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Sigh....Escorts...
kiloace
Member Posts: 488 Arc User
They're great and all....well, actually, too great. So great that when entering an Elite STF I am on my knees in front of my keyboard praying there is at least one.
I mean, let's be honest, DPS rules this game, especially PvE. It doesn't matter if you can take damage, and since most science abilities have been nerfed stupid, Escorts are the ruling class of Federation ships in STO.
So, could we, like, change that? At least in PvE?
I mean, let's be honest, DPS rules this game, especially PvE. It doesn't matter if you can take damage, and since most science abilities have been nerfed stupid, Escorts are the ruling class of Federation ships in STO.
So, could we, like, change that? At least in PvE?
Post edited by kiloace on
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The problem is Cryptic's mission design. Think about it.
Let me think of an example mission... hmm...
How about on the first part of a mission you have to break through a huge line of turrets.
You could destroy them, but you waste time doing so because there are so many.
A Cruiser could aggro and tank them, while Escorts and Science ships fly next to him and hurry through.
In the center clear of the turrets there is some priority target to be destroyed, quickly done by Escorts.
Some try to flee, a Science ship can hold them in place though with a gravity well!
Or well... you waste time again by having to break through the turret line yet again.
Vornek@oberlerchner123 - Join Date: July 2008
just yesterday I had one ISE with no tactical captain and no escort at all, and we did it with optional too.
STF do not require so much dps, and cruisers and science vessel can have enough dps... my wells has enough dps to clear alone 2 trasformers and a gate and taking care of one side probes in kithomer space elite... I need time, but 15 minutes are enough.
Playing STO spamming FAW is like playing chess using always the computer's suggested moves
Where is the need for sci and cruiser here?
You would need to force the players to use those ships special abilities. Like: this ship can be stopped only via GW/Tyken/Energy Siphon III. Or: this target can be destroyed only with DEM III. Or you need Aceton III to stop this uber cube spraying one-shooting balls of death. If it's optional and can be done with raw firepower - escorts will be alway better.
As a science main, my understanding, as gleamed from the forums, is that the "imbalance" isn't science powers per se, but one particular PvP combination:
MVAE + Tactical Captain buffs (AP-A, FoMM, GDF) + Aux battery + Lt. Cmdr Science Power = one hit kill (or close enough with cannon and torp skills tacked on) against opposition PvP escorts.
Said combination creates situations where a Tac, with little to no science skill, can pop a GW I that does more damage than a Sci, fully specced, tossing GW III. Most other science damage skills "suffer" the same way...
Looking at it, GW, Tractor Beam, TBR, PSW - all deal kinetic damage. Feedback pulse deals, IIRC (as I don't use it a lot) either a generic "energy" type or a reflection of what damage is being used. Same with CPB, but I think CPB is tachyon along with Tachyon beam - which accounts for, as far as I know, all the science damage-dealers. Of course, tachyon & kinetic are 100% affected by the tac captain buffs, since they share the damage type of existing weapons - the game just checks damage type, not source.
Problem identified. Cryptic's current solution is to reduce these damages to the point that they aren't a problem when combined with tac skills. Side effect is to reduce the ability for science ships to deal skill-based damage. To bring science damage levels "back" to the point they were pre-nerf, Cryptic has been releasing all sorts of "alternate" Science damages - carriers (pet DPS), Vesta-Aventine Lance, Temporal "reset" that saves science ship but not the remaining target(s), cannons on Vesta, etc.
Alternate solution - new damage type(s), for example, we create new damage classes "particle" and "graviton". Particle will be science's "energy" damage, Graviton "kinetic". Tachyon beam, CPB, feedback now issues particle damage, and GW / Tractor beam / TBR / PSW issue graviton damage. This way we don't blow the balance between anti-shield (energy) skills and anti-hull (kinetic) skills.
Obviously, outside of maybe slipping anti-graviton and anti-particle onto a couple of the "universal" armors, a couple of new anti-science armors are issued, so that a ship has to kit out for either anti-escort or anti-science duty - which sorta makes it harder to defend an escort (but cruisers may have enough consoles to slot both armor types), and can add a whole new dimension to PvP - if the "current optimal premade" is 2 Escorts (DPS) 2 Cruisers (healing) and a Science (disruption), if they all go in with "anti-weapons" defenses, the Sci will wipe the table, so a cruiser and escort would have to switch to anti-science (to live through science disruptions), but being anti-science opens them up to easier kills by the weapon-users, heck, the anti-science ships may actually feel pressure from the cruiser's "pressure DPS".
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
now THIS sounds like a fun foundry mission
It just hit me:
Okay, said turret wall could be gateway-esque in it's HPs, so that it takes a good 5 minutes of escort fire to blast a big enough hole, making the "tank me" approach more desirable...
But then again, so is the "huddle up and hit full impulse through the wall" tactic. How can we get the balance between 3 targets that need aggroing (CSV and BFaW I both randomly fire on only 3 targets), that do enough damage to make a bum rush fail but yet is low enough for the tank to survive extended exposure to it?
And the center runs into a whole new set of problems. Keying the center to one given science power (your case, GW), means that the MVAE or whatever cruiser(s) have LtCmdr science can go in ready with the "one desired science power" and own the center. Having a group of weak enemies = CSV lunch, and having a couple of them at "very strong" levels means that "single delay" powers like TB, EWP, etc. can delay them as well as a sci.
Some random thoughts to plan this potential foundry mission around...
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
Al Rivera hates Klingons
Star Trek Online: Agents of Jack Emmert
All cloaks should be canon.
To all the 'we need content that requires a tank' I say fine I"ll bring my armatige that has such a high bonus defense only 1 in 4 shots hit her and did I mention she has max shield resist thanks to EPTS 3?
Or the 'we need content that requires CC' I say thats fine too, I got an MVAE and a timeship although the Vesta really isn't that shabby either for the job.
- Fix beams, either with a new 'cruiser only + some sci' beam array or just fix them in general.
- Fix damage scaling of boff abilities so a skilled gravity well + tractor beam can do more than tickle a target without breaking PvP
- Create engagements that require variety, such as gateways that nearly insta-kill anything within 8km so beams can be more effective in that situation. Enemies with a high defense and maneuver quickly to make accuracy important and are difficult to keep in the front arc without an immobilize. An enemy with 75% shield resist and 50k shields but paper thin hull so bypassing the shield is more effective than whittling it down.
New science-y damage types that don't benefit from tac buffs. Now that is a very good idea. I miss being able to kill things with science, I really do.
That was changed a long time ago, a sci with GW3 and some extra points/consoles/deflector in particle generators will do a lot more damage with it then a tac - guess why u seldom see tacs in sciships anymore. Look at the description of AP:A - it will boost weapon damage, not every damage. Most people with a TAC in a MVAE will put a shield or hull heal at their ltnt. cmdr. sci slot for pvp.
Regards
Even though Escorts are relatively easy to fly, most people cant do that either. My Ody ownes most of the escorts out there with ease. While tanking TacCube+Gate and doing its 6k DPS. And that built is an conservative one with EptW 1...
That's actually already been implemented. Sci kinetic damage is now totally separate from other kinetic damage, and shield drains have their own special way of dealing shield only damage. That's been the case for several months. But they still keep nerfing them over and over again. My CPB used to be able to strip half a facing off a medium level PvE target like a Sphere or Escort, but now, with the same skills, I can't even see the effects.
I have the patrol escort on my sci officer, can tank as much as my wells easily just by cycling defensive skills appropriately and having decent timing when using them, also does alot more DPS than my wells.
Though i still currently am only flying the wells, even though the escort is, far, superior.
I agree with so much of this post!
- Cruisers and Science vessels should get a damage bonus for using beams.
- I agree with the idea of making each type of ship effective at dealing damage in a different way. Sure, escorts can unload everything on a target, but Science vessels have a more laidback, tactile fighting style that involves using their (not useless) powers.
- Its not so much we need tanking content, but more the content we have should be tankable. I'll be blunt here, it seems to me running STFs benefits Escort/Tactical Captains the most, because
a) They deal the most damage, and can therefore kill things the quickest where they'd need to.
b) The other options are tanking and science powers. Science powers do not have enough effect in any situation that it'd be a better alternative to big guns, and tanking...Elite STFs...I shouldn't have to say anything. When you'll die anyway, its better to have big guns.
the wells is probably the best sci ship ever...
as every sci ship it has subsystem targeting, sensor scan, one cmd science station and +15 aux, moreover you can configure the universal station to have a lt cmd tactical (so a TT and 2x THY) and one more lt sci station. Using only one hyperplasma torpedo and 2-3 projectile officers, because of its turn rate the wells is not only a very good sci vessell for buffing/debuffing but also an exceptional torpedo boat.
If you compare the wells with the fleet LRSV, the wells can han have not only the cmd sci station, but also a lt cmd and a lt sci station; both the ship have the same consoles layout, but the wells has a better turn rate and the temporal console is better than the ablative armor console.
Really the wells is the best science ship we have ever had.
Playing STO spamming FAW is like playing chess using always the computer's suggested moves
The wells is as much a sci ship like the breen ship is a cruiser. They are more like escorts with a sci/eng specialisation. So no real sci ship. And you dont need it for stfs, normal sci ships work just fine.
Thats because this is a war of opinions. While Escorts are easier to fly, Cruisers and Sci ships need work and time to learn, how they work best. Most people dont event try and so they just hate escorts. But since I fly a Ody with my eng, I cant understand that opinion. Because you can do lots of dmg with a cruiser, and can take much much more dmg than an escort.
Escort Team on Hive? Wouldnt like that very well
I guess you may have a point, but raw damage just seems like the way to go.
And please don't talk to me about hive, too many bad experiences.
the LRSVR is a shience vessell ok? so the fleet LRSVR...
LRSVR:
tier 5 science vessel (by description)
hull 29700
shield modifier 1.43
weapons: 3 + 3
crew 200
lt tactical station
lt engineering station
ensign science station
lt cmd science station
cmd science station
device slots: 3
turn rate: 12
consoles: 3 tactical, 3 engineering, 4 science
+15 power to aux
subsystem targeting
sensor analysis
wells:
tier 5 science vessel (by description)
hull: 30000
shield modifier 1.45
weapons: 3 + 3
crew: 250
ensign eng station
cmd science station (like the fleet LRSVR)
lt science station (better than the ensign station of the LRSVR)
universal lt station (that you can assign to a tactical officer, so the same of fleet LRSVR)
universal lt cmd station (you can assign it to a scince officer, so the same of fleet LRSVR)
device slots: 3
turn rate: 15
consoles: 3 tactical, 3 engineering, 4 science
+15 power to aux (like every science vessel)
subsystem targeting (like every science vessel)
sensor analysis (like every science vessel)
No matter what you think... the well has everithing a science vessel has, instead it hasn' t the minimum turn rate of a tier 5 escort, it hasn't the 4 tactical consoles of an escort, it hasn't a cmd tactical station, it can't equip DHC...
the well is simply a science vessel at all, better than the fleet LRSVR because of the better turn rate, the little more crew, the little more shields modifier, the little more hull... It's not me telling that... the stats are, its attributes are
If you compare the well to a cruiser or an escort you will not find anything of a cruiser or a escort in it.
I fly escorts with my tactical toons, and flyed for one year the LRSVR with my sci toon (now flying the wells), and flying cruisers with my engineer toon... So mine is not simply the opinion of a player just looking at the wiki, but the opinion of a player who's flying escorts, cruisers and science vessels every day. Nothing I do with a escort I can do with the wells, nothing I do with my cruiser I can do with the wells, and everything I did with my LRSVR I do better with the wells.
I play HSE with my escorts and the wells... it's not a tragedy... you simply have to learn what your ship can do and cannot do and how to face your opponent... if you undestand it, HSE isn't so much more difficult than ISE
Playing STO spamming FAW is like playing chess using always the computer's suggested moves
You want a science vessel that does damage? RSV is your ship. FRSV is if you really want a party.
Tier 5 Science Vessel
Hull: 29700
Shield mod: 1.43
Weapons: 3/3
Crew: 350
Device Slots: 3
Turn Rate: 13
Consoles: 4 tac/2 eng/4 sci
BOff Layout:
Cmdr Sci
LtCmdr Sci
Lt Tac
Ensign Tac
Lt Engi
+15 aux, SST.
What more could you want?
a science vessel should buff/debuff before doing damage (however my wells has 5000+ dps using a build bof buff/debuff first of all)...
that ship has just one tactical console more, that help (but you pay in resistance/tanking) becouse of 1 engineering console less), but does not mean that the wells isn't really a science vessel and can't have dps.
Playing STO spamming FAW is like playing chess using always the computer's suggested moves
Why do I mainly see cruisers out there?
Don't get me wrong, DPS is fine and all... But there are clearly people out there with cruiser builds they feel are really good for what they do.
Because, for better or worse, most of the content in this game is designed to be solo-able; and the objectives are pretty much the same regardless of your career path or ship ('kill x enemy squadrons', and such like). Changing that would require redoing every mission in the game that isn't an STF or Fleet Action; so that won't be happening.
The result of this is that every type of ship needs to be equally capable, since every type of ship faces equal challenges; but they aren't.
Why settle for 5k DPS when you can do 8-10 in an escort instead? The faster you kill, the faster you get the loots and the more loots you gets per hour.
It wont work in DPS centered game. Constant damage sounds reasonable for PvP only. In PvE there is no reason for constant pressure as your targets are not healing, don't have support, CC etc. Constant pressure dealers suffer in terms of time needed to kill something. And that places them far below burst damage dealers when it comes to PvE. Sure, can do all the mission in all ship types, ESTF too. It does not change the fact that escorts are the best choice for all the missions.
The difference in the ships should be general behavior of ships and play style: slow fortress with lot of damage and survivability vs fast zoom and boom with lots of damage and speed defenses vs something in between. Cruiser, escort, sci-ship.
Either that or fix AI and make the PvE enemies intelligent and using BOFF power, healing etc. This would both mitigate the importance of escort DPS and bring CC/debuff into play, as well as the need for pressure damage to mitigate AI healing and the healing for players in prolonged battles.
I wont count on AI changes. On the other hand you can say that the "bring DPS to other ship types" is implemented in a way via lockbox, C-Store ships and pet spam (DHC/fast turning cruisers, sci carriers etc) but this way of implementation only makes this game worse as those things are not easily available for anyone and are limiting the game experience. Forcing to use one or two specific playstyle. In a twisted way Cryptic implemented new "trinity" setup for PvE with lockbox/C-Store:
- spam
- DHC cruiser
- tac in escort
More or less. That's pretty much how the system was designed; but runaway resists have made beams a little obsolete, and sci powers have been nerfed into oblivion (or resists against them have been over-buffed: one or the other).
Actually, both. CPB, for example, has had its tooltip value reduced by a third in the past couple of months, while at the same time NPC resistance to it has been boosted massively. It has gone from stripping half a facing off of medium level NPCs to having no visible effect at all. Similarly, PSW used to give up to 6 seconds of stun, now it gives up to 2 seconds, and since S7 borg ships from cube up have been given total resistance to that effect, it doesn't even break tractor beams anymore.
Oh the week of gloriously intelligent Borg and all the wonderfully chaotic and riotous ranting on the forums.
Shame they rolled back the AI updates when S7 went live.
Above average use of components, but definitely had fun ^^
I still think that AI was fine, it was just particularly lethal when coupled to the lol-mechanics that were already granted to the borg to compensate their lack of AI...