. When they fixed this, there was a huge outcry about it, people were going to quit, and the game was doomed, ect... Because they fixed a bug, if the Dev's had listened, then Smoke Grenade would of still been massively more effective then ever intended. Instead they did what they had to fix the power and make the game better, despite the form posts.
I'll take that over a dead forum.
Nothing says a game is not worth the time like a forum that has no activity (at this point, I'd say that's even true of many offline games).
Which is why it's so important to have a dialogue with your customers.
Devs infrequently drop in and out of the forums to comment on areas within their purview in an attempt to inform the players but because their areas of responsibility might be limited or perhaps there's only so much they're allowed to discuss, they frequently get misinterpreted or are met with genuine hostility from the player-base.
This is just a symptom of pent-up frustration from a group of passionate fans that have seen huge amounts of quality-of-life bugs go unaddressed since beta.
Can you blame the KDF for their apathy and hostility when you still don't know whether you'll arrive in First City or the Shipyard when you beam down to Qo'noS? When they're still unable to alter the appearance of their T4 Marauding Boff that took them months of gameplay to claim.
Productive communication between the players and the Devs has never been as haphazard and infrequent as it is now - this must change.
The "forum is a minority" argument falls apart when we are on here calling for things that affect everybody, and do not require specialized knowledge in order for it to affect you. Things like reputation gear and fleet progression costs, bugs that are disrupting normal gameplay, etc. That is something that impacts all equally, and in those cases the amount of clamor on the forums is a decent measure of how "bad" a situation is.
Outrage on the forums means people care enough about the game to want to improve it. It means that people want to play the game in the future, and that they will be in the future.
Now, I understand that sometimes opinions can get out of hand, and to tell you the truth, some posters on the STO forums get under my skin on how much they whine, and how all they do is whine. But, just because of those few very, very, very annoying people whine so much, does not mean we don't have the right (and I say right very lightly) to express our opinions.
-DJ
Exactly! In that Fleet Marks thread, there's over 2000 mostly angry posts calling for feedback from the EP as to how and when that issue is going to be addressed - so far, outside of his original post he's been silent.
Some people will get only more outraged by his silence, most likely posting unfortunate, angry comments that at least will get censored and at most will get them banned. Others will just give up in apathy.
None of them will forget this - and neither outcome is a win - for Cryptic or the players.
Awoken Dead
Now shaddup about the queues, it's a BUG
Every gaming experience I've had has suggested otherwise.
Even CiV forums were active right up until CIV released; CIV forums are nice and quiet, because CIV is a relatively dead game (it still gets decent Steam hours played, but being connected to Steam is basically required for "offline play", making that a skewed metric IMO).
So too the rest of the (online PC) gaming industry.
Heck, if anything, forums are the last bastion of communities in many MMOs. Developers have thoroughly managed to remove any real reason for being part of a guild, except in raiding content, which then subjects you to potentially some of the worst the MMO community has to offer. Fleets offer some small benefit here, but I've already seen two threads regarding Shipyard 5 access sales, which only serves to reinforce my point that community is being designed out of the genre.
I personally cringe around RPers, but I'm starting to think they're the last hope for the genre. The current trend of releasing a game expecting players to only stick around for 3-6 months before going F2P by 12 months, with box sales being the main profit motive, just doesn't cut it.
I'm an optimistic person, and I understand that every post we put on the forums doesn't get attention. However, some do. When a thread of 200 pages gets nearly 2000 posts, the devs notice it. They may not want to do anything about it, but, they notice it. And thats what we need to do. We need to get the devs to notice our problems, to acknowledge them. Eventually, something will get done. It will take time, but, it will happen.
I used to play a little MMO called Dead Frontier. Fun little game, but, only about 2000 people played it daily. Every single day, a new thread was created complaining about the problems in a game. For some time, not one dev commented on the problems. However, one day, they posted a thread, thanking everyone for the feedback, and that they would fix all the problems in the game. It took nearly 2 years for that thread to be made, the majority of the time the game was up, by the way, but, the players were noticed.
To tell you the truth, I love STO. I love Cryptic, because they made this game I love so much. I don't mind the lockboxes, or the P2W stoof, or the bugs, but what I do mind is this game staying alive.
I'm sorry to tell you this, and hesitant because most likely you won't take any heed to my word, but the devs do care. They notice, and the listen. They make the game, and enjoy making the games. The devs are not, as you may believe, payed millions of dollars to make a game. They do their job because they like making the game, and like making people happy. A dead forum is a dead playerbase. It means they have given up on trying to make the game survive, and have decided to just say "meh" and wait for the servers to be shut down. Like I said, you probably won't listen, but, then again, some people on these forums are irrational thinkers. I may be an idealist, but, as John Lennon once said, "I'm not the only one."
I'm glad you posted this
It's not mean, it's not sarcastic - but it is fatalistic.
Some people might say 'realistic' but they're only kidding themselves.
We look upon the world with a fatalistic eye because of the disappointments and the heartbreak and the injustice we've suffered and witnessed - and at some point it becomes 'safer' to expect the worst - of life and of people.
I've been there - several times in my life. It's a cage - one that gets smaller and stronger the more we believe in it, one that's reinforced by the thoughts of other, similarly fatalistic individuals.
But it's a cage we make for ourselves - and we can leave it - any time we wish to - so long as we believe our opinions count and that together we can make a difference.
I made my original post for you - and people just like you - not because I'm better than you or wiser, but because once I thought just like you.
Have a wonderful day
Every MMO that I've played has some sort of community manager who's job it is to prowl the forms, looking for feed back and getting a condensed and drama free report of the opinion of the playerbase to the Dev's and producers.
They do care, because if they don't at least attempt to give their customers what they want the game will start bleeding members which means less money. It may not be out of sense of friendship or emotional attachment to the player base. But it would take a truly monumental bonehead to not listen to what the customers are saying and at least consider their input.
Back in the days of EQ, they could get away with that, because they were quite literately the only game in town. That's not true any longer and MMO's have to work harder for the $ then they did.
I've heard more then once that game development is on the lower end of the pay scale when you talk about programers.
If a Hardcore Player will not enjoy your game, the Casual Player will hate it.
If the active Forum *minority* is not happy with your Product, then the silent majority that doesn't really care about the game will just uninstall your game and click on the next icon on the Desktop.
The "you are only a (loud) minority, you don't matter" line of thought... is finally completely absurd because... have you ever heard how TV is made?
Ever heard of those "Nielson Boxes"
A chosen minority is observed, and that minority is REPRESENTATIVE for the majority of the TV audience.
It doesn't matter what you or i watch on TV, only if you have one of those boxes your TV watching habits matter.
You think Enterprise got canceled because nobody was watching?
No! The chosen representative Nielson minority told them, instead of us all, that we are not watching enough Enterprise, and so it was canceled.
Do you really think the big TV Studios would accept the judgment of this Nielson Box company that decides for us what is good and what is bad TV if this theory with the opinion of this test study minority thing would not have been proven to be accurate?
IT CAN'T BOTH BE TRUE!
All i can say is... if i go in-game and ask around, i get the 100% same image about the Playerbases opinion as i get on the forums here.
IMHO this is all just a silly argument to silence us when the Dev's do not WANT to listen to their Customers, US!
...the good thing is, i have not heard that "loud minority" nonsense-line in a while, but that doesn't mean that they changed their opinion.
*shrug*
On a thread back at the CoX forums, our CM Zwill actually posted one of the summaries he wrote up to email to the head devs about what was going on in the thread. It was pretty formal, X amount of replies, Y amount of unique replies, what the common complaints were, something to that effect. It was pretty insightful, I wish I had it saved before everything shut down.
There's a principle most people tend to ignore, if you get angry you lose. Always. It's amazing to see how much anger can impair judgment. And how much people tend to ignore you if you show any kind of anger. As a general rule, someone passionate is always wrong.
God, lvl 60 CW. 17k.
Also works in politics. Change company to politician and customer to citizen.
Aye, right on point. What we need at these times are rational, patient people, not people who just go around spouting nonsense. I'm not that patient, so I'm not one to be talking, lol, but many, many people on these forums are patient and are rational, and we need them to speak up.
I think you make good points, and of course, you're right - once you've lost your temper you've lost the argument - but anger and frustration is something that builds over time when issues aren't getting addressed - there was no need for the outpouring of rage from the community over the Season 7 Dilithium nerfs since the Devs should have paid attention to the feedback they were getting from Tribble.
Asking people to spend their time testing your game and providing feedback and then completely disregarding all of it takes a special kind of chutzpah
People like me and the majority of players are not going to waste much time and energy moaning about a video game, if we don't like the game we'll just stop playing. The only way Cryptic is going to know why we left is by wading through forum tears; often normal-people gripes are going to mirror the gripes on the forum.
You bring up Nielsen ratings, so maybe this is a good point to mention X-fire. I don't know how taboo X-fire is here (I know mentioning it is disallowed on some gaming forums), but that just proves the point being made. Even if X-fire is marginally skewed, it's not so heavily skewed as to wholly invalidate the usage trends.
Ya, I used to care but that was last week. I used to help but realized it wasn't my job. I used to feel opinions mattered but was reminded that if they're not constructive they're in violation of the forum TOS.
I now live in fear, fear for the very existence of my forum persona. I sit quietly and play my game remembering those times I read of broken things in game were 'working as intended'.
Awoken Dead
Now shaddup about the queues, it's a BUG
I love this post
We'll carry the fight for you until you're ready to fight again
There's a flaw in this line of thinking however.
There's nothing that suggests that they didn't pay attention to the feedback on Tribble. Just because they didn't change what they were doing doesn't mean they didn't see the feedback. It's a fatal flaw in any sort of debate/argument/discussion to assume that just because someone doesn't agree with you that they either don't get it, or aren't listening.
No, is as much of an answer as Yes is.
They knew full well what people on Tribble were saying. They knew full well what peoples reaction would be fore they even posted the patch notes. They knew that people wouldn't be happy with the change. Taking away a easy reward will always make people upset, but that doesn't mean that the reward doesn't need to be changed or removed.
Pericles was pretty adamant about building that fleet. Western civilization has thoroughly enjoyed the fruits of his passions, alongside the passions of many other great figures.
Gene Rodenberry was no doubt passionate about Star Trek, much to our benefit.
I agree, but Cryptic didn't get a 'win' out of this, instead all their plans unravelled as they hastily TRIBBLE in a fix - even now, the rewards implemented for the STFs are at the same time inadequate yet also overcompensate.
(As an example, there was no need for the Dilithium rewards for completing Rep projects but the loot drops are still kind-of 'meh').
It was obvious that in Season 7 they were planning a major cut to Dilithium earnings in the game - if that's necessary to make their targets and projections then I sympathise - I really do, since I want STO and Cryptic to be a success.
A better way to meet those goals is to find a common ground with the community - as other have mentioned, there's many of us that want to give Cryptic our money, but can't in good conscience because of the way they choose to do business.