If you've seen a lot of the dev replies, it's pretty clear that's EXACTLY what they do (reading a lot of the replies). Do they have to? No, but they do so anyway sometimes, so I highly doubt it's a lack of self control, especially with this passionate a playerbase.
But like I said, they are human, and no one wants to have a vocal minority saying hurtful things to them for no reason. So when a minority says they're liars for posting 'wrong' info for a good year or so, despite all indications that schedules changed or stalled, they changed their policy afterward.
May or may not have had the desired effect (some still say find things to throw at them for no good reason), but there's nothing wrong with trying to avoid abuse. Calling it weak is like you expect them to just take it...
Lets make sure we're both on the same page, so to speak, before going any further. There are far less dev posts these days than there used to be(branflakes isnt a dev). It sounds like we both agree they do not post as often because they got their feelings hurt by a small group of rude people.
So are they still reading the forums as much as they used to or not? If they are, then it is just as much a "distraction" now as it has ever been. There are still a small number of rude people who say rude things; that hasnt changed. So if that is what hurts the devs feeling, that is no different now than in the past.
So what has anyone gained from their lack of communication? If they are still reading the forums, then they are still being "distracted" and still getting their feelings hurt, and the playerbase has far less information about the game's development.
Now with all of that said, I have a very strong disagreement with punishing a large group of innocent people because of the bad behavior of a small group of people. Like I have said before, the majority of forum posters are well behaved people. A small group is loud and rude. You may not like the loud and rude group, but that does not justify cutting off your well behaved people from all the information they used to get.
What exactly do you mean by "avoid distractions and stress"? Just because they post an engineering report does not mean they have to sit there and read all the replies. Are you suggesting that the devs lack the self control not to sit there and read every reply just because they post some information?
Really? You realize if it was discovered they didn't read the replies; you'd then get posters claiming they completely ignore player feedback; and thus it's the reason 'STO sucks' and/pr 'Cryptic is incompetent'... etc.
[And again, I'm NOT saying this -- I posted the above to show how I believe the forum vocal forum readership would respond -- and we've seen exactly this in certain areas as - for a LONG time, a lot of avid PvPers believed no Cryptic employee was reading anything posted in the PvP section -- and I think somme still do; even though they've had Brandon and borticus posting in there that the devs do read the PvP forum posts.]
You can't tell me that if you were doing the best you cold in your day job -- if you were to constantly read a bunch of posts made by the people you work for (be they customers or otherwise); calling you a liar, incompetent, someone who should be replaced by another who knows what they're doing...,etc; that your attitude and job performance might be impacted negatively; and/or any passion you might have for the project dissipate.
Again, the people at Cryptic aren't machines. They're human beings and they have good days bad days, can be buoyed up by a compliment, and torn down by a negative remark.
MMO forums are notorious for leaning to the very negative aspect because those happy with the game, or who just use it as an occasional pastime to relieve stress themselves; don't venture or post in the forums often (if at all) - they just log in and play STO. the ones who come are most likely very passionate about the game and how the Star Trek material is handled; and become very vocal when they see/experience something in game they don't like; and have no qualms coming here, sometimes (not all the time) venting in the worst way possible; and then expect an immediate answer or resolution.
I don't call it 'weak' to want to try and manage expectations, or try and minimize any negative atmosphere on the forums by waiting to talk about content or changes until said content/change is 90+% certain to be coming to the game (and their still have been situations where some aspect of something announced since F2P has been further changed , or delayed <-- and when this has happened the STO forums erupt passionately and more often then not, trend to swell in negative posts.)
Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012 PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
Lets make sure we're both on the same page, so to speak, before going any further. There are far less dev posts these days than there used to be(branflakes isnt a dev). It sounds like we both agree they do not post as often because they got their feelings hurt by a small group of rude people.
So are they still reading the forums as much as they used to or not? If they are, then it is just as much a "distraction" now as it has ever been. There are still a small number of rude people who say rude things; that hasnt changed. So if that is what hurts the devs feeling, that is no different now than in the past.
So what has anyone gained from their lack of communication? If they are still reading the forums, then they are still being "distracted" and still getting their feelings hurt, and the playerbase has far less information about the game's development.
Now with all of that said, I have a very strong disagreement with punishing a large group of innocent people because of the bad behavior of a small group of people. Like I have said before, the majority of forum posters are well behaved people. A small group is loud and rude. You may not like the loud and rude group, but that does not justify cutting off your well behaved people from all the information they used to get.
Yeah, they don't post as often as they have in the past... but there is still evidence that they read a lot of the posts. When Season 7 came, there was a intentional change that removed all Dil rewards from STF's... which didn't go well, but got changed back.
Dstahl was in the main thread and replied to at least half of the posts, when he could just as easily avoided all the harsh (though justified) things they said. And that's just one example, but a good one.
As for distractions, for the most part, the devs read the forums on their own time (ie not their work time, unless that's part of their assigned work day). Reading no-good-reason flame posts would only stress them... which would distract them, I think. And because they were getting a lot of this by posting everything they planned, they changed their policy, to try and avoid the unnecessary abuse.
In a way, they were giving the playerbase what they wanted, at the time.
As for 'punishing' the larger group, I'm more in the gray area on that one: I don't mind being in the dark, and I fail to see how others like to be in the loop so much... but that's just me. And whatever my response to a particular game item, the devs are the ones who keep STO running and growing, so I want to make sure they do as good as they can. Hence, I want them to avoid the minority, so I'm perfectly fine with how things are.
Edit: oh, and I agree with a lot of what crypticarmsman said above me
Was named Trek17.
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
Basically, everything I said in my last post still applies. Neither they nor we have gained anything from their lesser communication. There is still a vocal minority saying rude things. If the devs still read the forums on a regular basis, they are still getting their feelings hurt. No change there. However, now we get far less information about the game's development. So the situation has not improved for the devs, and all the well behaved forum readers no longer get info. No one has benefited.
It was not the majority of forum posters who did that, only a vocal minority. That means Cryptic caved in and changed their "policies" because of the behavior of a minority, not because of the behavior of the majority. That is straight up weakling behavior.
A lot of things made them change. They used to share stuff on STOked, Priority One, the devs used to post stuff constantly, Engineering reports, tweet leaks, forum posts, etc etc. People ruined it, the few always ruin it for the masses....
For ex.. you remember when Bort posted about the lock boxes on Jupiterforce's forums and Massively took it and ran with it. Saying that Bort said STO would just drop the EU... The devs were dark for a long time after that. It was an instant halt in flow of information. It's something I will never forget that Massively did. It was tabloidish and they can go to hell.
People used to treat the Engineering reports as Gospel and go nuts over so called 'promises'. They don't promise you anything EVER... nothing should ever be considered a promise and if you think they owe you anything you are crazy. The game is free so it's take it or leave it and if you pay, their only promise to you is access to the shard and the perks for Gold for the time you have payed for. You get nothing, You loose, Good Day Sir!
Something happened with STOked... not sure what it was, but you know there was some bad mojo there and it was around the same time as the Massively fiasco...
People can't seem to realize that directions can change in business. You set out on a goal and sometimes half way there you realize that the goal line has changed or you realize it's much further or you have to do things differently. I worked on a multi-million dollar distributed processing platform that took an extra year to get out the door and we started chopping features that are just now being addressed a year later. Sometimes TRIBBLE like that happens. Get over it, don't call human beings who show up to work every day and bust their humps a bunch of liars.
So you know what.... I am glad they don't leak much anymore, I am glad they don't really share anything new with podcasts that the community doesn't already know is coming. I am glad they only release fluff news just prior to hitting holodeck after it's been sterilized and cleansed to avoid any misconceptions or promises that the community tends to latch on and scream like rabid monkey's when they don't show up. The community deserves it.
/angry
join Date: Sep 2009 - I want my changeling lava lamp!
No, what people "deserve" is based on their own actions, not those of others. The small group of rude people deserve to be kicked out. The majority of well behaved folks do not "deserve" to be treated differently. So if your argument is based on what people "deserve", then it just fell apart.
No, what people "deserve" is based on their own actions, not those of others. The small group of rude people deserve to be kicked out. The majority of well behaved folks do not "deserve" to be treated differently. So if your argument is based on what people "deserve", then it just fell apart.
This is not 5th Grade Cryptic is not a school teacher giving out gold stars.
Whenever a new season comes out it's really hard to find the so called good forums under the mass crazy of
Cryptic fail again, Lock boxes are killing the game, STO is dying because Cryptic, PWE overlords are greedy and want our money, The devs are liars, Cryptic hates the KDF and they wont get my money, this game is dying I'm going to X game....and my favorite..."Oh looks like nothing new in this season I'll be back in 6 months"
This is not 5th Grade Cryptic is not a school teacher giving out gold stars.
Whenever a new season comes out it's really hard to find the so called good forums under the mass crazy of
Cryptic fail again, Lock boxes are killing the game, STO is dying because Cryptic, PWE overlords are greedy and want our money, The devs are liars, Cryptic hates the KDF and they wont get my money, this game is dying I'm going to X game....and my favorite..."Oh looks like nothing new in this season I'll be back in 6 months"
Warning: the following posts contains actual "logic" that is going to disprove your argument. If you are afraid of "logic" or having your argument disproven, then read at your own risk.
Now then,
The reason you think those examples are the "mass" that the good folks are buried under is because those are what grab your attention the most. To use a real life example, imagine you are in a restaurant sitting next to a crying baby. All the people sitting around you may be talking quietly, but the crying baby is what you remember because it is what got on your nerves.
However, that does not change the fact that the majority of the people in the restaurant were talking quitely. Likewise, just because a small group of rude people may get your attention and annoy you, it does not change the fact that the majority of people are behaving well. You just dont notice the well behaved people as much as you notice the few who dont.
Warning: the following posts contains actual "logic" that is going to disprove your argument. If you are afraid of "logic" or having your argument disproven, then read at your own risk.
Those sentences have just seriously lowered our opinions of you imo, plus made possible assumptions about a number of things about you...
No one who's actually a respectful adult talks to others that way; we're not children
Was named Trek17.
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
Those sentences have just seriously lowered our opinions of you imo, plus made possible assumptions about a number of things about you...
No one who's actually a respectful adult talks to others that way; we're not children
Ad hominem has always been the last resort of people who do not have a real counter-argument. If you disagree with the logic of my previous post, then feel free to explain why. But trying to attack me personally only shows you have no real counter-argument.
Ad hominem has always been the last resort of people who do not have a real counter-argument. If you disagree with the logic of my previous post, then feel free to explain why. But trying to attack me personally only shows you have no real counter-argument.
Oh, I don't doubt your logic (and I could argue against it), but it's how you presented it that I have issues with... specifically with the 'Warning' bit.
It came off as condescending, and generally the type of tone you might say to a stupid person, or a child... neither of which is a good thing to imply to a group of adults.
Was named Trek17.
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
Oh, I don't doubt your logic (and I could argue against it), but it's how you presented it that I have issues with... specifically with the 'Warning' bit.
It came off as condescending, and generally the type of tone you might say to a stupid person, or a child... neither of which is a good thing to imply to a group of adults.
The "warning" comment was tongue in cheek, and if you took it otherwise I will simply tell you that it was said with good humor. However, regardless of your misinterpretation of my meaning, nothing I actually said was a specific personal attack against any person in this thread. You, on the other hand, proceeded to attack my personal character, resorting to the age old ad hominem strategy of the person who has lost an argument based on logic.
Warning: the following posts contains actual "logic" that is going to disprove your argument. If you are afraid of "logic" or having your argument disproven, then read at your own risk.
Now then,
The reason you think those examples are the "mass" that the good folks are buried under is because those are what grab your attention the most. To use a real life example, imagine you are in a restaurant sitting next to a crying baby. All the people sitting around you may be talking quietly, but the crying baby is what you remember because it is what got on your nerves.
However, that does not change the fact that the majority of the people in the restaurant were talking quitely. Likewise, just because a small group of rude people may get your attention and annoy you, it does not change the fact that the majority of people are behaving well. You just dont notice the well behaved people as much as you notice the few who dont.
ummmm no, what actually stands out in the hordes of madness that happens on the forums are the nice posts.
I come on the forums to see the crazy posts and the madness if there was no madness I would come on less.
The "warning" comment was tongue in cheek, and if you took it otherwise I will simply tell you that it was said with good humor. However, regardless of your misinterpretation of my meaning, nothing I actually said was a specific personal attack against any person in this thread. You, on the other hand, proceeded to attack my personal character, resorting to the age old ad hominem strategy of the person who has lost an argument based on logic.
I did attack your character, but only because of that misunderstanding... because it came off as condescending, initially.
But still, I'm not quite agreeing with your logic: blowing off the majority in favor of a few or one group not being okay sometimes. If I remember correctly, Kirk and crew did exactly that to save Spock (Starfleet = majority and Spock = one), and everything turned out for the better because of it.
Sometimes favoring the few can get you better results. Did it for Cryptic? That remains to be seen, but I don't blame them for trying.
Was named Trek17.
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
I did attack your character, but only because of that misunderstanding... because it came off as condescending, initially.
But still, I'm not quite agreeing with your logic: blowing off the majority in favor of a few or one group not being okay sometimes. If I remember correctly, Kirk and crew did exactly that to save Spock (Starfleet = majority and Spock = one), and everything turned out for the better because of it.
Sometimes favoring the few can get you better results. Did it for Cryptic? That remains to be seen, but I don't blame them for trying.
If you really want to cite Trek as an example, one of it's most famous quotes ever is from Spock: "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few". He was right, although Cryptic has done the reverse and punished the many for the deeds of the few.
If you really want to cite Trek as an example, one of it's most famous quotes ever is from Spock: "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few". He was right, although Cryptic has done the reverse and punished the many for the deeds of the few.
That's just it though: ST has examples of both working (Spock saved the Enterprise with 'many', ensuring that the Enterprise would keep saving the day... and Kirk saved Spock with 'few/one', ensuring the Earth was not destroyed in Voyage Home, among other acts that helped the Enterprise save the day), so we'd just be going in circles on that front.
But either way, I'm okay with what Cryptic is doing on that aspect, and you aren't. And I'm feeling we're not gonna get much further than that.
Was named Trek17.
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
Bottom line: alienating your customer base, fostering antagonism and distancing yourselves, is bad business.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
___________________________
Joined April 2008. Lifetime Subscriber. Original member of the original 2nd Fleet.
Expended $1,961 USD on this game - regretting it all. This game and some of its staff disappointed me, time and again, per every single cent spent!!!
Bottom line: alienating your customer base, fostering antagonism and distancing yourselves, is bad business.
really cause the dev's do pop in the forums from time to time....they jsut resently had a Q&A session...they are not alienating players....they are just not showing all their cards, and are going to keep what they working on a secret till we get closer to may.
I do hope you didn't stop there with my post, though. I know it was a bit long, but I think that with all the angst in this thread, which I contributed to, it serves a useful purpose :cool:
Course not. You do have some really good ideas in there and to solve them, once again I bring out territory control. You have your standard invasions, but you could also have trade and negotiation based deals. That by itself adds thousands of possibilities.
It would also give us plenty of stuff to do while Cryptic turns out story missions.
And I've said it before, and I've said it again. Cryptic needs to turn Foundry missions into real missions. Many are just that good.
Work shifts, pretty constantly. When we show our work, we get harangued for not delivering on perceived promises, or not putting things out 'on time.' When we don't show our work, people think we twiddle our thumbs all day. :::shrug:::
ETA: We work in an iterative manner. We make things quickly with the mindset that we are willing to change them drastically, or toss them out if they are't good, aren't fun, or aren't feasible. This is not a problem of not keeping to goals. I actually much prefer this to setting off in some direction, and trudging along no matter what, even if no one on the team believes in it. Iteration is all about trying things out. We may have built something, tried it, and then gone back to the drawing board on it.
Nay sayers gonna nay say.
Personaly if I were in charge the account server would be buggy, with things like account deletions or roll backs mysteriously affecting players..........
But I don't tolerate BS well.
Can't make everyone happy all of the time. And some people thing its their right to be made happy all of the time.
As a time traveller, Am I supposed to pack underwear or underwhen?
Not everything you see on the internet is true - Abraham Lincoln
Of course, Cryptic will not budge on the not charging for mission content.
...
I'm fine with Cryptic doing whatever they need to to make money, but I would like to see them showcase their products within mission content.
...
Really, it would not hurt Cryptic to put more focus on actual mission content in the game.
...
Anyway, I feel that this could be more of a Star Trek game AND more of an MMO at the same time. So much of the existing gameplay feels shallow and half-baked. Addressing that and delivering official mission content more regularly would benefit Cryptic greatly...
First you acknowledge that they won't make mission content...then you try to devise ways for them to do it.
Sorry mate, but you tripped yourself.
I doubt Cryptic doesn't want or can't make mission content, it's probably very simple - they've gone over their numbers and the fiscal reality is that they don't see market in it that would provide sufficient ROI...compared to lock boxes and dilithium-sucking fleet goals (although that's a rather pyramid scheme like the real global economy - amount of ships you can churn out into the Star Trek universe is finite and once they run out of that they're facing collapse as they struggle to find new means to squeeze the byline out of).
Personally, I think it's fine focusing on systems over content...providing that those systems actually renders playable mechanics with replay value; procedurally generated content to a degree, if you shall (such as a healthy and active PvP community, or a lively PvE one).
Problem is that the current systems being introduced are merely additional treadmills, and you can only stockpile so many until the players quit to find more attractive treadmills (or press-benches) elsewhere - and take their friends with them.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
___________________________
Joined April 2008. Lifetime Subscriber. Original member of the original 2nd Fleet.
Expended $1,961 USD on this game - regretting it all. This game and some of its staff disappointed me, time and again, per every single cent spent!!!
Four would be required to deliver an episode per month resulting in an episode being released each monday for the first four mondays of each month.
How much should they be paid? $80.00 per episode, minus the cost of cryptic-supplied gold account.
I didn't want to post in this thread again, but this part of your post is astounding. Have you been working on a foundry mission lately? One good foundry mission can take up to 40h to make. Probably more for some specific and very long missions. That's just one week of work, and you want people to work on them with a schedule, delivery dates, for a full week of work for such a ridiculous amount of money?
This isn't even a compensation, it's alms. And not a decent one because you give more in proportion to homeless people playing music in the streets for 2-3 minutes of fun. I hope you never run a buisness, sir, because you'll learn the hard way that if you want people to keep working for you, and if you want them to work hard to deliver quality stuff, you have to pay them well. Which means really above the minimum wage.
Currently authors are providing content to cryptic for free. We do that on our leisure time, but if there's any schedule or pressure to deliver content, then it's a job and you have to pay people accodingly, not like slaves you give alms for their good work.
The reality is, when you give in to someone's "bullying"(for lack of a better word) you are letting them control you. And letting someone control you is weak behavior. But putting aside their own ego, the devs should care enough about the majority of their customers who are well behaved not to cut them off because a small group of people misbehaved. Instead, they decided to punish the majority of people who were well behaved and not share info with them anymore just because a small group of people said mean things. So yes, on both accounts I call that weak behavior.
If they change back now because of posts like this, isn't it the same thing?
Former moderator of these forums. Lifetime sub since before launch. Been here since before public betas. Foundry author of "Franklin Drake Must Die".
I didn't want to post in this thread again, but this part of your post is astounding. Have you been working on a foundry mission lately? One good foundry mission can take up to 40h to make. Probably more for some specific and very long missions. That's just one week of work, and you want people to work on them with a schedule, delivery dates, for a full week of work for such a ridiculous amount of money?
This isn't even a compensation, it's alms. And not a decent one because you give more in proportion to homeless people playing music in the streets for 2-3 minutes of fun. I hope you never run a buisness, sir, because you'll learn the hard way that if you want people to keep working for you, and if you want them to work hard to deliver quality stuff, you have to pay them well. Which means really above the minimum wage.
Currently authors are providing content to cryptic for free. We do that on our leisure time, but if there's any schedule or pressure to deliver content, then it's a job and you have to pay people accodingly, not like slaves you give alms for their good work.
80 bucks > Free?
Also, the use of the word slave is inaccurate. Sweatshop worker is far more accurate. Currently, the foundry folks who are doing all this work for free are far more akin to a slave than one who would get paid a low wage for doing the same work.
If they change back now because of posts like this, isn't it the same thing?
They should not make any changes based upon anyone's posts in this specific thread. What they should do is realize that they have allowed a rude minority of people cause them to completely change the way they communicate with the well behaved majority of their community. And by allowing a vocal minority of people force them to change their policies, they have made themselves their slaves.
Also, the use of the word slave is inaccurate. Sweatshop worker is far more accurate. Currently, the foundry folks who are doing all this work for free are far more akin to a slave than one who would get paid a low wage for doing the same work.
PWE can't use contractors to do work that employees do without having substantial differences between job duties. They can't pay people less than minimum wage for work, and they have to comply with California and US labor laws, which among other things means they'd have to have valid employment contracts with these folks, give them benefits in accordance with other content artists, and pay them at least minimum wage.
80 bucks wouldn't get them a mission under those terms. It wouldn't get them a "kill five" with two text dialogs.
If you can give them any kind of orders at all, such as deadlines, quotas, requirements, they're employees. If you give them any compensation with a monetary value, except in very narrowly defined circumstances comprising a contest, they're employees. Same reason they can't compensate us moderators.
Former moderator of these forums. Lifetime sub since before launch. Been here since before public betas. Foundry author of "Franklin Drake Must Die".
The most Cryptic can do is compensate with game assets (items, dilithium, zen, gold sub, whatever).
I'm surprised they even allow "volunteers". After the UO debacle none does that anymore...unless they're very naive/benevolent or very cheap...
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
___________________________
Joined April 2008. Lifetime Subscriber. Original member of the original 2nd Fleet.
Expended $1,961 USD on this game - regretting it all. This game and some of its staff disappointed me, time and again, per every single cent spent!!!
Comments
Lets make sure we're both on the same page, so to speak, before going any further. There are far less dev posts these days than there used to be(branflakes isnt a dev). It sounds like we both agree they do not post as often because they got their feelings hurt by a small group of rude people.
So are they still reading the forums as much as they used to or not? If they are, then it is just as much a "distraction" now as it has ever been. There are still a small number of rude people who say rude things; that hasnt changed. So if that is what hurts the devs feeling, that is no different now than in the past.
So what has anyone gained from their lack of communication? If they are still reading the forums, then they are still being "distracted" and still getting their feelings hurt, and the playerbase has far less information about the game's development.
Now with all of that said, I have a very strong disagreement with punishing a large group of innocent people because of the bad behavior of a small group of people. Like I have said before, the majority of forum posters are well behaved people. A small group is loud and rude. You may not like the loud and rude group, but that does not justify cutting off your well behaved people from all the information they used to get.
Really? You realize if it was discovered they didn't read the replies; you'd then get posters claiming they completely ignore player feedback; and thus it's the reason 'STO sucks' and/pr 'Cryptic is incompetent'... etc.
[And again, I'm NOT saying this -- I posted the above to show how I believe the forum vocal forum readership would respond -- and we've seen exactly this in certain areas as - for a LONG time, a lot of avid PvPers believed no Cryptic employee was reading anything posted in the PvP section -- and I think somme still do; even though they've had Brandon and borticus posting in there that the devs do read the PvP forum posts.]
You can't tell me that if you were doing the best you cold in your day job -- if you were to constantly read a bunch of posts made by the people you work for (be they customers or otherwise); calling you a liar, incompetent, someone who should be replaced by another who knows what they're doing...,etc; that your attitude and job performance might be impacted negatively; and/or any passion you might have for the project dissipate.
Again, the people at Cryptic aren't machines. They're human beings and they have good days bad days, can be buoyed up by a compliment, and torn down by a negative remark.
MMO forums are notorious for leaning to the very negative aspect because those happy with the game, or who just use it as an occasional pastime to relieve stress themselves; don't venture or post in the forums often (if at all) - they just log in and play STO. the ones who come are most likely very passionate about the game and how the Star Trek material is handled; and become very vocal when they see/experience something in game they don't like; and have no qualms coming here, sometimes (not all the time) venting in the worst way possible; and then expect an immediate answer or resolution.
I don't call it 'weak' to want to try and manage expectations, or try and minimize any negative atmosphere on the forums by waiting to talk about content or changes until said content/change is 90+% certain to be coming to the game (and their still have been situations where some aspect of something announced since F2P has been further changed , or delayed <-- and when this has happened the STO forums erupt passionately and more often then not, trend to swell in negative posts.)
PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
Dstahl was in the main thread and replied to at least half of the posts, when he could just as easily avoided all the harsh (though justified) things they said. And that's just one example, but a good one.
As for distractions, for the most part, the devs read the forums on their own time (ie not their work time, unless that's part of their assigned work day). Reading no-good-reason flame posts would only stress them... which would distract them, I think. And because they were getting a lot of this by posting everything they planned, they changed their policy, to try and avoid the unnecessary abuse.
In a way, they were giving the playerbase what they wanted, at the time.
As for 'punishing' the larger group, I'm more in the gray area on that one: I don't mind being in the dark, and I fail to see how others like to be in the loop so much... but that's just me. And whatever my response to a particular game item, the devs are the ones who keep STO running and growing, so I want to make sure they do as good as they can. Hence, I want them to avoid the minority, so I'm perfectly fine with how things are.
Edit: oh, and I agree with a lot of what crypticarmsman said above me
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
A lot of things made them change. They used to share stuff on STOked, Priority One, the devs used to post stuff constantly, Engineering reports, tweet leaks, forum posts, etc etc. People ruined it, the few always ruin it for the masses....
For ex.. you remember when Bort posted about the lock boxes on Jupiterforce's forums and Massively took it and ran with it. Saying that Bort said STO would just drop the EU... The devs were dark for a long time after that. It was an instant halt in flow of information. It's something I will never forget that Massively did. It was tabloidish and they can go to hell.
People used to treat the Engineering reports as Gospel and go nuts over so called 'promises'. They don't promise you anything EVER... nothing should ever be considered a promise and if you think they owe you anything you are crazy. The game is free so it's take it or leave it and if you pay, their only promise to you is access to the shard and the perks for Gold for the time you have payed for. You get nothing, You loose, Good Day Sir!
Something happened with STOked... not sure what it was, but you know there was some bad mojo there and it was around the same time as the Massively fiasco...
People can't seem to realize that directions can change in business. You set out on a goal and sometimes half way there you realize that the goal line has changed or you realize it's much further or you have to do things differently. I worked on a multi-million dollar distributed processing platform that took an extra year to get out the door and we started chopping features that are just now being addressed a year later. Sometimes TRIBBLE like that happens. Get over it, don't call human beings who show up to work every day and bust their humps a bunch of liars.
So you know what.... I am glad they don't leak much anymore, I am glad they don't really share anything new with podcasts that the community doesn't already know is coming. I am glad they only release fluff news just prior to hitting holodeck after it's been sterilized and cleansed to avoid any misconceptions or promises that the community tends to latch on and scream like rabid monkey's when they don't show up. The community deserves it.
/angry
No, what people "deserve" is based on their own actions, not those of others. The small group of rude people deserve to be kicked out. The majority of well behaved folks do not "deserve" to be treated differently. So if your argument is based on what people "deserve", then it just fell apart.
This is not 5th Grade Cryptic is not a school teacher giving out gold stars.
Whenever a new season comes out it's really hard to find the so called good forums under the mass crazy of
Cryptic fail again, Lock boxes are killing the game, STO is dying because Cryptic, PWE overlords are greedy and want our money, The devs are liars, Cryptic hates the KDF and they wont get my money, this game is dying I'm going to X game....and my favorite..."Oh looks like nothing new in this season I'll be back in 6 months"
Warning: the following posts contains actual "logic" that is going to disprove your argument. If you are afraid of "logic" or having your argument disproven, then read at your own risk.
Now then,
The reason you think those examples are the "mass" that the good folks are buried under is because those are what grab your attention the most. To use a real life example, imagine you are in a restaurant sitting next to a crying baby. All the people sitting around you may be talking quietly, but the crying baby is what you remember because it is what got on your nerves.
However, that does not change the fact that the majority of the people in the restaurant were talking quitely. Likewise, just because a small group of rude people may get your attention and annoy you, it does not change the fact that the majority of people are behaving well. You just dont notice the well behaved people as much as you notice the few who dont.
No one who's actually a respectful adult talks to others that way; we're not children
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
Ad hominem has always been the last resort of people who do not have a real counter-argument. If you disagree with the logic of my previous post, then feel free to explain why. But trying to attack me personally only shows you have no real counter-argument.
It came off as condescending, and generally the type of tone you might say to a stupid person, or a child... neither of which is a good thing to imply to a group of adults.
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
The "warning" comment was tongue in cheek, and if you took it otherwise I will simply tell you that it was said with good humor. However, regardless of your misinterpretation of my meaning, nothing I actually said was a specific personal attack against any person in this thread. You, on the other hand, proceeded to attack my personal character, resorting to the age old ad hominem strategy of the person who has lost an argument based on logic.
ummmm no, what actually stands out in the hordes of madness that happens on the forums are the nice posts.
I come on the forums to see the crazy posts and the madness if there was no madness I would come on less.
But still, I'm not quite agreeing with your logic: blowing off the majority in favor of a few or one group not being okay sometimes. If I remember correctly, Kirk and crew did exactly that to save Spock (Starfleet = majority and Spock = one), and everything turned out for the better because of it.
Sometimes favoring the few can get you better results. Did it for Cryptic? That remains to be seen, but I don't blame them for trying.
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
If you really want to cite Trek as an example, one of it's most famous quotes ever is from Spock: "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few". He was right, although Cryptic has done the reverse and punished the many for the deeds of the few.
But either way, I'm okay with what Cryptic is doing on that aspect, and you aren't. And I'm feeling we're not gonna get much further than that.
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
___________________________
Joined April 2008. Lifetime Subscriber. Original member of the original 2nd Fleet.
Expended $1,961 USD on this game - regretting it all. This game and some of its staff disappointed me, time and again, per every single cent spent!!!
really cause the dev's do pop in the forums from time to time....they jsut resently had a Q&A session...they are not alienating players....they are just not showing all their cards, and are going to keep what they working on a secret till we get closer to may.
I think those words lost all meaning a long time ago. :P
Course not. You do have some really good ideas in there and to solve them, once again I bring out territory control. You have your standard invasions, but you could also have trade and negotiation based deals. That by itself adds thousands of possibilities.
It would also give us plenty of stuff to do while Cryptic turns out story missions.
And I've said it before, and I've said it again. Cryptic needs to turn Foundry missions into real missions. Many are just that good.
Nay sayers gonna nay say.
Personaly if I were in charge the account server would be buggy, with things like account deletions or roll backs mysteriously affecting players..........
But I don't tolerate BS well.
Can't make everyone happy all of the time. And some people thing its their right to be made happy all of the time.
Not everything you see on the internet is true - Abraham Lincoln
Occidere populo et effercio confractus
First you acknowledge that they won't make mission content...then you try to devise ways for them to do it.
Sorry mate, but you tripped yourself.
I doubt Cryptic doesn't want or can't make mission content, it's probably very simple - they've gone over their numbers and the fiscal reality is that they don't see market in it that would provide sufficient ROI...compared to lock boxes and dilithium-sucking fleet goals (although that's a rather pyramid scheme like the real global economy - amount of ships you can churn out into the Star Trek universe is finite and once they run out of that they're facing collapse as they struggle to find new means to squeeze the byline out of).
Personally, I think it's fine focusing on systems over content...providing that those systems actually renders playable mechanics with replay value; procedurally generated content to a degree, if you shall (such as a healthy and active PvP community, or a lively PvE one).
Problem is that the current systems being introduced are merely additional treadmills, and you can only stockpile so many until the players quit to find more attractive treadmills (or press-benches) elsewhere - and take their friends with them.
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Joined April 2008. Lifetime Subscriber. Original member of the original 2nd Fleet.
Expended $1,961 USD on this game - regretting it all. This game and some of its staff disappointed me, time and again, per every single cent spent!!!
I didn't want to post in this thread again, but this part of your post is astounding. Have you been working on a foundry mission lately? One good foundry mission can take up to 40h to make. Probably more for some specific and very long missions. That's just one week of work, and you want people to work on them with a schedule, delivery dates, for a full week of work for such a ridiculous amount of money?
This isn't even a compensation, it's alms. And not a decent one because you give more in proportion to homeless people playing music in the streets for 2-3 minutes of fun. I hope you never run a buisness, sir, because you'll learn the hard way that if you want people to keep working for you, and if you want them to work hard to deliver quality stuff, you have to pay them well. Which means really above the minimum wage.
Currently authors are providing content to cryptic for free. We do that on our leisure time, but if there's any schedule or pressure to deliver content, then it's a job and you have to pay people accodingly, not like slaves you give alms for their good work.
God, lvl 60 CW. 17k.
If they change back now because of posts like this, isn't it the same thing?
80 bucks > Free?
Also, the use of the word slave is inaccurate. Sweatshop worker is far more accurate. Currently, the foundry folks who are doing all this work for free are far more akin to a slave than one who would get paid a low wage for doing the same work.
They should not make any changes based upon anyone's posts in this specific thread. What they should do is realize that they have allowed a rude minority of people cause them to completely change the way they communicate with the well behaved majority of their community. And by allowing a vocal minority of people force them to change their policies, they have made themselves their slaves.
PWE can't use contractors to do work that employees do without having substantial differences between job duties. They can't pay people less than minimum wage for work, and they have to comply with California and US labor laws, which among other things means they'd have to have valid employment contracts with these folks, give them benefits in accordance with other content artists, and pay them at least minimum wage.
80 bucks wouldn't get them a mission under those terms. It wouldn't get them a "kill five" with two text dialogs.
If you can give them any kind of orders at all, such as deadlines, quotas, requirements, they're employees. If you give them any compensation with a monetary value, except in very narrowly defined circumstances comprising a contest, they're employees. Same reason they can't compensate us moderators.
I'm surprised they even allow "volunteers". After the UO debacle none does that anymore...unless they're very naive/benevolent or very cheap...
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Joined April 2008. Lifetime Subscriber. Original member of the original 2nd Fleet.
Expended $1,961 USD on this game - regretting it all. This game and some of its staff disappointed me, time and again, per every single cent spent!!!
Getting paid in Zen would work. Heh.