Back when the second half of Season 4 (which eventually became Season 5) was going to be delayed for six months (because of what we now know was the sale to PWE and the conversion to F2P), I said, "Well. Guess I won't play for six months, then."
And I canceled my sub and I did just that.
Some of you - including any that are still subscribed, despite PWE making it abundantly clear IMO that they'd much rather have cash shop buyers than subscribers - may wish to consider doing the same. If Cryptic is not going to give us anything until May, it's only fair to not give them any money until then.
Back when the second half of Season 4 (which eventually became Season 5) was going to be delayed for six months (because of what we now know was the sale to PWE and the conversion to F2P), I said, "Well. Guess I won't play for six months, then."
And I canceled my sub and I did just that.
Some of you - including any that are still subscribed, despite PWE making it abundantly clear IMO that they'd much rather have cash shop buyers than subscribers - may wish to consider doing the same. If Cryptic is not going to give us anything until May, it's only fair to not give them any money until then.
Conveniently, I had already done so. I took the "3 months for the price of 1" offer last year. I'm actually rather glad I cancelled now. Saves me some cash I suppose!
NPG7
I'm sure you're aware of the fact that the powers the be had promised that the system would be balanced so as not to make it too grindy on the smaller fleets?
78 pages thus far not including the first thread, i think people dont like the change there cryptic, make your fans happy if not we gonna walk.. just sayin.
Approximately two to three weeks ago, I started to spend my time on another known MMO. If Season Eight doesn't solve the endless grinding, I will just take my time on returning to "Star Trek: Online".
As my parents use to say, "there are other fish in the sea".
I will have to wait and see Season Eight's advertising and reviews.
[not_quite_serious]Hey kaz, our task masters wanted me to pass along a message, telling you to get back to the grind![/not_quite_serious]
In all seriousness, we do have a perceived shortfall of FM and a dire lack of actual team work. If the powers that be really want to encourage teamwork, then perhaps a separate IOR style mission rewarding dil and FM for running a mission as a team. I do mean any mission be it foundry, episode, pve whatever.
That might just get our fleets running again.
Olivia, watched your vid btw
Yes this is a good idea and fair to everyone, definitely for foundry or episode anyway. Might be hard to give more rewards for stuff like STF or Romulan mark missions wihtout them wanting to nerf the current rewards those give though.
How about you add a FM thing to the lockboxes that's as OP as the current dilithium gainer? I mean, that is what made me buy keys instead of just buying dilithium off the exchange for my solo fleet--now I can easily get 6 sets of 5k dilithium in minutes with the average investment of 500 zen, with the bonus of a potential ship or other good items.
5k dilithium is about 5 runs of the repeatable, so an item that grants a daily rewarding 250 FM would be fantastic and sell you some keys.
I didn't read the bazillion posts in this thread, and I'm not going to rant and rave, but I did want to state my opinion on the subject.
I am unhappy about the removal of FM from the Foundry missions. Most of the existing fleet missions reward painfully few FM for the time. I can get 60-100 or more Omega Marks playing a 15min STF, but I'm lucky to get a couple dozen from a Fleet mission, and the STF is so much more challenging and interesting (such as it is, considering all those have gotten over-played after the 1000th time). The only one that I know that comes close is the big 20-man space battle. We can get about 90-some FM if we hit all the tasks, but it's difficult to put together that many people.
I'm also annoyed by Dan's phrasing that the FM addition to he Foundry was temporary. Perhaps you all discussed it internally, that it would end with the Anniversary, but I don't recall any time-restrictions being communicated to us players at all.
Anyway, as I said, I'm disappointed. I really wish Cryptic would stop making changes with intent for future corrections. How about you make a new bridge before you burn down the old one, instead of the other way 'round. Not to mention I wish you'd quit trying to force us to play your way. We're the customers, let us play our way.
It seems only logical.
Thanks.
You can find/contact me in game as @PatricianVetinari. Playing STO since Feb 2010.
snip. I really wish Cryptic would stop making changes with intent for future corrections. How about you make a new bridge before you burn down the old one, instead of the other way 'round. Not to mention I wish you'd quit trying to force us to play your way. We're the customers, let us play our way.
^That^
Couldn't agree more, it's like the STF rewards debacle all over again...
Lost and Delirious... and Disenchanted too Apparently some forum posters have diplomatic immunity nowadays, where can I get mine?
5 FMs is basically nothing once you get up to the higher tiers (if not before), and time-wise is a fairly pointless investment. While the missions are a bit unique, they aren't the kind that most people would want to grind, or do every day.
And arguably FMs should be part of the STFs - multiplayer content in general is dealing with a fleet, even if they only band together for a short while, it is still a group effort against a larger foe, and teamwork should be rewarded.
I would propose the following changes to the fleet marks system:
1) Individual projects, or projects with specific groups, with lower fleet mark requirements; something like a shared reputation system. Less payout, but you could actually use small amounts of fleet marks immediately and see real progress. Even if this is mathematically more expensive in fleet marks than huge projects, if 2-3 (or even one) person come together and see a small amount of progress QUICKLY I think that this would help greatly.
2) Have the person playing the Foundry mission choose - FMs, or dil. And if you really want to restrict it only offer the FMs once every twenty hours or something. That way people get at least the 50 credit fix they're after.
3) Consider adding FMs to STFs - maybe make it part of the optional?
4) Make FMs an optional reward for several other missions (certain episodes perhaps?) This would actually make grinding episodic content a bit more likely and useful,.
There are a few others I may post later but can't recall/articulate right now.
Anyway, I think Cryptic is missing something big here - that FMs are somewhat difficult to get and involve usomewhat uninspired mission options. Foundry-based rewards allow for a lot more variety.
Also, while a certain amount of artificial stalling is expected - some people can mega-grind content a hundred times as fast as it can be developed and deployed - restricting resources this way only breeds frustration, and I am hard pressed to see how it serves even short-term economic interests. This also hurts the Foundry - especially if they're looking to it as a source for large amounts of episode-like content, the last thing they want to do is alienate the people they're trying to sell it to.
That said, these are just my thoughts, and I don't care all THAT much about Foundry FMs myself, but I can definitely see the concerns of those who do, so I thought I'd chime in.
Devs, if you're reading it, please keep what I've said in mind. I think that there are a lot of ways this can be worked around, but starting with the nerf bat is only going to frustrate people, especially when it's stealth-included. There are too many players for it not to be noticed by SOMEONE willing to say something, as many Internet companies have found the hard way.
Great post; great ideas and observations. Thanks!
Fleet Commander
Caprica's Revenge (...actually active since November 2010, which may one day be important to archaeologists, but not to anyone else...)
But seriously, I don't see why people in small fleets feel they would progress at the same rate as large fleets. It's simple math. If you are building a skyscrapper and have 7 people working on it vs. 500 people, don't you think the skyscapper is going to get done a lot faster with all those extra people?
.
I am so sorry, but have you actually read what people are saying.....
Virtually no-one is saying small fleets should progress as fast as large fleets. You have missed the point by a country mile.
We all know, and accept, that small fleets prgress faster. (ETA, my apologies, that should have read BIG fleets, obviously......mea culpa)
The problem is that Dstahl has made changes that handicap small fleets even more, to the point of almost not being able to function.
It is not about making small fleets capable of catching up to big fleets.....its about not punishing small fleets even more for being small.
Respectfully, what you have posted is a rather classic straw man argument.
Approximately two to three weeks ago, I started to spend my time on another known MMO. If Season Eight doesn't solve the endless grinding, I will just take my time on returning to "Star Trek: Online".
As my parents use to say, "there are other fish in the sea".
I will have to wait and see Season Eight's advertising and reviews.
Totally hear yah, ive been realy thinking about a certain other mmo thats out there for free to play and how they have added alot more content to there game, I dont mind grind it goes with any mmo, it all comes down to how you treat your fan base. Do you do things to improve the gameplay for your fans or make content thats dull and boring and not to mention repetitive.
Taking something that made the enjoyment of days while getting something in turn as fleets used the mission to group up and have fun.. and now forcing them to go to certain areas to get things.. limits my play style.. which frankly i find boring...
If your going to take something away put something in to replace it thats equally fun. Not impressed cryptic, not one bit.
As I've seen one person say earlier on in this thread, most smaller fleets have trouble trying to attract people to their fleets because the big fleets with their hundred plus people are farther along and simply want to get their hands on a fleet ship.
In my opinion, fleets were designed with the idea that they would be part of the end game progress that would take a while to complete. I think they said once that the conjectured timeline to go from tier 4 to tier 5 was around 7 months.
Remember that this is from the standpoint of what they consider the average fleet. It's similar to the way they handled dilithium earlier when they launched season 7 when looking at the average player. I think they keep an eye on what we are doing as a whole in the game and coming up with what they feel are the averages based on all of this. There's a lot of people in the game and they simply can't judge what's best for the smaller or larger fleets so they try to meet in the middle.
Heck just give everyone a Tier 5 starbase right now - - problem solved.
But seriously, I don't see why people in small fleets feel they would progress at the same rate as large fleets. It's simple math. If you are building a skyscrapper and have 7 people working on it vs. 500 people, don't you think the skyscapper is going to get done a lot faster with all those extra people?
Those in small fleets chose to be in a small fleet. Merging, recruiting, etc. is always an option - - if your major focus is to build a huge space skyscrapper. If you chose not to take these options, that is your choice too.
The alternative, as Dan clearly spelled out, was to limit those smaller fleets to smaller bases. I for one would be really peeved that regardless of how much effort or time I put in, I could ony ever get a Tier 2 starbase (and it's associated bonuses), because my fleet only had 6 people in it. Is that what the small fleets really want? To be that limited?
I don't think giving a boost to small fleets is the answer for all the reasons Dan pointed out. The only thing I can think of that has people in such a tizzy over this is the fact that larger bases give better ships for PvP. Those 2 and 3 man fleets who do PvP as a primary activity are definately going to be at a disadvantage. So maybe the answer lies in alternate way to obtain these ships - through the PvP system or an "allied" fleet agreement with a fleet who has a higher tier shipyard.
But in the end, I think the Cryptic folks have made the right decision. Let everyone have the ability to build the biggest starbase in the game, if they wish. For those that chose to build a giant skyscrapper with only a handful of people, well that is your choice.
Well people in small fleet know there not going to build there starbase at the same rate has a large fleet but if you got 10 active people they should be able to progress some but right now it would take you 2 weeks to get 1 project going that is way to slow you would die of old age before you get done.
I really don't think the problem is THAT they removed these Fleet Marks, but rather it's the sneaky way they did it. It just doesn't leave a good taste in the mouth. And then vague promises that there's more ways to earn Fleet Marks "coming soon" just sounds like back-peddling or just plain lying.
It was just handled so badly when it really didn't have to be this way. This isn't the first time that their attempt at game balencing screwed over and angered the player base, you'd really think they'd have gotten better at damage control by now.
I am so sorry, but have you actually read what people are saying.....
Virtually no-one is saying small fleets should progress as fast as large fleets. You have missed the point by a country mile.
We all know, and accept, that small fleets prgress faster. (ETA, my apologies, that should have read BIG fleets, obviously......mea culpa)
The problem is that Dstahl has made changes that handicap small fleets even more, to the point of almost not being able to function.
It is not about making small fleets capable of catching up to big fleets.....its about not punishing small fleets even more for being small.
Respectfully, what you have posted is a rather classic straw man argument.
Spot on. As a member of a small fleet, we are not asking for things to be easier. We understand full well that it's going to take things longer for small fleets... but geez, don't keep stacking the deck against us. Many of us who pay each month, are waiting to see what happens. Either it gets fixed, or it doesn't. My friends and I, don't have any issue taking our money elsewhere.
I have already seen a negative effect - increased "AFK players". I actually liked the PvE things that gave FMs, but since this patch was released, I have played them several times to only have most of the people in them do nothing or do nothing once the "you've got fleet marks" message pops up.
I actually logged off in the middle of a PvE today, because I simply got sick of the fact that I was the only player out of five that was actually doing anything.
If this keeps up, it will ruin these events unless they are done by 5 members of the same fleet - which will mean that I won't get to do them, because people in my fleet never are around to do these when I'd like to.
I have already seen a negative effect - increased "AFK players". I actually liked the PvE things that gave FMs, but since this patch was released, I have played them several times to only have most of the people in them do nothing or do nothing once the "you've got fleet marks" message pops up.
I actually logged off in the middle of a PvE today, because I simply got sick of the fact that I was the only player out of five that was actually doing anything.
If this keeps up, it will ruin these events unless they are done by 5 members of the same fleet - which will mean that I won't get to do them, because people in my fleet never are around to do these when I'd like to.
This was already a problem before and now this change has made it even worse. I just joked about AFKing in Minetrap in ESD and as expected I got some backlash. I just can't bring myself to do that in a public que.
Essentially since this change there is nothing for me to do in the game except farm dil I don't want or need and stand around in ESD, BSing with people.
No, I am not who you think I am. I am someone different. I am instead a banana.
Totally hear yah, ive been realy thinking about a certain other mmo thats out there for free to play and how they have added alot more content to there game, I dont mind grind it goes with any mmo, it all comes down to how you treat your fan base. Do you do things to improve the gameplay for your fans or make content thats dull and boring and not to mention repetitive.
During my first year on "Star Trek: Online", I spent around $200+ on the purchase of zen. I was investing into the system, for I believed Cryptic would solve these issues. "Star Trek: Online's" featured episodes are exciting and fun. If the reputation system existed, without the fleet bases and embassies, I think Cryptic would have had a lot of raving fans.
After reading through this article, I am now under the belief that Cryptic is not concerned. If Cryptic is able to reduce the grinding, while also bringing in new featured episodes, I will once again invest into the game. On the flip-side, if Cryptic continues to push fans around, I will just take my time on returning to the game.
When it comes to "Star Trek: Online's" failures, the player base has nothing to lose. Players can always shop around for another game. Free to play MMOs are becoming a dime a dozen, and "Star Trek: Online" will not be the last "Star Trek" game.
Cryptic should consider the phrase, "Do not bite the hand that feeds you", for it will be too late when the first marks are made.
Yes their silence begs the question of do they even care about us disgruntled customers that got royally shafted or not? Sadly I getting the impression that they are all PR and are unwilling for the time being to speak or do anything to change the situation.
It's friday. Expect an answer next week after the holiday. If we get one at all.
Don't hold your breath. We are STRONGLY DISAPPOINTING them by not meeting internal metrics and projections. Solution is to get new players. :P
If it was my call, I'd have turned the wrapper mission back on and also rolled back the patch that broke everything. Simple solution to simple problem.
This may be the 800th post in this thread alone. all in less than 24 hours, 99% strongly opposed.
I really think we need an answer from cryptic soon. This silence is not helpful at all.
it's too late, the damage is done. Nothing they can do now will fix that damage. Its just another in a long list of blunders from them. Even if they do revert it, it will not change the damage done.
Dan's track record speaks for itself. He wants to be judged on it, so lets do so.
knowing that you've been around for ages, Answer me this, this is NOT the first time they've misrepresented things to the player base, is it not?
I seem to recall they've done it before. On several things.
Have they said some things which were accidentally or purposefully to lead you to believe something else? Yes, for example they're trying to encourage the belief that a playable Romulan faction is coming in May -- something I very much doubt at the moment.
Misrepresented things? Sure. We were told that they would be upfront about the STF currency conversion formula and that it wouldn't be like the dilithium currency formula (in some ways it was worse -- only one week's notice on Tribble, and they never actually published the formula -- though I cracked it anyway), and that no starbase upgrade would be over 1.25 million dilithium (T3 embassy is 2 million, T4 starbase T5 shipyard/fabricator/array are each 1.9 million, and T5 starbase is 3.6 million). Or that the 50 fleet marks from IOR was going to go bye-bye after the Third Anniversary.
It's friday. Expect an answer next week after the holiday. If we get one at all.
Don't hold your breath. We are STRONGLY DISAPPOINTING them by not meeting internal metrics and projections. Solution is to get new players. :P
If it was my call, I'd have turned the wrapper mission back on and also rolled back the patch that broke everything. Simple solution to simple problem.
true. How many times today do I have to hear in ESD "I can't reslot my BOFFs!"
That and the fact that people are not getting the promised rewards from spotlight foundry missions.
No, I am not who you think I am. I am someone different. I am instead a banana.
DStahl, thank you for taking the time to write that reply and explain Cryptic's thoughts behind the Fleet system and expectations for smaller fleets. Whilst I understand the need for the system to remain a chanllenge for larger Fleets, I believe that it is currently too much investment for smaller ones, and the removal of Fleet Marks from IOR Foundry missions only serves to compound this problem. It does, however, give an opportunity to look at this whole subject with renewed vigour.
I think you already have a simple and pre-made solution to small Fleet progression which is already implemented but just needs some tweaking so that it works across the board.
Members in small Fleets have epic amounts of Fleet Credits. This is due to the huge contributions or resources that they make as individuals. I personally have over 12 million Lifetime Fleet Credits across my characters. My Fleet Admiral has over 20 million.
You added the ability to purchase Doffs for Fleet Credits, partly to assist smaller Fleets in their progression. There are also Fleet Mark bonuses that allow a character to earn 20% more Fleet Marks. These changes allow players in smaller Fleets to put these excess Fleet Credits to use and decreases the raw investment needed in their Starbase system.
Members of larger Fleets have fewer Fleet Credits (due to less individual investment and since the items purchased in Fleet Stores require significant amounts of FCs, you could say that they do not have an excess to spend for this purpose, like the members of smaller Fleets do). Therefore items that can be purchased with Credits to be put towards the Starbase would not allow larger Fleets to increase their progress in the Starbase system as much as it does for members in smaller Fleets.
However, this system is currently not perfect. I will break it down into the various requirements for Starbase and Embassy Holding missions:
Fleet Marks
Small Fleets will find it hard to get the required FM to progress. You can buy an additional +20% bonus pool, but this is very expensive for what you are buying (15,000FC for +100 @+20% rate), and it is a multiplier of what you currently earn, so if you earn few FM (like now the Foudry wrapper mission is removed), this will not increase your earning power by much. I would like to see a higher multiplier (e.g. +50%, +100% for similar price) or a raw bonus as +100FM that just awards FM without you having to 'earn' them in a mission. Think of it as a reward for your contributions in the Fleet system. These changes would have to be implemented with a wholesale increase in the amounts of FM the Fleet Missions actually reward (Red Alert, Blockades and Starbase Defense do not yield enough FM for the time needed to be invested).
Doffs
This thread outlines in more detail the issue with Fleet Credit doffs in much more detail: http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=543031
Sufficed to say, some doffs are much easier to get than others and since the actual doff requirements for the missions are so far away from the distribution of doffs that a player obtains, this does not help small Fleets much. The distribution of what you get, what is required, or introduction of more specific purchases would fix this problem
EC requirements
Although these are large, smaller fleets that wish to progress will have members that can earn enough EC to progress with the missions so this is not really an issue.
Dilithium Requirements
Unlike EC, Dilithium is a problem, since it is capped by the refining limit of 8,000 per day. Smaller Fleets cannot expect to put together the required dilithium in a reasonable ti,e (we are Level 16 - all T4 upgrades done in Starbase and Embassy T2, and have calculated that we need a further 12 million dilithium to finish both systems. This is 1,500 character days of refinement and in a Fleet of 20 or so characters is just too much.
A proposal would be to introduce bonus packs that could refined more dil in the Fleet Credit store (e.g. for 10,000 FC you could refine an additional 5,000 dilithium) but very quickly smaller Fleet members would run out of FC, and Ore.
My suggestion is a little more radical. Remove Dilithium requirements from main/provisioning missions and upgrades (leave in for featured projects) and replace with something akin to Embassy Provisions. These could be purchased for Fleet Credits OR Dilithium so that the cost remains the same. E.g. Fleet Provisions would cost 1 FC or 1 refined dilithium each, and missions that used to require X dil, would now require X fleet provisions. Smaller fleets could use FC to finance up to half of the Dilithium cost, but members in larger fleets would have better things to spend their smaller piles of FC on (gear) and it wouldn't increase their progression as much.
In summary:
1) Utilise Fleet Credits more as currency to be able to more effectively meet Starbase/Embassy contribution requirements
2) Buying Fleet Marks Bonus for Fleet Credits - bonus is too small for the price. Change to +100FM @ +50% rate for a cost of 10,000 FC. Also add raw FM boxes as +100FM for a cost of 20,000FC that don't work with multipliers. Incresae amount of FM granted in Fleet missions so these multipliers are effective.
3) Buying Doffs for Fleet Credits - balance of Medical vs Science, Sec Off vs Tactical needs to be fixed one-way or another either on the requirement side or the award/requisition side
4) Introduce some way to meet part of the dilithium requirements with Fleet Credits also, either by removing dilithium requirements entirely (and introducing a new currency that is required and can be purchased with Dil or FC) or by allowing FC to increase Dil earning/refining power (but this may imbalance overall Dil economy outside of Starbases so would need more work to define limits and amounts).
You obviously have access to all the data and statistics of what people are doing and before making any changes I do believe that you will look into how the game is being played before making further changes. The above suggestions are based on my Fleets experiences and that of others I play with.
Players obviously feel strongly about this. (Over 800 replies to this thread in a matter of hours). The original post is a great example of good communication and keeping your playerbase in the loop, and I applaud you for this. Also I agree this is not a fix that should be rushed, but time spent on looking at data and working out what is best for everyone's continuing enjoyment and the longevity of this game.
Thanks for your hard work and a great game that we love to play
If it was my call, I'd have turned the wrapper mission back on and also rolled back the patch that broke everything. Simple solution to simple problem.
As a temporary fix I would support this, done as soon as possible.
Medium term, I think many of us can agree a shake up of how FM is earned would be good.....I like the idea of beefing up the officer of the watch on the starbase and at the embassy. I also like the idea of adding FM rewards to more queued STF style missions.
These are all good ideas that would need some time to implement.
However, we need a short term fix.....otherwise I fear the damage will become irreversible.
An awful lot depends on how Cryptic responds in the next few hours.
It's friday. Expect an answer next week after the holiday. If we get one at all.
Don't hold your breath. We are STRONGLY DISAPPOINTING them by not meeting internal metrics and projections. Solution is to get new players. :P
If it was my call, I'd have turned the wrapper mission back on and also rolled back the patch that broke everything. Simple solution to simple problem.
rofl... Cryptic will have some sort of zen sale, so that everyone's anger will somehow subside. "If you give us more money, your anger will eventually go away." rofl...
What I find insulting is being called a statistic. Instead of Cryptic treating us as customers, they are publicly degrading everyone as numbers, statistics, and percentages.
Fun cannot be formulated with mathematical formulas.
Comments
And I canceled my sub and I did just that.
Some of you - including any that are still subscribed, despite PWE making it abundantly clear IMO that they'd much rather have cash shop buyers than subscribers - may wish to consider doing the same. If Cryptic is not going to give us anything until May, it's only fair to not give them any money until then.
Conveniently, I had already done so. I took the "3 months for the price of 1" offer last year. I'm actually rather glad I cancelled now. Saves me some cash I suppose!
NPG7
I'm sure you're aware of the fact that the powers the be had promised that the system would be balanced so as not to make it too grindy on the smaller fleets?
As my parents use to say, "there are other fish in the sea".
I will have to wait and see Season Eight's advertising and reviews.
Hey you! I'll be back on over the weekend at some point - needed to step away a bit this week *hugs!!*
Yes this is a good idea and fair to everyone, definitely for foundry or episode anyway. Might be hard to give more rewards for stuff like STF or Romulan mark missions wihtout them wanting to nerf the current rewards those give though.
5k dilithium is about 5 runs of the repeatable, so an item that grants a daily rewarding 250 FM would be fantastic and sell you some keys.
I am unhappy about the removal of FM from the Foundry missions. Most of the existing fleet missions reward painfully few FM for the time. I can get 60-100 or more Omega Marks playing a 15min STF, but I'm lucky to get a couple dozen from a Fleet mission, and the STF is so much more challenging and interesting (such as it is, considering all those have gotten over-played after the 1000th time). The only one that I know that comes close is the big 20-man space battle. We can get about 90-some FM if we hit all the tasks, but it's difficult to put together that many people.
I'm also annoyed by Dan's phrasing that the FM addition to he Foundry was temporary. Perhaps you all discussed it internally, that it would end with the Anniversary, but I don't recall any time-restrictions being communicated to us players at all.
Anyway, as I said, I'm disappointed. I really wish Cryptic would stop making changes with intent for future corrections. How about you make a new bridge before you burn down the old one, instead of the other way 'round. Not to mention I wish you'd quit trying to force us to play your way. We're the customers, let us play our way.
It seems only logical.
Thanks.
You can find/contact me in game as @PatricianVetinari. Playing STO since Feb 2010.
^That^
Couldn't agree more, it's like the STF rewards debacle all over again...
Apparently some forum posters have diplomatic immunity nowadays, where can I get mine? [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Great post; great ideas and observations. Thanks!
Fleet Commander
Caprica's Revenge
(...actually active since November 2010, which may one day be important to archaeologists, but not to anyone else...)
I am so sorry, but have you actually read what people are saying.....
Virtually no-one is saying small fleets should progress as fast as large fleets. You have missed the point by a country mile.
We all know, and accept, that small fleets prgress faster. (ETA, my apologies, that should have read BIG fleets, obviously......mea culpa)
The problem is that Dstahl has made changes that handicap small fleets even more, to the point of almost not being able to function.
It is not about making small fleets capable of catching up to big fleets.....its about not punishing small fleets even more for being small.
Respectfully, what you have posted is a rather classic straw man argument.
Totally hear yah, ive been realy thinking about a certain other mmo thats out there for free to play and how they have added alot more content to there game, I dont mind grind it goes with any mmo, it all comes down to how you treat your fan base. Do you do things to improve the gameplay for your fans or make content thats dull and boring and not to mention repetitive.
Taking something that made the enjoyment of days while getting something in turn as fleets used the mission to group up and have fun.. and now forcing them to go to certain areas to get things.. limits my play style.. which frankly i find boring...
If your going to take something away put something in to replace it thats equally fun. Not impressed cryptic, not one bit.
In my opinion, fleets were designed with the idea that they would be part of the end game progress that would take a while to complete. I think they said once that the conjectured timeline to go from tier 4 to tier 5 was around 7 months.
Remember that this is from the standpoint of what they consider the average fleet. It's similar to the way they handled dilithium earlier when they launched season 7 when looking at the average player. I think they keep an eye on what we are doing as a whole in the game and coming up with what they feel are the averages based on all of this. There's a lot of people in the game and they simply can't judge what's best for the smaller or larger fleets so they try to meet in the middle.
Well people in small fleet know there not going to build there starbase at the same rate has a large fleet but if you got 10 active people they should be able to progress some but right now it would take you 2 weeks to get 1 project going that is way to slow you would die of old age before you get done.
It was just handled so badly when it really didn't have to be this way. This isn't the first time that their attempt at game balencing screwed over and angered the player base, you'd really think they'd have gotten better at damage control by now.
Spot on. As a member of a small fleet, we are not asking for things to be easier. We understand full well that it's going to take things longer for small fleets... but geez, don't keep stacking the deck against us. Many of us who pay each month, are waiting to see what happens. Either it gets fixed, or it doesn't. My friends and I, don't have any issue taking our money elsewhere.
I actually logged off in the middle of a PvE today, because I simply got sick of the fact that I was the only player out of five that was actually doing anything.
If this keeps up, it will ruin these events unless they are done by 5 members of the same fleet - which will mean that I won't get to do them, because people in my fleet never are around to do these when I'd like to.
This was already a problem before and now this change has made it even worse. I just joked about AFKing in Minetrap in ESD and as expected I got some backlash. I just can't bring myself to do that in a public que.
Essentially since this change there is nothing for me to do in the game except farm dil I don't want or need and stand around in ESD, BSing with people.
After reading through this article, I am now under the belief that Cryptic is not concerned. If Cryptic is able to reduce the grinding, while also bringing in new featured episodes, I will once again invest into the game. On the flip-side, if Cryptic continues to push fans around, I will just take my time on returning to the game.
When it comes to "Star Trek: Online's" failures, the player base has nothing to lose. Players can always shop around for another game. Free to play MMOs are becoming a dime a dozen, and "Star Trek: Online" will not be the last "Star Trek" game.
Cryptic should consider the phrase, "Do not bite the hand that feeds you", for it will be too late when the first marks are made.
I really think we need an answer from cryptic soon. This silence is not helpful at all.
Don't hold your breath. We are STRONGLY DISAPPOINTING them by not meeting internal metrics and projections. Solution is to get new players. :P
If it was my call, I'd have turned the wrapper mission back on and also rolled back the patch that broke everything. Simple solution to simple problem.
it's too late, the damage is done. Nothing they can do now will fix that damage. Its just another in a long list of blunders from them. Even if they do revert it, it will not change the damage done.
Dan's track record speaks for itself. He wants to be judged on it, so lets do so.
Have they said some things which were accidentally or purposefully to lead you to believe something else? Yes, for example they're trying to encourage the belief that a playable Romulan faction is coming in May -- something I very much doubt at the moment.
Misrepresented things? Sure. We were told that they would be upfront about the STF currency conversion formula and that it wouldn't be like the dilithium currency formula (in some ways it was worse -- only one week's notice on Tribble, and they never actually published the formula -- though I cracked it anyway), and that no starbase upgrade would be over 1.25 million dilithium (T3 embassy is 2 million, T4 starbase T5 shipyard/fabricator/array are each 1.9 million, and T5 starbase is 3.6 million). Or that the 50 fleet marks from IOR was going to go bye-bye after the Third Anniversary.
My STOwiki page | Reachable in-game @PhyrexianHero
Fed Armada: Section 31 (level 730, 2700+ members)
KDF Armada: Klingon Intelligence (level 699, 2100+ members)
true. How many times today do I have to hear in ESD "I can't reslot my BOFFs!"
That and the fact that people are not getting the promised rewards from spotlight foundry missions.
Rewards were promised?
I think you already have a simple and pre-made solution to small Fleet progression which is already implemented but just needs some tweaking so that it works across the board.
Members in small Fleets have epic amounts of Fleet Credits. This is due to the huge contributions or resources that they make as individuals. I personally have over 12 million Lifetime Fleet Credits across my characters. My Fleet Admiral has over 20 million.
You added the ability to purchase Doffs for Fleet Credits, partly to assist smaller Fleets in their progression. There are also Fleet Mark bonuses that allow a character to earn 20% more Fleet Marks. These changes allow players in smaller Fleets to put these excess Fleet Credits to use and decreases the raw investment needed in their Starbase system.
Members of larger Fleets have fewer Fleet Credits (due to less individual investment and since the items purchased in Fleet Stores require significant amounts of FCs, you could say that they do not have an excess to spend for this purpose, like the members of smaller Fleets do). Therefore items that can be purchased with Credits to be put towards the Starbase would not allow larger Fleets to increase their progress in the Starbase system as much as it does for members in smaller Fleets.
However, this system is currently not perfect. I will break it down into the various requirements for Starbase and Embassy Holding missions:
Fleet Marks
Small Fleets will find it hard to get the required FM to progress. You can buy an additional +20% bonus pool, but this is very expensive for what you are buying (15,000FC for +100 @+20% rate), and it is a multiplier of what you currently earn, so if you earn few FM (like now the Foudry wrapper mission is removed), this will not increase your earning power by much. I would like to see a higher multiplier (e.g. +50%, +100% for similar price) or a raw bonus as +100FM that just awards FM without you having to 'earn' them in a mission. Think of it as a reward for your contributions in the Fleet system. These changes would have to be implemented with a wholesale increase in the amounts of FM the Fleet Missions actually reward (Red Alert, Blockades and Starbase Defense do not yield enough FM for the time needed to be invested).
Doffs
This thread outlines in more detail the issue with Fleet Credit doffs in much more detail:
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=543031
Sufficed to say, some doffs are much easier to get than others and since the actual doff requirements for the missions are so far away from the distribution of doffs that a player obtains, this does not help small Fleets much. The distribution of what you get, what is required, or introduction of more specific purchases would fix this problem
EC requirements
Although these are large, smaller fleets that wish to progress will have members that can earn enough EC to progress with the missions so this is not really an issue.
Dilithium Requirements
Unlike EC, Dilithium is a problem, since it is capped by the refining limit of 8,000 per day. Smaller Fleets cannot expect to put together the required dilithium in a reasonable ti,e (we are Level 16 - all T4 upgrades done in Starbase and Embassy T2, and have calculated that we need a further 12 million dilithium to finish both systems. This is 1,500 character days of refinement and in a Fleet of 20 or so characters is just too much.
A proposal would be to introduce bonus packs that could refined more dil in the Fleet Credit store (e.g. for 10,000 FC you could refine an additional 5,000 dilithium) but very quickly smaller Fleet members would run out of FC, and Ore.
My suggestion is a little more radical. Remove Dilithium requirements from main/provisioning missions and upgrades (leave in for featured projects) and replace with something akin to Embassy Provisions. These could be purchased for Fleet Credits OR Dilithium so that the cost remains the same. E.g. Fleet Provisions would cost 1 FC or 1 refined dilithium each, and missions that used to require X dil, would now require X fleet provisions. Smaller fleets could use FC to finance up to half of the Dilithium cost, but members in larger fleets would have better things to spend their smaller piles of FC on (gear) and it wouldn't increase their progression as much.
In summary:
1) Utilise Fleet Credits more as currency to be able to more effectively meet Starbase/Embassy contribution requirements
2) Buying Fleet Marks Bonus for Fleet Credits - bonus is too small for the price. Change to +100FM @ +50% rate for a cost of 10,000 FC. Also add raw FM boxes as +100FM for a cost of 20,000FC that don't work with multipliers. Incresae amount of FM granted in Fleet missions so these multipliers are effective.
3) Buying Doffs for Fleet Credits - balance of Medical vs Science, Sec Off vs Tactical needs to be fixed one-way or another either on the requirement side or the award/requisition side
4) Introduce some way to meet part of the dilithium requirements with Fleet Credits also, either by removing dilithium requirements entirely (and introducing a new currency that is required and can be purchased with Dil or FC) or by allowing FC to increase Dil earning/refining power (but this may imbalance overall Dil economy outside of Starbases so would need more work to define limits and amounts).
You obviously have access to all the data and statistics of what people are doing and before making any changes I do believe that you will look into how the game is being played before making further changes. The above suggestions are based on my Fleets experiences and that of others I play with.
Players obviously feel strongly about this. (Over 800 replies to this thread in a matter of hours). The original post is a great example of good communication and keeping your playerbase in the loop, and I applaud you for this. Also I agree this is not a fix that should be rushed, but time spent on looking at data and working out what is best for everyone's continuing enjoyment and the longevity of this game.
Thanks for your hard work and a great game that we love to play
...#LLAP...
According to the patch notes. Heh, what am I thinking. We actually get something promised to us? I must need my Latuda again.
As a temporary fix I would support this, done as soon as possible.
Medium term, I think many of us can agree a shake up of how FM is earned would be good.....I like the idea of beefing up the officer of the watch on the starbase and at the embassy. I also like the idea of adding FM rewards to more queued STF style missions.
These are all good ideas that would need some time to implement.
However, we need a short term fix.....otherwise I fear the damage will become irreversible.
An awful lot depends on how Cryptic responds in the next few hours.
What I find insulting is being called a statistic. Instead of Cryptic treating us as customers, they are publicly degrading everyone as numbers, statistics, and percentages.
Fun cannot be formulated with mathematical formulas.