They're great and all....well, actually, too great. So great that when entering an Elite STF I am on my knees in front of my keyboard praying there is at least one.
I mean, let's be honest, DPS rules this game, especially PvE. It doesn't matter if you can take damage, and since most science abilities have been nerfed stupid, Escorts are the ruling class of Federation ships in STO.
So, could we, like, change that? At least in PvE?
In PvE carriers can do every bit the damage of an escort these days. They also bring far more utility and a better tank most of the time. This new Dominion dreadnought in particular will probably be the highest DPS ship in the game
Above average use of components, but definitely had fun ^^
I still think that AI was fine, it was just particularly lethal when coupled to the lol-mechanics that were already granted to the borg to compensate their lack of AI...
Yea... be nice if the borg were, you know, Borg...
I had STO break for most of S7 and some time before and rturned recently. And I rarly play PvE after reaching VA - stupid enemies = boring
And you say they buffed AI and then rolled back? WHY! If the new Borg and new AI was too hard why have they not brought the Borg to the old levels while leaving the new AI?
Because that would have been the sensible option that would have given us challenging enemies not reliant on cheap mechanics like invisible, one-shot torps. And we all know the sensible option never gets taken.
The problem here is: Why do we even have different ship classes if they all do the same anyway, which is, killing stuff?
Now, if each class was best at defeating a different class of targets... that might work.
pretty much a rock-paper-scissors kind of thing. So what would counter what?
Also, you guys talk about how Escorts are overpowered when the captain's a tactical officer. idk if you guys thought about it, but an engineering officer on an Escort can be just as scary, if not worse in some situations.
Think about it: You're going up against an escort (let's say a Defiant class) equipped with a DHC, two dual cannons and quantum torpedo launcher for fore weapons, while aft are a pair of turrets. The captain is an engineer. As you're eating away at the front shield array of the escort, the player piloting it activates Rotate Shield Frequency, then activates the engineering boff's emergency power to shields, along with either the tactical boff's tactical team or science boff's science team in sequence to completely negate your shield damage.
Now let's say you bring the escort's hull below 50%. Since the engineering captain has the abilities evasive maneuvers, rotate shield frequency, brace for impact, ramming speed, abandon ship, and two other abilities I can't remember by the time they reach the rank of Captain and the weapon's config of the escort is set up so it's facing its enemy almost all the time in order to do damage, this can be a very dangerous position to be in. The escort's captain activates ramming speed and continues along the previous course right at your ship. While on this course, the captain also activates brace for impact to reduce crew fatalities if the escort survives, evasive maneuvers to increase speed (I think ramming speed deals more damage based on the speed at which you hit another ship), and then the tactical boff's Attack Pattern Omega to increase the speed even more. Now let's say both your ship and the escort survive this kamikaze attack. The escort's captain then uses Abandon Ship to self destruct and hopefully take your ship along with him.
The thing to realize is that engineers can take the existing focus of an escort on forward firepower and use it to easily turn their own ship into what could be the most dangerous weapon into the game, dealing damage to you perhaps four times (while moving to ram into your ship the escort's still firing, when it hits it does damage, when it self destructs that deals a large amount of damage, and Abandon Ship also hits you with the usual warp core breach damage) before blowing up if you're unlucky. not to mention that if they don't they still allow the ship to deal massive amounts of damage while granting a shield regen buff in a pinch.
Wrong forum bro. What you're describing is a PvP situation. In PvE engscorts are sub-optimal. They don't have APA3 (which btw will negate almost completely RSF), they don't have FOMM (which timed correctly you can get between the TT cycle, which will still TRIBBLE your target), or TI or GDF. All of those abilities amplify the escorts already impressive damage output. Which is what this thread is commenting on.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
In PvE it does not matter what you fly. Because it is doable in almost anything. There is no point to yell on someones ship choice on build, in such trivial game experience as STO PvE. Slow moving targets, dumb NPC, predictable patterns -> *yawn*.
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Actually what I was giving an example. PVP or PVE, this is something that could happen. Just that in PVE your teammate will suddenly decide their ship is a missile and fly off to crash into whatever ship he was firing at before blowing up either from the impact or from manually self destructing.
You are very confused. The only Engineering captain-specific thing you've mentioned is Rotate Shield Frequency. RSF gives a low amount of shield regen, but a good amount of shield resistance.
Everything else is available to every other career as well, so your example makes no sense about Engineers in escorts, since everyone else can do it as well.
This is Trek and we'd like to see more than one way (pew pew) to solve a problem or win a battle. Up to a point, we can.
But pew pew is so darned effective in comparison, it's no wonder that people will gravitate to high-damage builds and gimmick powers.
Which in turn drives up the requirement that all ships be able to tank a bit, drives the demand that players with non-DPS builds should specialize in magic-space-heals or gimmick builds (like drain, etc), and incites people who don't fly escorts to demand the ability to "do moar dmg" or turn faster or what have you.
Still, I'd hate to see scenarios where you have to have "Power X" to complete it... what happens to folks who aren't running with that power in their arsenal? Even the worst build has to have at least the potential of completing a normal PvE mission.
So what could be done to put the kind of variety in the game that would make many different approaches possible (without gimmick consoles)?
Some thoughts:
- Combos: The ability to chain all kinds of powers in different combinations with a chance of producing added effects. For example, what if chaining Evasive Manuvers, Emergency Power to Aux, and Tractor Beam had a chance of slinging the target away from you? (Probably not the best example, but I'll go with it)
- Ship-based Skill Modifiers: Give each ship model specific skill modifiers so that ship is potentially better suited for using certain abilities than other ships are. For example, maybe a LRSV is better at using Gravity Wells, or a Defiant class ship gets an edge with Evasive Maneuvers, things like that.
- Navigational Hazards: More ways to use the "terrain" than just blocking LoS with a handy asteroid. Add to that the ability to counter, affect, or mitigate navigational hazards with certain powers.
- Destructable Anomalies: What if you could shoot at an anomaly (or use a power on it) as you're flying past it, and the destruction of the anomaly triggers some kind of effect? Just another way of "using the terrain".
(EDIT: btw... this kind of thing would also spice up PvP, too...)
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The easy solution, as I've stated many times, is to create combat variety.
Ships that are easier to kill with strait up hull damage while they still have shields up via things like DEM and sci abilities.
Accuracy differences between beams and cannons that make beams ideal for fast nimble target killing.
Give cannons (or some cannons) resistance penetration so they deal more damage against high resist targets than beams would.
Creative players would of course find ways around these systems for variety sake which is good as well. Against the first example a subsystem disable would be great, the second any immobilize ability, and the third via perhaps shield stripping.
Right now though the only difference between 'how to kill target' in PvE is how much raw damage one can pour into it instead of any creative differences or variety.
- Combos: The ability to chain all kinds of powers in different combinations with a chance of producing added effects. For example, what if chaining Evasive Manuvers, Emergency Power to Aux, and Tractor Beam had a chance of slinging the target away from you? (Probably not the best example, but I'll go with it)
- Ship-based Skill Modifiers: Give each ship model specific skill modifiers so that ship is potentially better suited for using certain abilities than other ships are. For example, maybe a LRSV is better at using Gravity Wells, or a Defiant class ship gets an edge with Evasive Maneuvers, things like that.
- Navigational Hazards: More ways to use the "terrain" than just blocking LoS with a handy asteroid. Add to that the ability to counter, affect, or mitigate navigational hazards with certain powers.
- Destructable Anomalies: What if you could shoot at an anomaly (or use a power on it) as you're flying past it, and the destruction of the anomaly triggers some kind of effect? Just another way of "using the terrain".
(EDIT: btw... this kind of thing would also spice up PvP, too...)
This would be amazing IMHO.
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Comments
In PvE carriers can do every bit the damage of an escort these days. They also bring far more utility and a better tank most of the time. This new Dominion dreadnought in particular will probably be the highest DPS ship in the game
Yea... be nice if the borg were, you know, Borg...
And you say they buffed AI and then rolled back? WHY! If the new Borg and new AI was too hard why have they not brought the Borg to the old levels while leaving the new AI?
pretty much a rock-paper-scissors kind of thing. So what would counter what?
Also, you guys talk about how Escorts are overpowered when the captain's a tactical officer. idk if you guys thought about it, but an engineering officer on an Escort can be just as scary, if not worse in some situations.
Think about it: You're going up against an escort (let's say a Defiant class) equipped with a DHC, two dual cannons and quantum torpedo launcher for fore weapons, while aft are a pair of turrets. The captain is an engineer. As you're eating away at the front shield array of the escort, the player piloting it activates Rotate Shield Frequency, then activates the engineering boff's emergency power to shields, along with either the tactical boff's tactical team or science boff's science team in sequence to completely negate your shield damage.
Now let's say you bring the escort's hull below 50%. Since the engineering captain has the abilities evasive maneuvers, rotate shield frequency, brace for impact, ramming speed, abandon ship, and two other abilities I can't remember by the time they reach the rank of Captain and the weapon's config of the escort is set up so it's facing its enemy almost all the time in order to do damage, this can be a very dangerous position to be in. The escort's captain activates ramming speed and continues along the previous course right at your ship. While on this course, the captain also activates brace for impact to reduce crew fatalities if the escort survives, evasive maneuvers to increase speed (I think ramming speed deals more damage based on the speed at which you hit another ship), and then the tactical boff's Attack Pattern Omega to increase the speed even more. Now let's say both your ship and the escort survive this kamikaze attack. The escort's captain then uses Abandon Ship to self destruct and hopefully take your ship along with him.
The thing to realize is that engineers can take the existing focus of an escort on forward firepower and use it to easily turn their own ship into what could be the most dangerous weapon into the game, dealing damage to you perhaps four times (while moving to ram into your ship the escort's still firing, when it hits it does damage, when it self destructs that deals a large amount of damage, and Abandon Ship also hits you with the usual warp core breach damage) before blowing up if you're unlucky. not to mention that if they don't they still allow the ship to deal massive amounts of damage while granting a shield regen buff in a pinch.
Wrong forum bro. What you're describing is a PvP situation. In PvE engscorts are sub-optimal. They don't have APA3 (which btw will negate almost completely RSF), they don't have FOMM (which timed correctly you can get between the TT cycle, which will still TRIBBLE your target), or TI or GDF. All of those abilities amplify the escorts already impressive damage output. Which is what this thread is commenting on.
You are very confused. The only Engineering captain-specific thing you've mentioned is Rotate Shield Frequency. RSF gives a low amount of shield regen, but a good amount of shield resistance.
Everything else is available to every other career as well, so your example makes no sense about Engineers in escorts, since everyone else can do it as well.
This is the heart of the problem, I think.
This is Trek and we'd like to see more than one way (pew pew) to solve a problem or win a battle. Up to a point, we can.
But pew pew is so darned effective in comparison, it's no wonder that people will gravitate to high-damage builds and gimmick powers.
Which in turn drives up the requirement that all ships be able to tank a bit, drives the demand that players with non-DPS builds should specialize in magic-space-heals or gimmick builds (like drain, etc), and incites people who don't fly escorts to demand the ability to "do moar dmg" or turn faster or what have you.
Still, I'd hate to see scenarios where you have to have "Power X" to complete it... what happens to folks who aren't running with that power in their arsenal? Even the worst build has to have at least the potential of completing a normal PvE mission.
So what could be done to put the kind of variety in the game that would make many different approaches possible (without gimmick consoles)?
Some thoughts:
- Combos: The ability to chain all kinds of powers in different combinations with a chance of producing added effects. For example, what if chaining Evasive Manuvers, Emergency Power to Aux, and Tractor Beam had a chance of slinging the target away from you? (Probably not the best example, but I'll go with it)
- Ship-based Skill Modifiers: Give each ship model specific skill modifiers so that ship is potentially better suited for using certain abilities than other ships are. For example, maybe a LRSV is better at using Gravity Wells, or a Defiant class ship gets an edge with Evasive Maneuvers, things like that.
- Navigational Hazards: More ways to use the "terrain" than just blocking LoS with a handy asteroid. Add to that the ability to counter, affect, or mitigate navigational hazards with certain powers.
- Destructable Anomalies: What if you could shoot at an anomaly (or use a power on it) as you're flying past it, and the destruction of the anomaly triggers some kind of effect? Just another way of "using the terrain".
(EDIT: btw... this kind of thing would also spice up PvP, too...)
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
Ships that are easier to kill with strait up hull damage while they still have shields up via things like DEM and sci abilities.
Accuracy differences between beams and cannons that make beams ideal for fast nimble target killing.
Give cannons (or some cannons) resistance penetration so they deal more damage against high resist targets than beams would.
Creative players would of course find ways around these systems for variety sake which is good as well. Against the first example a subsystem disable would be great, the second any immobilize ability, and the third via perhaps shield stripping.
Right now though the only difference between 'how to kill target' in PvE is how much raw damage one can pour into it instead of any creative differences or variety.
This would be amazing IMHO.
Elim Garak