Just saying the overflow hardly ever happens in practical situations, even if it did only by a very small amount. Also at this point it seems that bonus defense goes up faster then accuracy in the game now with the new lockbox ships some can go up to 90%+ (mobius i think?) etc where there hasnt been a +10% acc boost in a long time.
So it only gotten worse in that aspect.
And don't forget the armitage with recall mode doffs. My bonus def in that ship cycles between 100 and 120 before using Omega or evasives. Not sure how todays patch affected it yet, but I think it is still high without the cycling.
So acc overflow won't help you when acc is actually needed against fast moving targets with max def bonus, and in situations where the overflow does kick in when his def bonus is down crit mods are more useful anyway from what I understand here.
Personally I pick-up my critical chance/ bonuses from other sources. I depend on accuracy to deliver the higher hit over duration rather, than relying on increase chance to crit over hits/ time.
Only analogy I can compare it to, at its simplest formula, is the following.
[Acc]x3 throwing 1 golf ball into a 30mm sized hole
[CritH] mod throwing 3 golf balls into a 15mm sized hole.
Now with a bucket of one hundred golf balls, who will probably be the highest returned.
The overflow in practice cannot be compared to 2 full CrtD/H weapon mods I'm afraid. There is a Excel spreadsheet somewhere floating around which shows exactly the benefit of the overflow with Acc vs Defense.
You won't find it. It's one of the archived posts when they moved over the forums to Perfect World.
I figured that would be the case when I said I'd take a look, but I wanted to share what I found anyway...
We've got scattered posts here and there detailing mechanics - would be nifty to have those stickied somewhere. There are some that are pretty easy to hunt down while others...lost in the abyss of Archived Post - that fiendish fiend.
And don't forget the armitage with recall mode doffs. My bonus def in that ship cycles between 100 and 120 before using Omega or evasives. Not sure how todays patch affected it yet, but I think it is still high without the cycling.
So acc overflow won't help you when acc is actually needed against fast moving targets with max def bonus, and in situations where the overflow does kick in when his def bonus is down crit mods are more useful anyway from what I understand here.
I gave that a spin the other night and it was not like everything missed me. In fact while trying it I got the single hardest 1v1 beatdowns I've had since I got in the Jem HEC from 4monkeys, and I get a lot of beatdowns so that's saying something.
Still, I haven't parsed it with a buddy to see how the misses actually shake out.
How you post and treat others in your posts comes back to you.
Slow it down a second brother, I wasn't saying to refrain from giving him some lip. He can take it. You're ellipsising the entire point of my comment away.
Assuming only 25% of the damage gets through resistance and CritH hits trigger a ~2k/facing repair every 10 seconds or so and through TT and or piloting, then 8k= 1/4EHP, ie expect EHP 32k of shield repairs if you're critting at a decent rate. Let's assume 1k regen/6 seconds that's another EHP of 26k of shield regen over 10 seconds. Therefore, pressure damage needs to deal 5.8k raw damage/second to be effecitive at all in this situation and I haven't considered Sci repair console passive repair
In a team environment the threashold 5.8k/sec raw preasure damage (or more) isn't impossible to overcome, but I haven't talked bout the self/team repairs yet either. My point is PuGing w/a pressure build may/is kinda pointless, but in a team environment w/a a couple of AoE pressure damage ships and a couple of AoE debuffing ships and a hard spike damage ship there may still be a case for AoE pressure damage.
Imo, people should want ACC for pressure damage builds and/or high uptime high pressure damage builds. But, others should look @ Crit mods for their particular spike builds. I get that w/the effectiveness of pressure builds having dropped players just consider dropping Acc across the board.
[Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
virusdancer has a great point and I have issues trying to get this accross to pvp friends.
If you CC the target you dont need ACC weapons. They often say that CC is broken. That there are too many ways to break it now.
I dont agree. I often have a tractor and EWP and kill my target.
Broken, Shimmer and most on here are very good premade PVPers. I got mad respect. But I think the PVP community has it wrong and right.
If you all keep your ACC weapons and run your teams the way you do it will work. The problem is if someone changes thier tactics to counter thats when you will be stopped. The biggest issue I suspect is that most of the PVPers premade wise tend to have the same style of teams.
The question is, is this the best way overall to run a premade. Two sci\3 Tacs combo with ACC weapons ect....
Having this norm in pvp matches has made teams very good on what they do. They all practice the same way. I am curious though if someone got serious about forming a premade with CC invovled what would happen.
Either way CC works. It work on some..some other it doesnt. It all depends on the situation. I am successful with it most of the time and CrtH and CrtD weapons help.
What I usually here is your nerfing a team if you have EWP or a tractor.
You are if you are running those SYLE of teams. Form a team that can take advantage of CC and CrtH. Its obvious you would be successful.
Its sort of like a great wide reciever on a running team in football. If you never throw the ball and your star reciever is a poor blocker....you wont do well.
but if you change your offense...you could shock some people.
There's the extrapolation of the BoP Mega Alpha Gank...
...teams that chain Tractor/VM/SNB.
Pick a target, lock them down, and the ACC mod loses it's benefit.
If you've got at least 4-5 in Targeting, Accurate, or a single ACC mod - if you can hold them and strip buffs...you've eliminated their Elusive and 9 Maneuvers (if they've even got those). You're at 100% to hit or more.
So you take all the additional CrtH S7 gave along with all the CrtH that already existed - go with CrtH mods...pick the best weapon for CrtH...cannons...DHCs...and shred.
You're going to get more out of that than if you don't hold/strip the target while running ACC...much less anywhere near what little you'd get out of ACC on Arrays.
Spike.
Pressure.
Those defensive goodies from S7 aren't really going to help against the possible Spike...while they do a great job of making Pressure look even worse.
Am I wrong in this?
I mean, I actually conceded this point in a couple of threads to Thissler.
I think it's safe to say that the opinions of people who have parsed countless matches worth of arena logs were equally dismissed unfairly.
All of my logs show me performing better, not just "hitting more" with generally higher ACC and not with less.
/hugs.
We cool? I have respect for every brain in this thread. If there's somebody in this thread who hasn't vaped me in game I'm not aware of it. If I've ever given the impression to the contrary, the fault is mine.
Once before I had to restate Thissler's OP late in a thread, I'm going to take the liberty of doing so again because while I find his writing style and overstated thread titles delightful it seems to rile some people up and make them miss the point.
What do your (plural) logs show when you run with less Acc and only unload on held targets?
Because that's what Thissler is advocating. He's saying in the OP that Def can be stacked to outpace Acc, so don't bother trying to catch up, just remove Def instead.
I didn't hear him say to dump Acc and shoot at moving targets per usual.
_______________ CommanderDonatra@Capt.Sisko: ahhh is it supposed to do that? Norvo Tigan@dontdrunkimshoot: hell ya, maybe
What do your (plural) logs show when you run with less Acc and only unload on held targets?
Speaking for myself, that's nearly impossible to answer because the logs don't track the other effects (or lack there of) on targets (such as being held), nor does it really track who was killed and when.
Because that's what Thissler is advocating. He's saying in the OP that Def can be stacked to outpace Acc, so don't bother trying to catch up, just remove Def instead.
I didn't hear him say to dump Acc and shoot at moving targets per usual.
Outpacing DEF
I didn't hear him say that either, I just disagree with dumping your ACC entirely because you can't outpace DEF.
You don't need to outpace DEF, that's chasing an overflow bonus that exists for when you have ACC and the target has no DEF to ensure that you still at least get some benefit out of still having ACC.
What you do need, in general, from ACC is to close the gap as much as possible - a gap which is going to be variable based on how many controls your team has and how many ways to escape or ignore those controls your opponents have.
Removing DEF
Removing DEF means that player's ships will need to be redesigned to be more like the borg.
Giant hunks of hull that you just bash on for a very long time (because no one is ever missing).
This is exactly WHY ACC is pointless in PvE, it's even stated flat out by Gecko in the STOked video that introduced the ACC vs. DEF sheet.
Seeing a bunch of misses isn't "fun", but in order to make your NPCs be balanced around that, they need to be giant, typical, MMO Whale bosses (or they need to have mega-regen, mega-resistances or some combination of these 3 attributes).
On top of this, "remove defense" is also one of the many pointless trains of thought in this sub-forum because it presents one of the least likely things to happen in this game.
We're lucky to see a few tweaks here and there on existing powers and items, what are the chances the devs will literally scrap and re-write foundation level combat mechanics that primarily only affect pvp and on top of that one that the pvp community does not have a unified opinion on to begin with?
The remove Def was not about removing Defense from the game...it's about removing/reducing the amount of Defense the target has. You can't keep up with Def because of Acc - but you can hold/strip a target to reduce their Def where your limited Acc is more than enough that additional sources of Acc aren't needed.
The remove Def was not about removing Defense from the game...
Sorry I jumped off on a tangent there due to the previous "remove defense from the game" thread.
Saying you can "hold/strip" a target of defense gets back to what you and I brought up earlier - somethings are much easier in Ker'rat and CnH than they are in arenas with well built teams.
Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't - sometimes your team has holds/slows/immobs, sometimes they don't.
Pick a target, lock them down, and the ACC mod loses it's benefit.
Wait, is there some concept that I'm not quite grasping here, or are we operating under assumption that there is no accuracy overflow when acc > def? Afaik, access acc (thank you holds and engine disables!) IS crtd and crth so I'm not even really sure why this thread exists in the first place.
Wait, is there some concept that I'm not quite grasping here, or are we operating under assumption that there is no accuracy overflow when acc > def? Afaik, access acc (thank you holds and engine disables!) IS crtd and crth so I'm not even really sure why this thread exists in the first place.
Hrmm, I'm going to go with a target that's got both Elusive and 9 Maneuvers - nothing else. Sitting still then, they've got +10% Bonus Defense. The attacker will have Accurate and 9 Targeting - nothing else. Their base Bonus Accuracy before weapon mods is +25%.
If we leave it at that, then the following happens:
>100% chance to hit and overflow +1.63% CrtH & +6.52% CrtD
Say we have to pick one mod: ACC or CrtH or CrtD
ACC) >100% chance to hit and overflow +2.5% CrtH & +10% CrtD
CrtH) >100% chance to hit and overflow +3.63% CrtH & +6.52% CrtD
CrtD) >100% chance to hit and overflow +1.63% CrtH & +26.52% CrtD
Say we have to pick one mod: ACCx2 or CrtHx2 or CrtDx2
ACCx2) >100% chance to hit and overflow +3.2% CrtH & +12.96% CrtD
CrtHx2) >100% chance to hit and overflow +5.63% CrtH & +6.52% CrtD
CrtDx2) >100% chance to hit and overflow +1.63% CrtH & +46.52% CrtD
Say we have to pick one mod: ACCx3 or CrtHx3 or CrtDx3
ACCx3) >100% chance to hit and overflow +3.88% CrtH & +15.5% CrtD
CrtHx3) >100% chance to hit and overflow +7.63% CrtH & +6.52% CrtD
CrtDx3) >100% chance to hit and overflow +1.63% CrtH & +66.52% CrtD
Say you went with ACC/CrtH/CrtD...
>100% chance to hit and overflow +4.5% CrtH & +26.52% CrtD
ACC/CrtHx2...
>100% chance to hit and overflow +6.5% CrtH & +6.52% CrtD
CrtHx2/CrtD...
>100% chance to hit and overflow +5.63% CrtH & +26.52% CrtD
Again, ACCx3 is...
>100% chance to hit and overflow +3.88% CrtH & +15.5% CrtD
No mods... (Accurate & 9 Targeting vs. Elusive & 9 Maneuvers at 0 speed)...
>100% chance to hit and overflow +1.63% CrtH & +6.52% CrtD
The 3x ACC mods are giving you +2.25% CrtH and +8.98% CrtD over the no mods weapon against a held target.
Obviously, against a moving target you're going to be looking at the to-hit roll. Let's say the target's an Escort, moving at 24+ impulse...no abilities, other gear, etc. Just our Acc/Targeting vs. Elu/Maneuvers/Escort/no penalty for being below 24 impulse...
ACCx3: 80% to-hit
no mods: 64.5% to-hit
This is all based off of the various Jedi Counsel posts and the STOked spreadsheet.
I have noticed in other threads that people are looking at the Accuracy Overflow in a different manner than presented by the Jedi Counsel posts.
The 0.125 CrtH modifier per 0.1 difference in Acc/Def is treated as 1.25% in the Jedi posts. Some folks are treating it as 12.5% per 0.1... which I can see based on the wording of the explanation where the 0.125 is said to be treated as a %. However, in the examples given - it's treated as 1.25% and not 12.5%.
edit: Don't forget to subtract the 1 from the Diff Positive Box for the actual Accuracy Overflow.
So say we go with no skills/traits/gear other than the weapon mod - so we've got 100% Accuracy and 85% Defense (not to be confused with Bonus Accuracy/Defense)...
With it being 1.6% CrtH and 6.52% CrtD on ACCx3:
+3.88% CrtH
+15.5% CrtD
With it being 16.3% CrtH and 65.2% CrtD on ACCx3:
+38.8% CrtH
+155% CrtD
Were it the latter, though, there would be absolutely no reason ever to use CrtH/CrtD weapons...so it follows, imho, that the example given by the Jedi Counsel was correct and the explanation earlier in that was most likely misread by some.
edit: Thanks to pokersmith1 for pointing out where I was carrying a 1 in rushing that I should have - so I've adjusted the math.
To get the +10% Accuracy from an ACC mod requires 4-5 in Targeting...a T3 skill.
To get the +2% Critical Hit from a CrtH mod requires 9 in a weapon specialization (separate for energy and projectile)...a T5 skill.
The 9 specialization though, will also give you +25% CrtD which is better than the +20% from a CrtD mod. But it's a T5 skill...costly.
With nothing else (no traits, other gear, etc, etc, etc)...
5 in Targeting (10k SP) with CrtH/CrtD mods on a weapon will give you: +11.2% Acc, +2% CrtH, & +20% CrtD.
9 in Energy Weapon Specialization (27k SP) with ACCx2 on a weapon gives you: +20% Acc, +2% CrtH, & +25% CrtD. Course, that's only with your energy weapons - not your torps or mines. That will cost you another 27k SP.
What's the difference in that to-hit against a target moving at 24 impulse (no other traits, skills, gear, etc, etc, etc)...?
+11.2% = 75%
+20% = 80%
Against a target sitting still (no bonuses, etc, so it's at -15%), what kind of numbers are we looking at?
+11.2% = >100% with +4.65% CrtH & +30.6% CrtD
+20% = >100% with +5.2% CrtH & +37.96% CrtD
So...10k SP with CrtH/CrtD weapons or 54k SP with ACCx2 weapons to get:
Moving Target
+5% To-Hit
+5% CrtD
Pinned Target
+0.55% CrtH
+7.36% CrtD
Yes, those are rough numbers - there are all sorts of things that could be involved - gear, traits, actual movement speed, etc, etc, etc... so keep that in mind.
But still - look at the cost in skill points...then look at the cost of the weapons on the Exchange.
I wish more of my guys were built around saying, "Sit!" at the target or that I ran with groups that said it for me...lol. As is, I tend to run the ACCx2 or ACCx2/CrtH weapons. On the gal I'm leveling now, though - I'm planning on going that ACC/CrtHx2 route cause she's got some "Sit!" in her.
edit: Thanks to pokersmith1 for pointing out where I was carrying a 1 in rushing that I should have - so I've adjusted the math.
With the assistance of one of our Programmers, we think we've uncovered the issue at hand.
Suffice it to say, Enhancements from weapons (like [Acc] mods, but also includes [Dmg], [CrtD], etc, as well as Procs) aren't being properly inherited by all powers in all circumstances. I'm hesitant to post more details than that until we have a working fix, which is unlikely to happen internally until next week at the earliest.
So, stay tuned! I'll let you all know what's going on, once we have made more progress internally.
Still no news, mind you...meh. But we really don't know how things would have worked had they worked as they intended things to work nor what will come of it actually working after they tune it...until they actually do it.
I'm still interested to see what this is going to do to the game when it hits Tribble...
Thank you for your response. From my understanding of the spreadsheet, I took it to be +1.25% critical chance and +5% critical severity for each 10% accuracy overflow. However your numbers and mine don't match. Here are the numbers that I came up with - click.
Hrmm, my numbers are off - thanks to pokersmith1 for pointing that out. I'll need to go back and fix that...meh. I was keeping the 1.TRIBBLE when pasting instead of 0.TRIBBLE... bah, that will teach me to rush through something. I'll go back and edit it...first though...
Thank you for your response. From my understanding of the spreadsheet, I took it to be +1.25% critical chance and +5% critical severity for each 10% accuracy overflow. However your numbers and mine don't match. Here are the numbers that I came up with - click.
Elusive gives you +10% Bonus Defense.
9 Maneuvers gives you +15% Bonus Defense.
That's +25% Bonus Defense.
Course as noted below, you were probably applying the -15% for sitting still to get that 10%...so never mind.
On the flip-side, assume that you still have no inherent Accuracy modifiers, but your target is stopped (and taking a -15% Defense penalty, or -.15), plugging in 1.00 into the Accuracy box, and .85 into the Defense box, you get 0.15 as your Diff score. Since this is positive, you would look in the If Diff Positive box, and get "1.13..." as your result... Meaning you have 'Accuracy Overflow'... You have 100% chance to-hit your target, and, if you look in the lower-right hand portion of the spreadsheet, you can look on the Accuracy Overflow table, and look at the entry for 0.1 (since your overflow is 0.13-ish)... You would gain a little more than 1.25% Critical Chance, and a little more than 5% Critical Severity.
While the Diff is 0.15, it's a case of looking at the Diff Positive Box - not the number in the Diff Box. So you're looking at 0.130434783 - that's the Accuracy Overflow - not the 0.15...
So that gives you +1.63% CrtH & +6.5% CrtD.
With your example, not sure how you got the Accuracy Overflow of 0.15... was it the Diff Box and not the Diff Positive Box for a +25% Accuracy vs. +10% Defense (should be +25%)?
Hrmmm, I need to go back and redo my numbers like I said...stupid of me carrying that 1 over...meh.
Let me do a quick example here though and I'll go back to edit those afterward:
Accurate (+10%) & 9 Targeting (+15%) vs. Elusive (+10%) & 9 Maneuvers (+15%) vs. a target sitting still (oh, duh - that's where you got the 10% - like I said, I'm not thinking right now...moron that I am).
So that gives us our +1.63% CrtH & +6.5% CrtD.
If we add a +10% ACC mod to that, our Accuracy Overflow becomes 0.2 giving us +2.5% CrtH & +10% CrtD.
If we took a +2% CrtH mod, we'd have +3.63% CrtH & +6.5% CrtD.
If we took a +20% CrtD mod, we'd have +1.63% CrtH & +26.5% CrtD.
Still no news, mind you...meh. But we really don't know how things would have worked had they worked as they intended things to work nor what will come of it actually working after they tune it...until they actually do it.
I'm still interested to see what this is going to do to the game when it hits Tribble...
If they intend on TRIBBLE up how acc mod works currently, they will tick off a vast majority of PvPers who spent quit a fortune on acc weapons over the years. Including myself... further
Cryptic is kind of famous for angering its playerbase anyway, so nothing new for them to worry about.
If they intend on TRIBBLE up how acc mod works currently, they will tick off a vast majority of PvPers who spent quit a fortune on acc weapons over the years. Including myself... further
Cryptic is kind of famous for angering its playerbase anyway, so nothing new for them to worry about.
It's a case that mods/procs are not working with certain abilities. Weapons with those mods/procs should work better...all in all, folks should end up dying faster, eh?
Course, that's where the tuning comes into play...hrmm...
If they intend on TRIBBLE up how acc mod works currently, they will tick off a vast majority of PvPers who spent quit a fortune on acc weapons over the years. Including myself... further
It is all about the ratios. Once your crit chance and severity get high enough even [Dmg] mods become useful! This really is kind of a common sense type thing.
Speaking about accuracy. My torpedoes lately miss like hell. Not sure if its HYT3 specific issue, but seeing regularly 3 out of 4 torpedoes flying aways makes me always feel sad.
"Cryptic Studio’s Jack Emmert (2010): Microtransactions are the biggest bunch of nonsense. I like paying one fee and not worrying about it – like my cellphone. The world’s biggest MMO isn’t item based, even though the black market item GDP is bigger than Russia … microtransactions make me want to die.”
Now i took some time to read the whole thread and I did, twice. Either I'm tired from work, either I'm really dumb and should be worried, but in the end I haven't understood anything about where we stand now with modifiers
All things said and done, Acc modifiers work in all situations. CrtD & CrtH work in specific situations.
I personally have spent money on respec tokens like they are going out of fashion and ec that would make most cringe testing all this for the last 2 years.
My conclusion has always ended up being that you need a minimum of 2 Acc modifiers on weapons.
Now i took some time to read the whole thread and I did, twice. Either I'm tired from work, either I'm really dumb and should be worried, but in the end I haven't understood anything about where we stand now with modifiers
....Good I'm not the only one......geez I was just simply trying to find out if my last few million EC was worth it.........Having the Accuracy modifier just felt like I was doing more damage, v.s. the CritH & CritD modifiers.......
Comments
And don't forget the armitage with recall mode doffs. My bonus def in that ship cycles between 100 and 120 before using Omega or evasives. Not sure how todays patch affected it yet, but I think it is still high without the cycling.
So acc overflow won't help you when acc is actually needed against fast moving targets with max def bonus, and in situations where the overflow does kick in when his def bonus is down crit mods are more useful anyway from what I understand here.
Only analogy I can compare it to, at its simplest formula, is the following.
[Acc]x3 throwing 1 golf ball into a 30mm sized hole
[CritH] mod throwing 3 golf balls into a 15mm sized hole.
Now with a bucket of one hundred golf balls, who will probably be the highest returned.
Interview with Gecko and spreadsheet: www.jupiterbroadcasting.com/6611/meet-al-rivera-stoked-76/
It seems to me that a good/lucky chance of overflow would only provide 1/2 of a mod total.
-Maverick/Rhino
I figured that would be the case when I said I'd take a look, but I wanted to share what I found anyway...
We've got scattered posts here and there detailing mechanics - would be nifty to have those stickied somewhere. There are some that are pretty easy to hunt down while others...lost in the abyss of Archived Post - that fiendish fiend.
I gave that a spin the other night and it was not like everything missed me. In fact while trying it I got the single hardest 1v1 beatdowns I've had since I got in the Jem HEC from 4monkeys, and I get a lot of beatdowns so that's saying something.
Still, I haven't parsed it with a buddy to see how the misses actually shake out.
Slow it down a second brother, I wasn't saying to refrain from giving him some lip. He can take it. You're ellipsising the entire point of my comment away.
=/= I'm not trying to protect his feelings. "You don't do Arenas" or "You only decloak-Alpha" dismisses his point unfairly. That's all.
CommanderDonatra@Capt.Sisko: ahhh is it supposed to do that?
Norvo Tigan@dontdrunkimshoot: hell ya, maybe
In a team environment the threashold 5.8k/sec raw preasure damage (or more) isn't impossible to overcome, but I haven't talked bout the self/team repairs yet either. My point is PuGing w/a pressure build may/is kinda pointless, but in a team environment w/a a couple of AoE pressure damage ships and a couple of AoE debuffing ships and a hard spike damage ship there may still be a case for AoE pressure damage.
Imo, people should want ACC for pressure damage builds and/or high uptime high pressure damage builds. But, others should look @ Crit mods for their particular spike builds. I get that w/the effectiveness of pressure builds having dropped players just consider dropping Acc across the board.
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
I think it's safe to say that the opinions of people who have parsed countless matches worth of arena logs were equally dismissed unfairly.
All of my logs show me performing better, not just "hitting more" with generally higher ACC and not with less.
If you CC the target you dont need ACC weapons. They often say that CC is broken. That there are too many ways to break it now.
I dont agree. I often have a tractor and EWP and kill my target.
Broken, Shimmer and most on here are very good premade PVPers. I got mad respect. But I think the PVP community has it wrong and right.
If you all keep your ACC weapons and run your teams the way you do it will work. The problem is if someone changes thier tactics to counter thats when you will be stopped. The biggest issue I suspect is that most of the PVPers premade wise tend to have the same style of teams.
The question is, is this the best way overall to run a premade. Two sci\3 Tacs combo with ACC weapons ect....
Having this norm in pvp matches has made teams very good on what they do. They all practice the same way. I am curious though if someone got serious about forming a premade with CC invovled what would happen.
Either way CC works. It work on some..some other it doesnt. It all depends on the situation. I am successful with it most of the time and CrtH and CrtD weapons help.
What I usually here is your nerfing a team if you have EWP or a tractor.
You are if you are running those SYLE of teams. Form a team that can take advantage of CC and CrtH. Its obvious you would be successful.
Its sort of like a great wide reciever on a running team in football. If you never throw the ball and your star reciever is a poor blocker....you wont do well.
but if you change your offense...you could shock some people.
...teams that chain Tractor/VM/SNB.
Pick a target, lock them down, and the ACC mod loses it's benefit.
If you've got at least 4-5 in Targeting, Accurate, or a single ACC mod - if you can hold them and strip buffs...you've eliminated their Elusive and 9 Maneuvers (if they've even got those). You're at 100% to hit or more.
So you take all the additional CrtH S7 gave along with all the CrtH that already existed - go with CrtH mods...pick the best weapon for CrtH...cannons...DHCs...and shred.
You're going to get more out of that than if you don't hold/strip the target while running ACC...much less anywhere near what little you'd get out of ACC on Arrays.
Spike.
Pressure.
Those defensive goodies from S7 aren't really going to help against the possible Spike...while they do a great job of making Pressure look even worse.
Am I wrong in this?
I mean, I actually conceded this point in a couple of threads to Thissler.
We cool? I have respect for every brain in this thread. If there's somebody in this thread who hasn't vaped me in game I'm not aware of it. If I've ever given the impression to the contrary, the fault is mine.
Once before I had to restate Thissler's OP late in a thread, I'm going to take the liberty of doing so again because while I find his writing style and overstated thread titles delightful it seems to rile some people up and make them miss the point.
What do your (plural) logs show when you run with less Acc and only unload on held targets?
Because that's what Thissler is advocating. He's saying in the OP that Def can be stacked to outpace Acc, so don't bother trying to catch up, just remove Def instead.
I didn't hear him say to dump Acc and shoot at moving targets per usual.
CommanderDonatra@Capt.Sisko: ahhh is it supposed to do that?
Norvo Tigan@dontdrunkimshoot: hell ya, maybe
Absolutely.
Speaking for myself, that's nearly impossible to answer because the logs don't track the other effects (or lack there of) on targets (such as being held), nor does it really track who was killed and when.
Outpacing DEF
I didn't hear him say that either, I just disagree with dumping your ACC entirely because you can't outpace DEF.
You don't need to outpace DEF, that's chasing an overflow bonus that exists for when you have ACC and the target has no DEF to ensure that you still at least get some benefit out of still having ACC.
What you do need, in general, from ACC is to close the gap as much as possible - a gap which is going to be variable based on how many controls your team has and how many ways to escape or ignore those controls your opponents have.
Removing DEF
Removing DEF means that player's ships will need to be redesigned to be more like the borg.
Giant hunks of hull that you just bash on for a very long time (because no one is ever missing).
This is exactly WHY ACC is pointless in PvE, it's even stated flat out by Gecko in the STOked video that introduced the ACC vs. DEF sheet.
Seeing a bunch of misses isn't "fun", but in order to make your NPCs be balanced around that, they need to be giant, typical, MMO Whale bosses (or they need to have mega-regen, mega-resistances or some combination of these 3 attributes).
On top of this, "remove defense" is also one of the many pointless trains of thought in this sub-forum because it presents one of the least likely things to happen in this game.
We're lucky to see a few tweaks here and there on existing powers and items, what are the chances the devs will literally scrap and re-write foundation level combat mechanics that primarily only affect pvp and on top of that one that the pvp community does not have a unified opinion on to begin with?
Sorry I jumped off on a tangent there due to the previous "remove defense from the game" thread.
Saying you can "hold/strip" a target of defense gets back to what you and I brought up earlier - somethings are much easier in Ker'rat and CnH than they are in arenas with well built teams.
Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't - sometimes your team has holds/slows/immobs, sometimes they don't.
Everything he says, as humorous as it is - because I only know him to be a "brighter-side-of-life-kinda" guy, he speaks to the heart of the matter.
Wait, is there some concept that I'm not quite grasping here, or are we operating under assumption that there is no accuracy overflow when acc > def? Afaik, access acc (thank you holds and engine disables!) IS crtd and crth so I'm not even really sure why this thread exists in the first place.
Elite Defense Stovokor
Hrmm, I'm going to go with a target that's got both Elusive and 9 Maneuvers - nothing else. Sitting still then, they've got +10% Bonus Defense. The attacker will have Accurate and 9 Targeting - nothing else. Their base Bonus Accuracy before weapon mods is +25%.
If we leave it at that, then the following happens:
>100% chance to hit and overflow +1.63% CrtH & +6.52% CrtD
Say we have to pick one mod: ACC or CrtH or CrtD
ACC) >100% chance to hit and overflow +2.5% CrtH & +10% CrtD
CrtH) >100% chance to hit and overflow +3.63% CrtH & +6.52% CrtD
CrtD) >100% chance to hit and overflow +1.63% CrtH & +26.52% CrtD
Say we have to pick one mod: ACCx2 or CrtHx2 or CrtDx2
ACCx2) >100% chance to hit and overflow +3.2% CrtH & +12.96% CrtD
CrtHx2) >100% chance to hit and overflow +5.63% CrtH & +6.52% CrtD
CrtDx2) >100% chance to hit and overflow +1.63% CrtH & +46.52% CrtD
Say we have to pick one mod: ACCx3 or CrtHx3 or CrtDx3
ACCx3) >100% chance to hit and overflow +3.88% CrtH & +15.5% CrtD
CrtHx3) >100% chance to hit and overflow +7.63% CrtH & +6.52% CrtD
CrtDx3) >100% chance to hit and overflow +1.63% CrtH & +66.52% CrtD
Say you went with ACC/CrtH/CrtD...
>100% chance to hit and overflow +4.5% CrtH & +26.52% CrtD
ACC/CrtHx2...
>100% chance to hit and overflow +6.5% CrtH & +6.52% CrtD
CrtHx2/CrtD...
>100% chance to hit and overflow +5.63% CrtH & +26.52% CrtD
Again, ACCx3 is...
>100% chance to hit and overflow +3.88% CrtH & +15.5% CrtD
No mods... (Accurate & 9 Targeting vs. Elusive & 9 Maneuvers at 0 speed)...
>100% chance to hit and overflow +1.63% CrtH & +6.52% CrtD
The 3x ACC mods are giving you +2.25% CrtH and +8.98% CrtD over the no mods weapon against a held target.
Obviously, against a moving target you're going to be looking at the to-hit roll. Let's say the target's an Escort, moving at 24+ impulse...no abilities, other gear, etc. Just our Acc/Targeting vs. Elu/Maneuvers/Escort/no penalty for being below 24 impulse...
ACCx3: 80% to-hit
no mods: 64.5% to-hit
This is all based off of the various Jedi Counsel posts and the STOked spreadsheet.
I have noticed in other threads that people are looking at the Accuracy Overflow in a different manner than presented by the Jedi Counsel posts.
The 0.125 CrtH modifier per 0.1 difference in Acc/Def is treated as 1.25% in the Jedi posts. Some folks are treating it as 12.5% per 0.1... which I can see based on the wording of the explanation where the 0.125 is said to be treated as a %. However, in the examples given - it's treated as 1.25% and not 12.5%.
edit: Don't forget to subtract the 1 from the Diff Positive Box for the actual Accuracy Overflow.
So say we go with no skills/traits/gear other than the weapon mod - so we've got 100% Accuracy and 85% Defense (not to be confused with Bonus Accuracy/Defense)...
With it being 1.6% CrtH and 6.52% CrtD on ACCx3:
+3.88% CrtH
+15.5% CrtD
With it being 16.3% CrtH and 65.2% CrtD on ACCx3:
+38.8% CrtH
+155% CrtD
Were it the latter, though, there would be absolutely no reason ever to use CrtH/CrtD weapons...so it follows, imho, that the example given by the Jedi Counsel was correct and the explanation earlier in that was most likely misread by some.
edit: Thanks to pokersmith1 for pointing out where I was carrying a 1 in rushing that I should have - so I've adjusted the math.
To get the +10% Accuracy from an ACC mod requires 4-5 in Targeting...a T3 skill.
To get the +2% Critical Hit from a CrtH mod requires 9 in a weapon specialization (separate for energy and projectile)...a T5 skill.
The 9 specialization though, will also give you +25% CrtD which is better than the +20% from a CrtD mod. But it's a T5 skill...costly.
With nothing else (no traits, other gear, etc, etc, etc)...
5 in Targeting (10k SP) with CrtH/CrtD mods on a weapon will give you: +11.2% Acc, +2% CrtH, & +20% CrtD.
9 in Energy Weapon Specialization (27k SP) with ACCx2 on a weapon gives you: +20% Acc, +2% CrtH, & +25% CrtD. Course, that's only with your energy weapons - not your torps or mines. That will cost you another 27k SP.
What's the difference in that to-hit against a target moving at 24 impulse (no other traits, skills, gear, etc, etc, etc)...?
+11.2% = 75%
+20% = 80%
Against a target sitting still (no bonuses, etc, so it's at -15%), what kind of numbers are we looking at?
+11.2% = >100% with +4.65% CrtH & +30.6% CrtD
+20% = >100% with +5.2% CrtH & +37.96% CrtD
So...10k SP with CrtH/CrtD weapons or 54k SP with ACCx2 weapons to get:
Moving Target
+5% To-Hit
+5% CrtD
Pinned Target
+0.55% CrtH
+7.36% CrtD
Yes, those are rough numbers - there are all sorts of things that could be involved - gear, traits, actual movement speed, etc, etc, etc... so keep that in mind.
But still - look at the cost in skill points...then look at the cost of the weapons on the Exchange.
I wish more of my guys were built around saying, "Sit!" at the target or that I ran with groups that said it for me...lol. As is, I tend to run the ACCx2 or ACCx2/CrtH weapons. On the gal I'm leveling now, though - I'm planning on going that ACC/CrtHx2 route cause she's got some "Sit!" in her.
edit: Thanks to pokersmith1 for pointing out where I was carrying a 1 in rushing that I should have - so I've adjusted the math.
can't explain why, nor do i really ever disagree with thissler....on anything.
i'll leave this one to you guys to debate.
have fun kill bad guys
-thrusters on full-
Don't forget this:
Still no news, mind you...meh. But we really don't know how things would have worked had they worked as they intended things to work nor what will come of it actually working after they tune it...until they actually do it.
I'm still interested to see what this is going to do to the game when it hits Tribble...
Thank you for your response. From my understanding of the spreadsheet, I took it to be +1.25% critical chance and +5% critical severity for each 10% accuracy overflow. However your numbers and mine don't match. Here are the numbers that I came up with - click.
I was not aware that skill points modified the modifiers. That is news to me. Do you have a source? If you do, can u point me to it?
Elite Defense Stovokor
Elusive gives you +10% Bonus Defense.
9 Maneuvers gives you +15% Bonus Defense.
That's +25% Bonus Defense.
Course as noted below, you were probably applying the -15% for sitting still to get that 10%...so never mind.
Based on the example provided here:
While the Diff is 0.15, it's a case of looking at the Diff Positive Box - not the number in the Diff Box. So you're looking at 0.130434783 - that's the Accuracy Overflow - not the 0.15...
So that gives you +1.63% CrtH & +6.5% CrtD.
With your example, not sure how you got the Accuracy Overflow of 0.15... was it the Diff Box and not the Diff Positive Box for a +25% Accuracy vs. +10% Defense (should be +25%)?
Hrmmm, I need to go back and redo my numbers like I said...stupid of me carrying that 1 over...meh.
Let me do a quick example here though and I'll go back to edit those afterward:
Accurate (+10%) & 9 Targeting (+15%) vs. Elusive (+10%) & 9 Maneuvers (+15%) vs. a target sitting still (oh, duh - that's where you got the 10% - like I said, I'm not thinking right now...moron that I am).
So that gives us our +1.63% CrtH & +6.5% CrtD.
If we add a +10% ACC mod to that, our Accuracy Overflow becomes 0.2 giving us +2.5% CrtH & +10% CrtD.
If we took a +2% CrtH mod, we'd have +3.63% CrtH & +6.5% CrtD.
If we took a +20% CrtD mod, we'd have +1.63% CrtH & +26.5% CrtD.
2x ACC: +3.2% CrtH & +12.96% CrtD
2x CrtH: +5.63% CrtH & +6.5% CrtD
2x CrtD: +1.63% CrtH & +46.5% CrtD
So yeah, I'll go back and fix my math...meh.
It's not a case of modifying the modifier...it's a case of giving a modifier.
An ACC mod gives +10% Accuracy.
4 in Targeting gives +9.7% Accuracy...5 gives +11.2%.
http://home.comcast.net/~amicus/Skill%20Point%20Effects.htm
If they intend on TRIBBLE up how acc mod works currently, they will tick off a vast majority of PvPers who spent quit a fortune on acc weapons over the years. Including myself... further
Cryptic is kind of famous for angering its playerbase anyway, so nothing new for them to worry about.
| Join Date: January 2009 | Computer | Fleet: Broken Wings |
It's a case that mods/procs are not working with certain abilities. Weapons with those mods/procs should work better...all in all, folks should end up dying faster, eh?
Course, that's where the tuning comes into play...hrmm...
If it pisses off Kerrateers it would be worth it.
I personally have spent money on respec tokens like they are going out of fashion and ec that would make most cringe testing all this for the last 2 years.
My conclusion has always ended up being that you need a minimum of 2 Acc modifiers on weapons.
Simply put, you need to hit them to damage them.
....Good I'm not the only one......geez I was just simply trying to find out if my last few million EC was worth it.........Having the Accuracy modifier just felt like I was doing more damage, v.s. the CritH & CritD modifiers.......