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"We have 40+ employees....".......doing what exactly?

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  • orikleinoriklein Member Posts: 60 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    In hindsight, those at Cryptic really did some miraculous work with just 24-25 people up until Perfect World took over. They essentially was like Atlas in having the Star Trek Universe on their backs.

    So they really should be applauded.

    I've always personally maintained that, given the vastly limited resources they had to work with, the team that actually built STO has done an amazing job.
    They have performed the technological equivalent of shoving an elephant onto a clown car.

    That being said, so many things gone wrong with this MMO onto such a point that to say it leaves much to be desired is an understatement.
    And, in the end, you judge a product by the end result and what it delivers (especially compared to industry standards), as a consumer, and efforts made by dev don't calculate in.

    Compounded by the horrid customer experience, lack of customer support, and some other related issues...
    All you're left with is to shrug and sigh sadly while thinking "what could've been".
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  • snoggymack22snoggymack22 Member Posts: 7,084 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    syberghost wrote: »
    They used to tell us everything they were working on. But then, every time something slipped or had to be scrapped because it didn't work out, everybody started screaming "LIAR!" at them. So they stopped.

    To be really fair, they used to tell us everything they wanted to or might be working on. And it would sit there for ages on the Engineering Report. When things like new hair tech, Children of Khan or Exploration revamp never happened, folks kind of got prickly about that.

    Most people only started screaming "liar" because a certain head honcho did lie a bunch of times. Before and after he went to work for Zynga.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • tacofangstacofangs Member Posts: 2,951 Cryptic Developer
    edited February 2013
    malkarris wrote: »
    The forum ate my post, and I'm too tired to try and put it together again, so here's the TLDR version.

    No one at Cryptic tells the playerbase anything about what they are working on until its already on the server, either holodeck or tribble or a few days away from that. As a result, since we have no proof that you are doing anything we think your aren't. Not logical, but human. If you want people to believe that you are working on something, you have to show them the proof. For instance, season 7, have a dev blog about how you created New Romulus. The no longer season 8, have a dev blog about whatever it is you are doing. At any time, have a dev blog about how you tracked down and got rid of some bug. Like your math teacher said all those years ago, show your work for credit. And I know you TAco aren't in charge of all of these things, I'm using the collective you. That is why we think you don't work on things, you never show us that you do.

    Work shifts, pretty constantly. When we show our work, we get harangued for not delivering on perceived promises, or not putting things out 'on time.' When we don't show our work, people think we twiddle our thumbs all day. :::shrug:::



    ETA: We work in an iterative manner. We make things quickly with the mindset that we are willing to change them drastically, or toss them out if they are't good, aren't fun, or aren't feasible. This is not a problem of not keeping to goals. I actually much prefer this to setting off in some direction, and trudging along no matter what, even if no one on the team believes in it. Iteration is all about trying things out. We may have built something, tried it, and then gone back to the drawing board on it.
    Only YOU can prevent forum fires!
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  • ocp001ocp001 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    tacofangs wrote: »
    Work shifts, pretty constantly. When we show our work, we get harangued for not delivering on perceived promises, or not putting things out 'on time.' When we don't show our work, people think we twiddle our thumbs all day. :::shrug:::

    With respect, "perceived promises" is a bit of a misnomer. Before you joined the Dev team there already was a slew of broken promises. The history of the KDF is a good example.

    Do I think you and the team sit around and stare out the windows? Of course not, I believe you all work as much as a dedicated taco creature/artist can.

    But by the same token, I'd humbly remind you that you're working on what is considered to be one of the greatest sci-if franchises in human history. What should be a AAA MMORPG, and when only a few things trickle out of the studio, people will want to know what's going on.

    As for shift work... I totally sympathize.
  • malkarrismalkarris Member Posts: 797 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    tacofangs wrote: »
    Work shifts, pretty constantly. When we show our work, we get harangued for not delivering on perceived promises, or not putting things out 'on time.' When we don't show our work, people think we twiddle our thumbs all day. :::shrug:::

    Sorry, when I said you, and said it was the collective you, I probably just should have said Cryptic. Cryptic as a whole needs to release information and then stand up to it. So, I don't think you should tweet leak your stuff, I think that you shouldn't actually, since it gives an unfair impression of what is going on (just my opinion, etc). But I think Cryptic should release stuff in an organized manner, so for instance, if the Andorian ship or whatever it is now is coming out on the 28th, I wouldn't want you to tweet leak a pic of the ship. I'd rather have Crytpic put out a single dev blog saying, hey, here's a new ship, here are its stats as they stand right now, here are some pretty pictures, let us know what you think and we plan to have this out on the 28th. And then after that, sure post some more pictures on twitter and such about it. And above all else, be open and honest about it all, even if it falls behind, just own up and say sorry.

    But your first sentenance says a lot in my opinion, and in my opinion, it doesn't give me the warm fuzzies.

    EDIT: Sorry just saw you edit (By the way, what does ETA stand for, never saw it before used like that). So, slightly more warm fuzzies. Not really how I would like to work, but it a plan, sure. But if that is the case with all of these "borken promises" then I think people would be more williing to forgive if cryptic had said that up front. Also, if its really like that where out of ten ideas that make it far enough for someone to say something about them only one actually get into the game (the impression I got from your words), maybe you would be much better off saying nothing. On the other hand, I'm saying that knowing that is your development plan and all, so I still think more knowledge is always good.
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  • leviathan99#2867 leviathan99 Member Posts: 7,747 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    ocp001 wrote: »
    With respect, "perceived promises" is a bit of a misnomer. Before you joined the Dev team there already was a slew of broken promises. The history of the KDF is a good example.

    Do I think you and the team sit around and stare out the windows? Of course not, I believe you all work as much as a dedicated taco creature/artist can.

    But by the same token, I'd humbly remind you that you're working on what is considered to be one of the greatest sci-if franchises in human history. What should be a AAA MMORPG, and when only a few things trickle out of the studio, people will want to know what's going on.

    And the point is that working on something or saying that they are going to do something is not a promise and does not mean that they are going to do it.

    Actual promises are rare.

    Stating that you are doing something doesn't make it a promise in an iterative development model.

    I DO see some promises as having been broken and some serious communications gaffes but I have a real problem with people trying to hold them to forum posts and blogs and PR junkets from years ago.
  • leviathan99#2867 leviathan99 Member Posts: 7,747 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    Maybe what they need to do is say that everything ever said is null, blank slate, and that if they do any of them, it will be a nice surprise.
  • ocp001ocp001 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    And the point is that working on something or saying that they are going to do something is not a promise and does not mean that they are going to do it.

    Actual promises are rare.

    Stating that you are doing something doesn't make it a promise in an iterative development model.

    I DO see some promises as having been broken and some serious communications gaffes but I have a real problem with people trying to hold them to forum posts and blogs and PR junkets from years ago.

    You and I have been here since the beginning, and we could trade points back and forth in true forum negativity, but honestly, I think we both have valid points.

    I'm not holding Cryptic to their broken promises. It's done. I will even agree with you that the expectations people had misconstrued some things into promises.

    But I won't let 3 years of broken promises, bugs and issues disappear under a bunch of feel good PR statements telling me how much there is to do and how wonderful it all is.

    They never once ever said they were sorry for a whole year without content. Where's the accountability? How many chances does Daniel Stahl and PWE need? Your word is your bond.

    This is how a large segment of the player base feels: let down.

    And it's not Any one developers fault. I actually like them all and their posts here. Specially Tacofangs, he has humor.
  • ocp001ocp001 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    Maybe what they need to do is say that everything ever said is null, blank slate, and that if they do any of them, it will be a nice surprise.

    Hey if that was in the state of the game, even if I didn't like it, I would RESPECT the integrity and honesty letting it be known.

    It is worth mentioning I've enjoyed every season release, even if they all felt really short. I'm not trying to rage or be hurtful to anyone's work but my feedback is honestly how I do feel.
  • paragon92518paragon92518 Member Posts: 268
    edited February 2013
    40+ employees....NOT working on additional bridge/costume packs/ship skins.
  • direphoenixdirephoenix Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    Maybe what they need to do is say that everything ever said is null, blank slate, and that if they do any of them, it will be a nice surprise.

    Do you not remember the "subject to change" notes at the end of every one of those features (can't remember the name) where Dan gave us an outline of all the things they were working on, whether they were just ideas, about to be implemented in a test build, or still in the middle of a design phase?

    ...The notes everyone ignored and raged about anyway when the projects changed?

    They can't win. If they tell us what they're working on, we'll rage when plans change, get delayed, or get dropped. If they don't tell us what they're working on, then we claim they're not doing anything.
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  • betawatcherbetawatcher Member Posts: 2 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    Do you not remember the "subject to change" notes at the end of every one of those features (can't remember the name) where Dan gave us an outline of all the things they were working on, whether they were just ideas, about to be implemented in a test build, or still in the middle of a design phase?

    ...The notes everyone ignored and raged about anyway when the projects changed?

    They can't win. If they tell us what they're working on, we'll rage when plans change, get delayed, or get dropped. If they don't tell us what they're working on, then we claim they're not doing anything.

    While it is true that you cant please everybody, your goal should be to please the majority. Therefore a simple poll will determine who the majority(of people who actually voice their opinions) are:

    A) people who would rather have no info and therefore not be disappointed if plans change

    B) people who would rather have info on works in progress and can accept that plans change

    If the devs actually cared about which we wanted, they could have a poll and whichever option got the most votes go with that approach. I repeat the point that while you cant please everyone, you should at least try to please the majority of your customers. So find out what the majority prefer, and do it that way. But thats only IF you care. If you dont care, then you dont bother to even try to find out.
  • neoakiraiineoakiraii Member Posts: 7,468 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    While it is true that you cant please everybody, your goal should be to please the majority. Therefore a simple poll will determine who the majority(of people who actually voice their opinions) are:

    A) people who would rather have no info and therefore not be disappointed if plans change

    B) people who would rather have info on works in progress and can accept that plans change

    If the devs actually cared about which we wanted, they could have a poll and whichever option got the most votes go with that approach. I repeat the point that while you cant please everyone, you should at least try to please the majority of your customers. So find out what the majority prefer, and do it that way. But thats only IF you care. If you dont care, then you dont bother to even try to find out.


    Good luck with that the forums are not their majority, and when we do have polls the players fight with each other asking why are the other players are not voting for what "I" want.
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  • betawatcherbetawatcher Member Posts: 2 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    neoakiraii wrote: »
    Good luck with that the forums are not their majority

    That is correct. And that is why I said:
    a simple poll will determine who the majority(of people who actually voice their opinions) are

    While the forums may not be the majority of the playerbase, they are in fact the majority of the people who care enough to voice their opinions, because they are the main place to voice your opinion at.

    And if the devs are concerned about people giving them a hard time(see Tumerboy's post), then that is a forum centric issue, not something they have to deal with in game. Therefore the issue is specific to the forum community.
  • orikleinoriklein Member Posts: 60 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    tacofangs wrote: »
    When we show our work, we get harangued for not delivering on perceived promises

    Feel free to show it to me. I won't hammer you. But I do provide direct and objective critique, if you care for such raw-honesty feedback.

    tacofangs wrote: »
    When we don't show our work, people think we twiddle our thumbs all day. :::shrug:::

    Well, you could check if you can get clearance to post work-in-progress images, a video of you working that asset you're currently engaged in, a short play test of something that might get scrapped next week.

    Pros: It's cool and it engages the fan base. No one can say you aren't doing anything, either.
    Cons: The forum warriors will enter hysteria mode, hyper-over-analyze every pixel divulged and delve onto a 30-page conspiracy and doom prophecies.
    Counter-Con: They'll get mocked and eventually proven silly geese. :rolleyes: :D

    Just a suggestion.
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    ___________________________
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    Expended $1,961 USD on this game - regretting it all. This game and some of its staff disappointed me, time and again, per every single cent spent!!!
  • diogene0diogene0 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    Easy. If they don't add more quality content they loose their job at some point. Thinking someone would be sabotaging his own company is madness, unless this someone hates his job badly, but i doubt many people who work on video games hate that.

    As usual, let's wait and see. They're working on stuff and i'm sure we'll know what it is later this year.
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  • stirling191stirling191 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    tacofangs wrote: »
    Work shifts, pretty constantly. When we show our work, we get harangued for not delivering on perceived promises, or not putting things out 'on time.' When we don't show our work, people think we twiddle our thumbs all day. :::shrug:::

    No offense intended Taco, but when the impression is given, whether accurate or otherwise, that the dev team's focus is on lockboxes, cheap get rich quick items and lowest common denominator grind systems what do you expect folks to think?

    Want to fix that? Bring back the Engineering Reports. Lay out what's in each of the various stages of production, give little tidbits on what's working, what's not working, what's been discarded, what's being troubleshot and debugged, and what's being conceptualized.

    Have a more substantive dialogue (and by "more substantive" I mean more than "here's a teaser image of something you're not going to see for five months, talk to you then!") with your players and the ones with more than two brain cells to rub together will more than likely work with you.
  • maxvitormaxvitor Member Posts: 2,213 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    Of the thousands of players that enjoy this game, it's pretty arrogant when a few dozen claim to be speaking for the majority. There's a significant proportion of the player base who do not participate in these forum discussions, I seriously doubt they would appreciate remarks being made on their behalf by a very loud, very vocal, but rather small minority. No business that wanted to stay in business would allow their customers to micromanage how the business operates. Giving a blow by blow description of every little thing the developers are doing would be opening the door to armchair generals with zero experience bombarding staff with unrealistic critiques, proposals and demands as well as giving cheats and hackers an open invitation to exploit problems thus revealed. They are already hard pressed trying to make the game as enjoyable as possible for as many people as possible, they are under no obligation to pander to any one group simply because that group makes a lot of noise.
    No doubt they've realized a universal truth that no matter what they do, some people will never be satisfied.
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  • betawatcherbetawatcher Member Posts: 2 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    maxvitor wrote: »
    Of the thousands of players that enjoy this game, it's pretty arrogant when a few dozen claim to be speaking for the majority.

    Fact: the forums are not the majority of the playerbase.

    Fact: the forums are the majority of people who actually care enough to give feedback, whether positive or negative.

    No business that wanted to stay in business would allow their customers to micromanage how the business operates. Giving a blow by blow description of every little thing the developers are doing would be opening the door to armchair generals with zero experience bombarding staff with unrealistic critiques, proposals and demands as well as giving cheats and hackers an open invitation to exploit problems thus revealed.

    And yet that is exactly what Cryptic used to do. They used to give detailed reports of work in progress, however because a vocal minority made a lot of noise they stopped. Note, they did not stop because the majority was complaining, they stopped because a vocal minority was complaining. So that means they allowed a vocal minority to determine how they did things, which is beyond weak.
    No doubt they've realized a universal truth that no matter what they do, some people will never be satisfied.

    Exactly. And since you cant please everyone, you should at least try to please the majority. And the only way to find out the preference of the majority of people of people who actually care enough to tell you what they think is by asking them.
  • deyvaddeyvad Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    Most entertaining thread ever!

    I can only imagine the kind of letters CBS and Paramount received regarding Trek productions.

    I wonder how they react at the grocery store when things are not run as efficiently as they hope, wonder if they call the manager to the floor to teach them how to do their work.

    As far as I'm concerned, PWE/Cryptic is a private company who's first priority is the wellfare of its stockholders, players' expectations will come second unfortunately, this ain't a non-profit organization. Having said that, new players are flocking to the game, therefore I can only assume cryptic must be doing something good.
  • phyrexianherophyrexianhero Member Posts: 768 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    tacofangs wrote: »
    Work shifts, pretty constantly. When we show our work, we get harangued for not delivering on perceived promises, or not putting things out 'on time.' When we don't show our work, people think we twiddle our thumbs all day. :::shrug:::

    You're right that it's a losing proposition, but you could always just pull a Scotty: announce what you're doing, but only announce the upper-end of when it'll be out. That way people are either happy it comes out sooner or satisfied you made the announced timeframe. :)
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  • nileight1nileight1 Member Posts: 249 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    I find it kinda funny that people are posting about how cryptic does or doesn't do their job.
    A lot of these posts are during normal working hours.
    So wtf is everyone else doing, exactly, besides trolling the internets?

    And yes, I do realize that there are folks in other timezones.
  • betawatcherbetawatcher Member Posts: 2 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    nileight1 wrote: »
    I find it kinda funny that people are posting about how cryptic does or doesn't do their job.
    A lot of these posts are during normal working hours.
    So wtf is everyone else doing, exactly, besides trolling the internets?

    And yes, I do realize that there are folks in other timezones.

    Lets just say, hypothetically speaking, that someone is posting on the STO forums at their workplace. In other words, they arent actually doing the job they are being paid to do, they are wasting time. Such a person would deserve some type of punishment, whether a warning or termination or whatever. Anyone who worked for Cryptic would deserve the same, if they were wasting time instead of doing their job. I'm not saying that is the case, only that each person deserves equal punishment if such a hypothetical situation actually existed.
  • neoakiraiineoakiraii Member Posts: 7,468 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    You're right that it's a losing proposition, but you could always just pull a Scotty: announce what you're doing, but only announce the upper-end of when it'll be out. That way people are either happy it comes out sooner or satisfied you made the announced timeframe. :)

    You never worked in marketing have you....you don't show people what they want...you drop little hints to make them want what they don't know, so they are curious and come back for more.... A true victory is to make your players see they were wrong to oppose you in the first place. To force them to acknowledge your greatness.

    Wait, I might have confused marketing with Gul Dukat:D
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  • squidheadjaxsquidheadjax Member Posts: 54 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    neoakiraii wrote: »
    You never worked in marketing have you....you don't show people what they want...you drop little hints to make them want what they don't know, so they are curious and come back for more.... A true victory is to make your players see they were wrong to oppose you in the first place. To force them to acknowledge your greatness.

    Wait, I might have confused marketing with Gul Dukat:D

    "Underhype and overdeliver", what the Scotty principle reduces to, is absolutely in line with that. Hints, not boasts and grand unobtainable visions, and only once the proper groundwork is laid.

    Even setting aside hairsplitting over what's a promise and what isn't, STO's history is the tale of a limbo champion, always squeaking under any bar he sets.
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  • robdmcrobdmc Member Posts: 1,619 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    As far as an appropriate amount of content is concerned when I look at the TV series it usually was a max of 26 episodes a season or about 20 hours of actual content that could be watched in a weekend but when released it is spread out over the year.. I believe the issue is consistency.

    There are a few things that can help with that. We get all the content of a season near the launch of the season. when star bases came out we had half a dozen fleet missions all at once. What usually happens is that we try it all out in one day and then farm one or two items for the rest of the season ignoring the "less profitable" missions. I think if they had of released one of those fleet actions one at a time we would be more likely to play more of the content. This is part of being ahead of the release schedule. That way they already have a set amount of content to be released.

    I do believe the big set back is the new systems that were created and the back log of systems that need to be revamped. The Duty officer system is a great toy but not content in the sense of story. the Starbase system is also a nice system. both new systems took up a bulk of a system. When we got to season 7 the rep system was derived from the fleet system which allowed for more content. a new sector block and New Romulus. As these systems like crafting, PvP or even a level cap increase gets address they will be more inline to address tradition content concerns.

    One of the reason why the Featured Episodes were popular was that it was a new episode to look forward once a week. and this leads back to a steady release in smaller increments.

    I know I love this ambassador mission and I'm glad it is out between seasons.

    In 2011 between the Romulan fe and borg red alerts just before s5, there were no changes at all. season 4 was shooter mode which was only a control overlay to me. that was at least 8 months with no growth.

    Sto is healthier now then ever. Give them a year or 2, they will catch up.
  • byzanathosbyzanathos Member Posts: 100 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    I recon they are logged into the game running around the stations with balloon making guns crashing the server.
  • nileight1nileight1 Member Posts: 249 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    byzanathos wrote: »
    I recon they are logged into the game running around the stations with balloon making guns crashing the server.

    I know that's what I'm doing :D
  • trellabortrellabor Member Posts: 209 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    The 'No news is good news' approach isn't always the case....I think people would prefer anything, even 'We got stuck on XYZ' or whatever. Nobody is expecting Cryptic to bust out people's W2's, iCal's, or Outlook meeting schedule's to audit what they have going on. We're not the IRS.

    Maybe just do some more Dev Blogs, nothing serious.....and maybe when TB/TF makes guest appearances at ESD Zone chat could talk a little more about what's going on at the moment, maybe answer a few questions from people. Why does a 440MB patch take 5-6 hours to implement? Why do items getting fitted/unfitted from our ships take 30, 60, 90 seconds to move from inventory to ship and vice-versa? I can seriously make the changes in Spacedock, beam up and start to leave system before things begin to move. I think a lot of people would also like to know why it seems that bugs which are reported promptly remain in game for months at a time and some never get fixed at all. Why no patches that just apply bug fixes only?
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