I think people aren't wrong, but harsh in thier presentation.
We live in a Capitalist society, like it or hate it, and it costs money to live, feed ones family, have nice things and stuff.
Doesn't mean he was twirling his mustche and,cackling evilly. Doesn't mean he didn't want to see the world become the paradise, free from Greed and poverity, it means he didn't live in that world.
In some ways Star Trek reminded me of Tommy Douglas' Social Gospel. Tommy preached that a New Jerusalem on earth, what he called paradise, was possible. He then went on to become the greatest Canadian (not just just my opinion) the guy that started universal healthcare amoung countless other wonderful acts.
I'm not Christian, but I do share the belief that Earth could be a Paradise, were vary close to the tech to make it so, we just need the political will and a willingness to slowly let go of Capitalist vision of the world and the idealizing of the rich and being rich as desirable.
We have to let go of this drive to keep up with the Jones, learn to focus inward on personal growth and personal evolution, and helping each other.
One suggestion is too look up Tommy Douglas' Mouseland on youtube if one wishes to know the first step. Its a funny parabe.
Also a nice step would be to stop defining people by thier job, instead defining them by there Passions. That girl at Walmart isn't simply a cashier, maybe she a Ice Skater, or a Volunteer for sick animals, or a painter, a good friend ect...
Gene had the vision, but lacked the ability to take that vision to the Political level.
Right now people are in a scarcity mind set that encourages hording. We need a mentality that encourages shares. Many in the 1% want to encourage the scarcity mentality to manipulate things to protect thier unearned privledged position and endless greed.
An example of Greed getting in the way of a better world is that research for viagra like drugs have no shortage of funding, while funding for Draco, medicine that could possibly cure almost any viral disease, from HIV to Ebola, to the common cold, struggles for funding. Some fear big pharma will use iys money to bury Draco so it never sees the light,of day as a threat to its huge exploitive profits.
An example of Greed getting in the way of a better world is that research for viagra like drugs have no shortage of funding, while funding for Draco, medicine that could possibly cure almost any viral disease, from HIV to Ebola, to the common cold, struggles for funding. Some fear big pharma will use iys money to bury Draco so it never sees the light,of day as a threat to its huge exploitive profits.
Gene had the vision, but lacked the ability to take that vision to the Political level.
He lacked the vision to take it to the PERSONAL level.
He wrote lyrics for the TOS theme. These lyrics were never used in the show and were never recorded for any official use (their first recorded performance was by Nichelle Nichols years after the series ended), and almost don't exist outside of sheet music. Except, because of those lyrics, he put himself above the actual composer on the credits and got an equal share of the royalties. It's been mentioned in the thread already, but this is not standard practice - there's only a handful of examples and most of them resulted in lawsuits which were lost.
A bit that nobody else seems to have mentioned: The original contract didn't allow for this to be done. Roddenberry deceived the composer into resigning what he said was a new copy of the same contract, but added the ability for Roddenberry to claim half the royalties on the instrumental performance by composing lyrics, and an additional quarter for any recordings made using different instruments (which he also did - most recordings made other than the original were orchestral, not theramin).
He did the same with a number of scripts and characters, too. He was worst for that during early TNG, when he ruined an attempt to create a persistent B-cast with their own storylines and characters by using script changes to lay claim to the characters involved. So the entire B-cast existed for one episode each, had less than ten lines between them, and the one who got most of those lines and was supposed to be the bridge between the A cast and B cast ended up existing only to spill coffee on Captain Picard.
These are behaviors that are normally considered unacceptable in creative industries, usually leading to lawsuits and the perpetrators frequently never work again. It killed at least one show just this season. That bears repeating: The most merchandised industries in the world, which share a history of tax and investment scams, price fixing, and anticompetitive behavior, generally find the behavior Roddenberry engaged in to make money unacceptable.
This is the sort of thing that lead to DS9 Ferengi. Most people know TNG Ferengi were Roddenberry's hamfisted parody of robber barons. What isn't as well known is that the changes made to them after Roddenberry's death were intended to make them a parody of Roddenberry himself - several laws of acquisition were even made describing things he'd done that drove writers and composers away from TOS and TNG.
It's not just the economic "vision" he didn't believe in. He constantly insisted that humans in Star Trek abandoned all forms of religion in the early 21st Century, but he also constantly fought to push through a script where the crew finds the actual, literal, Judeo-Christian God (and not have him be an alien - literal Second Coming style stuff). He pushed for that throughout TOS, it was the main idea behind Phase 2, he pushed that idea for TMP for years and for each movie after that until he almost got his way for Star Trek V. Ironically it was producers meddling with his work that changed God to Devil, Devil to Vulcan Devil, and Vulcan Devil to generic godlike alien #27.
Roddenberry is the modern Karl Marx. And not from the similarities in their visions of the future, but for the fact that, even though most of their visions could be easily incorporated into a life in contemporary society, both of them actively made themselves the thing that should be considered worst if their vision of the future would come true.
Star Trek was created for monetary gain in the first place. Do you think Gene Roddenberry decided to create it for free? Newsflash, he didn't. He did it to make money. He probably went to sleep on big piles of cash like Scrooge McDuck. If you think getting rich off of it would be something he was would poopoo that would make him an enormous hypocrite.
I have to ask if this OP is a serious question or just the match for the gasoline.
I say that because its been my experience that diehard-purist-trekbelievers will, as someone said in this thread claim Gene is spinning in his grave". Despite the join date I have, I had a different account when the game launched. I was even in the open beta. Back then I made a comment on how some canon things (that were Gene's ideas) were just plain stupid and/or boring in a storytelling perspective.
One poster told me I didn't deserve to even watch Star Trek. That was the nicest comment. I half expected to see my lawn filled with angry "Gene is the messiah" of Star Trek fans carrying pitchforks and torches.
As others have said Gene was in it for the money. Theres nothing really wrong about that. It doesn't mean he was better or worse than anyone else. He had a good idea that has provided entertainment to millions of people for decades and he got rich out of it. No problem there. But I'll be blunt....TNG and the Treks that came after it did improve once Gene's influence was gone. I won't derail this thread with how the "no money" thing is insultingly stupid, or how the "We work to better ourselves" excuse for it is even more insulting as a reason for people that like a little bit of thought in their science fiction. I'd start a thread on it but I already know what the replies would be.
At what point were the people behind Star Trek turning away money?
EDIT: Hard to imagine where this idea of a non-profit franchise comes from. I mean say a guy starts a restaurant and people love his food. Would you be outraged to learn he CHARGES for it? What if he BUYS THINGS with the money he charges for his food, would that horrify you?
The first movie is horribly boring, and the first two seasons are largely the worst parts of TNG. Once Gene let go of Star Trek, it started becoming something really good again, and something more relate-able to the audiences.
Gene didn't really "let go" of Star Trek, he died... which means I suppose you could argue he let go of everything :rolleyes:
"Why are they all fighting? They shouldn't be fighting, this is a ******n utopia. And the women need shorter skir-hey, that's a lot of cleavage you got there! Can you get more of that? Maybe something with a cross strap in front that barely hides her funbags. Yeah, like that.
No wait this can't be true I read that Gene was a "Humanist" isn't that some sort of thing with moral superiority or something?
No. A humanist simply is someone who believe morals and ethics can exist without the need of religion or a supernatural being. It has nothing to do with being morally superior, but everything to do with where that moral code comes from.
As others said, this doesn't mean that Gene didn't want to make a profit off ST and wouldn't want a cut in the money that STO generates.
Even though he believed that one day technology could create utopia, doesn't mean he lived in that world.
How would he feel? I refer you to this blog entry from a director who worked with him and had an issue during the filming of an episode because the ACTORS thought GR was over-commercializing a scene:
So, how would GR feel about the commercialization of Star Trek?
Were he still alive, I believe his most pressing concern would be:
"What, and where is my cut?"
Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012 PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
I remember when Paramount was selling full seasons of "Star Trek: TNG" for $200. rofl... If you go back to the 1990s, "Star Trek" merchandise was selling at extremely high prices. Once Paramount/CBS got a hold of the franchise, the prices on dvds and other merchandise started to fall.
Approximately six to seven years ago, I went to Best Buy to purchase "Star Trek: TNG" season one. Once I got up to the sci-fi section, I saw season one of "Stargate: SG-1" and "Star Trek: TNG" sitting together. Full season of "Stargate: SG-1" sold for $30. "Star Trek: TNG" sold for $150. I bought "Stargate: SG-1".
We use to call "Star Trek" the tv-series for super rich people. rofl...
But is Star Trek all about committing herbicide and looting there freshly fried body?
This isn't Star Trek in the form of an MMO; such a thing isn't possible without advances in Artificial Intelligence that are many decades away. This is an MMORPG based on Star Trek. It must have the play elements of the genre to be successful as an MMORPG.
You can argue all day and night about whether it *IS* successful as an MMORPG, but the fact remains; to be successful as an MMORPG, it must BE an MMORPG.
Former moderator of these forums. Lifetime sub since before launch. Been here since before public betas. Foundry author of "Franklin Drake Must Die".
Believe it. Gene was a shill, selling overpriced trek merch through Lincoln enterprises as far back as the original run of TOS.
He'd LOVE how STO's money grabbing, provided, of course, he was getting a cut of it. If he was still alive, he would've talked CBS into letting us have the ships/things we want (T5 Connie, Android as a playable "race") for a jacked up price so he could get a piece of the action.
Having an idyllic vision of the future and wanting to profit from it greatly are not mutually exclusive. The reason Gene hated the fact that he sold the IP to Paramount wasn't their misuse of it... it's the fact that he didn't make any money off it later on. He never thought the franchise would have a revival in the late 70's.
+1
He wouldn't care at all about the commercialization as long as he was getting his cut... Heck, the IDIC pendant was created solely as a marketing ploy... :rolleyes:
I remember when Paramount was selling full seasons of "Star Trek: TNG" for $200. rofl... If you go back to the 1990s, "Star Trek" merchandise was selling at extremely high prices. Once Paramount/CBS got a hold of the franchise, the prices on dvds and other merchandise started to fall.
Approximately six to seven years ago, I went to Best Buy to purchase "Star Trek: TNG" season one. Once I got up to the sci-fi section, I saw season one of "Stargate: SG-1" and "Star Trek: TNG" sitting together. Full season of "Stargate: SG-1" sold for $30. "Star Trek: TNG" sold for $150. I bought "Stargate: SG-1".
We use to call "Star Trek" the tv-series for super rich people. rofl...
Buying anything from an official website is always a sure way to get ripped off. People who don't look for a good deal aren't going to find one.
the ds9 boxset i found was on amazon, 500 pounds new, 400 used. im sure it can be found cheaper, but still.. strikes me as something thatd be cheaper in the US than in the UK.
either way i agree with the general sentiment, gene would be after his cut. who knows, when he and majel barret-rodenberry are blasted into space (again) on 2014, he maybe soon be back with a dominion armada, and a few hundred vorta lawyers!
the ds9 boxset i found was on amazon, 500 pounds new, 400 used. im sure it can be found cheaper, but still.. strikes me as something thatd be cheaper in the US than in the UK.
I'm always left with the impression that certain die-hard Trek fans in this world think Gene Roddenberry was some holy sage who had a 100% flawless vision of how things should be, wrote every single Trek story ever created, and didn't have any material interests whatsoever.
I'm always left with the impression that certain die-hard Trek fans in this world think Gene Roddenberry was some holy sage who had a 100% flawless vision of how things should be, wrote every single Trek story ever created, and didn't have any material interests whatsoever.
Nothing could be further from the truth...
:rolleyes:
Yeah, but those are the ones that think its totally rational that if you give people everything they could possibly imagine through magic technology like replicators and access to their every dream and whim with holodecks they'd still go ou and work for a living even if they don't get paid because money no longer exists.
Oh, and that families on starships are a totally plausible idea even though these starships face fantastic dangers all of the time.
It's not just the economic "vision" he didn't believe in. He constantly insisted that humans in Star Trek abandoned all forms of religion in the early 21st Century, but he also constantly fought to push through a script where the crew finds the actual, literal, Judeo-Christian God (and not have him be an alien - literal Second Coming style stuff).
I think him putting science-driven secular humanism front and center was pretty much the only positive thing he did for the franchise. But the Kirk-drop kicks-real-Jesus idea is dumb and something best left to a Garth Ennis comic.
But Roddenberry was a horn dog TV guy first and foremost and he knew how to sell fans what they wanted to hear.
the fact , that so many people are willing to pay for star trek is a good thing,
as long as the quality is right
STO has come a long way since launch,that wouldnt be possible without perfect world
i have no problems with the devs driving ferraris, as long as they do a good job
STO was heavily underfunded and underdeveloped at launch,,as most mmos are
but they listened to the fans, and made apologies when needed
and that goes a long way when keepeing the mmo crowd in line
Comments
We live in a Capitalist society, like it or hate it, and it costs money to live, feed ones family, have nice things and stuff.
Doesn't mean he was twirling his mustche and,cackling evilly. Doesn't mean he didn't want to see the world become the paradise, free from Greed and poverity, it means he didn't live in that world.
In some ways Star Trek reminded me of Tommy Douglas' Social Gospel. Tommy preached that a New Jerusalem on earth, what he called paradise, was possible. He then went on to become the greatest Canadian (not just just my opinion) the guy that started universal healthcare amoung countless other wonderful acts.
I'm not Christian, but I do share the belief that Earth could be a Paradise, were vary close to the tech to make it so, we just need the political will and a willingness to slowly let go of Capitalist vision of the world and the idealizing of the rich and being rich as desirable.
We have to let go of this drive to keep up with the Jones, learn to focus inward on personal growth and personal evolution, and helping each other.
One suggestion is too look up Tommy Douglas' Mouseland on youtube if one wishes to know the first step. Its a funny parabe.
Also a nice step would be to stop defining people by thier job, instead defining them by there Passions. That girl at Walmart isn't simply a cashier, maybe she a Ice Skater, or a Volunteer for sick animals, or a painter, a good friend ect...
Gene had the vision, but lacked the ability to take that vision to the Political level.
Right now people are in a scarcity mind set that encourages hording. We need a mentality that encourages shares. Many in the 1% want to encourage the scarcity mentality to manipulate things to protect thier unearned privledged position and endless greed.
An example of Greed getting in the way of a better world is that research for viagra like drugs have no shortage of funding, while funding for Draco, medicine that could possibly cure almost any viral disease, from HIV to Ebola, to the common cold, struggles for funding. Some fear big pharma will use iys money to bury Draco so it never sees the light,of day as a threat to its huge exploitive profits.
Are you Aetsu?
He lacked the vision to take it to the PERSONAL level.
He wrote lyrics for the TOS theme. These lyrics were never used in the show and were never recorded for any official use (their first recorded performance was by Nichelle Nichols years after the series ended), and almost don't exist outside of sheet music. Except, because of those lyrics, he put himself above the actual composer on the credits and got an equal share of the royalties. It's been mentioned in the thread already, but this is not standard practice - there's only a handful of examples and most of them resulted in lawsuits which were lost.
A bit that nobody else seems to have mentioned: The original contract didn't allow for this to be done. Roddenberry deceived the composer into resigning what he said was a new copy of the same contract, but added the ability for Roddenberry to claim half the royalties on the instrumental performance by composing lyrics, and an additional quarter for any recordings made using different instruments (which he also did - most recordings made other than the original were orchestral, not theramin).
He did the same with a number of scripts and characters, too. He was worst for that during early TNG, when he ruined an attempt to create a persistent B-cast with their own storylines and characters by using script changes to lay claim to the characters involved. So the entire B-cast existed for one episode each, had less than ten lines between them, and the one who got most of those lines and was supposed to be the bridge between the A cast and B cast ended up existing only to spill coffee on Captain Picard.
These are behaviors that are normally considered unacceptable in creative industries, usually leading to lawsuits and the perpetrators frequently never work again. It killed at least one show just this season. That bears repeating: The most merchandised industries in the world, which share a history of tax and investment scams, price fixing, and anticompetitive behavior, generally find the behavior Roddenberry engaged in to make money unacceptable.
This is the sort of thing that lead to DS9 Ferengi. Most people know TNG Ferengi were Roddenberry's hamfisted parody of robber barons. What isn't as well known is that the changes made to them after Roddenberry's death were intended to make them a parody of Roddenberry himself - several laws of acquisition were even made describing things he'd done that drove writers and composers away from TOS and TNG.
It's not just the economic "vision" he didn't believe in. He constantly insisted that humans in Star Trek abandoned all forms of religion in the early 21st Century, but he also constantly fought to push through a script where the crew finds the actual, literal, Judeo-Christian God (and not have him be an alien - literal Second Coming style stuff). He pushed for that throughout TOS, it was the main idea behind Phase 2, he pushed that idea for TMP for years and for each movie after that until he almost got his way for Star Trek V. Ironically it was producers meddling with his work that changed God to Devil, Devil to Vulcan Devil, and Vulcan Devil to generic godlike alien #27.
Roddenberry is the modern Karl Marx. And not from the similarities in their visions of the future, but for the fact that, even though most of their visions could be easily incorporated into a life in contemporary society, both of them actively made themselves the thing that should be considered worst if their vision of the future would come true.
So....are you saying that Star Trek can never be represented correctly in an mmo.
Like a Murder She Wrote mmo is bound to not be faithful to the ip?
Sign me up!!!
Star Trek was created for monetary gain in the first place. Do you think Gene Roddenberry decided to create it for free? Newsflash, he didn't. He did it to make money. He probably went to sleep on big piles of cash like Scrooge McDuck. If you think getting rich off of it would be something he was would poopoo that would make him an enormous hypocrite.
I have to ask if this OP is a serious question or just the match for the gasoline.
I say that because its been my experience that diehard-purist-trekbelievers will, as someone said in this thread claim Gene is spinning in his grave". Despite the join date I have, I had a different account when the game launched. I was even in the open beta. Back then I made a comment on how some canon things (that were Gene's ideas) were just plain stupid and/or boring in a storytelling perspective.
One poster told me I didn't deserve to even watch Star Trek. That was the nicest comment. I half expected to see my lawn filled with angry "Gene is the messiah" of Star Trek fans carrying pitchforks and torches.
As others have said Gene was in it for the money. Theres nothing really wrong about that. It doesn't mean he was better or worse than anyone else. He had a good idea that has provided entertainment to millions of people for decades and he got rich out of it. No problem there. But I'll be blunt....TNG and the Treks that came after it did improve once Gene's influence was gone. I won't derail this thread with how the "no money" thing is insultingly stupid, or how the "We work to better ourselves" excuse for it is even more insulting as a reason for people that like a little bit of thought in their science fiction. I'd start a thread on it but I already know what the replies would be.
At what point were the people behind Star Trek turning away money?
EDIT: Hard to imagine where this idea of a non-profit franchise comes from. I mean say a guy starts a restaurant and people love his food. Would you be outraged to learn he CHARGES for it? What if he BUYS THINGS with the money he charges for his food, would that horrify you?
There's pretty much no doubt in my mind he'd be thrilled by it.
"We are smart." - Grebnedlog
Member of Alliance Central Command/boq botlhra'ghom
No wait this can't be true I read that Gene was a "Humanist" isn't that some sort of thing with moral superiority or something?
Gene didn't really "let go" of Star Trek, he died... which means I suppose you could argue he let go of everything :rolleyes:
"Why are they all fighting? They shouldn't be fighting, this is a ******n utopia. And the women need shorter skir-hey, that's a lot of cleavage you got there! Can you get more of that? Maybe something with a cross strap in front that barely hides her funbags. Yeah, like that.
"Anyway, when am I getting my royalties check?"
I Support Disco | Disco is Love | Disco is Life
Sorry but my feeling is that if Mr. Roddenberry was still alive he would want his cut.
Visions can blur when the almighty dollar comes into play.
No. A humanist simply is someone who believe morals and ethics can exist without the need of religion or a supernatural being. It has nothing to do with being morally superior, but everything to do with where that moral code comes from.
As others said, this doesn't mean that Gene didn't want to make a profit off ST and wouldn't want a cut in the money that STO generates.
Even though he believed that one day technology could create utopia, doesn't mean he lived in that world.
How would he feel? I refer you to this blog entry from a director who worked with him and had an issue during the filming of an episode because the ACTORS thought GR was over-commercializing a scene:
http://ralph-senensky.blogspot.com/2010/06/is-there-in-truth-no-beauty-july-1968.html
So, how would GR feel about the commercialization of Star Trek?
Were he still alive, I believe his most pressing concern would be:
"What, and where is my cut?"
PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
Approximately six to seven years ago, I went to Best Buy to purchase "Star Trek: TNG" season one. Once I got up to the sci-fi section, I saw season one of "Stargate: SG-1" and "Star Trek: TNG" sitting together. Full season of "Stargate: SG-1" sold for $30. "Star Trek: TNG" sold for $150. I bought "Stargate: SG-1".
We use to call "Star Trek" the tv-series for super rich people. rofl...
"Star Trek" Store Link: Full Season of DS9 for $520.98
You can buy the whole "Stargate: SG-1" series for $200.
I guess somethings do not change.
This isn't Star Trek in the form of an MMO; such a thing isn't possible without advances in Artificial Intelligence that are many decades away. This is an MMORPG based on Star Trek. It must have the play elements of the genre to be successful as an MMORPG.
You can argue all day and night about whether it *IS* successful as an MMORPG, but the fact remains; to be successful as an MMORPG, it must BE an MMORPG.
He wouldn't care at all about the commercialization as long as he was getting his cut... Heck, the IDIC pendant was created solely as a marketing ploy... :rolleyes:
DS9 series 1-7 is still 500 pounds...thats a lot for a nearly 20yo tv show. thank the prophets for streaming websites..
"Star Trek" Store Link: Full Series of "Star Trek: The Next Generation" sells for $529.98
You can buy the full series of "Smallville", "Stargate: SG-1", and "Stargate: Atlantis" for less than $400.00.
TNG: $189.93
Buying anything from an official website is always a sure way to get ripped off. People who don't look for a good deal aren't going to find one.
the ds9 boxset i found was on amazon, 500 pounds new, 400 used. im sure it can be found cheaper, but still.. strikes me as something thatd be cheaper in the US than in the UK.
either way i agree with the general sentiment, gene would be after his cut. who knows, when he and majel barret-rodenberry are blasted into space (again) on 2014, he maybe soon be back with a dominion armada, and a few hundred vorta lawyers!
for every episode, series 1 to 7?
yeah ok, maybe i shoud expand my horizons beyond amazon! hotdvdboxset.co.uk looks like a bit of a bargain..
Nothing could be further from the truth...
:rolleyes:
Yeah, but those are the ones that think its totally rational that if you give people everything they could possibly imagine through magic technology like replicators and access to their every dream and whim with holodecks they'd still go ou and work for a living even if they don't get paid because money no longer exists.
Oh, and that families on starships are a totally plausible idea even though these starships face fantastic dangers all of the time.
Because Gene said so.
I think him putting science-driven secular humanism front and center was pretty much the only positive thing he did for the franchise. But the Kirk-drop kicks-real-Jesus idea is dumb and something best left to a Garth Ennis comic.
But Roddenberry was a horn dog TV guy first and foremost and he knew how to sell fans what they wanted to hear.
Are you really serious? :rolleyes:
It's not a charity its a business. If it does not make money, people lose their jobs and eventually the business shuts down. Then there is no game.
How would we know? The man is dead. Let him rest in peace.
Make money is not somthing bad or wrong, u know?
as long as the quality is right
STO has come a long way since launch,that wouldnt be possible without perfect world
i have no problems with the devs driving ferraris, as long as they do a good job
STO was heavily underfunded and underdeveloped at launch,,as most mmos are
but they listened to the fans, and made apologies when needed
and that goes a long way when keepeing the mmo crowd in line