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Borticus/Rivera: Issue with Zstore-Fleet Ship: B'rel Retro
cmdrskyfaller
Member Posts: 0 Arc User
Devs,
There is a problem with the B'rel Retrofit in the fleet ship system. Namely, its only unique and selling feature for the zstore, its enhanced cloaking device, is built-in and being given away in the fleet ship when no other zstore ship has this feature.
What then, do those that purchased the zstore version get for their purchase?
Cstore purchasers: Paid 2500 zen + 1 fleet module to upgrade (500zen) = 3k zen.
Non-cstore purchasers: Pay 2000 zen (500x4) to get the full & upgraded b'rel.
A slap in the face it seems
I would like to suggest the following:
Give the Zstore B'rel a DEVICE (not console) that will synergize with its enhanced cloak. Available only from the Zstore and transferable to the Fleet B'rel and to ANY future birds of prey that have enhanced cloak.
This device has two functions:
Passive: Removes global timer on torpedoes and mines during AMBUSH effect (post-decloak 5s window). In essence, it allows the Enhanced cloak ship to fire all torpedoes at once. This is the synergy portion with the enhanced cloak.
Active: 1 minute to re-use, 10 second duration: During the time the device is active, high yield torpedoes receive a small damage and speed bonus based on ship's weapon power level; torpedo spread attacks receive +1 target to hit with spread based on weapon power level. This is the active synergy portion of the device.
Essentially, there are four 'power ups', each based on per-30 wep power.
30: HY: +4% dmg +10% speed ; SPRD: +1 tgt
60: HY: +8% dmg +15% speed; SPRD: +2 tgt
90: HY: +12% dmg + 20% speed;SPRD: +3 tgt
120: HY: +18% dmg +25% speed;SPRD: +4 tgt
Note torp spread does not increase damage but rather only increases number of ships the spread will hit.
Since the b'rel is essentially the premier torpedo boat of the game, this device allows it to make good use of the enhanced cloak AND provides an incentive to use weapon power on the b'rel retro rather than running very high engine/aux and ignoring weapons and shields.
With this zstore exclusive device that comes with the b'rel retro, the zstore ship will remain market-able and the fleet version remains market-able. Just like the federation's coming dreadnought (cloak console), adv. escort (multi-vector), armitage (torp def. console) , etc,etc.
There is a problem with the B'rel Retrofit in the fleet ship system. Namely, its only unique and selling feature for the zstore, its enhanced cloaking device, is built-in and being given away in the fleet ship when no other zstore ship has this feature.
What then, do those that purchased the zstore version get for their purchase?
Cstore purchasers: Paid 2500 zen + 1 fleet module to upgrade (500zen) = 3k zen.
Non-cstore purchasers: Pay 2000 zen (500x4) to get the full & upgraded b'rel.
A slap in the face it seems
I would like to suggest the following:
Give the Zstore B'rel a DEVICE (not console) that will synergize with its enhanced cloak. Available only from the Zstore and transferable to the Fleet B'rel and to ANY future birds of prey that have enhanced cloak.
This device has two functions:
Passive: Removes global timer on torpedoes and mines during AMBUSH effect (post-decloak 5s window). In essence, it allows the Enhanced cloak ship to fire all torpedoes at once. This is the synergy portion with the enhanced cloak.
Active: 1 minute to re-use, 10 second duration: During the time the device is active, high yield torpedoes receive a small damage and speed bonus based on ship's weapon power level; torpedo spread attacks receive +1 target to hit with spread based on weapon power level. This is the active synergy portion of the device.
Essentially, there are four 'power ups', each based on per-30 wep power.
30: HY: +4% dmg +10% speed ; SPRD: +1 tgt
60: HY: +8% dmg +15% speed; SPRD: +2 tgt
90: HY: +12% dmg + 20% speed;SPRD: +3 tgt
120: HY: +18% dmg +25% speed;SPRD: +4 tgt
Note torp spread does not increase damage but rather only increases number of ships the spread will hit.
Since the b'rel is essentially the premier torpedo boat of the game, this device allows it to make good use of the enhanced cloak AND provides an incentive to use weapon power on the b'rel retro rather than running very high engine/aux and ignoring weapons and shields.
With this zstore exclusive device that comes with the b'rel retro, the zstore ship will remain market-able and the fleet version remains market-able. Just like the federation's coming dreadnought (cloak console), adv. escort (multi-vector), armitage (torp def. console) , etc,etc.
![http://media.tumblr.com/160cacdb395f8340dac90864182ebe16/tumblr_inline_mx9yxhItkb1qg9pkt.jpg[/SIGPIC]](http://media.tumblr.com/160cacdb395f8340dac90864182ebe16/tumblr_inline_mx9yxhItkb1qg9pkt.jpg[/SIGPIC]){kind=link}
Post edited by cmdrskyfaller on
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You're kidding right? Do you have any idea what a 3x PWO setup could do with such a device?
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If you bought it from the C-Store with Zen (as opposed to getting it with a sub/LTS VA token) then the Fleet B'rel should be available for 1 Fleet Ship Module.
If it's not, then that's a bug. PWO is Projectile Weapons Officer Doff BTW
Perhaps a special console or something for those of us who did get the C-store version would be nice but not something that is clearly OP like the above suggestion.
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
Ah thanks. I see your point.
They can just make the active ability work only during the decloak ambush bonus timer then. That would fix that problem since it only lasts for 5 seconds.
Edited original post to add that. good catch!
Bolded is exactly my point. No other ship in the game has the built in ability/console. I'm not sure how they will handle the galaxy dreadnought fleet ..no cloaking device im guessing (but the lance really is the defining feature of that ship not the crappy cloak).
In any case, by paying less zen than we paid for the b'rel cstore people would be getting the full b'rel with better stats and an extra console.
Essentially:
Cstore purchasers: Paid 2500 zen + 1 fleet module to upgrade (500zen) = 3k zen.
Non-cstore purchasers: Pay 2000 zen (500x4) to get the full & upgraded b'rel.
That is very wrong.
Even then it would be ludicrous. You're talking about putting twelve non-tricobalt torpedoes downrange in those five seconds (assuming at least two of the forward launchers procs a PWO, which with purples is a not inconceivable scenario).
I get that you're trying to balance out a c-store versus fleet ship pickle, but the ability you're proposing is absolutely not the way to go.
The exact same ability? No. But the Fleet Excelsior has the same (non-console) Transwarp capability of the C-Store version (and costs 5 Fleet Modules if you don't have the C-Store one) so there is a precedent, besides - if you're thinking of buying the Fleet Excel/B'rel you're better off buying the C-Store one (for an account unlock) and then using one Fleet Module to get the Fleet variant (it costs the same in Zen).
Of course, you could just buy the 5 Modules with EC but these are old ships, with incremental upgrades - I've had my Excel for a long time now and it was worth every penny - I wouldn't begrudge players getting the Fleet one for 25 million ECs - heck, I'd welcome more Excelsior Captains
≡/\≡
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See above.
Yes, it does - if you haven't bought the C-Store version.
The excelsior's built in ability really isn't a factor in combat though.
Twelve? You mean all 4 launchers proc'ing the doff reduction each time at least once or twice... the only timers that would get reduced to the point of firing again would be those of regular torpedoes (boff timers do not get reduced, only torp timers) since the heavy-by-default torps (harpeng/tric/bioneural/etc) have longer timers that wont get to be fired under 5 seconds...
... I don't see the problem with the launchers firing 2 buffed up torps and 2 regular torps and then 4 regular torps twice in 5 seconds. The damage from the regular torps really isn't much vs shields but would be nice, yet unbuffed, vs hulls.
Overall, it would be no different than a cannon rapid fire using 4 forward cannons...except shields drastically reduce the damage of torps.
C-Store purchase gets the standard variant for every character on the account.
Just buying the Fleet Version without owning the C-Store one gets you a per-character unlock for the same price (Its 5 FSM not 4 if you don't own the C-Store version, it's 1 if you do)).
If you have one character on the KDF then fine buy 5 FSMs. If you are like me and have five characters in the KDF then having the C-Store version gives me a substantial discount if I wanted to equip two or more characters with that ship (2000 Zen per character discount).
But its a great ability for DOFFing, earning EC in Tour, responding to Red Alerts, and doing anything that requires you to go someplace in game.
You're playing more than one top level KDF character? You're rarer than rare according to Cryptic datamining.
Then you are barely 12% of the player population.
Diplomacy gets you transwarps to lots of places, for free. And red alerts? They fill up too quick to really transwarp jump from zone to zone don't they?
Incorrect. All you would need is two procs per volley (out of a total of 12 rolls at 30% chance per volley), and Photons, Quantums and Plasma will fire on the torpedo GCD. Three procs per volley will put Transphasics and Chronitons on the GCD. Hargh's would need five procs (not at all an unreasonable occurance) to hit the GCD. Trics wouldn't hit the GCD unless you got 10 procs (unlikely, but not impossible). You're not taking into consideration the cumulative nature of PWOs, and the effect drastically increasing the number of times they get to roll.
Let me put something in perspective for you. I've critted, through shields, with basic photons for approaching 2k. That's with one torpedo console, a full loadout of tac buffs and the adapted Maco 2-piece. Swap in other torp types, additional consoles, the ambush bonus and you're looking at the capability of killing people through shields very easily.
What you're proposing is not a tenable idea, as much as my KDF toon would love to have it.
I am the 12%? LOL. I don't like to think of my self as one of the elites, I just know how to play the game and play it well.
But I see so much whining on the forums or in zone chat and I just have to wonder, does this rare 12% who don't just play Fed and don't run 3 1/2 person fleets just know how to play and everyone else doesn't? I don't have shortages of EC, Dilithum or Fleet Credits for the items I want. The fleet I belong to is finishing our last Embassy Upgrade and will soon have the T5 Shipyard fed side and is plugging away on KDF and the secondary Fed fleet, maybe being good in STO is a result of who you play and learn from; and some just don't want to play or learn from others. I've run in to people in my fleet who you couldn't beat knowledge in to with a club, they didn't stay long.
But maybe I'm thinking about it too hard.
Diplomacy is good; in fact I would say the K-7 transwarp you get early on is one of the best bonuses from DOFFing until you max level it and start earning Fleet Marks with it. However there are some out of the way areas that the Excelsior's transwarp gets you there faster namely the Alpha Quadrant sectors. Also you can max level a character and have very low Diplomatic CXP and with transwarp sector space drives now harder to get having the Transwarp anywhere button is nice.
And Red Alerts in some sectors don't fill up very quick (The Alpha Quadrant areas outside of Beta Ursae), I've been stuck in a Red Alert alone because I responded in a region that didn't have many people.
This means that Fleet B'rels and Excelsiors cost exactly the same (2500 Zen) for a single-character unlock whether you purchase the C-Store version or not, which is something that is not true for those who own the C-Store versions of any other T5 fleet ship, though the Fleet Defiant and Nebula come close (2000 Zen C-store version, 4 module Fleet version).
I see no slap in the face or anything like that. The ability to buy the B'rel at any time and use it on any KDF character is worth something. Is it as good as the Fleet version? No. Is it easier to get? Yes. You have to work harder to get the higher version of the ship. Get the standard B'rel and whenever you get in to a fleet with a tier 5 shipyard, u can get 1 fleet ship module and get the fleet version. Nothing wrong with that. As for some hypothetical magic console/device... No.
The point remains: The UNIQUE capability of the ship is being given away in the fleet version and those that have the cstore end up paying more to get the fleet version than someone who never bought the cstore version and just gets the fleet.
The cstore version needs something to make it worthy of still being purchased in the cstore. A console/device that works along the enhanced cloak is the only thing that will do it.
Ok if you only had two KDF characters you still get a great discount. With the C-Store ship to get two Fleet B'rels you will spend 3K Zen. To get it without the C-Store ship you will spend 5K Zen. You would save 2K zen on this ship. That is the cost of several T5 C-Store ships right there!
As for not being able to fly the B'rel? It's a universal ship; every boff slot can be anything you want, any character and trait build can find a use for it. I've seen projectile only B'rels (currently run one), standard cannon B'rels, Science B'rels, at one point I used one as a Bird-of-Heals (eng/sci B'rel).
Oh and having two on one character is great. A PvP and a PvE ship. One for fighting in Kerrat or the Queues and another for things like Fed Minefield, so you can rake in lots of Dilithum and loot.
I'm currently at 5 KDF characters, 4 of which occasionally fly the B'rel (2 tacs, 2 sci's. Will try my engineer in it at some point, but just need to figure out what abilities to run, first). Across those characters I run it as: trico-bomber for pve, torp boat, alpha striker, regular cannon bop, healer and a sci/cc vessel.
Once I get access to the fleet version, I'll get it for at least 1, maybe 3 of those.
I don't know. Any c-store ship I'd want to get the fleet version of, I'd make sure to have the c-store version first, as that upgrade discount makes it worth it as soon as you want it on more than 1 character.
In this case, for a single character, it's the same price too: 2000 zen for the c-store version + 1 module, or 5 modules for the fleet version only. Both equals 2500 zen. Don't get me wrong, if the c-store version gets a console or something I'll most likely use it, but so far, I'm not seeing how I'm getting disadvantaged by owning the c-store version.
i'm playing 7, with an 8th at level 45. what does that make me then?
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The defining feature of the b'rel is the projectile - enhanced cloak. Running it as cannon ship is rather silly..you're better off with a heghta free tier 4 bop for that. Sci b'rels are novelty that wears off quickly.
Character templates differ. My two kdf toons have vastly different skill sets. One is an engineer tank the other is a pure torpedo tactical. Putting the engineer to fly the b'rel means he has very little torpedo skills, lots of tank skills and that by itself means the b'rel is a waste to fly ..the skill sets do not match the ship.
In any case we go back to square one. non-cstore purchasers are receiving the b'rels enhanced cloak and better stats for less zen than cstore owning brel captains who get the fleet version. even with the discount.
If the cstore brel is given the device I suggest then all existing cstore brel owners would have nothing to complain and those who do get the fleet version would have the same incentive as any other cstore ship they are based upon...to buy it. To get the special unique ability that comes with the ship's console.
*at best* they'll make something themselves and stick it on. But most probably they'll either do nothing, or provide some quiet buff to compensate the C-store purchasers, as I very much agree is needed. The Excelsior doesn't really count in this case, because its abilities are not useable in combat, so while it has a value or weight to it greater than comparable ships, that value isn't magnified by its superiority over other vessels- transwarp has a set of built in limitations that make having the extra destinations nice, but not impressively good.
The B'rel on the other hand is defined by its enhanced battle cloak, and to say that special power is worth just an extra module is like how the fleet tactical retrofit's cloak is worth an extra modu- wait no it isn't, you can only get that from the C-store.
Fleet B'Rel = 5 Fleet Modules (2500 Zen) or 1 Fleet Module (500 Zen) if you own C-Store B'Rel
So 2500 Zen for the 5 Fleet Modules costs less than 2500 Zen for buying the C-Store B'Rel plus 1 Fleet Module? I know my math isn't the best but I fail to see where 2500 Zen costs more than 2500 Zen...
Well Sci-BoPs are the closest thing to a KDF Vesta atm.
Then don't put torpedoes on it! Use it as a tanky Eng-Scort and the B'rel becomes a more nimble version of the Heng'ta.
Where is this discount coming from? The Fleet B'rel costs 5 FSM unless you own the C-Store ship which equals the C-Store ship plus 1 FSM.
I can only suggest. I know they wont put it in. Its a KDF ship. If it was a federation ship it'd be done in a week.
The defiant fleet version does not cloak.... but it CAN equip the cloaking console from the cstore defiant.
If the b'rel enhanced cloak was a console this wouldn't be a problem. But it isnt because all birds of prey have their cloaks built in. Making enchanced cloak a console would make the b'rel rather weak as well. The only thing that can be done that will keep the b'rel cstore worthy of buying is to have some console that will work with the enhanced cloak. Again, a no-torpedo-global-timer during ambush effect is ideal for this.
using guns removes the enhanced cloak. thats all you need to consider. If you wanted to get a gun bop youd get the hohsus or fleet ningtao (or is it the fleet norgh? I forget... the one with multiple lt cmdr slots).
with less hull and shields...unless you get fleet brel (which is the whole screwed pooch point here). Makes no sense. Sure, you could, but why? Just because you have no other option but to use it like that is not a reason for saying 'look! buy this ship and its good for guns and tanking!' . Its like buying a civic to do the job of a pickup truck.
cstore brel owners: 2k zen (i think this ship used to cost 2500) + 500 for 1 module.
Non-cstore owners: 2k zen for the whole ship. Receive full benefit plus better ship for not owning cstore version.
R.I.P