As some one who doesn't yet have a mission in the spotlight but DOES have the second highest rated qualified storyline mission behind Avenging Resolution, I think I can say that engaging your audience really pays off in terms of both plays and rating.
I make it a habit to always respond to detailed reviews, both good and bad but ESPECIALLY bad. A lot of these have been players that have had bugged runs, and I've managed to turn 1 stars into 4s and 5s just by helping them out. I've also gotten entire fleets to play the mission because of correspondence with a player that really liked the mission but had questions.
I've been trying to think up a good analogy to compare the grinders and storyline missions and how they relate to the player base, and the best I can come up with would be something like Youtube videos vs stage productions.
Go with me on this: With a grinder mission the player is mainly looking for instant gratification in terms of the rewards given, which we can compare to someone relaxing at home (or goofing off at work) and looking for a video that might give them a quick laugh.
If the video isn't any good the investment in time and focus was minimal anyway, so there is little loss. If it is good then they get what they want and can move on, there is very likely not much attachment and at best there might be some small exchange of comments with the author over a forum. In the end it is a throw away experience.
Story missions are more like stage productions in that there is a much greater investment in time and focus. If the play is bad (and plenty are) then there is a much greater loss, the risk of which can immediately turn off potential viewers ( ex. "I could have watched 30 funny cat videos in the time it took to sit through this half-assed version of Hamlet").
The advantage the play has to the video is there can be much more of a personal connection between the play and the viewer. Actors and directors will often talk with the audience after a performance, hold actual conversations and build that relationship that helps to make the positive experience stick. This in turn builds worth of mouth that allows the play to build up a fan base.
TL;DR version: The key for storyline authors to compete with the flood of grinding missions is to better engage their players and build connections. Grinders are something players are going to feel they NEED to do, and it usually won't really matter how they get it. The storyline author should work to make their players to WANT to play their missions, and to get others to play them too.
Play Star Trek: Allegiance - my first series in the Foundry
The thing is, that balance is really, really, really hard to achieve, and I don't fault Cryptic for struggling to find it. (I mean, heck, they are doing much better in this regard than City of Heroes did)
Hahaa... yeah. At least it's not -that-. I wonder, I know cryptic eventually wasn't involved with CoH, was that pre or post Architect?
I make it a habit to always respond to detailed reviews, both good and bad but ESPECIALLY bad. A lot of these have been players that have had bugged runs, and I've managed to turn 1 stars into 4s and 5s just by helping them out. I've also gotten entire fleets to play the mission because of correspondence with a player that really liked the mission but had questions.
I agree as well, although I don't contact every review, I do send out a thank you with a reward for playing my entire Spawn of Medusa Series. Sadly, not all who play my series leave written reviews, even though it has grown in rating since the spotlight, so I don't have any way to send anything to those players.
Usually I will send something like a cross faction console or maybe a mirror ship, a purple cxp booster, a skill boost, and usually a couple doff mini-packs. I like to send 5 items including the console/ship so the player feels they got something nice, even though they had no idea they would get it. And it does not matter if they gave it 1 star or 5 stars, if they played the series and left reviews, I reward them.
Of course, In the mail I also plug my other missions, which is something we all would do in this case. But I also mention they can find a good database of missions on SBUGC.com.
I think those that play my 5 part series deserve something more for their time, and the ones that leave a written review give me the opportunity to send them something, plus it gives me the opportunity to converse with players out there who enjoy story type missions and plug the SBUGC site for missions and followers as well.
I have built up a few followers in this fashion, as I'm sure chicochavez has done, and that is important for a foundry author, but still, back on topic, it is the newer and unknown authors who are suffering more from the missions this thread has been discussing. That's where the system needs to change.
DoR :cool:
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Also play Spawn of Medusa - The 5 Part series
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Grind stuff in the foundry is fine. I don't see a great deal of difference between foundry ginders and the fleet events. Short, repeatable stuff that helps people get to where they want to be. I didn't like clickers because I felt it was 'cheating', but grinders are 'ok' because at least you have to do something, however minimal it is.
If the rewards for the official grinders were more, then perhaps foundry ginders wouldn't exist but then this would bring us back to the reason that the rewards for the foundry were put in in the first place, which was to get more players to play foundry stuff.
Is there a chat channel for 'real' foundry stuff? If not... um... why not? I feel that some of the responsibility for promoting story based foundry stuff has to lie with the authors while the devs get on with creat... um fixing bugs, creating their own content and designing the next lock box. Promote the channel(s) on Fleet, Zone, Local or in your bios, whatever, because if such channels exist, then I certainly haven't heard of them.
A very simple way to 'solve' the grinder vs story 'problem' would be to have a checkable 'Grinder?' option in the mission settings area. Both would still give the officer report reward if eligible but only grinders would give drops for defeated enemies. Those with the grinder option unchecked would instead give Commendation XP in the discipline specified by the author for each completed task in the story, so, for example, your ship is ordered to investigate the disappearance of a ship and after doing the first task 'scan for missing vessel', you are awarded 'X' Science or Exploration XP. This mechanic is already present in the diplomacy missions and I see that this too would be open to 'Commendation XP Grinder' style missions, but the longer the mission (the more tasks), the more reward and there could even be a daily XP limit similar to the drop limit for the farming missions. I feel it would be a step in the right direction at least for story authors to be able to get some recognition and appreciation for the work they've put in and would give foundry stuff a more 'official' feel too (think about the story eng/sci/tac accolades)
Are people really asking that Cryptic make an official category for "grinders" ?
This has passed ridiculous. Are people so attached to cheating the system that they now are actually calling for someone to legitimize their cheating ?
Loading into a map full of Max level enemies all set to timid so they won't fight back, and are stacked on top of each other so you get 25 kills for 1, and all the Loots is cheating.
Loading into a mission where you set up your Boffs and press a button then go afk for 15 minutes and come back and collect the loots, is cheating.
And now people are calling for these pieces of TRIBBLE to have their own category ?
What the ever living FV** is wrong with people ?
NO.
These things should not have their own category.
Cryptic should instead recognize the damage this does and do something about it.
People SHOULD report these En MASSE.
We should be complaining about this.
Not because we're OH So high and mighty and you should only play our missions, or whatever other maddness you Foundry haters are ascribing to us today.
But because these missions are plainly cheats , or ways to "game" the system, and they are damaging the in game economy.
You can try and defend these steaming piles of manure as real missions, that are somehow valuable. I will continue to laugh at such claims, and simply see them as desperate cheaters trying to somehow defend their cheating ways.
Give these things their own tab ?
How about ... NO.
I think the only way to remove grinders from the foundry is to remove the rewards and when there were no rewards, people complained that the foundry wasn't getting enough recognition. In an ideal world, grinders wouldn't exist but it's clear that people will always find a way to make them so rather than cutting off our noses to spite our face, I am suggesting a compromise, nothing more. And I agree, the ones where the ships don't fight back are not 'content', but if someone makes a 'Battle at Wolf 359' mission, is that grind or story?
You know what ?
I can't believe I'm about to say this
But go ahead and remove all rewards from the Foundry.
I'd rather not see the grinders , and know that the people playing story missions are playing them because they actually want story.
I will simply say that any PC who wants to can go gain minimum hundreds of thousands of energy credits (maximum in the millions if they understand the exchange) with absolutely no effort, within 10 minutes.
It doesn't take a genius to figure out that this sends a games economy (even one that runs off multiple currencies) into the toilet. These missions will break the economy given time.
I'd rather see no rewards in the Foundry than that.
Uh, Hippiejon, the people suggesting a category/tab/tag for grinders aren't the pro-grinder people, they are the folks who don't want stories hidden below hundreds of grinder missions who seek a cooperative/fruitful change to the system.
Adding a filter to the UI is a fairly straight-forward change Cryptic has the tools to implement.
Removing exploits and grinding behaviors to a complex open system is considerably harder. And, in my experience with City of Heroes, the result is usually draconian limitations to the system that cause headaches for legitimate authors and causes the farmers/exploiters to simply find a different farm/exploit.
The extent to which grinding bothers me is entirely due to people not actually seeking or finding the story stuff.
Campaign: The Fenwick Cycle NWS-DKR9GB7KH
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
Uh, Hippiejon, the people suggesting a category/tab/tag for grinders aren't the pro-grinder people, they are the folks who don't want stories hidden below hundreds of grinder missions who seek a cooperative/fruitful change to the system.
Then I would disagree with them too , man.
Regardless of the reasoning , adding a tab specifically for such grinders, does nothing except legitimize cheating.
Again, take away all rewards from the Foundry.
I do not care, and it may actually be the only solution.
I'm ok with it because in print media I keep harping about how our current crop of political leaders never compromise, so it would be pretty hypocritical of me not to compromise.
So if grinders want to participate in a poor game design, if they want to keep showing Cryptic that the playerbase loves grind and if they want to perpetuate the exorcism of everything Star Trek from this game, which is what they are doing by making these missions, I say fine, let 'em.
But get them the frack away from my story missions. Better UI or Bust!
I'm also of the opinion hippiejohn that there should be no rewards. Playing a well-done mission is its own reward, and if people can't enjoy their time playing without some sort of carrot dangling in front of them, then what are they doing playing at all?
However. Anyone seen Lincoln? Well mostly-spoiler free version, there's a very influential Congressman who has fought for something his whole life, and part of the story is about him compromising so he can achieve a very important part of that lifelong goal. It isn't a total victory for him, but its an important step.
I think a better Mission UI, with a category list that is the very first screen anyone sees before they see a single mission, is the compromise that would be a major victory. It's not all of what I want, but it is achievable.
These things should not have their own category.
Cryptic should instead recognize the damage this does and do something about it.
People SHOULD report these En MASSE.
We should be complaining about this.
Not because we're OH So high and mighty and you should only play our missions, or whatever other maddness you Foundry haters are ascribing to us today.
But because these missions are plainly cheats , or ways to "game" the system, and they are damaging the in game economy.
Season 7 damaged the economy far, far more. These missions are simply the player's response to absolutely abyssmal piece of TRIBBLE update that jacked up the grind to 11. You want to rage, rage at cryptic.
Otherwise, people have every right to make missions as they see fit -- and not have to fall into whatever category the high and mighty HippeJohn sees as fitting in his Foundry.
So if grinders want to participate in a poor game design, if they want to keep showing Cryptic that the playerbase loves grind and if they want to perpetuate the exorcism of everything Star Trek from this game, which is what they are doing by making these missions, I say fine, let 'em.
/sigh
Accolade grinds have existed in the Foundry for a long, long time. But they were never really popular. Until know. Why? What changed?
FRAKKIN SEASON 7.
Grinders are not a cause, but a sympton of Cryptic's own bad game design. At least get your ranting right.
Are people really asking that Cryptic make an official category for "grinders" ?
This has passed ridiculous. Are people so attached to cheating the system that they now are actually calling for someone to legitimize their cheating ?
Loading into a map full of Max level enemies all set to timid so they won't fight back, and are stacked on top of each other so you get 25 kills for 1, and all the Loots is cheating.
Loading into a mission where you set up your Boffs and press a button then go afk for 15 minutes and come back and collect the loots, is cheating.
And now people are calling for these pieces of TRIBBLE to have their own category ?
What the ever living FV** is wrong with people ?
NO.
These things should not have their own category.
Cryptic should instead recognize the damage this does and do something about it.
People SHOULD report these En MASSE.
We should be complaining about this.
Not because we're OH So high and mighty and you should only play our missions, or whatever other maddness you Foundry haters are ascribing to us today.
But because these missions are plainly cheats , or ways to "game" the system, and they are damaging the in game economy.
You can try and defend these steaming piles of manure as real missions, that are somehow valuable. I will continue to laugh at such claims, and simply see them as desperate cheaters trying to somehow defend their cheating ways.
Give these things their own tab ?
How about ... NO.
I agree in spirit but not in the details. I like the idea of having combat simulation missions.
My thoughts:
no drops from "timid creature" 'enemies'
FM and Dil rewards for a combat simulation should be based on number and difficulty of enemies that YOU(and your boffs) kill. Timid creatures don't count.
When will you all realize that that the player base has changed?
The so called story content was weak to begin with and got worse over time. The story content was slowly replaced with grind content. The players followed suit. The story oriented gamers moved on and the grind oriented players took their place.
The spirit of Trek was minimized to the point where this game is nothing more than a generic MMO with Star Trek skins. Heck I think if the devs lost the franchise tomorrow and subsequently replaced all the models with generic scifi ships, weapons and race names, the people would still stay to grind on.
So at this point the only thing around 80% of the STO players are interested in is the grind and reward. You may not like it, but this is still a fact.
While the foundry lacked the real reward, it was an obscure part of weird and useless things. By the nerds for the nerds you know. The accolade hunt missions were useful for once or twice but that was it. Then someone figured the fast leveling exploit and was used in this manner for a while. It was fixed eventually.
Then with the dil wrapper was added. The devs and the authors were thinking that the grinders will stop grinding and start to play missions when they realize that there are plenty available. All they need is a little incentive to look into the dark corner called foundry. But it didn't happen. The story content of a given mission does not compute in the grind equation of dil/hour. Or maybe it does, in a negative way. Hence the clickies become the new fav exploit.
Everyone saw the faliure of the wrapper, so it was changed to fight the clickies. The change did kill them, but introduced a new kind of exploit. The idea was that the player will do a story mission in the mandatory 20 mins. But why would he do that? Isn't doing nothing much easier than doing something? The rumbles were introduced, where the player sits (or skips) through an "epic" or "training" battle without doing anything to get the reward.
Adding reward will only marginally increase the playthrough of story missions. The grinders will still not care, they play exploit missions. For the small number non grinders, the reward is a minor incentive, but still something.
Removing rewards will have the same effect on the playthrough of story missions. The grinders will not care about foundry so the exploit missions would not clog up the search. Subsequently, it would be easier for the small number non grinders to find good missions. That can serve as a minor incentive, too.
All in all, the playthrough rate of story missions will not change whatever you do. The grinders are not interested in story. And the player who are interested in story are playing a different game.
Dude, never ever suggest making Cryptic's grinds harder. The ways to get X resources should increase not decrease since the game has gone Zynga.
You're just being spiteful against a playstyle you don't like.
No, I am simply asserting that it has its place and that particular thing's place might not be in the foundry. Big fan of wild and unreasonable accusations then?
Why is it that you, a grinder, feel you have the right to impose your own agenda as a given, beyond any consideration, and then accuse others of trying to somehow oppress you if they don't care for it?
I agree in spirit but not in the details. I like the idea of having combat simulation missions.
My thoughts:
no drops from "timid creature" 'enemies'
FM and Dil rewards for a combat simulation should be based on number and difficulty of enemies that YOU(and your boffs) kill. Timid creatures don't count.
Kill X number of a specific type of enemy are actually valuable missions for accolade seekers who cannot get certain accolades any other way. So long as the player is involved in the mission and cannot just AFK or timid creature their way through, I do not consider it a cheat.
I really like this "timid creature" not dropping anything idea.
Tying the FM and Dil to the # and difficulty of enemies would probably be difficult, but if it could be done, I really like these two solutions.
And the player who are interested in story are playing a different game.
And Foundry authors are either writing missions for that different game or slapping together grinders that match the quality of Cryptic's slapped together grinders.
I really like this "timid creature" not dropping anything idea.
I like it too, but I doubt it willl get on a programmer's schedule. More likely, the timid behavior will just be removed from our Foundry... IF there is a decision to do something.
Accolade grinds have existed in the Foundry for a long, long time. But they were never really popular. Until know. Why? What changed?
FRAKKIN SEASON 7.
Grinders are not a cause, but a sympton of Cryptic's own bad game design. At least get your ranting right.
Did I say they were the cause?
Nope. Cryptic made the decisions here, but I guarantee you if players didn't participate in these grind systems in the mass numbers they do, Cryptic would either change them or wouldn't put in any more.
Why are the grinders the most favorite missions in the Foundry? Because the clickies don't work anymore. Now you gotta blow up a few mapfuls of stacked-up, disabled battleships to get your "login bonus," so that's what people will do.
And now you can do that every 30 minutes, guess what people in need of dilithium or fleet marks are going to do? All day if necesary. Getting a load of vendor trash to sell, once a day, is not why those missions are so popular. You hit the daily limit somewhere halfway through the first run anyway.
Agreed. Clickies should be reinstated as eligible... however, to discourage authors from making the clickies and getting profit from the players, the dil tip jar should be disabled for missions under five minutes.
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Agreed. Clickies should be reinstated as eligible... however, to discourage authors from making the clickies and getting profit from the players, the dil tip jar should be disabled for missions under five minutes.
Because the Tip jar is such a central element of doing foundry missions...
The only way I think this situation might be fixed is if they finally stopped giving us these temporary solutions.
The design flaw of the wrapper led to the clickies.
The design flaw of the IOR led to the grinders
But if it worked the way that Dstahl says that it should work, then it might be different. If a player spends 15 minutes grinding battleships, that's fine. Give them loot and a reward, if they actually earn the loot.
If someone takes the time to really enjoy an hour long Foundry mission, the system should reward them better for doing so.
Sure we'd still have the afk nonsense, if someone is ingenious enough to space out 25 mobs with a long patrol or something.
The IOR should be repeatable, but it shouldn't privilege short, repeatable, and story-lite content.
Otherwise, I'm kind of with Drogyn and others here.
I'd rather see spotlights and spotlight rewards continue. But take out the rewards for all others, if they can't use them wisely.
With how hard it is to get a mission to qualify, combined with the listing that is dominated by grinders, it will be almost impossible for a new author to get his or her story played.
Guys, when you see something being exploited, like the Timid Creature AI being used to farm, you really should make a note of it in the bugs forum. It may not be on the radar screen to fix any time soon, but it certainly won't be if it's not reported.
I definitely agree that timid creature enemies shouldn't drop loot. That is just prone to exploitation. But we'll see if Cryptic agrees.
Sure we'd still have the afk nonsense, if someone is ingenious enough to space out 25 mobs with a long patrol or something.
And WHEN they did, you all would be right back here with your pitchforks and torches: BURN THE HERETIC!!
Ultimately, your picking another fight with the majority of the playerbase in order to force them to play your way. It never works out the way you planned, as you can see with how abolishing the clickers have turned out for you.
Comments
I make it a habit to always respond to detailed reviews, both good and bad but ESPECIALLY bad. A lot of these have been players that have had bugged runs, and I've managed to turn 1 stars into 4s and 5s just by helping them out. I've also gotten entire fleets to play the mission because of correspondence with a player that really liked the mission but had questions.
I've been trying to think up a good analogy to compare the grinders and storyline missions and how they relate to the player base, and the best I can come up with would be something like Youtube videos vs stage productions.
Go with me on this: With a grinder mission the player is mainly looking for instant gratification in terms of the rewards given, which we can compare to someone relaxing at home (or goofing off at work) and looking for a video that might give them a quick laugh.
If the video isn't any good the investment in time and focus was minimal anyway, so there is little loss. If it is good then they get what they want and can move on, there is very likely not much attachment and at best there might be some small exchange of comments with the author over a forum. In the end it is a throw away experience.
Story missions are more like stage productions in that there is a much greater investment in time and focus. If the play is bad (and plenty are) then there is a much greater loss, the risk of which can immediately turn off potential viewers ( ex. "I could have watched 30 funny cat videos in the time it took to sit through this half-assed version of Hamlet").
The advantage the play has to the video is there can be much more of a personal connection between the play and the viewer. Actors and directors will often talk with the audience after a performance, hold actual conversations and build that relationship that helps to make the positive experience stick. This in turn builds worth of mouth that allows the play to build up a fan base.
TL;DR version: The key for storyline authors to compete with the flood of grinding missions is to better engage their players and build connections. Grinders are something players are going to feel they NEED to do, and it usually won't really matter how they get it. The storyline author should work to make their players to WANT to play their missions, and to get others to play them too.
Hahaa... yeah. At least it's not -that-. I wonder, I know cryptic eventually wasn't involved with CoH, was that pre or post Architect?
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
I agree as well, although I don't contact every review, I do send out a thank you with a reward for playing my entire Spawn of Medusa Series. Sadly, not all who play my series leave written reviews, even though it has grown in rating since the spotlight, so I don't have any way to send anything to those players.
Usually I will send something like a cross faction console or maybe a mirror ship, a purple cxp booster, a skill boost, and usually a couple doff mini-packs. I like to send 5 items including the console/ship so the player feels they got something nice, even though they had no idea they would get it. And it does not matter if they gave it 1 star or 5 stars, if they played the series and left reviews, I reward them.
Of course, In the mail I also plug my other missions, which is something we all would do in this case. But I also mention they can find a good database of missions on SBUGC.com.
I think those that play my 5 part series deserve something more for their time, and the ones that leave a written review give me the opportunity to send them something, plus it gives me the opportunity to converse with players out there who enjoy story type missions and plug the SBUGC site for missions and followers as well.
I have built up a few followers in this fashion, as I'm sure chicochavez has done, and that is important for a foundry author, but still, back on topic, it is the newer and unknown authors who are suffering more from the missions this thread has been discussing. That's where the system needs to change.
DoR :cool:
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
by Duke-of-Rock Available on Holodeck
If the rewards for the official grinders were more, then perhaps foundry ginders wouldn't exist but then this would bring us back to the reason that the rewards for the foundry were put in in the first place, which was to get more players to play foundry stuff.
Is there a chat channel for 'real' foundry stuff? If not... um... why not? I feel that some of the responsibility for promoting story based foundry stuff has to lie with the authors while the devs get on with creat... um fixing bugs, creating their own content and designing the next lock box. Promote the channel(s) on Fleet, Zone, Local or in your bios, whatever, because if such channels exist, then I certainly haven't heard of them.
A very simple way to 'solve' the grinder vs story 'problem' would be to have a checkable 'Grinder?' option in the mission settings area. Both would still give the officer report reward if eligible but only grinders would give drops for defeated enemies. Those with the grinder option unchecked would instead give Commendation XP in the discipline specified by the author for each completed task in the story, so, for example, your ship is ordered to investigate the disappearance of a ship and after doing the first task 'scan for missing vessel', you are awarded 'X' Science or Exploration XP. This mechanic is already present in the diplomacy missions and I see that this too would be open to 'Commendation XP Grinder' style missions, but the longer the mission (the more tasks), the more reward and there could even be a daily XP limit similar to the drop limit for the farming missions. I feel it would be a step in the right direction at least for story authors to be able to get some recognition and appreciation for the work they've put in and would give foundry stuff a more 'official' feel too (think about the story eng/sci/tac accolades)
This has passed ridiculous. Are people so attached to cheating the system that they now are actually calling for someone to legitimize their cheating ?
Loading into a map full of Max level enemies all set to timid so they won't fight back, and are stacked on top of each other so you get 25 kills for 1, and all the Loots is cheating.
Loading into a mission where you set up your Boffs and press a button then go afk for 15 minutes and come back and collect the loots, is cheating.
And now people are calling for these pieces of TRIBBLE to have their own category ?
What the ever living FV** is wrong with people ?
NO.
These things should not have their own category.
Cryptic should instead recognize the damage this does and do something about it.
People SHOULD report these En MASSE.
We should be complaining about this.
Not because we're OH So high and mighty and you should only play our missions, or whatever other maddness you Foundry haters are ascribing to us today.
But because these missions are plainly cheats , or ways to "game" the system, and they are damaging the in game economy.
You can try and defend these steaming piles of manure as real missions, that are somehow valuable. I will continue to laugh at such claims, and simply see them as desperate cheaters trying to somehow defend their cheating ways.
Give these things their own tab ?
How about ... NO.
I can't believe I'm about to say this
But go ahead and remove all rewards from the Foundry.
I'd rather not see the grinders , and know that the people playing story missions are playing them because they actually want story.
I will simply say that any PC who wants to can go gain minimum hundreds of thousands of energy credits (maximum in the millions if they understand the exchange) with absolutely no effort, within 10 minutes.
It doesn't take a genius to figure out that this sends a games economy (even one that runs off multiple currencies) into the toilet. These missions will break the economy given time.
I'd rather see no rewards in the Foundry than that.
Adding a filter to the UI is a fairly straight-forward change Cryptic has the tools to implement.
Removing exploits and grinding behaviors to a complex open system is considerably harder. And, in my experience with City of Heroes, the result is usually draconian limitations to the system that cause headaches for legitimate authors and causes the farmers/exploiters to simply find a different farm/exploit.
The extent to which grinding bothers me is entirely due to people not actually seeking or finding the story stuff.
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
Then I would disagree with them too , man.
Regardless of the reasoning , adding a tab specifically for such grinders, does nothing except legitimize cheating.
Again, take away all rewards from the Foundry.
I do not care, and it may actually be the only solution.
So if grinders want to participate in a poor game design, if they want to keep showing Cryptic that the playerbase loves grind and if they want to perpetuate the exorcism of everything Star Trek from this game, which is what they are doing by making these missions, I say fine, let 'em.
But get them the frack away from my story missions. Better UI or Bust!
I'm also of the opinion hippiejohn that there should be no rewards. Playing a well-done mission is its own reward, and if people can't enjoy their time playing without some sort of carrot dangling in front of them, then what are they doing playing at all?
However. Anyone seen Lincoln? Well mostly-spoiler free version, there's a very influential Congressman who has fought for something his whole life, and part of the story is about him compromising so he can achieve a very important part of that lifelong goal. It isn't a total victory for him, but its an important step.
I think a better Mission UI, with a category list that is the very first screen anyone sees before they see a single mission, is the compromise that would be a major victory. It's not all of what I want, but it is achievable.
Season 7 damaged the economy far, far more. These missions are simply the player's response to absolutely abyssmal piece of TRIBBLE update that jacked up the grind to 11. You want to rage, rage at cryptic.
Otherwise, people have every right to make missions as they see fit -- and not have to fall into whatever category the high and mighty HippeJohn sees as fitting in his Foundry.
/sigh
Accolade grinds have existed in the Foundry for a long, long time. But they were never really popular. Until know. Why? What changed?
FRAKKIN SEASON 7.
Grinders are not a cause, but a sympton of Cryptic's own bad game design. At least get your ranting right.
My thoughts:
no drops from "timid creature" 'enemies'
FM and Dil rewards for a combat simulation should be based on number and difficulty of enemies that YOU(and your boffs) kill. Timid creatures don't count.
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The so called story content was weak to begin with and got worse over time. The story content was slowly replaced with grind content. The players followed suit. The story oriented gamers moved on and the grind oriented players took their place.
The spirit of Trek was minimized to the point where this game is nothing more than a generic MMO with Star Trek skins. Heck I think if the devs lost the franchise tomorrow and subsequently replaced all the models with generic scifi ships, weapons and race names, the people would still stay to grind on.
So at this point the only thing around 80% of the STO players are interested in is the grind and reward. You may not like it, but this is still a fact.
While the foundry lacked the real reward, it was an obscure part of weird and useless things. By the nerds for the nerds you know. The accolade hunt missions were useful for once or twice but that was it. Then someone figured the fast leveling exploit and was used in this manner for a while. It was fixed eventually.
Then with the dil wrapper was added. The devs and the authors were thinking that the grinders will stop grinding and start to play missions when they realize that there are plenty available. All they need is a little incentive to look into the dark corner called foundry. But it didn't happen. The story content of a given mission does not compute in the grind equation of dil/hour. Or maybe it does, in a negative way. Hence the clickies become the new fav exploit.
Everyone saw the faliure of the wrapper, so it was changed to fight the clickies. The change did kill them, but introduced a new kind of exploit. The idea was that the player will do a story mission in the mandatory 20 mins. But why would he do that? Isn't doing nothing much easier than doing something? The rumbles were introduced, where the player sits (or skips) through an "epic" or "training" battle without doing anything to get the reward.
Adding reward will only marginally increase the playthrough of story missions. The grinders will still not care, they play exploit missions. For the small number non grinders, the reward is a minor incentive, but still something.
Removing rewards will have the same effect on the playthrough of story missions. The grinders will not care about foundry so the exploit missions would not clog up the search. Subsequently, it would be easier for the small number non grinders to find good missions. That can serve as a minor incentive, too.
All in all, the playthrough rate of story missions will not change whatever you do. The grinders are not interested in story. And the player who are interested in story are playing a different game.
No, I am simply asserting that it has its place and that particular thing's place might not be in the foundry. Big fan of wild and unreasonable accusations then?
Why is it that you, a grinder, feel you have the right to impose your own agenda as a given, beyond any consideration, and then accuse others of trying to somehow oppress you if they don't care for it?
Kill X number of a specific type of enemy are actually valuable missions for accolade seekers who cannot get certain accolades any other way. So long as the player is involved in the mission and cannot just AFK or timid creature their way through, I do not consider it a cheat.
I really like this "timid creature" not dropping anything idea.
Tying the FM and Dil to the # and difficulty of enemies would probably be difficult, but if it could be done, I really like these two solutions.
And Foundry authors are either writing missions for that different game or slapping together grinders that match the quality of Cryptic's slapped together grinders.
I like it too, but I doubt it willl get on a programmer's schedule. More likely, the timid behavior will just be removed from our Foundry... IF there is a decision to do something.
Did I say they were the cause?
Nope. Cryptic made the decisions here, but I guarantee you if players didn't participate in these grind systems in the mass numbers they do, Cryptic would either change them or wouldn't put in any more.
Cause, no. Not helping it go away, yes.
And now you can do that every 30 minutes, guess what people in need of dilithium or fleet marks are going to do? All day if necesary. Getting a load of vendor trash to sell, once a day, is not why those missions are so popular. You hit the daily limit somewhere halfway through the first run anyway.
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Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9
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Its kinda useless on NPCs, they don't get shot at - unless the AOE bug is still around...
Because the Tip jar is such a central element of doing foundry missions...
Anyways... clickies would be fine if they gave you a reward equal to the effort of the person who plays them... IE nearly nothing.
My character Tsin'xing
The design flaw of the wrapper led to the clickies.
The design flaw of the IOR led to the grinders
But if it worked the way that Dstahl says that it should work, then it might be different. If a player spends 15 minutes grinding battleships, that's fine. Give them loot and a reward, if they actually earn the loot.
If someone takes the time to really enjoy an hour long Foundry mission, the system should reward them better for doing so.
Sure we'd still have the afk nonsense, if someone is ingenious enough to space out 25 mobs with a long patrol or something.
The IOR should be repeatable, but it shouldn't privilege short, repeatable, and story-lite content.
Otherwise, I'm kind of with Drogyn and others here.
I'd rather see spotlights and spotlight rewards continue. But take out the rewards for all others, if they can't use them wisely.
With how hard it is to get a mission to qualify, combined with the listing that is dominated by grinders, it will be almost impossible for a new author to get his or her story played.
I definitely agree that timid creature enemies shouldn't drop loot. That is just prone to exploitation. But we'll see if Cryptic agrees.
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This is why I hate these types of missions.
please go play my new one.
Hell I'll add a map or two if I need to to make people happy if it doesn't end up qualifying.
Have fun.
I have no more to say on the subject.
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under review.
have fun
get loots
Peace
And WHEN they did, you all would be right back here with your pitchforks and torches: BURN THE HERETIC!!
Ultimately, your picking another fight with the majority of the playerbase in order to force them to play your way. It never works out the way you planned, as you can see with how abolishing the clickers have turned out for you.