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Target Subsystems
blznfun
Member Posts: 241 Arc User
Target Subsystems boff abilities need to be added to cannons as well as beams. I mean, does it really have to matter what type of energy weapon is attacking a subsystem to affect it? After all, it doesn't matter which phaser weapon you use in space, it still has a 2.5% chance to take a subsystem offline and that includes if you use cannons.
I seem to remember at one point it was an option just as long as it was energy weapons but then it was removed from cannons.
I seem to remember at one point it was an option just as long as it was energy weapons but then it was removed from cannons.
Joined: Oct/2008
Original Handle: the_orig_jean_luc_picard
Original Handle: the_orig_jean_luc_picard
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500 years in the future and we still look like schmucks when getting our ID photos taken...
I hope they do! But you already have "Fire at will" which is essentially scatter volley for beams. You have beam overload (like our cannon rapid fire) which can do more damage in one shot than my cannons can in one shot... Those abilities are the very similar. But what's my similarity when using cannons when it comes to a target subsystem? I have none.
This isn't about DPS, its about a technicality. Targeting a subsystem should not be dependent upon the type of weapon used, only the fact that it is an energy weapon.
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Original Handle: the_orig_jean_luc_picard
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Original Handle: the_orig_jean_luc_picard
That's not a very nice way to think about it.
First off, We already have a scatter volley for the beams, It's called fire at will.
Second, Hes not asking to make every beam BoFF for cannons, Hes making a logical suggestion about how cannons should be able to target subsystems too.
I use Polarized Tetryon for the 10% shield drain chance...running 4 of those while broadsiding ships drains all shields quite often hehe. ONCE in the past two days of using the subsystem targeting built into the ship has it disabled a subsystem...which just happened to been engines on a Galor class....which was stationary for about 4 seconds before taking off again.....right before i hit it with a tractor beam and grav well
Just as soon as Cannon: Overload and Cannon: Fire At Will are added.
I do actually mean that, having all four functionalities for both weapon types is very much needed.
... No, it isn't. Fire At Will targets anything your beams can hit, which is a HUGE area of space for arrays, and even with dual beams it's twice as wide a con as Scatter Volley. This equates to more targets affected, which means less damage per target. Scatter Volley can carve a corridor through a cloud of enemies, Fire At Will just pokes them all with a stick.
There's also the problem of Fire At Will amplifying the already crippling power drain of beams. Scatter Volley and Rapid Fire barely touch my power levels.
And then your power level is drained which means that beam overload doesn't actually increase your damage. It just changes a series of moderate damage pulses into a single huge damage pulse followed by some stick-poking as your weapon power recovers. Both Rapid and Scatter greatly amplify total damage output.
And I'm saying, if you want all energy weapons to have the same performance, then they need to all have the same performance. Beams are crappy. Giving them subtarget potential gives them a trick that cannons can't match. It creates a reason to use beams.
So you would be willing to spend a lieutenant-level boff slot on a subtarget ability? Have you seen what they actually do? Are you aware that the magnitude of the power drain is based on your Flow Capacitors skill, which non-science ships generally have little interest in maxing out?
The problem with that is that cannons have the bonus that they all are boosted by a single boff ability. Fire at will nor beam overload have that feature (fire at will just fires normal damage beams at more targets more times but its not buffed damage).
Subsystem should remain beam-only. If anything, the only change that ability needs is that it should have MORE places to target and it should be DIRECTIONAL.
Subsystem target:
Warp core (all power levels drop)
Bridge: boff ability timer increase or stun or reset.. a poor man's subnuke.
EPS relays: ship is unable to balance shields, transfer power or receive power bonuses from abilities like emg power or battery based abilities.
Sensors: Screen becomes full of static, ship unable to target.
Directional: By this I mean that some subsystems should only be able to be hit when the shot comes from a certain direction. For example, hitting the engines from the front is just stupid.
To make it fun and interactive, the subsystem attack should highlight with swirly-target-circles (as it used to long ago) where the subsystem is located on the hull and only a shot that comes from the side of the ship that system is in will hit it. Aka, engines from rear, EPS relays from the right side of the ship... etc.
"Aye-aye, sir," the Tactical/Operations Officer replies.
Buttons pushed. Weapons fires. Beams, cannons, torps, pretty much anything but mines. Doesn't matter if it's a shuttle or a battleship - the scenario above is played out the same.
It's a called shot. It should have reduced accuracy (for being a called shot) and have the chance to take out the particular subsystem (for being a called shot). No drain - just a chance to offline the subsystem for a period longer than some random phaser proc...offset of course by the ridiculous stacking of five Human BOFFs doing their subsystem repair thing.
Would this mean removing it from Science Vessels and it just being the Tac ability? Pretty much...besides, it makes no sense that Science Vessels have it as an innate ship ability anyway. Subsystem Targeting is not some Sci voodoo magic - it's just a weapon attack - just a Tac thing...
Considering how badly TS:X needs a revamp, I don't see a problem with doing it wholesale and giving innate targeting to all ships, while giving Sci's something new (some sort of innate electronic warfare perhaps?).
Perhaps a more, on-ship focus, like, a sizable boost (50, 75, or maybe more) to one science skill, like graviton, particle, flow capacitors, etc. (Sure, 50, 75, or more sounds like alot, but considering how weak science offence and strong the resists are atm, its not really that game-shattering.)
This would only allow one kind at a time, changeable after a cooldown (maybe a few minutes,) and would allow a science ship some more power in its preferred science power tactic.
"Recalibrate the Main Deflector to boost Tachyon Particle output!" (Flow Capacitors)
Now that sounds alot more sciencey.
^ I Like This.
How did his post go from normal case to Gratuitous Abuse of Capitals Case? :eek:
Subtargeting being the domain of science ships in particular makes sense to me. The intent of targeting their subsystems is not to cause damage, it is to debuff and disable them. Which is a science thing. Science ships are the ones that would have the sensors and equipment to not only detect the enemy ship's innards, but also tune their weapons in the particular way needed to damage the innards while the shields are still up.
The basic problem with science ships is that their ability to contribute is severely hampered by the hilariously bad efficiency and performance of most science abilities, which in turn leads to the conflicting need to have high power in both Guns (since your sci doesn't do meaningful damage) and Aux (for the few sci abilities that are worth it), as well as underscoring the fact that Sensor Analysis takes way too long to be a factor in anything except boss fights.
Giving science ships free subtargeting (which is level 1 and untrained, which means they have a horrendous cooldown, for anybody that has not flown them) is a minor consolation prize next to all the areas they fail miserably at. What they really need is for science abilities in general to have faster cooldowns and bigger impacts. Everything else is just addressing the aesthetics of a burning house instead of putting out the fire.
Tactical Ability: Target Subsystems
Charges your next energy weapon attack, reducing damage but adding a random chance to disable a subsystem. The subsystems targeted are based on the enemy's facing arc, with the actual system being disabled randomly chosen among those available.
For example, shots from an enemy's rear that disable a subsystem will have a high chance of that system being their engines, with a lower chance of it being shields or auxiliary. Shots to the side of a ship with beam arrays will have a chance to disable weapons, shields or auxiliary, shots to the front can only threaten shields or weapons.
Science Ability: Drain [Subsystem] Power
Innate science ship abilities (rank I) and available for science bridge officers between ranks I and III. These abilities charge your next beam weapon attack to drain power from one of the ship's four subsystems (depending which ability you trigger).
The beam attack has reduced damage, and trades all procs for [Acc] modifiers, as the ability completely changes the weapon's power output (special beam animation). The ability fires a volley of prolonged beam shots for a total of 10 seconds, with one shot per beam per second. Each hit does reduced damage (40% of normal DPS for rank I, 50% for rank II, 60% for rank III) but also drains some amount of its base DPS as power from the targeted system (8% for rank I, 10% for rank II, 12% for rank III).
For example, firing a Mk XII beam array at rank II of the ability would drain 1.76 power per hit, or 17.6 power over the ability's duration; if fired as a broadside of six beams that would be a total of 105.6 power drained from the targeted system. This would likely be less as the enemy won't just sit around, and ought to have power insulators helping out, though this is also before applying any relevant skills to the ability. If the system is reduced to zero power it goes down, and any additional hits keep it down.
This seems much more science-y to me than somehow innately knowing how to plant accurate shots on a target, and would more reliably benefit science ships. Numbers are all as examples, but the idea here is that the science ship converts their beam banks and arrays into a form targeted feedback pulse intended to disrupt specific power systems.
Game Balance - Ship Size and Wingmates
The core Science BOff powers desperately need fixing, not space-filling with tactical skill ripoffs. Energy Syphon and Tyken's Rift already exist to for the sci-power draining role.
The point is that the abilities innate to science ships really should be something that requires science skills to get the most out of, while leaving something for the tactical bridge officers to add to beams.
You're right that maybe a power drain isn't the right way to go about it, though they would be drains focused on single systems, and based on your weapons so it's not quite the same mechanic.
An alternative might be to still leave tactical officers with the semi-random sub-system targeting I mentioned above, but give science officers more reliable, unique abilities in their tree, and as part of the innate science ship bonuses.
For example:
Overwhelm Targeting Array:
Your next beam weapon attack carries a disruptive charge of ionised particles that confound a target's sensors. Applies a -20%, -30% or -40% accuracy penalty to the target for 5 seconds (duration and penalty affected by skills).
Match Shield Frequency:
Your next beam weapon attack uses feedback to attempt to match your target's shield frequency. Inflicts a stackable +0.5%, +0.75% or +1% additional shield bleed-through to the target per-hit for 10 seconds (penalty and duration affected by skills). I can't remember how many "pulses" beam arrays fire, so the numbers may be too low, but it would aim to potentially double a target's shield bleed-through against all damage they receive, not just from you (so it differs from Directed Energy Modulation.
Navigational Interference
Your next beam weapon attack target's a ship's navigational deflector systems and impulse engines. Has a 25% chance of disabling the target's engines, a 25% chance of putting all deflector abilities into a 30 second cool-down, and a 50% chance of reducing turn-rate to zero while locking the target's speed.
Disrupt Secondary Systems
Your next beam weapon attack carries interference designed to disrupt or shut-down environmental and artificial gravity systems. Reduces crew recovery rates and increases all bridge officer cool-down times.
Game Balance - Ship Size and Wingmates
If we're gonna get down to the technical nitty-gritty, cannons are probably nowhere near as precise as directed beams....so it would make more sense for them to be general steamroller bombardment weapons than precise, tactile disablers.
I agree with this. A beam is almost instantaneous in its firing and its impact. Therefore it should be accurate enough to target actual parts of a ship. Cannon blasts have travel time. Their targets can move, therefore they should not be considered accurate enough to land that surgical strike.
Quite simply, beams are like scalpels and cannons are like machetes.
Phasers should instead do +10% additional bleedthrough damage.
This was basically what my response was gonna be. Cannons aren't weapons of precision, they're sheer power and damage-dealing. Beams are the logical choice for the precise work of 'disabling enemy subsystems'. You wouldn't use a photon torpedo to disable the enemy, you just aim for the engines or weapons with the beams. Complements Federation combat mentality quite well, really.
Using target subsystems places other weapons buff on cool down. Hit Target Subsystem: Shields and you can't use beam overload or fire at will. Make it the same for Cannon Scatter Volley and Rapid Fire. That will prevent it from breaking the game.
The Vesta is equipped with cannons yet cannot use target subsystems abilities it is equipped with, which is standard for all science ships. This is contradictory and counter intuitive.
Allow use of the science ship Subsystem Targeting X abilities for all weapons used on any given science ship. Do not allow it for the Boff skill version. It will help bring Sci ship damage up and address the lower potential for sci captains from all the past nerfs.
Player and forumite formerly known as FEELTHETHUNDER
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The Vesta comes with cannons powered by Auxiliary power level. It's meant to allow the ship to have useful firepower while performing science at the same time. Diverting full power to auxiliary to use science and the aux cannons will leave your weapon power badly depleted, making turrets offer very little damage. You don't lose much by replacing a rear mounted turret with a rear mounted beam array to swing around and sting enemies with subtarget attacks when they become available. Also the drain factor of subtargeting attacks is not dictated by your weapon power level, meaning subtargeting performance is not impacted by having full power to auxiliary.
There is no conflict of design here.
Kind of a crazy concept, I know.
"We are smart." - Grebnedlog
Member of Alliance Central Command/boq botlhra'ghom
And as for cannons doing it, thats like trying to play precision sniper with a belt-fed machinegun.
You know, that's always bugged me too. Zap-zap. Okay, I drained their weapon power. ... But they're still shooting at me, and they're still doing massive damage with torpedoes because NPCs cheat like hell with their torpedoes. What did that gain me? Zap-zap. Okay, I drained their shield power. But their shields are not disabled, and strong enemies either fall into the category of having way more hull points than shield points (Borg), or of having completely cheated shield strength that is functionally immune to everything but tacscorts (siege dreadnaughts in starbase defense).
I sometimes have a hard time detecting that subtargeting is really doing anything for me at all. I'm sure things are different in PVP. Because everything is different in PVP, and Cryptic hasn't yet realized that they're trying to build in two different directions at the same time.
That is the point at which I realised the kinds of people one has to deal with on this forum and decided not to bother.
Agreed, time cryptic answered my question of is it possible to separate damage/healing/effects of skills between PvP and PvE. I PvE and get sick of things getting nerfed by the PvP crowd.
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.