I'm pretty certain the timid creature grinders will be going away soon. If so, it will be clear it was an exploit.
I do agree that scaling mission rewards would do a lot to help this problem. One two hour mission should provide rewards equal to four 30 minute missions, and so on.
I really hope so. I wouldn't be sad to entirely lose timid behavior. The trade off is worth it to me. There are workarounds to beam over bombs and destroy a friendly ship. The only thing that I think we'd really lose is the ability to hid a passive ship inside of a station and attack the station's defenses before beaming down.
But, yes, it's been obvious for a very long time that such a rational rewards systems would work better.
If someone is going to grind 75 boss battles for 4 hours, I'm fine with that. I don't think it would be possible to create a 2 hour AFK mission. The player will be booted from STO.
I'm at the point of saying that if they can't finally implement a system like this, then they need to nerf the Foundry. They can give drops on the vetted spotlights. Otherwise, the only thing clogging up the top-rated will be the top-rated stories, played by players who just wanted a good story for story's sake.
I was pushing for Foundry rewards. But, if this is what it looks like, no thank you.
So if there is a place in a video game where a player can use a bug, glitch, or design flaw to skip a level, get free gear, and save the princess, it's not really an exploit if the devs of the game don't announce: "Hey, you're not supposed to to do that!"
This is really what you are saying?
In the 2nd Level of the original Super Mario on the NES you can do exactly that though of course it was designed into the game as a way to skip levels.
For something to be a legitimate exploit it has to defined as such by those that made the system. You simply can't call it one until they say it is. Which is why I don't call it an exploit. You yourself have probably benefited from a number of things in the game that allow you to skip something or to make EC quickly in one way or another, that doesn't mean their exploits until Cryptic address them as such.
Otherwise you could argue that any new found way someone has come across to make easy money or dilithium is an exploit without it actually ever being accepted as such by the developers.
You see this is the point about regulation, the regulatory body has to cite the behaviour as an infringement of regulation. As of yet they have not done so. That does not mean they won't in the future class it as such.
But I see all this talk of "exploits" as being largely irrelevant.
With regards to scaling rewards I'm all for it, but you must understand there are only a tiny minority of the userbase that will ever play your 2 hour long mission no matter what incentives you put it in (within in reason, if Cryptic offered 1000 zen for it I'm sure everyone would play).
Also you didn't answer my questions
What i see here is misdirected rage and frustration, so answer me a question or two... In what way are these passive grinder missions doing any damage to story missions? and if you believe they are.. In what way are they doing more damage than active grinder missions that you are fine with?
In the 2nd Level of the original Super Mario on the NES you can do exactly that though of course it was designed into the game as a way to skip levels.
For something to be a legitimate exploit it has to defined as such by those that made the system. You simply can't call it one until they say it is. Which is why I don't call it an exploit. You yourself have probably benefited from a number of things in the game that allow you to skip something or to make EC quickly in one way or another, that doesn't mean there exploits until Cryptic address them as such.
Otherwise you could argue that any new found way someone has come across to make easy money or dilithium is an exploit without it actually ever being accepted as such by the developers.
You see this is the point about regulation, the regulatory body has to cite the behaviour as an infringement of regulation. As of yet they have not done so. That does not mean they won't in the future class it as such.
But I see all this talk of "exploits" as being largely irrelevant.
With regards to scaling rewards I'm all for it, but you must understand there are only a tiny minority of the userbase that will ever play your 2 hour long mission no matter what incentives you put it in.
It's amazing how it is so ambiguous for you.
Maybe the devs are just thanking you for playing STO be giving you a million ECs per day for no work!
In what way are these passive grinder missions doing any damage to story missions?
Have you looked at the list of "top-rated" missions? Imagine looking at that list from the point of view of an author who put over 100 hours of work creating their mission, because they wanted to tell a story in something resembling the franchise they love. They wrote their own episode of Star Trek as a labor of love and now they want to see folks play it.
The number 1 Foundry mission: "Easy money, any lvl." That list is how most players find a Foundry mission to play. When it's clogged with that stuff, they can't find our missions unless they know what to look for.
I really hope so. I wouldn't be sad to entirely lose timid behavior. The trade off is worth it to me. There are workarounds to beam over bombs and destroy a friendly ship. The only thing that I think we'd really lose is the ability to hid a passive ship inside of a station and attack the station's defenses before beaming down.
But, yes, it's been obvious for a very long time that such a rational rewards systems would work better.
If someone is going to grind 75 boss battles for 4 hours, I'm fine with that. I don't think it would be possible to create a 2 hour AFK mission. The player will be booted from STO.
I'm at the point of saying that if they can't finally implement a system like this, then they need to nerf the Foundry. They can give drops on the vetted spotlights. Otherwise, the only thing clogging up the top-rated will be the top-rated stories, played by players who just wanted a good story for story's sake.
I was pushing for Foundry rewards. But, if this is what it looks like, no thank you.
I don't see removing Timid Creature as the best solution. But it's an easy one. A better one would be making timid Creatures not pay out loot and Xp.
I don't see removing Timid Creature as the best solution. But it's an easy one. A better one would be making timid Creatures not pay out loot and Xp.
I'm just not sure that is technically possible. Maybe it is. Maybe it is, but it would require a programmer. Maybe that programmer has other priorities or a very long list of bug fixes to deal with.
Seems like the best option would be to remove the functionality ASAP and then try to work on what you suggest. Perhaps it could be reintroduced at a later date, after a programmer has time to tinker with what you suggest.
I'm skeptical that the devs can easily do something that ties the loot drops to NPC behaviors. The two might be worlds apart from a programmer's perspective.
I think the fix for timid creatures not dropping loot is necessary in the long run for NW and STO, so they should implement it.
However, for the time being, I can accept the removal of the feature. It's being abused too badly at the moment. We got by for many months without it, and we can do without it for a few more months if necessary.
I think the fix for timid creatures not dropping loot is necessary in the long run for NW and STO, so they should implement it.
However, for the time being, I can accept the removal of the feature. It's being abused too badly at the moment. We got by for many months without it, and we can do without it for a few more months if necessary.
This will fail, because frankly there are mission that are basically passive but don't use timid creatures they use active ones in a field where their shields won't work and you can simply drop mines on them and boom. They will attack you but they have no shields, so the effect is much the same.
Honestly there is no point in playing Whack-a-Feature because before long there will be no foundry features left.
Have you looked at the list of "top-rated" missions? Imagine looking at that list from the point of view of an author who put over 100 hours of work creating their mission, because they wanted to tell a story in something resembling the franchise they love. They wrote their own episode of Star Trek as a labor of love and now they want to see folks play it.
The number 1 Foundry mission: "Easy money, any lvl." That list is how most players find a Foundry mission to play. When it's clogged with that stuff, they can't find our missions unless they know what to look for.
So lets remove the emotion from this I understand you put a lot of work into your missions, not only that you put a lot of effort into offering up tutorials for others. I understand this, but I also understand something about art, you can put in 100 hours on a painting and you may find I beautiful those in your sphere of the artworld may find it beautiful but that doesn't mean the majority of people will.
The truth is the grinders be they passive or active will always be more popular because the majority of the playerbase don't care about your story missions nor ever will because they playing the agenda that cryptic have set out for them, grind till you drop. Indeed many of them still wouldn't bother with story missions even if this wasn't the case.
Even if you removed the passive grinders today the active ones would find their way to the top of the list. The reality is you don't have a problem with the grinders you have a problem with the way foundry missions are presented to the user, it's a UI issue.
The thing is as I have said and will continue to say only those that have an interest in community created story missions will play them and invest time in them, you may attract the odd casual player but the fact is your audience is a relatively small group of enthusiasts, it's a niche a cult phenomena, it was never meant to compete with mass marketed grind missions.
The solution is not a flame war between those pressured by time and cryptics grind agenda and a clique of dedicated foundry authors. Indeed that method of discussion has already led to resentment on both sides and some of the vitriol spilled across these pages by foundry authors has damaged the reputation of the group.
I suggest the solution is a UI change that protects the Story Mission Assets we have by first ensuring that grind mission be flagged us such in the editor. I.e. a tick button that says "story mission content" or "combat engagement content". Secondly that the search function can perform advanced queries to the published mission database and sort or show missions by type, date, rating and that it can use at least 3 of these queries to narrow down the search.
I believe the latter is the only way that will finally resolve the issue.
I'm just not sure that is technically possible. Maybe it is. Maybe it is, but it would require a programmer. Maybe that programmer has other priorities or a very long list of bug fixes to deal with.
Seems like the best option would be to remove the functionality ASAP and then try to work on what you suggest. Perhaps it could be reintroduced at a later date, after a programmer has time to tinker with what you suggest.
I'm skeptical that the devs can easily do something that ties the loot drops to NPC behaviors. The two might be worlds apart from a programmer's perspective.
My best guess is that the current code looks at the rank of an enemy, then goes to a loot table to decide what to drop. There does seem to be more than this, though, but not a lot. I'd just add a check that skips going to the loot table if it's a timid creature.
It would definately be more work than simply disabling that behaviour.
thisisoverlord : In what way are these passive grinder missions doing any damage to story missions?
Look at it from the point of view of an author who understands that a large portion of the playerbase does not even understand how to search the list. All they see at the top are the grinder missions.
Someone new who comes to the Foundry looking for story with an incomplete understanding of the search tool, will not be able to find the missions they are looking for, and leave.
and if you believe they are.. In what way are they doing more damage than active grinder missions that you are fine with?
They are doing more damage because these , I call them pinatas now, far outnumber even the legitimate grinder missions. It's pure arithmetic. There are just SO many of them, that
Honestly, I have said it multiple times, I have no problem with someone reaching that drop limit on elite actually fighting their way through a grinder mission, wave after wave, and returning home with the spoils. Heck, I can even see how that would be fun.
Peace
I gotta go play some tabletop superheroes now.
Try not to kill each other while I'm gone, okay.
Seriously, if everyone, myself included, would just take a step back.
I think we have all made our cases known at this point and we are arguing the same thing again and again to the point that we have stopped listening to each other.
We all love this game, obviously. Listen to how passionately we are arguing about it.
lets put some of that passion toward working together to find a solution that can be acceptable and not hurt anyone.
Hark, I hear Freedom City calling me. I can converse no longer.
Start playing nice , or I'll activate my signal watch and call the Big red S.
My best guess is that the current code looks at the rank of an enemy, then goes to a loot table to decide what to drop. There does seem to be more than this, though, but not a lot. I'd just add a check that skips going to the loot table if it's a timid creature.
It would definately be more work than simply disabling that behaviour.
As I said this is immaterial anyways as one can create environmental effects that remove shielding. Several of the older grinders use this method.
Disabling this feature does nothing and for no good reason too.
Simply put your problem is with the UI, not the grinders.
I actually agree with this. Changing the UI to have two options that are automatically visible, one for shorter missions (less than 30 minutes) and one for longer missions (greater than 30 minutes), would solve the vast majority of our complaints.
Later on that could possibly be changed to include different categories selected in the Foundry editor. But in the short term all we need are two UI tabs, using search criteria based on time.
So lets remove the emotion from this I understand you put a lot of work into your missions, not only that you put a lot of effort into offering up tutorials for others. I understand this, but I also understand something about art, you can put in 100 hours on a painting and you may find I beautiful those in your sphere of the artworld may find it beautiful but that doesn't mean the majority of people will.
The truth is the grinders be they passive or active will always be more popular because the majority of the playerbase don't care about your story missions nor ever will because they playing the agenda that cryptic have set out for them, grind till you drop. Indeed many of them still wouldn't bother with story missions even if this wasn't the case.
Even if you removed the passive grinders today the active ones would find their way to the top of the list. The reality is you don't have a problem with the grinders you have a problem with the way foundry missions are presented to the user, it's a UI issue.
No, it will not fail. Go ahead and try to take on 25 battleship 03 mobs placed in one spot with nebula in place. No, just try 10. It won't matter if you have the best of the best gear. You will explode, and the ships will break formation to attack you, thus they won't all explode due to the splash damage. Maybe 1 or 2 might, but in no time you'll find yourself on a map being swarmed by 20 battleships.
And please count the number of active grinders in the top rated. You know, the ones like mine where a player has to actually battle the bosses. Aside from a few accolade grinders, I don't see very many.
I don't care if the active ones do find their way to the top. They, at least, would be legit uses of the Foundry for build tests and fleet training. But, I don't think the thing will be clogged with exploits.
No, it will not fail. Go ahead and try to take on 25 battleship 03 mobs placed in one spot with nebula in place. No, just try 10. I won't matter if you have the best of the best gear. You will explode, and the ships will break formation to attack you.
And please count the number of active grinders in the top rated. You know, the ones like mine where a player has to actually battle the bosses. Aside from a few accolade grinders, I don't see very many.
I don't care if the active ones do find their way to the top. They, at least, would be legit uses of the Foundry for build tests and fleet training. But, I don't think the thing will be clogged with exploits.
It already works, I know one filled with Klingon Battleships that an ISO charge will set off easily especially with much smaller ships around them. Yes you'll die but they die too, they are also all pathed to a central point which they keep flying back to like some pseudo grav well which means they get chained to death.
So no, this change will make no difference as people had already found innovative ways before this.
The truth is you know that it doesn't matter if active or passive grinders exist or not, what matters is if they impede on the visibility of the story missions you create therefore the issue is with the UI and search engine.
It already works, I know one filled with Klingon Battleships that an ISO charge will set off easily especially with much smaller ships around them. Yes you'll die but they die too, they are also all pathed to a central point which they keep flying back to like some pseudo grav well which means they get chained to death.
So no, this change will make no difference as people had already found innovative ways before this.
The truth is you know that it doesn't matter if active or passive grinders exist or not, what matters is if they impede on the visibility of the story missions you create therefore the issue is with the UI and search engine.
The battleships are the ones that drop the good loot. Stop telling me what I know. It totally matters. That is why they are set to timid. That is why timid is the exploit. They only fly back to the spot well after you are dead.
The battleships are the ones that drop the good loot. Stop telling me what I know. It totally matters. That is why they are set to timid. That is why timid is the exploit.
As I said there are number of missions out there they don't use timid and simply bunch active battleships together that you can chain kill.
One of the oldest grinder missions that actually existed even when the clickies were around uses this method.
It's called
Blast Test Dummie.
seek it out and play it, though be prepared repair if you try it on elite.
And as you know it totally doesn't matter because grinding was going on long before people learned to use timid... and most of those missions with active ships almost as easy and last about as long. It only became an issue when it impeded upon the visibility of Story Missions, so the solution doesn't lie in disabling bits of the foundry but in creating a UI that protects story assets.
The UI solution benefits everyone disabling bits of the foundry or trying to get grinders banned will benefit little if anyone.
Comments
I really hope so. I wouldn't be sad to entirely lose timid behavior. The trade off is worth it to me. There are workarounds to beam over bombs and destroy a friendly ship. The only thing that I think we'd really lose is the ability to hid a passive ship inside of a station and attack the station's defenses before beaming down.
But, yes, it's been obvious for a very long time that such a rational rewards systems would work better.
If someone is going to grind 75 boss battles for 4 hours, I'm fine with that. I don't think it would be possible to create a 2 hour AFK mission. The player will be booted from STO.
I'm at the point of saying that if they can't finally implement a system like this, then they need to nerf the Foundry. They can give drops on the vetted spotlights. Otherwise, the only thing clogging up the top-rated will be the top-rated stories, played by players who just wanted a good story for story's sake.
I was pushing for Foundry rewards. But, if this is what it looks like, no thank you.
In the 2nd Level of the original Super Mario on the NES you can do exactly that
For something to be a legitimate exploit it has to defined as such by those that made the system. You simply can't call it one until they say it is. Which is why I don't call it an exploit. You yourself have probably benefited from a number of things in the game that allow you to skip something or to make EC quickly in one way or another, that doesn't mean their exploits until Cryptic address them as such.
Otherwise you could argue that any new found way someone has come across to make easy money or dilithium is an exploit without it actually ever being accepted as such by the developers.
You see this is the point about regulation, the regulatory body has to cite the behaviour as an infringement of regulation. As of yet they have not done so. That does not mean they won't in the future class it as such.
But I see all this talk of "exploits" as being largely irrelevant.
With regards to scaling rewards I'm all for it, but you must understand there are only a tiny minority of the userbase that will ever play your 2 hour long mission no matter what incentives you put it in (within in reason, if Cryptic offered 1000 zen for it I'm sure everyone would play).
Also you didn't answer my questions
#2311#2700#2316#2500
It's amazing how it is so ambiguous for you.
Maybe the devs are just thanking you for playing STO be giving you a million ECs per day for no work!
Have you looked at the list of "top-rated" missions? Imagine looking at that list from the point of view of an author who put over 100 hours of work creating their mission, because they wanted to tell a story in something resembling the franchise they love. They wrote their own episode of Star Trek as a labor of love and now they want to see folks play it.
The number 1 Foundry mission: "Easy money, any lvl." That list is how most players find a Foundry mission to play. When it's clogged with that stuff, they can't find our missions unless they know what to look for.
My character Tsin'xing
I'm just not sure that is technically possible. Maybe it is. Maybe it is, but it would require a programmer. Maybe that programmer has other priorities or a very long list of bug fixes to deal with.
Seems like the best option would be to remove the functionality ASAP and then try to work on what you suggest. Perhaps it could be reintroduced at a later date, after a programmer has time to tinker with what you suggest.
I'm skeptical that the devs can easily do something that ties the loot drops to NPC behaviors. The two might be worlds apart from a programmer's perspective.
However, for the time being, I can accept the removal of the feature. It's being abused too badly at the moment. We got by for many months without it, and we can do without it for a few more months if necessary.
Click here for my Foundry tutorial on Creating A Custom Interior Map.
This will fail, because frankly there are mission that are basically passive but don't use timid creatures they use active ones in a field where their shields won't work and you can simply drop mines on them and boom. They will attack you but they have no shields, so the effect is much the same.
Honestly there is no point in playing Whack-a-Feature because before long there will be no foundry features left.
So lets remove the emotion from this I understand you put a lot of work into your missions, not only that you put a lot of effort into offering up tutorials for others. I understand this, but I also understand something about art, you can put in 100 hours on a painting and you may find I beautiful those in your sphere of the artworld may find it beautiful but that doesn't mean the majority of people will.
The truth is the grinders be they passive or active will always be more popular because the majority of the playerbase don't care about your story missions nor ever will because they playing the agenda that cryptic have set out for them, grind till you drop. Indeed many of them still wouldn't bother with story missions even if this wasn't the case.
Even if you removed the passive grinders today the active ones would find their way to the top of the list. The reality is you don't have a problem with the grinders you have a problem with the way foundry missions are presented to the user, it's a UI issue.
The thing is as I have said and will continue to say only those that have an interest in community created story missions will play them and invest time in them, you may attract the odd casual player but the fact is your audience is a relatively small group of enthusiasts, it's a niche a cult phenomena, it was never meant to compete with mass marketed grind missions.
The solution is not a flame war between those pressured by time and cryptics grind agenda and a clique of dedicated foundry authors. Indeed that method of discussion has already led to resentment on both sides and some of the vitriol spilled across these pages by foundry authors has damaged the reputation of the group.
I suggest the solution is a UI change that protects the Story Mission Assets we have by first ensuring that grind mission be flagged us such in the editor. I.e. a tick button that says "story mission content" or "combat engagement content". Secondly that the search function can perform advanced queries to the published mission database and sort or show missions by type, date, rating and that it can use at least 3 of these queries to narrow down the search.
I believe the latter is the only way that will finally resolve the issue.
#2311#2700#2316#2500
It would definately be more work than simply disabling that behaviour.
My character Tsin'xing
Look at it from the point of view of an author who understands that a large portion of the playerbase does not even understand how to search the list. All they see at the top are the grinder missions.
Someone new who comes to the Foundry looking for story with an incomplete understanding of the search tool, will not be able to find the missions they are looking for, and leave.
and if you believe they are.. In what way are they doing more damage than active grinder missions that you are fine with?
They are doing more damage because these , I call them pinatas now, far outnumber even the legitimate grinder missions. It's pure arithmetic. There are just SO many of them, that
Honestly, I have said it multiple times, I have no problem with someone reaching that drop limit on elite actually fighting their way through a grinder mission, wave after wave, and returning home with the spoils. Heck, I can even see how that would be fun.
Peace
I gotta go play some tabletop superheroes now.
Try not to kill each other while I'm gone, okay.
Seriously, if everyone, myself included, would just take a step back.
I think we have all made our cases known at this point and we are arguing the same thing again and again to the point that we have stopped listening to each other.
We all love this game, obviously. Listen to how passionately we are arguing about it.
lets put some of that passion toward working together to find a solution that can be acceptable and not hurt anyone.
Hark, I hear Freedom City calling me. I can converse no longer.
Start playing nice , or I'll activate my signal watch and call the Big red S.
Night All
As I said this is immaterial anyways as one can create environmental effects that remove shielding. Several of the older grinders use this method.
Disabling this feature does nothing and for no good reason too.
Simply put your problem is with the UI, not the grinders.
#2311#2700#2316#2500
I actually agree with this. Changing the UI to have two options that are automatically visible, one for shorter missions (less than 30 minutes) and one for longer missions (greater than 30 minutes), would solve the vast majority of our complaints.
Later on that could possibly be changed to include different categories selected in the Foundry editor. But in the short term all we need are two UI tabs, using search criteria based on time.
Click here for my Foundry tutorial on Creating A Custom Interior Map.
No, it will not fail. Go ahead and try to take on 25 battleship 03 mobs placed in one spot with nebula in place. No, just try 10. It won't matter if you have the best of the best gear. You will explode, and the ships will break formation to attack you, thus they won't all explode due to the splash damage. Maybe 1 or 2 might, but in no time you'll find yourself on a map being swarmed by 20 battleships.
And please count the number of active grinders in the top rated. You know, the ones like mine where a player has to actually battle the bosses. Aside from a few accolade grinders, I don't see very many.
I don't care if the active ones do find their way to the top. They, at least, would be legit uses of the Foundry for build tests and fleet training. But, I don't think the thing will be clogged with exploits.
It already works, I know one filled with Klingon Battleships that an ISO charge will set off easily especially with much smaller ships around them. Yes you'll die but they die too, they are also all pathed to a central point which they keep flying back to like some pseudo grav well which means they get chained to death.
So no, this change will make no difference as people had already found innovative ways before this.
The truth is you know that it doesn't matter if active or passive grinders exist or not, what matters is if they impede on the visibility of the story missions you create therefore the issue is with the UI and search engine.
#2311#2700#2316#2500
The battleships are the ones that drop the good loot. Stop telling me what I know. It totally matters. That is why they are set to timid. That is why timid is the exploit. They only fly back to the spot well after you are dead.
As I said there are number of missions out there they don't use timid and simply bunch active battleships together that you can chain kill.
One of the oldest grinder missions that actually existed even when the clickies were around uses this method.
It's called
Blast Test Dummie.
seek it out and play it, though be prepared repair if you try it on elite.
And as you know it totally doesn't matter because grinding was going on long before people learned to use timid... and most of those missions with active ships almost as easy and last about as long. It only became an issue when it impeded upon the visibility of Story Missions, so the solution doesn't lie in disabling bits of the foundry but in creating a UI that protects story assets.
The UI solution benefits everyone disabling bits of the foundry or trying to get grinders banned will benefit little if anyone.
EDIT: And this thread is also done. -Brandon
#2311#2700#2316#2500