Most of you guys likely already know all this so really this isn't for you. Someone was asking and it's easy to just post it here.
This is for a system of hits and crits that Bort at least has said is still current. So if some of the underlying rules have changed, OF COURSE this changes as well. What follows is really a way to see what it is you may want to have as a mod on your weps.
Acc as a stat is meaningless. Acc ONLY has meaning when you are comparing it to Def. There is no other time that Acc has any meaning. There are very few ways to gain Acc in the game. There's the trait, and there's a total of +30% on weps. There are some gear pieces in the game as well that add a small bit of Acc.
You can never stack enough Acc to overcome any ships Def. Just won't happen. You will always have less Acc. So once we start to compare Acc to Def we can see that we will always be missing with some of our attacks.
Hmm. Okay now here's thought time. How and when do I want to attack? Is autofire really an option? Furthermore, is it worthwhile to attack at any time other than when I FULLY expect to defeat my opponents hull? Well almost all of the time those answers will be no. Autofire will likely BENEFIT my target by proccing some passive heal or other ability. Resistances are FAR to high for lower level attacks to overcome.
Okay but suppose I have some nice weapon proc I like to keep on? Well you DON'T need stunning Acc to get that applied. It WILL get on there. Don't fret.
Fine. So what do? Well if Acc compares to Def unfavorably, just remove Def. There's more than one way to do this. It is very simple to degrade a targets Def to the point that Acc is now >Def and your hit rate is 100% And it doesn't matter that there's some time between opportunities to do that as gee whiz, your best attacks have cooldowns anyways and we already decided....that we NEED to use our best attacks.
Okay so I don't need Acc. What about Crit H and D? That's a little different. H will convert hits into crits, and D will add more damge to each crit. So it depends on where you happen to be at any point in time on the Crit H/D curve. Currently there's more sources for Crit H off of weapons than there are for Crit D. So you may want to reserve your weps for the Crit D, as you can add the Crit H elsewhere.
But, just looking at a simple sample, to show how it works. We're going to work on 100 hits. Shots that have already landed. And if we've removed Def from our target, all our shots land. So this isn't impossible. Lets say your base damage is 100. Lets say that the crit bonus is 50% of base. So a crit does 150 damage, or 50 points extra. Keep in mind, all we need to consider is the incremental damage, the hit itself has already occurred. Let's say our crit rate is 1%. Okay I can add 1% H or I can add 10% D. 1% H would add one more crit for 50 extra damage. 10% D would add 10 damage to the crit that's already on the board. Okay so I go for H. You can see that you would go for H all the way up to 5% or 5 crits.
At that point no matter what I add, I add the same amount of damage. But if I add D I get the same amount of damage in fewer hits, so you go with D.
Okay now what. I've changed my crit severity to 60. So if I add another 1% H I add 60 damage, and if I add 10% D I add only 50 damage so I choose H.
Now at 6% I'm back at parity so I go with D. And so on.
So acc is useless. Crit H and Crit D are very useful, you just need to know where you stand on the curve to decide what one you need to add next, and realize that by DOING that, you change where you stand.
CAVEAT: Pinned targets seem to get CRIT far more often than they should be. This is only from observations. I don't have 1000 test kills yet. Just saying that if Crit H is already at 50% due to some glitch in acc/def/crit (Nah...COULDN"T BE!) you can see how handy D would be.
The thing is, accuracy isn't an all-or-nothing prospect. Yes, without some kind of snare you're generally always going to have lower accuracy than an opponent's defense, but that only means you'll miss more; it doesn't mean you'll miss all the time. [Acc] is thus desirable because it allows you to deal more damage during times in an opponent's buff cycle where it'd otherwise be difficult. This forces him to use moar heals/resists prematurely.
The thing is, accuracy isn't an all-or-nothing prospect. Yes, without some kind of snare you're generally always going to have lower accuracy than an opponent's defense, but that only means you'll miss more; it doesn't mean you'll miss all the time. [Acc] is thus desirable because it allows you to deal more damage during times in an opponent's buff cycle where it'd otherwise be difficult. This forces him to use moar heals/resists prematurely.
It's never not a useful stat, really.
I agree with Shimmer.
This is also not a binary question, if you or your team packs enough movement limiters (therefore defense limiters) you may be able to risk dropping your acc some - but that also limits you to making your attacks when your opponent is completely controlled.
Conversely if you're team does not have a lot of movement control, you're going to want higher ACC.
I tend to err on the higher acc side of things, although I've been using ACCx2 CrtHx1 for a while now and keeping an eye on my hit percentages in ACT.
The thing is, accuracy isn't an all-or-nothing prospect. Yes, without some kind of snare you're generally always going to have lower accuracy than an opponent's defense, but that only means you'll miss more; it doesn't mean you'll miss all the time. [Acc] is thus desirable because it allows you to deal more damage during times in an opponent's buff cycle where it'd otherwise be difficult. This forces him to use moar heals/resists prematurely.
It's never not a useful stat, really.
It is an all or nothing prospect. I'm not sure why you don't see that. Really read it over again.
Autofire or weak fire is useless and doesn't force anything. I never said you would miss all the time. I just said it was useless. And it is. All that damage will just get healed. Happens all the time and there's even an Obviousland Thread on that very subject. Far be it from me to go against that!
And really read the entire post. You'll add far more damage when you need to with 100% certainty by NOT stacking Acc. And as you can in NO WAY compare Acc to a stat that you DO NOT KNOW the value of, namely Def, how exactly are you basing your argument? And really, you can only miss 75%. And most people are above that anyway. Go hit the charts. See how many hits 30% could possibly give you vs the given ranges of defense. What you will find is that targets that you wouldn't even TRY to alpha already have you far enough upside down that you won't be doing much better than a 25% hit rate anyway, and a target that you would snare is a target that deserves a hugely inflated Crit Death.
And our goal is to destroy the enemy, not give him scratches. Honest. Beam to my ready room and we'll take turns trading Alphas.
I find acc trait usefully on the burst damage weapons, I categorize these weapons as the main go to for a large hit, for example on a escort, DHC and turrets I like CritH and CritD, but if i running a torp I want Acc, or if I am running a DBB for BOL I want Acc, I want maximize those weapons to hit the majority of the time when I am going for the huge hit. Acc the last time I checked, if its higher than the def of the target gets transferred over to CritH.
Hey I Used to be Captain Data, well I guess I still am in game but the account link really screwed everything up :rolleyes:
This is also not a binary question, if you or your team packs enough movement limiters (therefore defense limiters) you may be able to risk dropping your acc some - but that also limits you to making your attacks when your opponent is completely controlled.
Conversely if you're team does not have a lot of movement control, you're going to want higher ACC.
I tend to err on the higher acc side of things, although I've been using ACCx2 CrtHx1 for a while now and keeping an eye on my hit percentages in ACT.
And you'd be wrong. Maybe you'd better just get some snares. So you can err on the higher side if you like. Its still erring.
And the bit about limiting attacks to when your target is controlled. Okay. So you consider a high def highly mobile full defended target a GOOD target. Because that's what you're saying. You may want to take a moment and back off of this a bit.
I find acc trait usefully on the burst damage weapons, I categorize these weapons as the main go to for a large hit, for example on a escort, DHC and turrets I like CritH and CritD, but if i running a torp I want Acc, or if I am running a DBB for BOL I want Acc, I want maximize those weapons to hit the majority of the time when I am going for the huge hit. Acc the last time I checked, if its higher than the def of the target gets transferred over to CritH.
Keep checking. And keep reading. Thats covered in there. And you may want to consider that the Acc stat for BO3 happens to be busted. Just saying.
And really, I have hours of tape saying I got this knocked, in exactly the way I say I do.
And you'd be wrong. Maybe you'd better just get some snares.
Maybe you should test your theory out in an Arena scenario against very heavily defended targets, and not Ker'rat where you can just hide and wait for opportune moments.
And the bit about limiting attacks to when your target is controlled. Okay. So you consider a high def highly mobile full defended target a GOOD target. Because that's what you're saying. You may want to take a moment and back off of this a bit.
No, I'm saying that waiting for the completely controlled, ideal low defense target is not always an option in a 5v5 arena scenario where you have to actually worry about 4 other players helping keep a target alive.
That's exactly the point. You can't always "take your time" in an arena scenario. Not all us can spend X amount of time cloaked waiting for the perfect kill shot.
ACC helps in situations where you need to brute force kill your target whether they are running some buffs or not.
Of course I'm not advocating going after targets when they have APO/EM/TT/RSP up (although can brute force through these as well).
CAVEAT: Pinned targets seem to get CRIT far more often than they should be. This is only from observations. I don't have 1000 test kills yet. Just saying that if Crit H is already at 50% due to some glitch in acc/def/crit (Nah...COULDN"T BE!) you can see how handy D would be.
Excess acc converts to crit chance, I believe. So if your target is immobilized, it may be the same thing as H, or maybe even better.
I should add that I believe that to be true, but I'm not very sure of it.
_________________________________________________ [Kluless][Kold][Steel Heels][Snagtooth] [Louis Cipher][Outta Gum][Thysa Kymbo][Spanner][Frakk] [D'Mented][D'Licious]
Joined October 2009. READ BEFORE POSTING
This sums up what I've been feeling for a while, but since I took my lessons from your vids and my time in an ungeared Fleet Norgh maybe it's not surprising that I think you're on to something. I did a bad thing with those lessons I guess since I'm flying kind of the anti-BoP lately in the Jem HEC. I tool around trying for holds and massaging GDF until I get somebody stuck and I unload. If I have a BO about to expire I'll toss it at somebody for the heck of it but for the most part I don't take buffed shots at moving targets.
The thing is, I still find myself missing on a BO2 with 1 [Acc] on the DBB while the target is held, so IDK exactly what to think. Maybe I need to give the TB a second longer to get ahold, maybe there's a baked in miss to BO. Anecdotal misses weigh heavily I guess.
Tooling around and looking for holds works fine until I come across arenas where I'm the only non-cloak. Last night I got erased, like the sub-nucs were sandwiched in with about 3 alphas. It made me think about what somebody, maybe you, said about the ON/OFF nature of things. Sub-nuc being one way to turn it off, holds being another. When things are on it makes me wonder if I should actually be shooting at them, given the nature of fleet shields for example.
Um, this might be a nasty question, but what's the effect of a stun on def?
Maybe you should test your theory out in an Arena scenario against very heavily defended targets, and not Ker'rat where you can just hide and wait for opportune moments.
No, I'm saying that waiting for the completely controlled, ideal low defense target is not always an option in a 5v5 arena scenario where you have to actually worry about 4 other players helping keep a target alive.
That's exactly the point. You can't always "take your time" in an arena scenario. Not all us can spend X amount of time cloaked waiting for the perfect kill shot.
ACC helps in situations where you need to brute force kill your target whether they are running some buffs or not.
Of course I'm not advocating going after targets when they have APO/EM/TT/RSP up (although can brute force through these as well).
Maybe I'm doing a disservice to my team but I do wait for opportune moments in arenas.
I don't have time to post more right now, but I think Thissler speaks truth, not The Truth, mind you, because there's two things I'm looking for in a target and only one of them is the possibility of being held. Don't be put off by his use of absolutes in the thread titles; threads that don't stir the pot don't warrant comment.
More later this is interesting g2g. Seriously, stuns = what to def?
_______________ CommanderDonatra@Capt.Sisko: ahhh is it supposed to do that? Norvo Tigan@dontdrunkimshoot: hell ya, maybe
In the situation you mentioned (movement control such that acc>def), the access acc always gets converted into crth and crtd. I don't know the exact formula, maybe somebody does. But the point is, when you have control over your opponent, acc modifier is always going to behave like the other two mods, crth and crtd, that you are advocating here. Higher the acc rating, i believe more the roll into crth and crtd.
And you may want to consider that the Acc stat for BO3 happens to be busted.
Is this really so? In my experience I found evidence to the contrary. When I had 6 points in targetting and running a accx2 crth DBB, my hit rate was somewhere around 75-80%. Now I'm running accx3 DBB with 9 points in targetting and I'm consistently getting 90% hit rate. At least that is what my parser says.
Most of you guys likely already know all this so really this isn't for you. Someone was asking and it's easy to just post it here.
This is for a system of hits and crits that Bort at least has said is still current. So if some of the underlying rules have changed, OF COURSE this changes as well. What follows is really a way to see what it is you may want to have as a mod on your weps.
Acc as a stat is meaningless. Acc ONLY has meaning when you are comparing it to Def. There is no other time that Acc has any meaning. There are very few ways to gain Acc in the game. There's the trait, and there's a total of +30% on weps. There are some gear pieces in the game as well that add a small bit of Acc.
think you need to get out of cap and holds and karret and play real pvp in arens. sorry man but this is all incorrect. i know for a fact since pug had did a parser for all wep mods and acc came out with the highest damage. accx2 is 89% hit rate while accx3 is a 98% hit rate. and this was tested while moving.
The thing is, I still find myself missing on a BO2 with 1 [Acc] on the DBB while the target is held, so IDK exactly what to think. Maybe I need to give the TB a second longer to get ahold, maybe there's a baked in miss to BO. Anecdotal misses weigh heavily I guess.
And from my end, I'm showing a fairly high hit % ratio against non-held/tractored/stunned targets with it.
Maybe I'm doing a disservice to my team but I do wait for opportune moments in arenas.
I don't think there is a single clear answer here.
Sometimes you can wait for a bit more opportune moments, other teams simply going on a fast enough offensive with constant high damage pressure can force the other team to stick to defense.
Obviously you need to find some opportune moments, but I don't agree that you can always 'take your time' doing so.
Is this really so? In my experience I found evidence to the contrary. When I had 6 points in targetting and running a accx2 crth DBB, my hit rate was somewhere around 75-80%. Now I'm running accx3 DBB with 9 points in targetting and I'm consistently getting 90% hit rate. At least that is what my parser says.
Yours, and basically everyone else's parsers as well.
Because we don't know how, exactly, excess ACC converts to CritH/CritD, it is hard to say how useful it is when the target has 0 defense. But, if we assume you sometimes want to shoot at moving targets, ACC must have some additional value.
Empirically, BO3 seems to miss a lot more with a DBB that has no [Acc] at all.
And of course there is always the question of whether anything works the way it says it does.
_________________________________________________ [Kluless][Kold][Steel Heels][Snagtooth] [Louis Cipher][Outta Gum][Thysa Kymbo][Spanner][Frakk] [D'Mented][D'Licious]
Joined October 2009. READ BEFORE POSTING
Because we don't know how, exactly, excess ACC converts to CritH/CritD, it is hard to say how useful it is when the target has 0 defense. But, if we assume you sometimes want to shoot at moving targets, ACC must have some additional value.
Empirically, BO3 seems to miss a lot more with a DBB that has no [Acc] at all.
And of course there is always the question of whether anything works the way it says it does.
I've posted these test results in multiple threads in the past, but I will reiterate.
I have done accuracy tests in controlled environments with fleet mates. And, I concur. ACC is not needed (well, maybe for beams).
Here was our first test:
My fleetmate had an [acc]x3 and [crth]x3 turret. He does not have the accuracy trait. I have the elusive trait and my defense was at 80%. This test was done without buffs and was parsed with each weapon firing about 500-1000 shots.
[acc]x3 = 150 DPS, 80% accuracy
[crth]x3 = 160 DPS, 60% accuracy
Despite having 20% less accuracy, [crth]x3 still had higher DPS.
From our second test:
A different fleetmate had 81.3% defense, and my passive accuracy was 25%. I tested a single [crtd]x3 DHC. With the [crtd]x3 DHC, I was able to hit him 80% of the time. Again, this was with between 500-1000 shots on target.
I did not test beams, but, in regards to cannons and turrets, ACC is not really needed unless you're trying to increase your weapon proc chances.
For my setup, I have all [crtd]x3 weapons on the fore, one [crtd]x3 turret on the aft, and two [crth]x3 turrets on the aft. I picked up the [crth] on the aft for increasing my critical hits and increase my odds at getting a Sensor Assault proc.
Here was our first test:
My fleetmate had an [acc]x3 and [crth]x3 turret. He does not have the accuracy trait. I have the elusive trait and my defense was at 80%. This test was done without buffs and was parsed with each weapon firing about 500-1000 shots.
[acc]x3 = 150 DPS, 80% accuracy
[crth]x3 = 160 DPS, 60% accuracy
Despite having 20% less accuracy, [crth]x3 still had higher DPS.
What about procs from the weapons?
With 1000 shots, that 20% less accuracy means 200 fewer chances for a proc. Heck, if it's a Phased Polaron Turret where the person also has Leech, Tet Glider, KineticProc, PlacOnCritProc, a Rom [Pla] consoles, etc, etc, etc, etc... you're giving up a lot for 10 DPS.
think you need to get out of cap and holds and karret and play real pvp in arens. sorry man but this is all incorrect. i know for a fact since pug had did a parser for all wep mods and acc came out with the highest damage. accx2 is 89% hit rate while accx3 is a 98% hit rate. and this was tested while moving.
Why arena is boring, everyone just zergs towards the center of map, while cap and hold fights get spread out more at different cap points, more opportunity for 1v1 battles and less relying on cross heals to save you just yourself. Feds seem to want to q more for cap and hold anyway rather then arena. Not sure why since it favors KDF more due to cloak but cap and hols always starts faster for me.
Dps isn't always what matters, its burst dps, and Acc doesn't hit hard enough, OP is right you need all crit mods. I use them on my bop with tractoring too and it works great. Also so many people don't know to keep their defense bonus maxed like cruisers moving at half speed to make turning easier that I can just kill them between my tractors then watch for an escort to waste omega then tractor and kill him, often with just 1 or 2 shots due to all the crit mods.
think you need to get out of cap and holds and karret and play real pvp in arens. sorry man but this is all incorrect. i know for a fact since pug had did a parser for all wep mods and acc came out with the highest damage. accx2 is 89% hit rate while accx3 is a 98% hit rate. and this was tested while moving.
This is interesting and confirms a suspicion I've nursed for a week or so now... basically, I think if anything [Acc] is undervalued. The effect doesn't seem to be mild at all: I swapped out my old [Acc]x3s for some phased lols on a whim and my accuracy completely plummeted. With [Acc]x3 my overall accuracy is near to 100%; without it it can be anywhere from ~97 to as low as 85 at times, depending how bad I'm focused.
There seems to be some sort of critical point between [Acc]x2 and [Acc]x3 that makes the latter much more effective.
Dps isn't always what matters, its burst dps, and Acc doesn't hit hard enough, OP is right you need all crit mods. I use them on my bop with tractoring too and it works great. Also so many people don't know to keep their defense bonus maxed like cruisers moving at half speed to make turning easier that I can just kill them between my tractors then watch for an escort to waste omega then tractor and kill him, often with just 1 or 2 shots due to all the crit mods.
I know players (and I count myself among them) who can burst with or without weapon modifiers. Timing will always do more for you than any piece of equipment will.
Why arena is boring, everyone just zergs towards the center of map, while cap and hold fights get spread out more at different cap points, more opportunity for 1v1 battles and less relying on cross heals to save you just yourself. Feds seem to want to q more for cap and hold anyway rather then arena. Not sure why since it favors KDF more due to cloak but cap and hols always starts faster for me.
Dps isn't always what matters, its burst dps, and Acc doesn't hit hard enough, OP is right you need all crit mods. I use them on my bop with tractoring too and it works great. Also so many people don't know to keep their defense bonus maxed like cruisers moving at half speed to make turning easier that I can just kill them between my tractors then watch for an escort to waste omega then tractor and kill him, often with just 1 or 2 shots due to all the crit mods.
I marked the important part of what you said...and it's part of what Thissler is saying.
If you're flying a BoP in CnH or Ker'rat - then yeah, you can swoop in for the awesome alpha gank on the unsuspecting or otherwise engaged target... you can murderize them.
But that's all it is... it's a gank - it's an assassination.
It's not PvP. You might as well go kill NPCs for all the difficulty involved in it.
Granted, that's what the BoP's designed to do - it's designed for that playstyle. Otherwise, it gets chewed up and spit out without a second thought.
And that's not butthurt, lol - I die in all sorts of awesome ways - getting bslapped by a decloaking BoP while I'm not paying attention or doing something else...is pretty far down on the list of things that might upset me. Do some of the timeship TRIBBLE that causes me to desync and need to restart the game...then I'll grumble.
So depending on what you're planning on doing - stomping nubpugs in CnH or participating in Premade v. Premade or PUGmade v. PUGmade... you're going to want to plan your build accordingly.
I don't plan my build assuming that all of my opponents are going to be "nubpugs".
And if a build is effective in a Premade v Premade or PUGmade v PUGmade, it will also be effective in 'stomping nubpugs'.
The difference is that focusing your build on exploiting the fact that nubs, are in fact nubs, is really just self-aggrandizing kirk stuff IMO.
The fact that both Acc and CrtD/H can all be valuable is most likely the best conclusion we can come to.
Different builds, even tactics might require different mods to be fully effective, simple as that.
Example; BoP Alpha, Tractor beam (Assuming you always time it exactly when Omega's down on the opponent (Or PH) we can probably all agree that you gain the highest benefit with either [dmg]x3, [crth]x3 or [crtd]x3 weapons.
Make the rest up yourself. There really is not that much calculation and math needed to pick the right mods for the right situation.
I marked the important part of what you said...and it's part of what Thissler is saying.
If you're flying a BoP in CnH or Ker'rat - then yeah, you can swoop in for the awesome alpha gank on the unsuspecting or otherwise engaged target... you can murderize them.
But that's all it is... it's a gank - it's an assassination.
It's not PvP. You might as well go kill NPCs for all the difficulty involved in it.
Granted, that's what the BoP's designed to do - it's designed for that playstyle. Otherwise, it gets chewed up and spit out without a second thought.
Agreed.
This is why the some players feel the BoP can be a liability to the team (Arena), and why other players feel like it has a massive advantage (Ker'rat).
You can never stack enough Acc to overcome any ships Def. Just won't happen. You will always have less Acc. So once we start to compare Acc to Def we can see that we will always be missing with some of our attacks.
My acc x3 MkXII purple outperform anything else. I think the question one should ask oneself, is how often do you want to miss.
My acc x3 MkXII purple outperform anything else. I think the question one should ask oneself, is how often do you want to miss.
Perhaps an even more important question is, how much of your Crits do you want to miss? A shot can both be marked as Critical and still marked a Miss. More accuracy practically and simply means more Critical hits actually having any effect. Log's wont show this nice side effect in the log summary
Im somewhat surprised this whole modifier stuff is still in debate after 3 years. Cant we simply make up our mind and be done with it, saves alot of misinformation on new people that come to STO's PvP world
With 1000 shots, that 20% less accuracy means 200 fewer chances for a proc. Heck, if it's a Phased Polaron Turret where the person also has Leech, Tet Glider, KineticProc, PlacOnCritProc, a Rom [Pla] consoles, etc, etc, etc, etc... you're giving up a lot for 10 DPS.
We weren't testing procs, but I mentioned in my previous thread that ACC would be better if you're trying to get a proc chance.
However, the Placate on Crit proc (aka Sensor Assault) would work better with [crth] than with [acc]. Despite having 20% less accuracy, the increased number of critical hits gave it more damage. That would imply that you will get much more critical hits with [crth] than with [acc]. That is why I run two [crth]x3 turrets on the aft. I forgot to mention that this test was run, I believe, after the Tachyokinetic Converter became available, and before the Reputation system. So, my fleetmate's passive critical hit was probably just below 5%.
Still, I'd prefer to have more damage than proc chances. Not like it matters, though...I already have 80% accuracy with 4x DHC [crtd]x3. Again, it will probably be different for beams.
Comments
It's never not a useful stat, really.
vids and guides and stuff
[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
I agree with Shimmer.
This is also not a binary question, if you or your team packs enough movement limiters (therefore defense limiters) you may be able to risk dropping your acc some - but that also limits you to making your attacks when your opponent is completely controlled.
Conversely if you're team does not have a lot of movement control, you're going to want higher ACC.
I tend to err on the higher acc side of things, although I've been using ACCx2 CrtHx1 for a while now and keeping an eye on my hit percentages in ACT.
It is an all or nothing prospect. I'm not sure why you don't see that. Really read it over again.
Autofire or weak fire is useless and doesn't force anything. I never said you would miss all the time. I just said it was useless. And it is. All that damage will just get healed. Happens all the time and there's even an Obviousland Thread on that very subject. Far be it from me to go against that!
And really read the entire post. You'll add far more damage when you need to with 100% certainty by NOT stacking Acc. And as you can in NO WAY compare Acc to a stat that you DO NOT KNOW the value of, namely Def, how exactly are you basing your argument? And really, you can only miss 75%. And most people are above that anyway. Go hit the charts. See how many hits 30% could possibly give you vs the given ranges of defense. What you will find is that targets that you wouldn't even TRY to alpha already have you far enough upside down that you won't be doing much better than a 25% hit rate anyway, and a target that you would snare is a target that deserves a hugely inflated Crit Death.
And our goal is to destroy the enemy, not give him scratches. Honest. Beam to my ready room and we'll take turns trading Alphas.
And you'd be wrong. Maybe you'd better just get some snares. So you can err on the higher side if you like. Its still erring.
And the bit about limiting attacks to when your target is controlled. Okay. So you consider a high def highly mobile full defended target a GOOD target. Because that's what you're saying. You may want to take a moment and back off of this a bit.
Take your time!!
Keep checking. And keep reading. Thats covered in there. And you may want to consider that the Acc stat for BO3 happens to be busted. Just saying.
And really, I have hours of tape saying I got this knocked, in exactly the way I say I do.
What do you have?
Maybe you should test your theory out in an Arena scenario against very heavily defended targets, and not Ker'rat where you can just hide and wait for opportune moments.
No, I'm saying that waiting for the completely controlled, ideal low defense target is not always an option in a 5v5 arena scenario where you have to actually worry about 4 other players helping keep a target alive.
That's exactly the point. You can't always "take your time" in an arena scenario. Not all us can spend X amount of time cloaked waiting for the perfect kill shot.
ACC helps in situations where you need to brute force kill your target whether they are running some buffs or not.
Of course I'm not advocating going after targets when they have APO/EM/TT/RSP up (although can brute force through these as well).
Excess acc converts to crit chance, I believe. So if your target is immobilized, it may be the same thing as H, or maybe even better.
I should add that I believe that to be true, but I'm not very sure of it.
[Kluless][Kold][Steel Heels][Snagtooth]
[Louis Cipher][Outta Gum][Thysa Kymbo][Spanner][Frakk]
[D'Mented][D'Licious]
Joined October 2009. READ BEFORE POSTING
The thing is, I still find myself missing on a BO2 with 1 [Acc] on the DBB while the target is held, so IDK exactly what to think. Maybe I need to give the TB a second longer to get ahold, maybe there's a baked in miss to BO. Anecdotal misses weigh heavily I guess.
Tooling around and looking for holds works fine until I come across arenas where I'm the only non-cloak. Last night I got erased, like the sub-nucs were sandwiched in with about 3 alphas. It made me think about what somebody, maybe you, said about the ON/OFF nature of things. Sub-nuc being one way to turn it off, holds being another. When things are on it makes me wonder if I should actually be shooting at them, given the nature of fleet shields for example.
Um, this might be a nasty question, but what's the effect of a stun on def? Maybe I'm doing a disservice to my team but I do wait for opportune moments in arenas.
I don't have time to post more right now, but I think Thissler speaks truth, not The Truth, mind you, because there's two things I'm looking for in a target and only one of them is the possibility of being held. Don't be put off by his use of absolutes in the thread titles; threads that don't stir the pot don't warrant comment.
More later this is interesting g2g. Seriously, stuns = what to def?
CommanderDonatra@Capt.Sisko: ahhh is it supposed to do that?
Norvo Tigan@dontdrunkimshoot: hell ya, maybe
Is this really so? In my experience I found evidence to the contrary. When I had 6 points in targetting and running a accx2 crth DBB, my hit rate was somewhere around 75-80%. Now I'm running accx3 DBB with 9 points in targetting and I'm consistently getting 90% hit rate. At least that is what my parser says.
Elite Defense Stovokor
think you need to get out of cap and holds and karret and play real pvp in arens. sorry man but this is all incorrect. i know for a fact since pug had did a parser for all wep mods and acc came out with the highest damage. accx2 is 89% hit rate while accx3 is a 98% hit rate. and this was tested while moving.
And from my end, I'm showing a fairly high hit % ratio against non-held/tractored/stunned targets with it.
I don't think there is a single clear answer here.
Sometimes you can wait for a bit more opportune moments, other teams simply going on a fast enough offensive with constant high damage pressure can force the other team to stick to defense.
Obviously you need to find some opportune moments, but I don't agree that you can always 'take your time' doing so.
Yours, and basically everyone else's parsers as well.
Empirically, BO3 seems to miss a lot more with a DBB that has no [Acc] at all.
And of course there is always the question of whether anything works the way it says it does.
[Kluless][Kold][Steel Heels][Snagtooth]
[Louis Cipher][Outta Gum][Thysa Kymbo][Spanner][Frakk]
[D'Mented][D'Licious]
Joined October 2009. READ BEFORE POSTING
Here's Hilbert's summary.
Here's a link to the STOked episode that contains the spreadsheet on overflow. (Scroll to the bottom under "MATH").
I have done accuracy tests in controlled environments with fleet mates. And, I concur. ACC is not needed (well, maybe for beams).
Here was our first test:
My fleetmate had an [acc]x3 and [crth]x3 turret. He does not have the accuracy trait. I have the elusive trait and my defense was at 80%. This test was done without buffs and was parsed with each weapon firing about 500-1000 shots.
[acc]x3 = 150 DPS, 80% accuracy
[crth]x3 = 160 DPS, 60% accuracy
Despite having 20% less accuracy, [crth]x3 still had higher DPS.
From our second test:
A different fleetmate had 81.3% defense, and my passive accuracy was 25%. I tested a single [crtd]x3 DHC. With the [crtd]x3 DHC, I was able to hit him 80% of the time. Again, this was with between 500-1000 shots on target.
I did not test beams, but, in regards to cannons and turrets, ACC is not really needed unless you're trying to increase your weapon proc chances.
For my setup, I have all [crtd]x3 weapons on the fore, one [crtd]x3 turret on the aft, and two [crth]x3 turrets on the aft. I picked up the [crth] on the aft for increasing my critical hits and increase my odds at getting a Sensor Assault proc.
What about procs from the weapons?
With 1000 shots, that 20% less accuracy means 200 fewer chances for a proc. Heck, if it's a Phased Polaron Turret where the person also has Leech, Tet Glider, KineticProc, PlacOnCritProc, a Rom [Pla] consoles, etc, etc, etc, etc... you're giving up a lot for 10 DPS.
Why arena is boring, everyone just zergs towards the center of map, while cap and hold fights get spread out more at different cap points, more opportunity for 1v1 battles and less relying on cross heals to save you just yourself. Feds seem to want to q more for cap and hold anyway rather then arena. Not sure why since it favors KDF more due to cloak but cap and hols always starts faster for me.
Dps isn't always what matters, its burst dps, and Acc doesn't hit hard enough, OP is right you need all crit mods. I use them on my bop with tractoring too and it works great. Also so many people don't know to keep their defense bonus maxed like cruisers moving at half speed to make turning easier that I can just kill them between my tractors then watch for an escort to waste omega then tractor and kill him, often with just 1 or 2 shots due to all the crit mods.
This is interesting and confirms a suspicion I've nursed for a week or so now... basically, I think if anything [Acc] is undervalued. The effect doesn't seem to be mild at all: I swapped out my old [Acc]x3s for some phased lols on a whim and my accuracy completely plummeted. With [Acc]x3 my overall accuracy is near to 100%; without it it can be anywhere from ~97 to as low as 85 at times, depending how bad I'm focused.
There seems to be some sort of critical point between [Acc]x2 and [Acc]x3 that makes the latter much more effective.
vids and guides and stuff
[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
I know players (and I count myself among them) who can burst with or without weapon modifiers. Timing will always do more for you than any piece of equipment will.
vids and guides and stuff
[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
I marked the important part of what you said...and it's part of what Thissler is saying.
If you're flying a BoP in CnH or Ker'rat - then yeah, you can swoop in for the awesome alpha gank on the unsuspecting or otherwise engaged target... you can murderize them.
But that's all it is... it's a gank - it's an assassination.
It's not PvP. You might as well go kill NPCs for all the difficulty involved in it.
Granted, that's what the BoP's designed to do - it's designed for that playstyle. Otherwise, it gets chewed up and spit out without a second thought.
And that's not butthurt, lol - I die in all sorts of awesome ways - getting bslapped by a decloaking BoP while I'm not paying attention or doing something else...is pretty far down on the list of things that might upset me. Do some of the timeship TRIBBLE that causes me to desync and need to restart the game...then I'll grumble.
Emphasis mine. (And I think you're making the same point I'm making).
I don't plan my build assuming that all of my opponents are going to be "nubpugs".
And if a build is effective in a Premade v Premade or PUGmade v PUGmade, it will also be effective in 'stomping nubpugs'.
The difference is that focusing your build on exploiting the fact that nubs, are in fact nubs, is really just self-aggrandizing kirk stuff IMO.
5 v 5 in Arena vs. X Team, using Y ships, with Z strategy is not a controlled environment.
The fact that both Acc and CrtD/H can all be valuable is most likely the best conclusion we can come to.
Different builds, even tactics might require different mods to be fully effective, simple as that.
Example; BoP Alpha, Tractor beam (Assuming you always time it exactly when Omega's down on the opponent (Or PH) we can probably all agree that you gain the highest benefit with either [dmg]x3, [crth]x3 or [crtd]x3 weapons.
Make the rest up yourself. There really is not that much calculation and math needed to pick the right mods for the right situation.
Well said.
Agreed.
This is why the some players feel the BoP can be a liability to the team (Arena), and why other players feel like it has a massive advantage (Ker'rat).
Both of their assertions have a kernel of truth.
My acc x3 MkXII purple outperform anything else. I think the question one should ask oneself, is how often do you want to miss.
Perhaps an even more important question is, how much of your Crits do you want to miss? A shot can both be marked as Critical and still marked a Miss. More accuracy practically and simply means more Critical hits actually having any effect. Log's wont show this nice side effect in the log summary
Im somewhat surprised this whole modifier stuff is still in debate after 3 years. Cant we simply make up our mind and be done with it, saves alot of misinformation on new people that come to STO's PvP world
However, the Placate on Crit proc (aka Sensor Assault) would work better with [crth] than with [acc]. Despite having 20% less accuracy, the increased number of critical hits gave it more damage. That would imply that you will get much more critical hits with [crth] than with [acc]. That is why I run two [crth]x3 turrets on the aft. I forgot to mention that this test was run, I believe, after the Tachyokinetic Converter became available, and before the Reputation system. So, my fleetmate's passive critical hit was probably just below 5%.
Still, I'd prefer to have more damage than proc chances. Not like it matters, though...I already have 80% accuracy with 4x DHC [crtd]x3. Again, it will probably be different for beams.