You know, given what Cryptic apparently thinks of people who try to bring value to the game... I'm done. Deleting my 4 VAs and looking for a game with devs that actually like their playerbase.
Perhaps Cryptic could fix this by having three loot tables for Foundry content:
1) A table that only applies to missions too short for the Daily and not "Blessed" (see below), and drops nothing but consumables.
2) A table that only applies to missions long enough for the Daily and not "Blessed", and tops out at Green gear, with drop rates similar to the existing one.
3) A table for "blessed" missions, which exceeds the current one by an amount sufficient to encourage Foundry play.
Then the Community Team could periodically check missions out, and if one appears to be an attempt (doesn't have to be a GOOD attempt, just an attempt) to write a decent story and/or quality gameplay, "bless" it so it gets the good loot.
Then give a checkbox for only seeing "blessed" missions, and voila; the Foundry is a relevant part of the user experience for people seeking content, and retains its usefulness for those who want grind as well. Nobody loses anything, but those who want story gain something. Developer workload isn't increased except for the Community Team, and that not by all that much.
If the Community Team can't devote sufficient time to this to be able to keep up, there could also be other solutions to increase the number of "blessed" missions, such as appointing volunteer community moderators for the system. You could start with everybody who's ever had a mission spotlighted; that should be sufficient to get things moving along nicely.
Former moderator of these forums. Lifetime sub since before launch. Been here since before public betas. Foundry author of "Franklin Drake Must Die".
If the Community Team can't devote sufficient time to this to be able to keep up, there could also be other solutions to increase the number of "blessed" missions, such as appointing volunteer community moderators for the system. You could start with everybody who's ever had a mission spotlighted; that should be sufficient to get things moving along nicely.
No. Too much power in the hands of too few, open to corruption and vendetta. Player ratings are good enough.
You know, given what Cryptic apparently thinks of people who try to bring value to the game... I'm done. Deleting my 4 VAs and looking for a game with devs that actually like their playerbase.
Hope you guys have a better time of it.
Don't do anything rash. If you want to leave the game for a while, or even permanently then that's reasonable. If it's causing you more grief than enjoyment then you shouldn't keep playing, but don't delete your characters or do anything which you might end up regretting.
Don't do anything rash. If you want to leave the game for a while, or even permanently then that's reasonable. If it's causing you more grief than enjoyment then you shouldn't keep playing, but don't delete your characters or do anything which you might end up regretting.
Yeah, I rage quit once and just gave all my gear and ECs away on ds9. But then I came back. I had to beg on the Promenade for enough ECs to buy an impulse engine.
People had no sympathy for Bajoran orphans, but they understood the rage quit part. Some guy even gave me some Mark VII phasers so I had a way to earn more ECs. I had to fight a few patrols with no shields in order to buy shields.
...wow. 19 pages and most of it is pro-grinders vs. anti-grinders with a ragequitter thrown in for good measure. This is most definitely not a hot-button topic. Just for the sake of doing it, let's throw in the opinion of a grinder who's just in it for the pretty, pretty explosions instead of the loot. (...hey, what's that sweet-looking van doing across the street?)
It's pretty easy for someone to see what's going on (hey, look, an easy mission! they don't even move and all I have to do is put the ship into park and fire everything until the explosions go away!) and immediately scream 'exploit!' I dunno if it's been mentioned yet or not, but there's a drop limit now. You can't go into a grinder mission and keep farming until you have to start clearing your inventory anymore; once you hit that limit, the only thing that'll reset it is server rollover. It hasn't completely eliminated the problem, but it's a step in the right direction.
And seriously, I have yet to see anything better than a green drop in a grinder yet. (Separate issue, I know; I just ignore that in favor of chains of stuff blowing up.)
Honestly, I love the idea of separating grinders from the storyline-centered missions simply because it gives both camps an easier way to find what they're looking for. Story for story, lewt for lewt. And yeah, the most popular grinders have pretty much overridden the Hot and Top Rated filters for a while now.
Simple solution: anything tagged as a grinder mission becomes immune to ratings/tips (making the Top Rated filter purely for storyline missions), and as far as the Hot filter list goes, split that into story/grinder. Send the people looking for four-star restaurants one direction, send the people looking for fast food the other way. The only thing downvoting missions for what they are does is slowly turn the entire concept into YTMND during its peak, and that goes for grinders and epics alike. (Seriously, I'd only downvote if it was a story mission that's so poorly thought out, it'd end up making a better birdcage liner.)
Now that sleep deprivation is about to completely take over, I'm going to end on that note.
Don't do anything rash. If you want to leave the game for a while, or even permanently then that's reasonable. If it's causing you more grief than enjoyment then you shouldn't keep playing, but don't delete your characters or do anything which you might end up regretting.
I deleted all of my missions and it well worth it. No more urge to log in and check rating. No more headache about the next fabled patch which promises salvation but turns bad to downright stupid. Actually I havent logged in since and Im happy about it.
I deleted all of my missions and it well worth it. No more urge to log in and check rating. No more headache about the next fabled patch which promises salvation but turns bad to downright stupid. Actually I havent logged in since and Im happy about it.
Couldn't you just have unpublished them and accomplished the same thing?
I don't know, maybe I'm too wrapped up in my missions or something but I would feel absolutely sick if one of them were deleted.
Couldn't you just have unpublished them and accomplished the same thing?
I don't know, maybe I'm too wrapped up in my missions or something but I would feel absolutely sick if one of them were deleted.
Nah, I'm with you on that.
I think a lot of folks are impassioned about this and dealing with their frustrations in different fashions. Some are a bit more destructive then others, but, I'm with you, Nag. And for you pendra, I really hope they can recover those for you.
We all have our moments of "oouuuuch" on this topic. For me it was when I looked Klingside and the first story mission was ranked 12th under all grinders yesterday.
But right now, in order to give quality feedback and provide possible directions for solutions we need to look at it from a variety of ways and some of those involve distancing ourselves from our emotional responses.
Granted, all my leads have lead me to 18th century coffee house discussions on Economics but...
Give us two categories, combat centric, and story centric, and we're set. Let us choose the category, or even have it be set automatically (maybe mission length/number of combat encounters) and I think this would solve a lot of people's complaints. The problem right now is the story missions are buried amongst a lot of mindless grinds, which makes people upset. I don't think that many people even care if people want to pew pew, but we would like our story-based missions to get some billing as well.
Amen Nagorak, that's been my main focus as well, seperate them so they do not show on the same list. That is what needs to happen.
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I deleted all of my missions and it well worth it. No more urge to log in and check rating. No more headache about the next fabled patch which promises salvation but turns bad to downright stupid. Actually I havent logged in since and Im happy about it.
Noo..... ;-; that's pretty much the exact opposite of something helpful....
Listen it's very simple, do not blame the players, this is down to Cryptic they turned the economic systems in the game to full on GRIND mode.
Players responded by using any means they could to make the grind a little less painful, the grinder missions are great they serve a purpose in the economy and that's backed by how in demand they are. Just because your story missions are in less demand is no excuse to moan. Story missions were always going to take a back seat in a game that is focused on grind.
No amount of whining at Cryptic (Who really aren't that bothered) is going to change that. Also there is even less of an excuse to whine when the reality those that want story missions will seek them out, they do not need to be marketed to, nor will removing all the grind missions mean people who were never going to play your missions will.
Also the Foundry is an open platform within means and people should be allowed to do what they wish with it within the boundaries of decency and taste... your interpretation of what you think it should be is a tyranny too far in my books.
Where are legitimate in your concerns is the frankly useless search tool that has no real functionality beyond a plain text search. If I was you I would focus my efforts there for a positive change in your current Foundry experience. Whether Cryptic will listen is another matter
I can agree that farming missions have a purpose in the foundry. BUT, massacring enemies shouldn't give the same rewards as story missions. This is why I think they need to ditch the wrapper. the wrapper give you the same reward whether the mission is 16 minutes or 60.... I see that as a fundamental design... issue that is skewing the value of Foundry rewards in favor of grinders... If you got dil and FM rewards that scaled to mission length then that would fix a large part fo the issue.
Noo..... ;-; that's pretty much the exact opposite of something helpful....
Exactly. Those of us who want to play story missions can come here and find them. The grinders on the search list will definitely inhibit those who want to play story missions but don't frequent the forums.
But the notion of just giving up and throwing the whole thing away is less than constructive and really accomplishes nothing.
I've seen it posited on the old CoH forums, CO, STO, etc., that UGC should just go away because of exploiters. That punishes those of us who use UGC as intended far worse than it will ever hurt the exploiters; they'll just go back to whatever they were farming before.
But storytellers and players will lose a fun, immersive side of the game. Why punish us for someone else's waywardness?
The only negative impact the grinders have on me is making it harder to find good story content. Otherwise, what other players do in their own instances doesn't affect me.
That said, calling for a UI better suited for finding the content we want is reasonable and should be pursued.
I can agree that farming missions have a purpose in the foundry. BUT, massacring enemies shouldn't give the same rewards as story missions. This is why I think they need to ditch the wrapper. the wrapper give you the same reward whether the mission is 16 minutes or 60.... I see that as a fundamental design... issue that is skewing the value of Foundry rewards in favor of grinders... If you got dil and FM rewards that scaled to mission length then that would fix a large part fo the issue.
I do not advocate taking away the wrapper and I certainly don't think time spent is a good indicator of what should be rewarded. I've played 30-45 minute missions that had far tighter, better written, and richer storylines than some of the longer missions. Time itself is not a good gauge of a quality mission.
However, I do think it would be prudent to say that enemies that cannot fight back should not award XP or drops.
Farming missions where you fight through waves of enemies may not be my cup of tea, but at least the rewards are earned. But setting up a bunch of defenseless vessels and simply blowing them up is clearly not using the Foundry assets as intended.
Even then, if I hadn't had the misfortune of entering one of these missions because the write up sounded story-like, I would never have know they existed. I would have assumed they were combat grinders, not clay pigeon shooters. They wouldn't have bothered me at all except for cluttering up the search screen.
I do not advocate taking away the wrapper and I certainly don't think time spent is a good indicator of what should be rewarded. I've played 30-45 minute missions that had far tighter, better written, and richer storylines than some of the longer missions. Time itself is not a good gauge of a quality mission.
However, I do think it would be prudent to say that enemies that cannot fight back should not award XP or drops.
Farming missions where you fight through waves of enemies may not be my cup of tea, but at least the rewards are earned. But setting up a bunch of defenseless vessels and simply blowing them up is clearly not using the Foundry assets as intended.
Even then, if I hadn't had the misfortune of entering one of these missions because the write up sounded story-like, I would never have know they existed. I would have assumed they were combat grinders, not clay pigeon shooters. They wouldn't have bothered me at all except for cluttering up the search screen.
Who are you to decide what is and what is not intended? As far as cryptic are concerned time is the only measurement, it's not even logical to assume that defenseless vessels are not intended, if that was the case they would force combat scaling into to episodes because as it stands I can take my JHAS into any of the early Episodes on easy and it's like they don't fire back.
With regards to the wrapper you are right removing it or changing it will do nothing because frankly there are easier ways to earn Dilithium and Fleet Marks than doing a 60 minute Foundry Mission. End of Story.
(not addressed to above poster)
You can't force other users to do what you want them to do, Cryptic have a hard enough time trying to themselves and they are the developers. You are also not the teachers pets in this don't think that because you make story missions and get spotlighted that you deserve on those basis alone to have more influence over developers than others who do not.
Whilst I largely sympathize with story tellers I do not sympathize with bullying, coercion and the general way in which foundry authors are conducting themselves in relation to this issue, it's a very cheap and dirty way that many of you have chosen to go with this and if I am honest it has contributed greatly to the diminishment of your reputations amongst the wider user-base who are more concerned about their daily bread.
With regards to the wrapper you are right removing it or changing it will do nothing because frankly their are easier ways to earn Dilithium and Fleet Marks than doing a 60 minute Foundry Mission. End of Story.
As a story player, I still like the perk. It is one true benefit for Foundry players, whether they play story missions or grinders.
As noted in my previous post, the only reason I even notice the grinders is that they are filling the search lists and making it harder to find the types of missions I enjoy. A number of us (note that I am not yet a Foundry author, just a Foundry player) have stated that what we would like best is for the Foundry UI to make it easier to separate the two types of missions.
As a story player, I still like the perk. It is one true benefit for Foundry players, whether they play story missions or grinders.
As noted in my previous post, the only reason I even notice the grinders is that they are filling the search lists and making it harder to find the types of missions I enjoy. A number of us (note that I am not yet a Foundry author, just a Foundry player) have stated that what we would like best is for the Foundry UI to make it easier to separate the two types of missions.
And I agree that is a (and probably the best) way to move forward with this. Damaging the grinders will not attract more players to the story missions, the popularity of grinders is in no way correlated or linked to that of story missions. If people want to do a story mission they will do it. Removing the grinders will not make more people play story missions.
I do not advocate taking away the wrapper and I certainly don't think time spent is a good indicator of what should be rewarded. I've played 30-45 minute missions that had far tighter, better written, and richer storylines than some of the longer missions. Time itself is not a good gauge of a quality mission.
However, I do think it would be prudent to say that enemies that cannot fight back should not award XP or drops.
Farming missions where you fight through waves of enemies may not be my cup of tea, but at least the rewards are earned. But setting up a bunch of defenseless vessels and simply blowing them up is clearly not using the Foundry assets as intended.
Even then, if I hadn't had the misfortune of entering one of these missions because the write up sounded story-like, I would never have know they existed. I would have assumed they were combat grinders, not clay pigeon shooters. They wouldn't have bothered me at all except for cluttering up the search screen.
the problem with the wrapper is that it's "Do a mission and get this".
Story missions vary greatly in their qualitative and quantitative aspects. Giving the same reward to all missions that qualify makes any mission that isn't short and easy, effectively, less rewarding than those that are.
And I agree that is a (and probably the best) way to move forward with this. Damaging the grinders will not attract more players to the story missions, the popularity of grinders is in no way correlated or linked to that of story missions. If people want to do a story mission they will do it. Removing the grinders will not make more people play story missions.
I think you're selling the players short. People do things because they want rewards. It's true... but... People who play grinders JUST for the reward aren't necessarily people who LIKE grinders....
the problem with the wrapper is that it's "Do a mission and get this".
Story missions vary greatly in their qualitative and quantitative aspects. Giving the same reward to all missions that qualify makes any mission that isn't short and easy, effectively, less rewarding than those that are.
The honest truth is people shouldn't running the story missions for the sake of a dilith and fm reward, they should be running it because they want a story. Simple as that and as I said if people only run them for the wrapper rewards, well there much easier ways to achieve the dilith and fleetmarks than play a 60 minute episode.
The truth is here it has nothing to do with the wrapper and it has nothing to do with the grinder, it is really down to two things, poor UI and an overinflated sense of demand for story missions from the foundry.
The honest truth is people shouldn't running the story missions for the sake of a dilith and fm reward, they should be running it because they want a story. Simple as that and as I said if people only run them for the wrapper rewards, well there much easier ways to achieve the dilith and fleetmarks than play a 60 minute episode.
The truth is here it has nothing to do with the wrapper and it has nothing to do with the grinder, it is really down to two things, poor UI and an overinflated sense of demand for story missions from the foundry.
Cryptic's stated purpose of the Foundry is for players to tell their own stories. Nothing overinflated about that. It's the entire point of the Foundry according to Cryptic's own initial design statements.
But they also realize that players -- including story players -- like rewards for the time spent in game. Gear, ships, and so forth require resources. Foundry players need access to those resources as well. The notion of making Foundry "rewardless" to avoid exploitation was posited by some early on, but deemed unworkable because it would drastically reduce the number of players who would use the Foundry and render development too costly for little return.
Currently, I have a couple of characters who are slowly leveling via the Foundry only. No dev missions, no Doffing, no exploration; just Foundry. It helps replayability and gives alternate mission paths. Without rewards, this would not be feasible.
The addition of Fleet objectives, gear, and other things gated by dilithium and marks pretty means that if players want to advance in those areas, they have to play content that includes those rewards. I consider it a nice perk from Cryptic that they included them in the Foundry so that those of us who really enjoy the Foundry story missions can still advance in those areas of the game as well.
Now if they can just make it easier for players to find the kinds of missions they like best, it'll be fine.
the problem with the wrapper is that it's "Do a mission and get this".
Story missions vary greatly in their qualitative and quantitative aspects. Giving the same reward to all missions that qualify makes any mission that isn't short and easy, effectively, less rewarding than those that are.
Not to me. Part of the reward is the enjoyment I get from a good story mission. I like the added dilithium and fleet marks because I use them and don't particularly enjoy a lot of the content that generally rewards them. Running the same Fleet events repeatedly is monotonous, and I'm not fond of STFs in general.
With the wrapper I still receive dilithium and fleet marks, albeit at a much slower pace, from doing content that I enjoy.
Frankly, they never should have put the new system in. One wrapper with a 20 hour cooldown, and whatever clickies people want.
That means the most grind someone could do was 1/day for the rewards, instead of repeatedly. People who are just doing that would ignore content and go for the quick missions. Those who actually care to do content would do content.
You don't end up with people downrating based on time and qualifications.
Frankly, they never should have put the new system in. One wrapper with a 20 hour cooldown, and whatever clickies people want.
That means the most grind someone could do was 1/day for the rewards, instead of repeatedly. People who are just doing that would ignore content and go for the quick missions. Those who actually care to do content would do content.
You don't end up with people downrating based on time and qualifications.
You're probably right. Having it as a daily -- even with clickies -- resulted in fewer clickie missions than we're seeing with grinders right now. It was a lot easier to find story missions then.
I do like the current system for my own story playstyle, but can see the overall benefit of the daily wrapper system in comparison.
I'll state this again, since "Foundry authors" are now being accused of a unified attempt to destroy grinders.
There is a place for legitimate grinders in the lists. I made one of my own. Cryptic's official "missions" added to the game the past two years... almost all of it is story-lite arcade shoot em ups. I may respect grind missions less, kind of like a play-do pancake that took 2 seconds to smash compared to a sculpture that took months to carve.
In the context of the game, it's like comparing the Devidian arc to "No Win Scenario."
I can even accept it if those types of missions are preferred by the players and rated at the top.
But just look at the list. It's not dominated by grinders, per say. It's dominated by exploits and Boff grinders. And the amount of them grows on a daily basis, since they take only 30 minutes to make.
Cryptic needs to fix that. It's bad for their economy and it's bad for Foundry authors who spent weeks or months crafting their stories. It's only good for the people that enjoy using an exploit.
Maybe we can hope for UI changes somewhere down the line. But for the meantime, they need squash easy money missions.
Only then will we really know how story and real grinders compete in the listings.
If players want the loot of 25 boss battles, they need to fight 25 bosses. If you disagree with that statement, then it's because you feel entitled to get something for doing nothing.
You're probably right. Having it as a daily -- even with clickies -- resulted in fewer clickie missions than we're seeing with grinders right now. It was a lot easier to find story missions then.
I do like the current system for my own story playstyle, but can see the overall benefit of the daily wrapper system in comparison.
The reason for changing the Daily to 20 minute repeatable is to try to bolster the flagging dilithium economy and help with the FM sinks which they royally screwed in S7.
I'll state this again, since "Foundry authors" are now being accused of a unified attempt to destroy grinders.
But just look at the list. It's not dominated by grinders, per say. It's dominated by exploits and Boff grinders. And the amount of them grows on a daily basis, since they take only 30 minutes to make.
Cryptic needs to fix that. It's bad for their economy and it's bad for Foundry authors who spent weeks or months crafting their stories. It's only good for the people that enjoy using an exploit.
Maybe we can hope for UI changes somewhere down the line. But for the meantime, they need squash easy money missions.
Only then will we really know how story and real grinders compete in the listings.
If players want the loot of 25 boss battles, they need to fight 25 bosses. If you disagree with that statement, then it's because you feel entitled to get something for doing nothing.
Wrong, wrong and wrong again.
1] It's not an exploit, if this is an exploit so is running "Spin the Wheel" every 20 minutes. You know what maybe I should just write a spin the wheel clone... except of course it wouldn't take 15 minutes to complete. That is the point none of these passive enemy missions are illegitimate according to the current measurement of what is and what is not acceptable for the daily reward, the stipulation is based essentially (with the added proviso that one must kill and enemy (once again Spin the Wheel would fall foul of this)) on time played. Until Cryptic decide it's illegitimate it is not an exploit.
2] It is improving Cryptics economy. As it stands the economy was in free-fall, that is the reason why they changed it from 20 hours to 20 minutes to get people to grind it, to help stabilize dilithium and offer a much need source of Fleet Marks. They wanted this to happen, indeed what else would they expect to happen?
3] There is no difference between a 15 minute Story Mission, a 15 Minute Active Enemy Grinder Mission and a 15 minute Passive Grinder Mission, they are all the same in terms of effort and time invested as they all take as long. No one is getting "something for nothing" because everyone has to spend on average 15 minutes in either type mission to get the rewards it's that simple.
Comments
Really? People being snarky are encouraging the several hundred grinder/exploiter missions? uh huh.
Following Stahl's comments about the players being to blame for not policing clickies, along with pattern of other behavior... ... yeah.
As for finding other companies, Trion is pretty cool, from what I understand. Don't really like the game a lot, though. Heh.
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
My character Tsin'xing
1) A table that only applies to missions too short for the Daily and not "Blessed" (see below), and drops nothing but consumables.
2) A table that only applies to missions long enough for the Daily and not "Blessed", and tops out at Green gear, with drop rates similar to the existing one.
3) A table for "blessed" missions, which exceeds the current one by an amount sufficient to encourage Foundry play.
Then the Community Team could periodically check missions out, and if one appears to be an attempt (doesn't have to be a GOOD attempt, just an attempt) to write a decent story and/or quality gameplay, "bless" it so it gets the good loot.
Then give a checkbox for only seeing "blessed" missions, and voila; the Foundry is a relevant part of the user experience for people seeking content, and retains its usefulness for those who want grind as well. Nobody loses anything, but those who want story gain something. Developer workload isn't increased except for the Community Team, and that not by all that much.
If the Community Team can't devote sufficient time to this to be able to keep up, there could also be other solutions to increase the number of "blessed" missions, such as appointing volunteer community moderators for the system. You could start with everybody who's ever had a mission spotlighted; that should be sufficient to get things moving along nicely.
No. Too much power in the hands of too few, open to corruption and vendetta. Player ratings are good enough.
Don't do anything rash. If you want to leave the game for a while, or even permanently then that's reasonable. If it's causing you more grief than enjoyment then you shouldn't keep playing, but don't delete your characters or do anything which you might end up regretting.
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Yeah, I rage quit once and just gave all my gear and ECs away on ds9. But then I came back. I had to beg on the Promenade for enough ECs to buy an impulse engine.
People had no sympathy for Bajoran orphans, but they understood the rage quit part. Some guy even gave me some Mark VII phasers so I had a way to earn more ECs. I had to fight a few patrols with no shields in order to buy shields.
It's pretty easy for someone to see what's going on (hey, look, an easy mission! they don't even move and all I have to do is put the ship into park and fire everything until the explosions go away!) and immediately scream 'exploit!' I dunno if it's been mentioned yet or not, but there's a drop limit now. You can't go into a grinder mission and keep farming until you have to start clearing your inventory anymore; once you hit that limit, the only thing that'll reset it is server rollover. It hasn't completely eliminated the problem, but it's a step in the right direction.
And seriously, I have yet to see anything better than a green drop in a grinder yet. (Separate issue, I know; I just ignore that in favor of chains of stuff blowing up.)
Honestly, I love the idea of separating grinders from the storyline-centered missions simply because it gives both camps an easier way to find what they're looking for. Story for story, lewt for lewt. And yeah, the most popular grinders have pretty much overridden the Hot and Top Rated filters for a while now.
Simple solution: anything tagged as a grinder mission becomes immune to ratings/tips (making the Top Rated filter purely for storyline missions), and as far as the Hot filter list goes, split that into story/grinder. Send the people looking for four-star restaurants one direction, send the people looking for fast food the other way. The only thing downvoting missions for what they are does is slowly turn the entire concept into YTMND during its peak, and that goes for grinders and epics alike. (Seriously, I'd only downvote if it was a story mission that's so poorly thought out, it'd end up making a better birdcage liner.)
Now that sleep deprivation is about to completely take over, I'm going to end on that note.
I deleted all of my missions and it well worth it. No more urge to log in and check rating. No more headache about the next fabled patch which promises salvation but turns bad to downright stupid. Actually I havent logged in since and Im happy about it.
Couldn't you just have unpublished them and accomplished the same thing?
I don't know, maybe I'm too wrapped up in my missions or something but I would feel absolutely sick if one of them were deleted.
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Nah, I'm with you on that.
I think a lot of folks are impassioned about this and dealing with their frustrations in different fashions. Some are a bit more destructive then others, but, I'm with you, Nag. And for you pendra, I really hope they can recover those for you.
We all have our moments of "oouuuuch" on this topic. For me it was when I looked Klingside and the first story mission was ranked 12th under all grinders yesterday.
But right now, in order to give quality feedback and provide possible directions for solutions we need to look at it from a variety of ways and some of those involve distancing ourselves from our emotional responses.
Granted, all my leads have lead me to 18th century coffee house discussions on Economics but...
Amen Nagorak, that's been my main focus as well, seperate them so they do not show on the same list. That is what needs to happen.
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My character Tsin'xing
It's like cutting off your ta-tas instead of burning your bras.
Besides, it's not like players can easily find our story missions now, unless they search our names.
Players responded by using any means they could to make the grind a little less painful, the grinder missions are great they serve a purpose in the economy and that's backed by how in demand they are. Just because your story missions are in less demand is no excuse to moan. Story missions were always going to take a back seat in a game that is focused on grind.
No amount of whining at Cryptic (Who really aren't that bothered) is going to change that. Also there is even less of an excuse to whine when the reality those that want story missions will seek them out, they do not need to be marketed to, nor will removing all the grind missions mean people who were never going to play your missions will.
Also the Foundry is an open platform within means and people should be allowed to do what they wish with it within the boundaries of decency and taste... your interpretation of what you think it should be is a tyranny too far in my books.
Where are legitimate in your concerns is the frankly useless search tool that has no real functionality beyond a plain text search. If I was you I would focus my efforts there for a positive change in your current Foundry experience. Whether Cryptic will listen is another matter
Simple as that.
#2311#2700#2316#2500
My character Tsin'xing
Exactly. Those of us who want to play story missions can come here and find them. The grinders on the search list will definitely inhibit those who want to play story missions but don't frequent the forums.
But the notion of just giving up and throwing the whole thing away is less than constructive and really accomplishes nothing.
I've seen it posited on the old CoH forums, CO, STO, etc., that UGC should just go away because of exploiters. That punishes those of us who use UGC as intended far worse than it will ever hurt the exploiters; they'll just go back to whatever they were farming before.
But storytellers and players will lose a fun, immersive side of the game. Why punish us for someone else's waywardness?
The only negative impact the grinders have on me is making it harder to find good story content. Otherwise, what other players do in their own instances doesn't affect me.
That said, calling for a UI better suited for finding the content we want is reasonable and should be pursued.
I do not advocate taking away the wrapper and I certainly don't think time spent is a good indicator of what should be rewarded. I've played 30-45 minute missions that had far tighter, better written, and richer storylines than some of the longer missions. Time itself is not a good gauge of a quality mission.
However, I do think it would be prudent to say that enemies that cannot fight back should not award XP or drops.
Farming missions where you fight through waves of enemies may not be my cup of tea, but at least the rewards are earned. But setting up a bunch of defenseless vessels and simply blowing them up is clearly not using the Foundry assets as intended.
Even then, if I hadn't had the misfortune of entering one of these missions because the write up sounded story-like, I would never have know they existed. I would have assumed they were combat grinders, not clay pigeon shooters. They wouldn't have bothered me at all except for cluttering up the search screen.
Who are you to decide what is and what is not intended? As far as cryptic are concerned time is the only measurement, it's not even logical to assume that defenseless vessels are not intended, if that was the case they would force combat scaling into to episodes because as it stands I can take my JHAS into any of the early Episodes on easy and it's like they don't fire back.
With regards to the wrapper you are right removing it or changing it will do nothing because frankly there are easier ways to earn Dilithium and Fleet Marks than doing a 60 minute Foundry Mission. End of Story.
(not addressed to above poster)
You can't force other users to do what you want them to do, Cryptic have a hard enough time trying to themselves and they are the developers. You are also not the teachers pets in this don't think that because you make story missions and get spotlighted that you deserve on those basis alone to have more influence over developers than others who do not.
Whilst I largely sympathize with story tellers I do not sympathize with bullying, coercion and the general way in which foundry authors are conducting themselves in relation to this issue, it's a very cheap and dirty way that many of you have chosen to go with this and if I am honest it has contributed greatly to the diminishment of your reputations amongst the wider user-base who are more concerned about their daily bread.
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As a story player, I still like the perk. It is one true benefit for Foundry players, whether they play story missions or grinders.
As noted in my previous post, the only reason I even notice the grinders is that they are filling the search lists and making it harder to find the types of missions I enjoy. A number of us (note that I am not yet a Foundry author, just a Foundry player) have stated that what we would like best is for the Foundry UI to make it easier to separate the two types of missions.
And I agree that is a (and probably the best) way to move forward with this. Damaging the grinders will not attract more players to the story missions, the popularity of grinders is in no way correlated or linked to that of story missions. If people want to do a story mission they will do it. Removing the grinders will not make more people play story missions.
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Story missions vary greatly in their qualitative and quantitative aspects. Giving the same reward to all missions that qualify makes any mission that isn't short and easy, effectively, less rewarding than those that are.
My character Tsin'xing
My character Tsin'xing
The honest truth is people shouldn't running the story missions for the sake of a dilith and fm reward, they should be running it because they want a story. Simple as that and as I said if people only run them for the wrapper rewards, well there much easier ways to achieve the dilith and fleetmarks than play a 60 minute episode.
The truth is here it has nothing to do with the wrapper and it has nothing to do with the grinder, it is really down to two things, poor UI and an overinflated sense of demand for story missions from the foundry.
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Cryptic's stated purpose of the Foundry is for players to tell their own stories. Nothing overinflated about that. It's the entire point of the Foundry according to Cryptic's own initial design statements.
But they also realize that players -- including story players -- like rewards for the time spent in game. Gear, ships, and so forth require resources. Foundry players need access to those resources as well. The notion of making Foundry "rewardless" to avoid exploitation was posited by some early on, but deemed unworkable because it would drastically reduce the number of players who would use the Foundry and render development too costly for little return.
Currently, I have a couple of characters who are slowly leveling via the Foundry only. No dev missions, no Doffing, no exploration; just Foundry. It helps replayability and gives alternate mission paths. Without rewards, this would not be feasible.
The addition of Fleet objectives, gear, and other things gated by dilithium and marks pretty means that if players want to advance in those areas, they have to play content that includes those rewards. I consider it a nice perk from Cryptic that they included them in the Foundry so that those of us who really enjoy the Foundry story missions can still advance in those areas of the game as well.
Now if they can just make it easier for players to find the kinds of missions they like best, it'll be fine.
Not to me. Part of the reward is the enjoyment I get from a good story mission. I like the added dilithium and fleet marks because I use them and don't particularly enjoy a lot of the content that generally rewards them. Running the same Fleet events repeatedly is monotonous, and I'm not fond of STFs in general.
With the wrapper I still receive dilithium and fleet marks, albeit at a much slower pace, from doing content that I enjoy.
That means the most grind someone could do was 1/day for the rewards, instead of repeatedly. People who are just doing that would ignore content and go for the quick missions. Those who actually care to do content would do content.
You don't end up with people downrating based on time and qualifications.
You're probably right. Having it as a daily -- even with clickies -- resulted in fewer clickie missions than we're seeing with grinders right now. It was a lot easier to find story missions then.
I do like the current system for my own story playstyle, but can see the overall benefit of the daily wrapper system in comparison.
There is a place for legitimate grinders in the lists. I made one of my own. Cryptic's official "missions" added to the game the past two years... almost all of it is story-lite arcade shoot em ups. I may respect grind missions less, kind of like a play-do pancake that took 2 seconds to smash compared to a sculpture that took months to carve.
In the context of the game, it's like comparing the Devidian arc to "No Win Scenario."
I can even accept it if those types of missions are preferred by the players and rated at the top.
But just look at the list. It's not dominated by grinders, per say. It's dominated by exploits and Boff grinders. And the amount of them grows on a daily basis, since they take only 30 minutes to make.
Cryptic needs to fix that. It's bad for their economy and it's bad for Foundry authors who spent weeks or months crafting their stories. It's only good for the people that enjoy using an exploit.
Maybe we can hope for UI changes somewhere down the line. But for the meantime, they need squash easy money missions.
Only then will we really know how story and real grinders compete in the listings.
If players want the loot of 25 boss battles, they need to fight 25 bosses. If you disagree with that statement, then it's because you feel entitled to get something for doing nothing.
The reason for changing the Daily to 20 minute repeatable is to try to bolster the flagging dilithium economy and help with the FM sinks which they royally screwed in S7.
Wrong, wrong and wrong again.
1] It's not an exploit, if this is an exploit so is running "Spin the Wheel" every 20 minutes. You know what maybe I should just write a spin the wheel clone... except of course it wouldn't take 15 minutes to complete. That is the point none of these passive enemy missions are illegitimate according to the current measurement of what is and what is not acceptable for the daily reward, the stipulation is based essentially (with the added proviso that one must kill and enemy (once again Spin the Wheel would fall foul of this)) on time played. Until Cryptic decide it's illegitimate it is not an exploit.
2] It is improving Cryptics economy. As it stands the economy was in free-fall, that is the reason why they changed it from 20 hours to 20 minutes to get people to grind it, to help stabilize dilithium and offer a much need source of Fleet Marks. They wanted this to happen, indeed what else would they expect to happen?
3] There is no difference between a 15 minute Story Mission, a 15 Minute Active Enemy Grinder Mission and a 15 minute Passive Grinder Mission, they are all the same in terms of effort and time invested as they all take as long. No one is getting "something for nothing" because everyone has to spend on average 15 minutes in either type mission to get the rewards it's that simple.
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