It is all about the ratios. Once your crit chance and severity get high enough even [Dmg] mods become useful! This really is kind of a common sense type thing.
Speaking about accuracy. My torpedoes lately miss like hell. Not sure if its HYT3 specific issue, but seeing regularly 3 out of 4 torpedoes flying aways makes me always feel sad.
"Cryptic Studio’s Jack Emmert (2010): Microtransactions are the biggest bunch of nonsense. I like paying one fee and not worrying about it – like my cellphone. The world’s biggest MMO isn’t item based, even though the black market item GDP is bigger than Russia … microtransactions make me want to die.”
Now i took some time to read the whole thread and I did, twice. Either I'm tired from work, either I'm really dumb and should be worried, but in the end I haven't understood anything about where we stand now with modifiers
All things said and done, Acc modifiers work in all situations. CrtD & CrtH work in specific situations.
I personally have spent money on respec tokens like they are going out of fashion and ec that would make most cringe testing all this for the last 2 years.
My conclusion has always ended up being that you need a minimum of 2 Acc modifiers on weapons.
Now i took some time to read the whole thread and I did, twice. Either I'm tired from work, either I'm really dumb and should be worried, but in the end I haven't understood anything about where we stand now with modifiers
....Good I'm not the only one......geez I was just simply trying to find out if my last few million EC was worth it.........Having the Accuracy modifier just felt like I was doing more damage, v.s. the CritH & CritD modifiers.......
....Good I'm not the only one......geez I was just simply trying to find out if my last few million EC was worth it.........Having the Accuracy modifier just felt like I was doing more damage, v.s. the CritH & CritD modifiers.......
I can answer that question. It's actually one of the easier questions. Acc on weapons only comes in chunks of 10%. Now I know I said you could never turn that into a meaningful number without a Def value to compare it against. And that is true, you can't.
But you can certainly calculate a range of hit rates across multiple values of defense that you could expect to encounter in the game.
If you did that, you'd find that Acc was hands down the games single best stat to have on your weapons. It outperforms any other stat for all values where Acc<Def.
As the difference between Acc and Def decreases, the value of Acc increases. This means that acc is on the opposite end of a diminishing returns formula.
The miss rate is capped at 75%. Well before you approach that point the graph for hit rate begins to flatten out. You'll never see that in the game. The lowest practical hit rate in the game is about 45%.
As the miss rate approaches 0% on the other hand, the curve sharpens.
Picture a graph of all the hit rates. Imagine your sliding 3 frames linked together along that graph. Each frame represents the 10% acc mod on a wep. Inside each frame is a number. That number would represent the net gain in hit rate from that frame.
If you pushed that frame all the way over towards the left, next to 45%, that being about the worst case you could see in the game, each frame would read about 6%. If you pushed them towards the center, you would start to see those values change. From left to right you would see 6%, 6%, 7%, and as you came up against 100% you'd find 6%, 7% and 8%. It never goes bad as a stat, right up to the point where you reach 100% hit rate.
On weapons you can only get crit h in 2% chunks. You can get crit h on consoles. As long as hit rate is below 100% the acc mod will outperform the crit h. Especially if your clever enough to grab the consoles.
But once you hit 100%, or AccOverflow, that changes. Acc as a wep stat has neglible value. It doesn't convert to damage nearly as effeciently as Crit Hit or Severity.
But you can never get there by adding Acc. You can only get there by robbing defense. That was the initial intent of the game. Tacs would need an assist if they were ever to truly hammer a target. But if you have +30 Acc that would seem like thirty less defense you would need to rob correct? And that's absolutely true. 30 Acc on weps and 15 to 25% bonus accuracy on your character means your hitting at very high rates most of the time anyway. Tacs no longer need much in the way of assists to pound things senseless.
So you would balance out what you had or what your team had for slows and holds as you can calculate easily how much def those can rob, and add just enough Acc to make it work. Then you did the crit dance. Easy Peasy. And you can STILL do that now. Acc isn't a BAD stat to get. It's the best really. If you aren't a student of holds, slows, etc, you'd better get Acc.
Just it's SOOO easy to just rob ALL the defense, stomp your way into acc overflow and dump all your points into Crit H consoles, Severity, and Damage on weapons.
Events in STO seem to happen very slowly, or so fast most people can't really believe that it actually happend. But if you get DHC LOLarons all over you with compressed CRF's and you see some pretty crit strings right before you vanish, you can bet you lost engine power, your defense dropped just enough for your attacker to enjoy AccOverflow, and you get the respawn.
Because really, and like I said I don't have 1000's of samples yet, but in AccOverflow land my results don't seem to match the values that the calculations seem to return. In any case, ships die VERY fast.
Cheers and enjoy the best stat in the game while it lasts!
^ very good post. it might conflict with the thread tittle though.
if you end up dealing the majority of your damage in bursts wile you have someone's movement controlled, then anything but acc is what you want. but if your running and gunning, dog fighting and chasing, acc just works best.
True its just that the point of most of the game is to minimize the difference between your acc and thier def when attacking, and of course the other way around when being attacked. You really can't understand these stats on thier own. At least not very well. So really its proven that's there's two ways to go about this, most folks will fall somewhere in the middle. Its the most valid way to operate.
I still feel some ships suffer unduly due to this. Its far to easy to rob thier defence. If you want I'll get you a spreadsheet. Or just make one you do those anyways. The formula from BRJ is all we have.
If I understand this correctly this is the basic logic.
1: Damage without kill is pretty much worthless
2: Killing target that actively has a high bonus defense is rare
3: Removing targets high bonus defense is not very rare/difficult
4: Killing target without high bonus defense is much more likely.
5: Crit is more effective than Acc vs target without high bonus defense.
Therefore it is better to take a weapon mod that is more effective during a higher majority of your 'kill target' time or opportunity than it is to take weapon mod that is more effective during the 'cant kill target' time.
Makes perfect sense to me, now where did I put my Chrono torps and Denoobs....
^ very good post. it might conflict with the thread tittle though.
if you end up dealing the majority of your damage in bursts wile you have someone's movement controlled, then anything but acc is what you want. but if your running and gunning, dog fighting and chasing, acc just works best.
That means having all types of weapons in inventory * in all mod combinations.That is too expensive mk XII with 3 mods.
If you can afford accx3 and dont want to change weapons all the time and if you dont have accurate trait ,accx3 is good.Yes you can loose some dps (less crtH/crtD) in team pvp but you will spare that "change weapons...lets see what mod combo I need now" .All the new romulan boffs and crtH /crtD consoles from s7 will help.
*talking about escorts...I never seen cruisers dogfighting
That means having all types of weapons in inventory * in all mod combinations.That is too expensive mk XII with 3 mods.
If you can afford accx3 and dont want to change weapons all the time and if you dont have accurate trait ,accx3 is good.Yes you can loose some dps (less crtH/crtD) in team pvp but you will spare that "change weapons...lets see what mod combo I need now" .All the new romulan boffs and crtH /crtD consoles from s7 will help.
*talking about escorts...I never seen cruisers dogfighting
you just need 1 set, the kind that fits your ship. and if you haven't encountered my kdf cruisers, consider yourself lucky...
In the spirit of him/her/it taking the time to write that paragraph, I suppose I should clarify my statement:
I fly an Escort, it had DHCs w/ some combination of modifiers -don't really remember - then after staring at the weapons for an hour I had an "Aha" moment, so I went out and bought DHCs w/Acc x2 & CritH - they just felt like they hit harder. The AccOverflow is what attracted me. Coupled with all the various consoles (TacConverter, Zero Point, etc...) it seemed to be true. I should note this is just looking trough the combat tab in game, not any other program.
I just switched to DHCs w/ Acc & CritH x2 recently(admittedly because this post had me curious), and yes I seem to hit a little harder than the above, but I didn't notice any huge difference in furballs. I had to actually look at the combat tab in game just to glean that information.
At least to me, there seem to be some mixing of topics going on and what I mean is that people are talking about PvP(most everyone who has said something), and some(maybe just me) are talking about everything else(PvE, Missions, etc.....).
As in, of course a human is going have all kinds of dirty tricks to do anything to win. Whereas the closest to a human opponent I've run into(at least in space), from a computer opponent, is the obnoxious Borg Queen Diamond just because it's got all kind of abilities, and uses a lot of them, and is just a pain to grind down. I could run off into all kinds of tangents.............
To circle back, my point is/was that I was trying to understand, and hopefully confirm, my gut telling me stacking Acc yields greater dmg, specifically the Criticals. As opposed to the combinations of CritH and CritD. I understand that the defense thing adds a whole new dimension to the equation. For your run of the mill ISE, is stacking Acc x3 better than any other?
So thank you for taking the time Thissler to write the earlier answer, however if I read what has since been said since the OP, it seems like one would need Acc, just not x3.........maybe.........I dunno maybe it's me........I've read the post a third time, and this is a healthy debate, so.....next........
In the spirit of him/her/it taking the time to write that paragraph, I suppose I should clarify my statement:
I fly an Escort, it had DHCs w/ some combination of modifiers -don't really remember - then after staring at the weapons for an hour I had an "Aha" moment, so I went out and bought DHCs w/Acc x2 & CritH - they just felt like they hit harder. The AccOverflow is what attracted me. Coupled with all the various consoles (TacConverter, Zero Point, etc...) it seemed to be true. I should note this is just looking trough the combat tab in game, not any other program.
I just switched to DHCs w/ Acc & CritH x2 recently(admittedly because this post had me curious), and yes I seem to hit a little harder than the above, but I didn't notice any huge difference in furballs. I had to actually look at the combat tab in game just to glean that information.
At least to me, there seem to be some mixing of topics going on and what I mean is that people are talking about PvP(most everyone who has said something), and some(maybe just me) are talking about everything else(PvE, Missions, etc.....).
As in, of course a human is going have all kinds of dirty tricks to do anything to win. Whereas the closest to a human opponent I've run into(at least in space), from a computer opponent, is the obnoxious Borg Queen Diamond just because it's got all kind of abilities, and uses a lot of them, and is just a pain to grind down. I could run off into all kinds of tangents.............
To circle back, my point is/was that I was trying to understand, and hopefully confirm, my gut telling me stacking Acc yields greater dmg, specifically the Criticals. As opposed to the combinations of CritH and CritD. I understand that the defense thing adds a whole new dimension to the equation. For your run of the mill ISE, is stacking Acc x3 better than any other?
So thank you for taking the time Thissler to write that answer, however if I read what has since been said since the OP, it seems like one would need Acc, just not x3.........maybe.........I dunno maybe it's me........I've read the post a third time, and this is a healthy debate, so.....next........
PvE is different. You have high buffer HP targets (compared to Player ships) that have fairly low defensive boosts. Thissler is writing about timing a movement debuff (which greatly debuffs defense rating among other things) w/a high Alpha strike to quickly kill a target. In this case, burst is the goal and the time interval is under 5 seconds.
PvE can have targets which require a longer duration to eat through their buffer, some of which don't move at all. For discussions sake lets say it takes 1 minute for these targets under team FF. The targets don't usually have a TT, this means Boff abilities like APB and APD stacking may be better than APO even, since they benefit all shooters. If you're running a premade w/this in mind it would take research I haven't done to figure out if CritH, CritD, Dam, or Acc is most effective.
What's generally being debated is how much of a match a player can count on getting kills from speccing to shooting at a low defensive rating target vs speccing a build to killing a moderate to high defensively rated target. Imo, part of this depends on what the team makeup and faction is being played. KDF can focus more on the debuffed target based on the hit & run playstyle since they can better pick who and when. While a Fed is more along the times of wearing down a target (team) and high Acc helps to always pressure something. Recent passive buffs to resists/repairs have impacted this dynamic, imo for the worse.
Edit: Also, cooldown reductions have had an impact by allowing for shorter durations between spikes and repairs and debuffs. But, that derails this thread even further.
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Random Quote from Kerrat
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C&H Fed banter
Comments
I personally have spent money on respec tokens like they are going out of fashion and ec that would make most cringe testing all this for the last 2 years.
My conclusion has always ended up being that you need a minimum of 2 Acc modifiers on weapons.
Simply put, you need to hit them to damage them.
....Good I'm not the only one......geez I was just simply trying to find out if my last few million EC was worth it.........Having the Accuracy modifier just felt like I was doing more damage, v.s. the CritH & CritD modifiers.......
I can answer that question. It's actually one of the easier questions. Acc on weapons only comes in chunks of 10%. Now I know I said you could never turn that into a meaningful number without a Def value to compare it against. And that is true, you can't.
But you can certainly calculate a range of hit rates across multiple values of defense that you could expect to encounter in the game.
If you did that, you'd find that Acc was hands down the games single best stat to have on your weapons. It outperforms any other stat for all values where Acc<Def.
As the difference between Acc and Def decreases, the value of Acc increases. This means that acc is on the opposite end of a diminishing returns formula.
The miss rate is capped at 75%. Well before you approach that point the graph for hit rate begins to flatten out. You'll never see that in the game. The lowest practical hit rate in the game is about 45%.
As the miss rate approaches 0% on the other hand, the curve sharpens.
Picture a graph of all the hit rates. Imagine your sliding 3 frames linked together along that graph. Each frame represents the 10% acc mod on a wep. Inside each frame is a number. That number would represent the net gain in hit rate from that frame.
If you pushed that frame all the way over towards the left, next to 45%, that being about the worst case you could see in the game, each frame would read about 6%. If you pushed them towards the center, you would start to see those values change. From left to right you would see 6%, 6%, 7%, and as you came up against 100% you'd find 6%, 7% and 8%. It never goes bad as a stat, right up to the point where you reach 100% hit rate.
On weapons you can only get crit h in 2% chunks. You can get crit h on consoles. As long as hit rate is below 100% the acc mod will outperform the crit h. Especially if your clever enough to grab the consoles.
But once you hit 100%, or AccOverflow, that changes. Acc as a wep stat has neglible value. It doesn't convert to damage nearly as effeciently as Crit Hit or Severity.
But you can never get there by adding Acc. You can only get there by robbing defense. That was the initial intent of the game. Tacs would need an assist if they were ever to truly hammer a target. But if you have +30 Acc that would seem like thirty less defense you would need to rob correct? And that's absolutely true. 30 Acc on weps and 15 to 25% bonus accuracy on your character means your hitting at very high rates most of the time anyway. Tacs no longer need much in the way of assists to pound things senseless.
So you would balance out what you had or what your team had for slows and holds as you can calculate easily how much def those can rob, and add just enough Acc to make it work. Then you did the crit dance. Easy Peasy. And you can STILL do that now. Acc isn't a BAD stat to get. It's the best really. If you aren't a student of holds, slows, etc, you'd better get Acc.
Just it's SOOO easy to just rob ALL the defense, stomp your way into acc overflow and dump all your points into Crit H consoles, Severity, and Damage on weapons.
Events in STO seem to happen very slowly, or so fast most people can't really believe that it actually happend. But if you get DHC LOLarons all over you with compressed CRF's and you see some pretty crit strings right before you vanish, you can bet you lost engine power, your defense dropped just enough for your attacker to enjoy AccOverflow, and you get the respawn.
Because really, and like I said I don't have 1000's of samples yet, but in AccOverflow land my results don't seem to match the values that the calculations seem to return. In any case, ships die VERY fast.
Cheers and enjoy the best stat in the game while it lasts!
if you end up dealing the majority of your damage in bursts wile you have someone's movement controlled, then anything but acc is what you want. but if your running and gunning, dog fighting and chasing, acc just works best.
I still feel some ships suffer unduly due to this. Its far to easy to rob thier defence. If you want I'll get you a spreadsheet. Or just make one you do those anyways. The formula from BRJ is all we have.
Cheers mate maybe catch up with u later
1: Damage without kill is pretty much worthless
2: Killing target that actively has a high bonus defense is rare
3: Removing targets high bonus defense is not very rare/difficult
4: Killing target without high bonus defense is much more likely.
5: Crit is more effective than Acc vs target without high bonus defense.
Therefore it is better to take a weapon mod that is more effective during a higher majority of your 'kill target' time or opportunity than it is to take weapon mod that is more effective during the 'cant kill target' time.
Makes perfect sense to me, now where did I put my Chrono torps and Denoobs....
That means having all types of weapons in inventory * in all mod combinations.That is too expensive mk XII with 3 mods.
If you can afford accx3 and dont want to change weapons all the time and if you dont have accurate trait ,accx3 is good.Yes you can loose some dps (less crtH/crtD) in team pvp but you will spare that "change weapons...lets see what mod combo I need now" .All the new romulan boffs and crtH /crtD consoles from s7 will help.
*talking about escorts...I never seen cruisers dogfighting
you just need 1 set, the kind that fits your ship. and if you haven't encountered my kdf cruisers, consider yourself lucky...
Indeed. In drunk's defense, is cruisers don't dogfight so much as haul you down the nearest alley and beat you senseless with a lead pipe.
In the spirit of him/her/it taking the time to write that paragraph, I suppose I should clarify my statement:
I fly an Escort, it had DHCs w/ some combination of modifiers -don't really remember - then after staring at the weapons for an hour I had an "Aha" moment, so I went out and bought DHCs w/Acc x2 & CritH - they just felt like they hit harder. The AccOverflow is what attracted me. Coupled with all the various consoles (TacConverter, Zero Point, etc...) it seemed to be true. I should note this is just looking trough the combat tab in game, not any other program.
I just switched to DHCs w/ Acc & CritH x2 recently(admittedly because this post had me curious), and yes I seem to hit a little harder than the above, but I didn't notice any huge difference in furballs. I had to actually look at the combat tab in game just to glean that information.
At least to me, there seem to be some mixing of topics going on and what I mean is that people are talking about PvP(most everyone who has said something), and some(maybe just me) are talking about everything else(PvE, Missions, etc.....).
As in, of course a human is going have all kinds of dirty tricks to do anything to win. Whereas the closest to a human opponent I've run into(at least in space), from a computer opponent, is the obnoxious Borg Queen Diamond just because it's got all kind of abilities, and uses a lot of them, and is just a pain to grind down. I could run off into all kinds of tangents.............
To circle back, my point is/was that I was trying to understand, and hopefully confirm, my gut telling me stacking Acc yields greater dmg, specifically the Criticals. As opposed to the combinations of CritH and CritD. I understand that the defense thing adds a whole new dimension to the equation. For your run of the mill ISE, is stacking Acc x3 better than any other?
So thank you for taking the time Thissler to write the earlier answer, however if I read what has since been said since the OP, it seems like one would need Acc, just not x3.........maybe.........I dunno maybe it's me........I've read the post a third time, and this is a healthy debate, so.....next........
PvE is different. You have high buffer HP targets (compared to Player ships) that have fairly low defensive boosts. Thissler is writing about timing a movement debuff (which greatly debuffs defense rating among other things) w/a high Alpha strike to quickly kill a target. In this case, burst is the goal and the time interval is under 5 seconds.
PvE can have targets which require a longer duration to eat through their buffer, some of which don't move at all. For discussions sake lets say it takes 1 minute for these targets under team FF. The targets don't usually have a TT, this means Boff abilities like APB and APD stacking may be better than APO even, since they benefit all shooters. If you're running a premade w/this in mind it would take research I haven't done to figure out if CritH, CritD, Dam, or Acc is most effective.
What's generally being debated is how much of a match a player can count on getting kills from speccing to shooting at a low defensive rating target vs speccing a build to killing a moderate to high defensively rated target. Imo, part of this depends on what the team makeup and faction is being played. KDF can focus more on the debuffed target based on the hit & run playstyle since they can better pick who and when. While a Fed is more along the times of wearing down a target (team) and high Acc helps to always pressure something. Recent passive buffs to resists/repairs have impacted this dynamic, imo for the worse.
Edit: Also, cooldown reductions have had an impact by allowing for shorter durations between spikes and repairs and debuffs. But, that derails this thread even further.
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter