I liked how you used the time stamp of a sto perspective, a universe where the Connie is still all over the place.
At T2...where it's undergone 164 years of refits and retrofits to still be around.
C'mon, if somebody wanted to be tricky and get an endgame Connie in the game - it wouldn't be as a "T5" ship. It wouldn't be there with the other RA/VA ships.
No, the enterprising advocate would suggest it as a Fleet T5. After all, Fleet vessels are built by the individual fleets at their starbases. They're not something being built by Starfleet or the Federation. Because neither Starfleet nor the Federation would be building RA/VA versions of the ship...
...kind of like, you know - the other Fleet ships that neither Starfleet nor the Federation would be building at the RA/VA level. Yet, individual fleets are building them at their starbases.
Cryptic created that problem...players wanting an endgame Connie should exploit it.
They shouldn't expect that either Starfleet or the Federation would be building them at a RA/VA level...nor have any they've refit to that level...what individual fleets build though, well - that's a different story, right?
The admiral who speaks to Picard never mentions using any out of service ships, he in fact states that they are being recalled into the area. If they were really so desperate for fighting forces they would have brought those scout ships you see get blown up by mars.
There were only forty ships in the wolf 359 fleet. That's a paltry count compared to what star fleet is really capable of.
Then show me another instance where we ever see a confirmed Connie outside of time travel. Where in the vast fleets during the Dominion War do we ever see one?
Even Picard later confirms that there's a Constitution class as a museum ship in S6E4 Relics of TNG. Why would there be a museum ship of a class still in active service? Especially after all the trouble they were having rebuilding the fleet after Wolf 359. If the class was still viable, why was it not in active service?
There were only forty ships in the wolf 359 fleet. That's a paltry count compared to what star fleet is really capable of.
The fleet size arguments for the Connie are even worse than they are for the Ambassador. But again, as has been pointed out consistently - Cryptic's decisions to include or exclude certain ships has nothing to do with logic. They know there would be money in it - do you not think that if they could do it that they would not do it? They've made other T2 vessels available at T5 via the Fleet system... if they could Fleet Connie, they would. Much like they were finally able to get the Ambassador in the game at endgame (which makes no sense either)...
...it's about fighting the right fight, etc, etc, etc.
Then show me another instance where we ever see a confirmed Connie outside of time travel. Where in the vast fleets during the Dominion War do we ever see one?
Even Picard later confirms that there's a Constitution class as a museum ship in S6E4 Relics of TNG. Why would there be a museum ship of a class still in active service? Especially after all the trouble they were having rebuilding the fleet after Wolf 359. If the class was still viable, why was it not in active service?
Just because there is a tos era Connie in a museum does not mean the refits were discontinued. Art museums often have modern works inside of them, history museums have areas dedicated to rare animals.
More importantly, just seeing a ship once does not automatically make it a fluke. We only see the Saratoga, centaur, and many other ships once, but no one ever argues they have been recalled.
At T2...where it's undergone 164 years of refits and retrofits to still be around.
C'mon, if somebody wanted to be tricky and get an endgame Connie in the game - it wouldn't be as a "T5" ship. It wouldn't be there with the other RA/VA ships.
No, the enterprising advocate would suggest it as a Fleet T5. After all, Fleet vessels are built by the individual fleets at their starbases. They're not something being built by Starfleet or the Federation. Because neither Starfleet nor the Federation would be building RA/VA versions of the ship...
...kind of like, you know - the other Fleet ships that neither Starfleet nor the Federation would be building at the RA/VA level. Yet, individual fleets are building them at their starbases.
Cryptic created that problem...players wanting an endgame Connie should exploit it.
They shouldn't expect that either Starfleet or the Federation would be building them at a RA/VA level...nor have any they've refit to that level...what individual fleets build though, well - that's a different story, right?
I seem to have misread the intentions of your post, I thought you were another hater trolling and I apologize. I completely agree with your sentiments, my signature is a permanent plea for fleet grade refit goodness.
The fleet size arguments for the Connie are even worse than they are for the Ambassador. But again, as has been pointed out consistently - Cryptic's decisions to include or exclude certain ships has nothing to do with logic. They know there would be money in it - do you not think that if they could do it that they would not do it? They've made other T2 vessels available at T5 via the Fleet system... if they could Fleet Connie, they would. Much like they were finally able to get the Ambassador in the game at endgame (which makes no sense either)...
...it's about fighting the right fight, etc, etc, etc.
There's something weird about the situation with the Connie.
Its not that Cryptic doesn't want to, we know they'll do anything for money at this point. For some reason CBS is putting the kibosh on an end game Connie. According to Gecko in one of his interviews, it was an uphill battle to include it in game at all, at any level. Yet we still have the D'kir at T5 from the jump, makes no sense. There are still a few that swears its all Cryptic's fault somehow, or the devs just hate the Connie, but that just doesn't wash. Because you know...money.
I can make a few guesses as to why, but what the truth is they've never said.
More importantly, just seeing a ship once does not automatically make it a fluke. We only see the Saratoga, centaur, and many other ships once, but no one ever argues they have been recalled.
Not really, the Saratoga was just a modification of an already existing frame. Just like the Lantree and Bozeman was a variant on the same basic space frame.
But that aside, my hang up with the Connie is that its a cruiser. A tiny cruiser. By volume, you could fit a Connie refit inside a single Galaxy class nacelle with room to spare. Even an Intrepid class is very nearly three times the volume, even if its roughly the same length. (appearances can be very deceiving)
If a Constitution can function just as well as a cruiser as any of the more modern and larger cruisers, that negates any and all reason for there to have ever been an Excelsior, Ambassador, Galaxy, Sovereign, Odyssey, etc etc. I can't possibly suspend my Trek disbelief enough to accept that a ship a fraction the size can take and give as much of a pounding as ships upwards of 27 times its volume. More for the Odyssey.
You couldn't possibly cram enough structure, shielding, power generation, hull thickness and weaponry in there to make up that massive amount of difference. Any miniaturization you apply to that Connie could be applied to the larger ships in spades.
I am quite surprised that noone has thought of the obvious way to get a Tier 5 connie in the game. Remember the episode In the Mirror Darkly and how the NX Enterprise encountered the futuristic defiant. The Tholians We already have not only future time ships but MU Ships so who's to say that the Tholians haven't dabbled in time travel and actually brought retro ships to the future. Also we are at war so that means they could be using older ships to replace holes in the defense of the federation the Klingons themselves could have something similar with older birds of preys and other ships.
Now don't get us wrong I like TOS but I'm not really fussed on if they do include a connie or any ship in the game as am game does not have to be canon. But I can understand why people want it and can imagine that it will make PWE a lot of money if they can pressurise CBS in giving them the rights to have a t5 version in game.
NO TO ARC
Vice Admiral Volmack ISS Thundermole
Brigadier General Jokag IKS Gorkan
Centurion Kares RRW Tomalak
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Not really, the Saratoga was just a modification of an already existing frame. Just like the Lantree and Bozeman was a variant on the same basic space frame.
But that aside, my hang up with the Connie is that its a cruiser. A tiny cruiser. By volume, you could fit a Connie refit inside a single Galaxy class nacelle with room to spare. Even an Intrepid class is very nearly three times the volume, even if its roughly the same length. (appearances can be very deceiving)
If a Constitution can function just as well as a cruiser as any of the more modern and larger cruisers, that negates any and all reason for there to have ever been an Excelsior, Ambassador, Galaxy, Sovereign, Odyssey, etc etc. I can't possibly suspend my Trek disbelief enough to accept that a ship a fraction the size can take and give as much of a pounding as ships upwards of 27 times its volume. More for the Odyssey.
You couldn't possibly cram enough structure, shielding, power generation, hull thickness and weaponry in there to make up that massive amount of difference. Any miniaturization you apply to that Connie could be applied to the larger ships in spades.
No, the argument still stands, only seeing a ship once is no ground for dismissal. You are adding other points to the issue and I will be happy to address them. The Saratoga is a modification of the Miranda class, which is a modification of constitution parts.
As for the size and tier issue, that's pretty good, but sto tech has already rendered it moot. The defiant and bug are the smallest escorts in the game, yet they have the most powerful weapons in the game. Not only that, but the nova class fleet variant has 1+ shields and is smaller than a Connie. So for shields and weapons the Connie could easily be engineered to compete, but it's hull should be the lowest of all fed cruisers. The design of its boffs and consoles would have to be interesting, but saying the tech is impossible is just unfair.
Personally I think they should give it a special console or ability that allows it to have a single 180 degree DBB and cite how the phasers key directly into the warp core ala tmp or something. This would be cool because the dbb art design is based off of the Connie refit.
No, the argument still stands, only seeing a ship once is no ground for dismissal. You are adding other points to the issue and I will be happy to address them. The Saratoga is a modification of the Miranda class, which is a modification of constitution parts.
That is a red herring argument. It could just as easily go both ways. We may have never seen another Saratoga type because it was a one off experiment, or a limited run. We may see tons of Mirandas because they are more efficient, or more versatile, or any number of reasons. The bottom line is we never see the Constitution again. One single ship doesn't mean there are dozens more that just happen to never make it on screen in some of the largest ship engagements ever seen in Trek.
The defiant and bug are the smallest escorts in the game, yet they have the most powerful weapons in the game.
You're cherry picking two specialist ships. The Defiant and Bug ships are designed for one purpose and one purpose only - to be flying guns. I've said before in other threads and I'll say again: The Defiant is a flying set of guns with engines and armor glued on, the life support is almost an afterthought. Bashir even comments on how small and ill equipped something as basic and necessary as a sick bay is.
Whereas a cruiser in Trek is a jack of all trades. It does science, it fights, it even does troop transport / colony support / shows the flag, you name it, it does it to some extent. Now in STO specifically, the cruiser is supposedly support and tanking. It doesn't do a lot of damage, its not the best at science stuff, but it does take a beating like no other. (in theory)
Which brings us right back to its size being an issue. It just doesn't have the size to take the body blows an Odyssey or Galaxy can. So you'd just end up with a ship that doesn't do nearly as much damage as an escort, doesn't do science as well as a dedicated science ship, and can't tank nearly as well as it younger siblings.
Beyond that, we're still at the basic issue of CBS said no. Cryptic is not the one to convince, I'm not the one to convince, other players aren't, it CBS. Until they say yes, we can talk about this until the end of time, and it wouldn't make even the slightest bit of difference.
That is a red herring argument. It could just as easily go both ways. We may have never seen another Saratoga type because it was a one off experiment, or a limited run. We may see tons of Mirandas because they are more efficient, or more versatile, or any number of reasons. The bottom line is we never see the Constitution again. One single ship doesn't mean there are dozens more that just happen to never make it on screen in some of the largest ship engagements ever seen in Trek.
:rolleyes: You are the one who utilized the red herring fallacy by adding the element of modification to only seeing a ship once. I pointed that out and then took it further by saying those are just modifications of the design I asserted was still in use. You're tripping over your own points here.
You're cherry picking two specialist ships. The Defiant and Bug ships are designed for one purpose and one purpose only - to be flying guns. I've said before in other threads and I'll say again: The Defiant is a flying set of guns with engines and armor glued on, the life support is almost an afterthought. Bashir even comments on how small and ill equipped something as basic and necessary as a sick bay is.
Whereas a cruiser in Trek is a jack of all trades. It does science, it fights, it even does troop transport / colony support / shows the flag, you name it, it does it to some extent. Now in STO specifically, the cruiser is supposedly support and tanking. It doesn't do a lot of damage, its not the best at science stuff, but it does take a beating like no other. (in theory)
Which brings us right back to its size being an issue. It just doesn't have the size to take the body blows an Odyssey or Galaxy can. So you'd just end up with a ship that doesn't do nearly as much damage as an escort, doesn't do science as well as a dedicated science ship, and can't tank nearly as well as it younger siblings.
Beyond that, we're still at the basic issue of CBS said no. Cryptic is not the one to convince, I'm not the one to convince, other players aren't, it CBS. Until they say yes, we can talk about this until the end of time, and it wouldn't make even the slightest bit of difference.
Being bigger than the bug, defiant, and nova means it could contain whatever stats any one of them has and then some added on top. Tech in sto is completely modular, ships are just shells.
I'm not saying cryptic should give the Connie dual cannons or science abilities, I'm just saying it could have all around tier 5 stats like they do. I'd even agree that the hit points would be bad even for a cruiser, maybe the engineering consoles too, but there are ways to compensate for that while keeping the ship competitive.
The first step to getting any large organizations attention is through public awareness and advocacy, this is not pointless.
:rolleyes: You are the one who utilized the red herring fallacy by adding the element of modification to only seeing a ship once. I pointed that out and then took it further by saying those are just modifications of the design I asserted was still in use. You're tripping over your own points here.
You brought up the Saratoga and Centaur, not me. A red herring argument is a distraction from the main argument, which in this case was the Constitution not showing up pretty much ever again. But you know, Centaur. Or something. Refuting your red herring argument does not a red herring itself make, I just failed to make those particular points in the first refute.
Being bigger than the bug, defiant, and nova means it could contain whatever stats any one of them has and then some added on top. Tech in sto is completely modular, ships are just shells.
So you're agreeing that size does matter? I present Exhibit A: The volume of a Galaxy class is roughly 5,820,983(m^3). Next I present Exhibit B: The volume of a Constitution refit is roughly 211,248(m^3). So whatever you cram into that 'shell' can be done about 27 and a half times over to the Galaxy.
I'm not saying cryptic should give the Connie dual cannons or science abilities, I'm just saying it could have all around tier 5 stats like they do. I'd even agree that the hit points would be bad even for a cruiser, maybe the engineering consoles too, but there are ways to compensate for that while keeping the ship competitive.
So you're saying you don't want it to have an escort weapons package, you don't want it to have a science ship science package, and you don't want it to have a tanking package of a standard cruiser, am I correct? You just described a ship that is sub-par in every category that matters in this game. I can hear the die-hard Connie fans crying foul already.
So what exactly DO you want it to do? Be specific, because your one idea of a dual beam bank that can be yanked off and immediately put on a ship that performs better doesn't lend itself to 'I must use this ship and not be a liability to my team'
The first step to getting any large organizations attention is through public awareness and advocacy, this is not pointless.
People have been making these same arguments for nearly three years now, and very few have bothered to take it up directly with the people that matter: CBS.
Seems like the only way to make TOS fans happy, is to have a TOS game. As in forking STO into the current game and a TOS era game. Take out the 'magic' abilities, gives us full 3D maneuvering... and I won't even care about the content. How about PvP in TOS period ships... perhaps detecting cloaked ships by occlusion or recreating the 'Balance of Terror'. If they wanted content, they could plagiarize the TOS episodes at the rate of once per week (or month) and that would be great.
At least this way, it might be harder for CBS to say no. Every thing's according to canon and it might even attract some new players.
You wouldn't need a 'T5' Connie since all ships would be T1 or T2 anyway.
Yeah, it's a pipe-dream. But I always thought it was a mistake for them to start STO off in 2409.
Yeah, it's a pipe-dream. But I always thought it was a mistake for them to start STO off in 2409.
Oh I agree. Personally I prefer the TOS / TMP era, but it isn't what we got, sadly. What we have is some mismash of everything with a story that's incoherent at times. (Seriously, that last FE series had plot holes big enough to sail a Borg cube through)
I think the 'Lost Era' would have fit perfectly. Plenty of wiggle room for events between the end of Kirk's part in Generations and the start of TNG. We'd still see the old guard at or near its height, with some of the newer stuff starting to edge in. We could see the exploits of the B, maybe the introduction and eventual loss of the C, whatever the aftermath of Kirk's apparent death was, Scotty goes missing, various wars hinted at but never explored.
You brought up the Saratoga and Centaur, not me. A red herring argument is a distraction from the main argument, which in this case was the Constitution not showing up pretty much ever again. But you know, Centaur. Or something. Refuting your red herring argument does not a red herring itself make, I just failed to make those particular points in the first refute.
A red herring fallacy brings up unrelated arguments, I merely questioned if the argument could be applied to very similar cases.
If your argument of singular appearance cannot successfully be applied to other extremely similar occurances like the saratoga and curry class ships it cannot be applied to the constitution class. The ships all share components as you pointed out so the comparison is not a distraction.
If you really want to get into fallacies the argument of "I don't see it so it's never there" is an argument from silence, an argument citing lack of evidence, and thus in a league of BS all on its own.
So you're agreeing that size does matter? I present Exhibit A: The volume of a Galaxy class is roughly 5,820,983(m^3). Next I present Exhibit B: The volume of a Constitution refit is roughly 211,248(m^3). So whatever you cram into that 'shell' can be done about 27 and a half times over to the Galaxy.
You are theoretically correct, but power adages in that scale would make almost all other ships worthless compared to the galaxy and odyssey, even the modern ones. This limiter is in place to make sure gameplay is varried and fun, there is still nothing logical preventing tier 5 tech from being added to the Connie.
People have been making these same arguments for nearly three years now, and very few have bothered to take it up directly with the people that matter: CBS.
We continue to take it up here for two reasons, the words of cryptic will carry much heavier weight than any sporadically sent emails, and this way more people will send those emails.
Not really, the Saratoga was just a modification of an already existing frame. Just like the Lantree and Bozeman was a variant on the same basic space frame.
But that aside, my hang up with the Connie is that its a cruiser. A tiny cruiser. By volume, you could fit a Connie refit inside a single Galaxy class nacelle with room to spare. Even an Intrepid class is very nearly three times the volume, even if its roughly the same length. (appearances can be very deceiving)
If a Constitution can function just as well as a cruiser as any of the more modern and larger cruisers, that negates any and all reason for there to have ever been an Excelsior, Ambassador, Galaxy, Sovereign, Odyssey, etc etc. I can't possibly suspend my Trek disbelief enough to accept that a ship a fraction the size can take and give as much of a pounding as ships upwards of 27 times its volume. More for the Odyssey.
You couldn't possibly cram enough structure, shielding, power generation, hull thickness and weaponry in there to make up that massive amount of difference. Any miniaturization you apply to that Connie could be applied to the larger ships in spades.
This is a piece of logic many like to ignore.
Can't have a honest conversation because of a white knight with power
Seems like the only way to make TOS fans happy, is to have a TOS game. As in forking STO into the current game and a TOS era game. Take out the 'magic' abilities, gives us full 3D maneuvering... and I won't even care about the content. How about PvP in TOS period ships... perhaps detecting cloaked ships by occlusion or recreating the 'Balance of Terror'. If they wanted content, they could plagiarize the TOS episodes at the rate of once per week (or month) and that would be great.
At least this way, it might be harder for CBS to say no. Every thing's according to canon and it might even attract some new players.
You wouldn't need a 'T5' Connie since all ships would be T1 or T2 anyway.
Yeah, it's a pipe-dream. But I always thought it was a mistake for them to start STO off in 2409.
I would love a tmp era sto as well, but I'm happy with the route they chose. This way they can make everyone happy through upgrade able tech and all the history. Now we can all roam the trek universe together and explore new ideas like trek always tries to. It's just sad some fans are not equal, and the new jj fans are not being welcomed in with open arms.
If you really want to get into fallacies the argument of "I don't see it so it's never there" is an argument from silence, an argument citing lack of evidence, and thus in a league of BS all on its own.
There's more to back it up than just not seeing it, I point to three key things.
1: We know the Ent-A was retired, and instead of being replaced with another far less resource and crew intensive Connie, she was replaced with the newer and larger Excelsior class. If the Connie was just as effective, why was another one not knocked out for the 1701-B?
2: We know from TOS that there are 'only 12 like her in the fleet' Meaning there were only 12 Constitution classes built. Sure I suppose they could have built more later, but between the newer Excelsior, and cheaper Miranda, why would they?
3: Of those 12 original ships, we know the 1701 was destroyed, the Intrepid was destroyed, the Constellation was destroyed, the 1701-A was heavily damaged and retired, with the possibility of the A being a renamed Yorktown to start with (Roddenberry hinted at this), the one that was destroyed at Wolf 359, and at least one as a museum ship. That's 6, possibly 7 of them gone right off that bat. That doesn't even consider other sources of attrition for the 74 years between the events of Undiscovered Country and Wolf 359 for the 5 or 6 unaccounted for.
You are theoretically correct, but power adages in that scale would make almost all other ships worthless compared to the galaxy and odyssey, even the modern ones. This limiter is in place to make sure gameplay is varried and fun, there is still nothing logical preventing tier 5 tech from being added to the Connie.
The difference here is I'm comparing apples to apples, cruiser to cruiser. Most of the ideas that get tossed about basically boils down to wanting a teeny tiny cruiser to be the equal of the big mamajammas.
I'm not wholly opposed to a Connie being at end game, I just press people hard to come up with something that isn't just there because 'handwavium Q did it' reasons. The ships in this game are already enough of a mess without adding to the problem.
Why not something like a 'destroyer escort'? Something with a weapons package that makes it tricky to handle for any ship in its weight class, but nimble and fast enough to outrun anything it can't outfight. That sounds more Kirk than 'big cruiser smash!'
Even then, I really don't even like my own idea. Its still a ship that doesn't really fill a needed, or even useful role. I can't think of anything the Connie can do that doesn't step on something's toes. Its not a warship, its not really a science ship, and its too small to compete with the other, more massive cruisers.
I am quite surprised that noone has thought of the obvious way to get a Tier 5 connie in the game. Remember the episode In the Mirror Darkly and how the NX Enterprise encountered the futuristic defiant. The Tholians We already have not only future time ships but MU Ships so who's to say that the Tholians haven't dabbled in time travel and actually brought retro ships to the future. Also we are at war so that means they could be using older ships to replace holes in the defense of the federation the Klingons themselves could have something similar with older birds of preys and other ships.
"Critics who say that the optimistic utopia Star Trek depicted is now outmoded forget the cultural context that gave birth to it: Star Trek was not a manifestation of optimism when optimism was easy. Star Trek declared a hope for a future that nobody stuck in the present could believe in. For all our struggles today, we haven’t outgrown the need for stories like Star Trek. We need tales of optimism, of heroes, of courage and goodness now as much as we’ve ever needed them." -Thomas Marrone
Hravik*
Your new querries aren't too difficult either. Il start by saying that I never claimed the Connie was as effective as the excelsior class.
The constitution refit flag ship was replaced by the excelsior class because of a net increase in functional demands required by star fleet. Their territory was exploding, enemy territory was increasing, conflict with old enemies was increasing while new enemies were being discovered, and scientific phenomena had already been established as far beyond the current technological capability of understanding.
To deal with this on all fronts efficiently star fleet needed bigger and better ships.
The flag ship must be a role model in every way for the fleet, it is the physical manifestation of all the organizations goals and capabilities that can be singularly combined. Exploration, crisis management, and transportation.
When the excelsior class was rolled out and mainlined, it's superiority in these fields demanded it take the throne of flag ship. And as every other documented case of undone dominance in star fleet, the old flag ship class becomes a work horse, a silent holder of the flame that is the old status quo, a dark knight. Production of these ships are maintained due to the demands of a growing structure combined with the limitations of new material and facilities. Secrecy and subterfuge also put a damper on these new innovations. The increasing demands in all fields tax lesser equipped ships like the Miranda class more than they do the constitution class, so an industrial entity that can produce both in great numbers chooses the superior ship for longer production runs. Modifications can be made to lesson crew requirements if the federations bulging mass cannot accommodate them.
As for the twelve ships thing, it's standard star fleet protocol to mass produce ships far beyond such numbers.
I'm pumped we essentially agree there should be a tier 5 Connie, making interesting adjustments to cruiser standards will be a trend every type of ship could benefit from, lord knows the armitage is widely adored, myself included.
Let me start off here by saying I never said I thought there should be a T5 Connie, I still think there's just no need for it. I'd just rather not see it shoehorned into something that makes no sense if it does happen, and I'm not even convinced it will.
Secondly, you're making a LOT of assumptions. On the one hand, we have a distinct lack of Connies showing up on screen. On the other hand we have a direct quote from Kirk himself saying there are only 12 in the fleet, with absolutely no supporting evidence that more were built, but strong evidence of the ones we know about for sure seeing at least a 50% loss rate. Again I point out that Picard mentions there is one in the fleet museum while talking to a depressed Scotty. If there were any still in service, surely he would have mentioned it to cheer Scotty up?
Given what we see in DS9, we know there are scores of Mirandas, lots of Excelsiors, and even variants of both ships. Surely if production of the Constitution continued full steam ahead as you suggest we'd see more than just one as wreckage years before. They go on about how many ships are lost, shipyards destroyed, yet hide nor hair of a Connie. As a patrol craft, the Miranda sports basically the same phaser and torpedo complement that the Connie does, and any full on cruiser duties are better filled by the Excelsior.
I would suspect that they may have been kept on for a time, maybe even decades, but through loss and retirement were phased out. Is that an assumption? Yes, but an assumption that's supported by on screen evidence.
Well as long as you're not against a tier 5 Connie that's all I can really ask for.
Other than that your pretty much just repeating the same stuff. Despite the fact that we see many ships in ds9, it's still a small portion of the overall fleet composition. You are pointing out a lack of evidence on the subject, not supporting your claims. The one ship at wolf 359 says far more by comparison.
The star fleet mass produces everything should be pretty obvious, if you really want to stick to canon I could be a real stickler and claim the connie was the only class of ship in tos and they would need more than twelve. The word fleet could refer to a task force as well, there's still lots of wiggle room there.
When you take into account licensing costs, fan outcry, model availability/status, and cgi budget, it should be pretty apparent why we see the ships we see so often. One final bit on ds9, in such an extreme war, you would absolutely have to have as many of your best ships on the front line as possible, the lowest performing exploratory vessel would probably get the most continued service in that range of cruiser duties.
And since you brought up the museum Picard bit again, Picard is not obligated to know what all the star fleet is composed of. Still he captained the star gazer, if anything he placed the bridge design with the last completely removed era of tech or knew exactly what scotty wanted. The refit was an almost completely different beast.
Oh and at no time during pre sovereign pre defiant eras would the Miranda best the Connie in anything other than rear facing fire power. The Miranda warp core was tiny as hell, and we know that thanks to wrath of khan, add in a giant deflector and the superior cruiser frame and you have a flat out better ship, all soft canon supports this notion.
When the need is up for bigger and better you phase out smaller and weaker first, basic rules of supply and demand, supported by the upwards trend of everything we see and hear about the federation.
Again, wild guesses and supposition. Everything I've said in this debate so far I can go to an episode, or a movie, and cite a source.
At no point did I claim that the Connie was the only ship in TOS. Kirk said '12 like her in the fleet' This indirectly implies there are plenty of ships, but directly says there are only 12 Constitutions. Some guesses there, yes, but far less than you have to make to support your claims.
Starfleet does not 'mass produce everything.' We can see they mass produced some things, but on screen evidence says that the Connie was not among those things. That's just wishful thinking on your part. The burden of proof is on you to show where they did. I can point to an exact number from a reliable source (Kirk), where's yours?
Picard may not know the exact details of everything that goes on in Starfleet, but I'm pretty sure he knew exactly who Scotty was, and what his service record was. Anything less would be sloppy and out of character for Picard. He certainly knew exactly who Kirk was immediately in Generations.
I won't dispute that the warp core was smaller, but I do have to ask...how do we know that from TWoK? At what point do they discuss warp core sizes? Funny that I don't remember that particular line. I also at no point said that the Miranda was a superior overall ship, just that it basically has the same fire power. All variants of the Miranda have at minimum 14 phaser emitters, 12 being in 6 dual banks on the main hull, and two single emitters aft. The Reliant-type has two more in the rollbar making the total 16, plus four photon launchers, 2 aft 2 forward. The Constitution refit had 6 dual emitter banks on the saucer, 2 single emitter aft banks are above the shuttlebay and four midship single emitter banks are located on the ventral surface of the engineering hull, two forward torpedoes and none aft. Total 16/4 to 18/2. Like I said, basically the same firepower.
Again, wild guesses and supposition. Everything I've said in this debate so far I can go to an episode, or a movie, and cite a source.
Fact: there is a wrecked Connie in wolf 359 scenes.
Fact: I checked the relics scene on YouTube, Picard immediately pegs the program for a constitution class, no refit additures, his confidence belies an intimate knowledge, but this is all unimportant because:
Fact: We know Connie refits could be decomissioned without ending the whole run, case in point trying to decom the original enterprise while the Yorktown was still in service as seen in star trek 4.
Fact: Museums have contempory and recent displays all the time.
Fact: saying that we never see tons of Connie's makes them a dead ship line is a logical fallacy, you are hurting your cause.
Fact: federation space was getting bigger, enemies were becoming more powerful, scientific facilities were incapable of understanding many phenomena. These are all things the constitution class was better at handling compared to the Miranda, cruiser frames are cruiser frames throughout history because they are the best, and are given flagship roles as a result. You see the reliants warp core in twok, and in tmp you learn that phasers are keyed into the warp core, giving the enterprise much more powerful weapons, the Miranda is only better at fighting a retreating photon battle.
Fact summary/comparison:
Your arguments are torn apart by facts, not supported by them. The two actual facts you present of Picards quote and tos ship numbers never make a direct statement towards or against continued production, they just exist in some vague relation to the idea. The Connie at wolf 359 is undeniable, direct information regarding the issue, you just drone it out while going lalalalalala 'probabilities'.
Logical conjecture: making excelsiors and gradually increasing the size of star fleets ships shows that the federation needed more bigger ships, why make more Miranda's instead of constitutions then, why decommission more Miranda's than Connie's?
Logical conjecture: every starship we know to not fill a niche role is mass produced, we see tons of galaxies, excelsiors, Miranda's, nebulas, and FC era ships, and several ambassadors. If the Klingons can field three constitution equivalent ktinga class vessels to investigate a scientific phenomena in tmp, the federation would definitely need many of their own Connie's as a potential answer to such a threat.
Conjecture summary/comparison: I am looking at the over all trends of star fleet ship composition while you are just looking at snippets of ships shown on a budget.
Fact: there is a wrecked Connie in wolf 359 scenes.
Which can easily be explained any number of other different ways. Last surviving unit, training ship, museum ship quickly manned and thrown into action. Once again, a single ship does not indicate some vast fleet of Connies that we just never see. We also see Mirandas there too, and Nebulas, and an Ambassador, all of which we see again.
Fact: We know Connie refits could be decomissioned without ending the whole run, case in point trying to decom the original enterprise while the Yorktown was still in service as seen in star trek 4.
So what? The original Enterprise was old at this point, at minimum 40 years old, and heavily damaged on top of that. Remember, Scott himself pretty much said the power systems were shot and 'bypassed like a Christmas tree' Old and heavily damaged? Well hey, look at that, let's just rename this freshly refit ship to make Kirk happy.
They do this kind of thing in the US and other Navies all the time. Just because they keep some in service while retiring others of the same class does not automatically prove they are still building new ones. Just look at the Ticonderoga class missile cruisers. 27 were built, 22 still active, 5 retired, but they sure as heck aren't building more.
Fact: Museums have contempory and recent displays all the time.
So now you're claiming TOS era Constitutions were still in service and not refits? That isn't what you claimed before, now is it? Contemporary would have to mean that that exact configuration was still in use. Thought that refit thing was a whole different animal?
Fact: saying that we never see tons of Connie's makes them a dead ship line is a logical fallacy, you are hurting your cause.
We never do see them AND we know a fixed number of how many existed to start with, with no actual evidence of more being built, plus a knowledge of how many of those were lost. Minimum 7 lost, almost forgot about the Defiant (NCC-1764) being lost to the Tholians/Mirror Universe.
Fact: federation space was getting bigger, enemies were becoming more powerful, scientific facilities were incapable of understanding many phenomena. These are all things the constitution class was better at handling compared to the Miranda
How do you know that for sure? As I recall, the first time we see a Miranda, its doing what? Oh that's right, scientific surveys for the Genesis project.
You see the reliants warp core in twok, and in tmp you learn that phasers are keyed into the warp core, giving the enterprise much more powerful weapons, the Miranda is only better at fighting a retreating photon battle.
You hurt your own argument here. The only shot we see of the Reliant's warp core is a reuse of the same exact set used to depict the Enterprise's warp core. So unless you want to claim they use the same warp core...
The two actual facts you present of Picards quote and tos ship numbers never make a direct statement towards or against continued production, they just exist in some vague relation to the idea.
But combine that with the number of times we see them ever again outside of Wolf 359, which is precisely zero...
The Connie at wolf 359 is undeniable, direct information regarding the issue, you just drone it out while going lalalalalala 'probabilities'.
And you drone it out with 'well I think this should have happened, I can't prove it in any way, but hey I said so' So far you've given very little or no cite-able 'direct information' to support your claims.
Logical conjecture: making excelsiors and gradually increasing the size of star fleets ships shows that the federation needed more bigger ships, why make more Miranda's instead of constitutions then, why decommission more Miranda's than Connie's?
Conjecture, given nearly equal firepower, the less complex design, less resources to build, the obvious flexibility of the frame given how many variants of it we see. We also see several variants of the Nebula, maybe there's something about being able to easily change out that mission pod up top that makes this layout more versatile than the standard cruiser.
So they made brand spanking new ships, and even had the Millennium Falcon in First Contact, but no Constitution to be had, not even as wreckage or background shots this time. Not to mention the Frankenstein fleet in the Dominion war, where they had to go out of their way to make some god awful ugly physical models to fill out the shots, but not even once with the already built models of a Connie.
If the Klingons can field three constitution equivalent ktinga class vessels to investigate a scientific phenomena in tmp, the federation would definitely need many of their own Connie's as a potential answer to such a threat.
More unsupported speculations. This would only work if the Constitution was the only class of starship during that era, and we know that not to be true.
Conjecture summary/comparison: I am looking at the over all trends of star fleet ship composition while you are just looking at snippets of ships shown on a budget.
I'm looking at empirical evidence, you're looking to support your cause no matter how much stuff you have to make up. After all, as I mentioned before, they went out of their way to make some ugly, ugly kitbashes. If budget was the only concern they would have trotted out models already built...and they did, just not the Constitution.
And you know what, you almost got your wish of actually being able to point to a Constitution in TNG. In S01E09 The Battle, the original script called for the Stargazer to be a Connie, and even had Geordi's line already recorded calling it a Constitution. But you know what? They decided it was a bad idea, and went out of their way to create a new filming model and overdub the line with Constellation. So you can keep pointing to budget issues all day long, and I can point to instances where they avoided using a Connie intentionally.
So what? The original Enterprise was old at this point, at minimum 40 years old, and heavily damaged on top of that. Remember, Scott himself pretty much said the power systems were shot and 'bypassed like a Christmas tree' Old and heavily damaged? Well hey, look at that, let's just rename this freshly refit ship to make Kirk happy.
You just tried to rebuke a point by adding reasons to why it could happen. Unless you can provide evidence that says ships don't get recalled together it remains fact. It's also nice of you to point out that they were still actively refitting Connie's at the time, more evidence that the ship had staying power in the fleet.
So now you're claiming TOS era Constitutions were still in service and not refits? That isn't what you claimed before, now is it? Thought that refit thing was a whole different animal?
Now you are putting words in my mouth, but it's certainly a possibility if the yorktown had just then been refit.
We never do see them AND we know a fixed number of how many existed to start with, plus a knowledge of how many of those were lost. Minimum 7 lost, almost forgot about the Defiant (NCC-1764) being lost to the Tholians/Mirror Universe.
If you can provide any real evidence other than a fallacy of silence about how production continued after this number was given il admit I was wrong about the subject. Until then the number means absolutely nothing.
How do you know that for sure? As I recall, the first time we see a Miranda, its doing what? Oh that's right, scientific surveys for the Genesis project.
Wow, that really convinced me the Miranda is a superior science vessel. That was a lie, the constitution class was a dedicated explorer, and it sported a large forward facing deflector, givining it a vast array of scientific abilities the Miranda lacked.
You hurt your own argument here. The only shot we see of the Reliant's warp core is a reuse of the same exact set used to depict the Enterprise's warp core. So unless you want to claim they use the same warp core...
Sure why not, giving them the same style of warp core only helps my point. The connies warp core goes through the neck to the saucer, there's no way a smaller version of the same warp core could outperform the Connie's. That's a cool bit of trivia though.
And you know what, you almost got your wish of actually being able to point to a Constitution in TNG. In S01E09 The Battle, the original script called for the Stargazer to be a Connie, and even had Geordi's line already recorded calling it a Constitution. But you know what? They decided it was a bad idea, and went out of their way to create a new filming model and overdub the line with Constellation. So you can keep pointing to budget issues all day long, and I can point to instances where they avoided using a Connie intentionally.
And I can point out that they wanted to use a Connie just like you did because it was obviously still in service, can you cite the exact reasons why they didn't use it? A million internet dollars says the issue wasn't the ships comissionary status, if it was why would they make a ship that was so similar?
(the wolf 359 Connie)
Which can easily be explained any number of other different ways. Last surviving unit, training ship, museum ship quickly manned and thrown into action. Once again, a single ship does not indicate some vast fleet of Connies that we just never see. We also see Mirandas there too, and Nebulas, and an Ambassador, all of which we see again.
Last surviving unit and training ship would mean she was still in service. Being in a museum does not exclusively mean the ship was discontinued either, but I will entertain the notion for hilarities sake.
Lets say hollywood decided to make a movie about the academy museum theory because that's totally the type of thing Hollywood would love.
Cadets, this is an emergency announcement, everyone get to the shuttle bays for deployment in battle on a mothballed ship, don't worry, we have thirty nine other standard ships on their way to almost certainly handle this meager threat only worth forty ships. This will be considered a project for your collective portfolios due in December, exam the experience and resolve yourself with intent to improve in lacking proficiencies. But that's all later, make haste!
On board the shuttles, the students realize they are being stationed on a Connie, some nerd says they should take the excelsior class five lanes over, everyone makes fun of him and says it will build character.
Finally on the bridge, acting ensign potato is made acting commander acting ensign, and told to obtain whatever he needs for launch from utopia yards. Before he can do anything comm signals flood everyone's newly received comm badges. Nothing works except for the replicators, doors, toilets, and educational programs.
It turns out every critical system is missing components that were given to other ships or removed to prevent stealing secrets, by both enemies and would be terrorists. Star fleet shuttles are already on the way though, and everyone quickly gets to work on installations.
"Acting commander acting ensign potato, all the new components are installed and heated up, ready to warp on command." But before any action can be made, star fleet gets on the line, everyone there is getting honorary red squad status, the crew claps. The good spirits are quickly dampened when they realize they need to update the software because no one really gets those old console controls. Acting commander acting ensign potato wipes a bead of sweat of his brow, "it's a good thing we aren't using old hardware and old software too, mixing them will fix everything".
An hour later final double checks are completed and the uss bright futures goes to warp 8, the engineer can't handle power calculations for warp 9. On the way there key acting ensigns go over the Borg intel. The conn officer starts to shake uncontrollably, he says they don't stand a chance and tries to turn the ship around. "Here, take these barely legal drugs I just replicated, they will make you feel better" says potato. Acting ensign acting conn officer celery agrees and is soon lost in supplementary flight maneuver instructions.
By the time they get there the Borg are long gone, and they accidentally trigger the self destruct sequence while learning how it functions. It's true they use the st 3 sfs model for it and everything.
I'll point out that, once more you have wild, unsupported claims. Just give me one example, one single solitary shred of support that Constitutions were still in service. Anything? Something? No? Your arguments are built on a house of cards that can easily be dismissed point for point unless you have some evidence to back it up.
The only time we see one is as wreckage, in a place that can easily be explained as a desperate move.
Everything points to Constitutions just not being in service. We don't see them, don't hear about them, and have no evidence whatsoever that they were produced in the large numbers you suggest.
1st. i have the TOS era STAR FLEET TECHNICAL MANUAL and it showes all the names of constitution's built and there was far more than the original 12.
2nd. this thread was supposed to be about a t5 connie, not how implausible it was for story, after all the excelsior its a 120+ yr old design that got shot to hell more than once in the dominion war(Lakota was one exception that revived special upgrades it would have been too costly to upgrade all thats why new designs are made there are real world exampls of this) if it can be kept at t3,t5 retro AND a fleet version(only to keep the fans happy) we can get a t5 connie or a holo
3. ITS A GAME beliveabilaty will always be sacrificed for gameplay thats why 50%+ captains are vice admiral and beam into borg infested areas and people want to cry cannon?
Yep, most likely full of cadets on a training exercise, too.
I've always thought of that Connie as a ship that was kept functional for use as hands on starship operations training that got thrown at the cube in a last ditch act of desperation.
Sorry to completley ignore that huge argument you both just had (I'll go back and read over it), but you have just sort of come up with the single most legitimate excuse for putting a T5 Connie in the game.
Perhaps, even in the 25th Century, the Constitution makes an excellent ship for cadet training - i.e. role it inherited during the 2280s. Whilst other modern ships are off exploring the galaxy, Connies and reproduction Connies with better abilities provide a vital function of being active postings for Midshipmen and cadets.
That seems like the sort of ship that an Admiral - like Admiral Kirk in The Wrath of Khan - would command, imparting knowledge and wisdom to the fresh new officers. Fleet Captain Pike also left the Enterprise to command a Class-J Training Ship - so there's a history of flag officers becoming senior instructors.
Perhaps Cryptic could introduce the T5 Connie as a reward for completing a chain of assignments at the Academy, or scoring highly in Kobyashi Maru scenarios? :P
Why would there be a museum ship of a class still in active service?
And again - it doesn't have to be in active service, it can be in serving AS a museum ship. I.e. filling a ceremonial role for diplomatic missions, or serving as an honourary flagship for senior Admirals. It really doesn't matter, as long as there's an ATTEMPT at a excuse.
STO is not a chronologically, canonically or continuital conscious game. It is a game that is doing a, frankly, bloody good job of mixing every series into one game - there are elements of every period, every aesthetic style, every series, every movie. And they blend very well together.
I don't think a T5 TOS-era ship would be so out of place in that universe.
Beyond that, we're still at the basic issue of CBS said no. Cryptic is not the one to convince, I'm not the one to convince, other players aren't, it CBS. Until they say yes, we can talk about this until the end of time, and it wouldn't make even the slightest bit of difference.
Well how else are we supposed to try and make a difference, apart from by generating discussion to show that there's interest?
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At T2...where it's undergone 164 years of refits and retrofits to still be around.
C'mon, if somebody wanted to be tricky and get an endgame Connie in the game - it wouldn't be as a "T5" ship. It wouldn't be there with the other RA/VA ships.
No, the enterprising advocate would suggest it as a Fleet T5. After all, Fleet vessels are built by the individual fleets at their starbases. They're not something being built by Starfleet or the Federation. Because neither Starfleet nor the Federation would be building RA/VA versions of the ship...
...kind of like, you know - the other Fleet ships that neither Starfleet nor the Federation would be building at the RA/VA level. Yet, individual fleets are building them at their starbases.
Cryptic created that problem...players wanting an endgame Connie should exploit it.
They shouldn't expect that either Starfleet or the Federation would be building them at a RA/VA level...nor have any they've refit to that level...what individual fleets build though, well - that's a different story, right?
Then show me another instance where we ever see a confirmed Connie outside of time travel. Where in the vast fleets during the Dominion War do we ever see one?
Even Picard later confirms that there's a Constitution class as a museum ship in S6E4 Relics of TNG. Why would there be a museum ship of a class still in active service? Especially after all the trouble they were having rebuilding the fleet after Wolf 359. If the class was still viable, why was it not in active service?
The fleet size arguments for the Connie are even worse than they are for the Ambassador. But again, as has been pointed out consistently - Cryptic's decisions to include or exclude certain ships has nothing to do with logic. They know there would be money in it - do you not think that if they could do it that they would not do it? They've made other T2 vessels available at T5 via the Fleet system... if they could Fleet Connie, they would. Much like they were finally able to get the Ambassador in the game at endgame (which makes no sense either)...
...it's about fighting the right fight, etc, etc, etc.
Just because there is a tos era Connie in a museum does not mean the refits were discontinued. Art museums often have modern works inside of them, history museums have areas dedicated to rare animals.
More importantly, just seeing a ship once does not automatically make it a fluke. We only see the Saratoga, centaur, and many other ships once, but no one ever argues they have been recalled.
I seem to have misread the intentions of your post, I thought you were another hater trolling and I apologize. I completely agree with your sentiments, my signature is a permanent plea for fleet grade refit goodness.
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There's something weird about the situation with the Connie.
Its not that Cryptic doesn't want to, we know they'll do anything for money at this point. For some reason CBS is putting the kibosh on an end game Connie. According to Gecko in one of his interviews, it was an uphill battle to include it in game at all, at any level. Yet we still have the D'kir at T5 from the jump, makes no sense. There are still a few that swears its all Cryptic's fault somehow, or the devs just hate the Connie, but that just doesn't wash. Because you know...money.
I can make a few guesses as to why, but what the truth is they've never said.
We see the Centaur class three times actually.
My mistake, the argument still stands.
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Not really, the Saratoga was just a modification of an already existing frame. Just like the Lantree and Bozeman was a variant on the same basic space frame.
But that aside, my hang up with the Connie is that its a cruiser. A tiny cruiser. By volume, you could fit a Connie refit inside a single Galaxy class nacelle with room to spare. Even an Intrepid class is very nearly three times the volume, even if its roughly the same length. (appearances can be very deceiving)
If a Constitution can function just as well as a cruiser as any of the more modern and larger cruisers, that negates any and all reason for there to have ever been an Excelsior, Ambassador, Galaxy, Sovereign, Odyssey, etc etc. I can't possibly suspend my Trek disbelief enough to accept that a ship a fraction the size can take and give as much of a pounding as ships upwards of 27 times its volume. More for the Odyssey.
You couldn't possibly cram enough structure, shielding, power generation, hull thickness and weaponry in there to make up that massive amount of difference. Any miniaturization you apply to that Connie could be applied to the larger ships in spades.
Now don't get us wrong I like TOS but I'm not really fussed on if they do include a connie or any ship in the game as am game does not have to be canon. But I can understand why people want it and can imagine that it will make PWE a lot of money if they can pressurise CBS in giving them the rights to have a t5 version in game.
Vice Admiral Volmack ISS Thundermole
Brigadier General Jokag IKS Gorkan
Centurion Kares RRW Tomalak
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
No, the argument still stands, only seeing a ship once is no ground for dismissal. You are adding other points to the issue and I will be happy to address them. The Saratoga is a modification of the Miranda class, which is a modification of constitution parts.
As for the size and tier issue, that's pretty good, but sto tech has already rendered it moot. The defiant and bug are the smallest escorts in the game, yet they have the most powerful weapons in the game. Not only that, but the nova class fleet variant has 1+ shields and is smaller than a Connie. So for shields and weapons the Connie could easily be engineered to compete, but it's hull should be the lowest of all fed cruisers. The design of its boffs and consoles would have to be interesting, but saying the tech is impossible is just unfair.
Personally I think they should give it a special console or ability that allows it to have a single 180 degree DBB and cite how the phasers key directly into the warp core ala tmp or something. This would be cool because the dbb art design is based off of the Connie refit.
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That is a red herring argument. It could just as easily go both ways. We may have never seen another Saratoga type because it was a one off experiment, or a limited run. We may see tons of Mirandas because they are more efficient, or more versatile, or any number of reasons. The bottom line is we never see the Constitution again. One single ship doesn't mean there are dozens more that just happen to never make it on screen in some of the largest ship engagements ever seen in Trek.
You're cherry picking two specialist ships. The Defiant and Bug ships are designed for one purpose and one purpose only - to be flying guns. I've said before in other threads and I'll say again: The Defiant is a flying set of guns with engines and armor glued on, the life support is almost an afterthought. Bashir even comments on how small and ill equipped something as basic and necessary as a sick bay is.
Whereas a cruiser in Trek is a jack of all trades. It does science, it fights, it even does troop transport / colony support / shows the flag, you name it, it does it to some extent. Now in STO specifically, the cruiser is supposedly support and tanking. It doesn't do a lot of damage, its not the best at science stuff, but it does take a beating like no other. (in theory)
Which brings us right back to its size being an issue. It just doesn't have the size to take the body blows an Odyssey or Galaxy can. So you'd just end up with a ship that doesn't do nearly as much damage as an escort, doesn't do science as well as a dedicated science ship, and can't tank nearly as well as it younger siblings.
Beyond that, we're still at the basic issue of CBS said no. Cryptic is not the one to convince, I'm not the one to convince, other players aren't, it CBS. Until they say yes, we can talk about this until the end of time, and it wouldn't make even the slightest bit of difference.
:rolleyes: You are the one who utilized the red herring fallacy by adding the element of modification to only seeing a ship once. I pointed that out and then took it further by saying those are just modifications of the design I asserted was still in use. You're tripping over your own points here.
Being bigger than the bug, defiant, and nova means it could contain whatever stats any one of them has and then some added on top. Tech in sto is completely modular, ships are just shells.
I'm not saying cryptic should give the Connie dual cannons or science abilities, I'm just saying it could have all around tier 5 stats like they do. I'd even agree that the hit points would be bad even for a cruiser, maybe the engineering consoles too, but there are ways to compensate for that while keeping the ship competitive.
The first step to getting any large organizations attention is through public awareness and advocacy, this is not pointless.
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You brought up the Saratoga and Centaur, not me. A red herring argument is a distraction from the main argument, which in this case was the Constitution not showing up pretty much ever again. But you know, Centaur. Or something. Refuting your red herring argument does not a red herring itself make, I just failed to make those particular points in the first refute.
So you're agreeing that size does matter? I present Exhibit A: The volume of a Galaxy class is roughly 5,820,983(m^3). Next I present Exhibit B: The volume of a Constitution refit is roughly 211,248(m^3). So whatever you cram into that 'shell' can be done about 27 and a half times over to the Galaxy.
So you're saying you don't want it to have an escort weapons package, you don't want it to have a science ship science package, and you don't want it to have a tanking package of a standard cruiser, am I correct? You just described a ship that is sub-par in every category that matters in this game. I can hear the die-hard Connie fans crying foul already.
So what exactly DO you want it to do? Be specific, because your one idea of a dual beam bank that can be yanked off and immediately put on a ship that performs better doesn't lend itself to 'I must use this ship and not be a liability to my team'
People have been making these same arguments for nearly three years now, and very few have bothered to take it up directly with the people that matter: CBS.
At least this way, it might be harder for CBS to say no. Every thing's according to canon and it might even attract some new players.
You wouldn't need a 'T5' Connie since all ships would be T1 or T2 anyway.
Yeah, it's a pipe-dream. But I always thought it was a mistake for them to start STO off in 2409.
Oh I agree. Personally I prefer the TOS / TMP era, but it isn't what we got, sadly. What we have is some mismash of everything with a story that's incoherent at times. (Seriously, that last FE series had plot holes big enough to sail a Borg cube through)
I think the 'Lost Era' would have fit perfectly. Plenty of wiggle room for events between the end of Kirk's part in Generations and the start of TNG. We'd still see the old guard at or near its height, with some of the newer stuff starting to edge in. We could see the exploits of the B, maybe the introduction and eventual loss of the C, whatever the aftermath of Kirk's apparent death was, Scotty goes missing, various wars hinted at but never explored.
Coulda woulda shoulda and all that.
A red herring fallacy brings up unrelated arguments, I merely questioned if the argument could be applied to very similar cases.
If your argument of singular appearance cannot successfully be applied to other extremely similar occurances like the saratoga and curry class ships it cannot be applied to the constitution class. The ships all share components as you pointed out so the comparison is not a distraction.
If you really want to get into fallacies the argument of "I don't see it so it's never there" is an argument from silence, an argument citing lack of evidence, and thus in a league of BS all on its own.
You are theoretically correct, but power adages in that scale would make almost all other ships worthless compared to the galaxy and odyssey, even the modern ones. This limiter is in place to make sure gameplay is varried and fun, there is still nothing logical preventing tier 5 tech from being added to the Connie.
We continue to take it up here for two reasons, the words of cryptic will carry much heavier weight than any sporadically sent emails, and this way more people will send those emails.
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This is a piece of logic many like to ignore.
I would love a tmp era sto as well, but I'm happy with the route they chose. This way they can make everyone happy through upgrade able tech and all the history. Now we can all roam the trek universe together and explore new ideas like trek always tries to. It's just sad some fans are not equal, and the new jj fans are not being welcomed in with open arms.
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There's more to back it up than just not seeing it, I point to three key things.
1: We know the Ent-A was retired, and instead of being replaced with another far less resource and crew intensive Connie, she was replaced with the newer and larger Excelsior class. If the Connie was just as effective, why was another one not knocked out for the 1701-B?
2: We know from TOS that there are 'only 12 like her in the fleet' Meaning there were only 12 Constitution classes built. Sure I suppose they could have built more later, but between the newer Excelsior, and cheaper Miranda, why would they?
3: Of those 12 original ships, we know the 1701 was destroyed, the Intrepid was destroyed, the Constellation was destroyed, the 1701-A was heavily damaged and retired, with the possibility of the A being a renamed Yorktown to start with (Roddenberry hinted at this), the one that was destroyed at Wolf 359, and at least one as a museum ship. That's 6, possibly 7 of them gone right off that bat. That doesn't even consider other sources of attrition for the 74 years between the events of Undiscovered Country and Wolf 359 for the 5 or 6 unaccounted for.
The difference here is I'm comparing apples to apples, cruiser to cruiser. Most of the ideas that get tossed about basically boils down to wanting a teeny tiny cruiser to be the equal of the big mamajammas.
I'm not wholly opposed to a Connie being at end game, I just press people hard to come up with something that isn't just there because 'handwavium Q did it' reasons. The ships in this game are already enough of a mess without adding to the problem.
Why not something like a 'destroyer escort'? Something with a weapons package that makes it tricky to handle for any ship in its weight class, but nimble and fast enough to outrun anything it can't outfight. That sounds more Kirk than 'big cruiser smash!'
Even then, I really don't even like my own idea. Its still a ship that doesn't really fill a needed, or even useful role. I can't think of anything the Connie can do that doesn't step on something's toes. Its not a warship, its not really a science ship, and its too small to compete with the other, more massive cruisers.
That doesn't resolve the T5 issue.
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Your new querries aren't too difficult either. Il start by saying that I never claimed the Connie was as effective as the excelsior class.
The constitution refit flag ship was replaced by the excelsior class because of a net increase in functional demands required by star fleet. Their territory was exploding, enemy territory was increasing, conflict with old enemies was increasing while new enemies were being discovered, and scientific phenomena had already been established as far beyond the current technological capability of understanding.
To deal with this on all fronts efficiently star fleet needed bigger and better ships.
The flag ship must be a role model in every way for the fleet, it is the physical manifestation of all the organizations goals and capabilities that can be singularly combined. Exploration, crisis management, and transportation.
When the excelsior class was rolled out and mainlined, it's superiority in these fields demanded it take the throne of flag ship. And as every other documented case of undone dominance in star fleet, the old flag ship class becomes a work horse, a silent holder of the flame that is the old status quo, a dark knight. Production of these ships are maintained due to the demands of a growing structure combined with the limitations of new material and facilities. Secrecy and subterfuge also put a damper on these new innovations. The increasing demands in all fields tax lesser equipped ships like the Miranda class more than they do the constitution class, so an industrial entity that can produce both in great numbers chooses the superior ship for longer production runs. Modifications can be made to lesson crew requirements if the federations bulging mass cannot accommodate them.
As for the twelve ships thing, it's standard star fleet protocol to mass produce ships far beyond such numbers.
I'm pumped we essentially agree there should be a tier 5 Connie, making interesting adjustments to cruiser standards will be a trend every type of ship could benefit from, lord knows the armitage is widely adored, myself included.
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Secondly, you're making a LOT of assumptions. On the one hand, we have a distinct lack of Connies showing up on screen. On the other hand we have a direct quote from Kirk himself saying there are only 12 in the fleet, with absolutely no supporting evidence that more were built, but strong evidence of the ones we know about for sure seeing at least a 50% loss rate. Again I point out that Picard mentions there is one in the fleet museum while talking to a depressed Scotty. If there were any still in service, surely he would have mentioned it to cheer Scotty up?
Given what we see in DS9, we know there are scores of Mirandas, lots of Excelsiors, and even variants of both ships. Surely if production of the Constitution continued full steam ahead as you suggest we'd see more than just one as wreckage years before. They go on about how many ships are lost, shipyards destroyed, yet hide nor hair of a Connie. As a patrol craft, the Miranda sports basically the same phaser and torpedo complement that the Connie does, and any full on cruiser duties are better filled by the Excelsior.
I would suspect that they may have been kept on for a time, maybe even decades, but through loss and retirement were phased out. Is that an assumption? Yes, but an assumption that's supported by on screen evidence.
Other than that your pretty much just repeating the same stuff. Despite the fact that we see many ships in ds9, it's still a small portion of the overall fleet composition. You are pointing out a lack of evidence on the subject, not supporting your claims. The one ship at wolf 359 says far more by comparison.
The star fleet mass produces everything should be pretty obvious, if you really want to stick to canon I could be a real stickler and claim the connie was the only class of ship in tos and they would need more than twelve. The word fleet could refer to a task force as well, there's still lots of wiggle room there.
When you take into account licensing costs, fan outcry, model availability/status, and cgi budget, it should be pretty apparent why we see the ships we see so often. One final bit on ds9, in such an extreme war, you would absolutely have to have as many of your best ships on the front line as possible, the lowest performing exploratory vessel would probably get the most continued service in that range of cruiser duties.
And since you brought up the museum Picard bit again, Picard is not obligated to know what all the star fleet is composed of. Still he captained the star gazer, if anything he placed the bridge design with the last completely removed era of tech or knew exactly what scotty wanted. The refit was an almost completely different beast.
Oh and at no time during pre sovereign pre defiant eras would the Miranda best the Connie in anything other than rear facing fire power. The Miranda warp core was tiny as hell, and we know that thanks to wrath of khan, add in a giant deflector and the superior cruiser frame and you have a flat out better ship, all soft canon supports this notion.
When the need is up for bigger and better you phase out smaller and weaker first, basic rules of supply and demand, supported by the upwards trend of everything we see and hear about the federation.
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At no point did I claim that the Connie was the only ship in TOS. Kirk said '12 like her in the fleet' This indirectly implies there are plenty of ships, but directly says there are only 12 Constitutions. Some guesses there, yes, but far less than you have to make to support your claims.
Starfleet does not 'mass produce everything.' We can see they mass produced some things, but on screen evidence says that the Connie was not among those things. That's just wishful thinking on your part. The burden of proof is on you to show where they did. I can point to an exact number from a reliable source (Kirk), where's yours?
Picard may not know the exact details of everything that goes on in Starfleet, but I'm pretty sure he knew exactly who Scotty was, and what his service record was. Anything less would be sloppy and out of character for Picard. He certainly knew exactly who Kirk was immediately in Generations.
I won't dispute that the warp core was smaller, but I do have to ask...how do we know that from TWoK? At what point do they discuss warp core sizes? Funny that I don't remember that particular line. I also at no point said that the Miranda was a superior overall ship, just that it basically has the same fire power. All variants of the Miranda have at minimum 14 phaser emitters, 12 being in 6 dual banks on the main hull, and two single emitters aft. The Reliant-type has two more in the rollbar making the total 16, plus four photon launchers, 2 aft 2 forward. The Constitution refit had 6 dual emitter banks on the saucer, 2 single emitter aft banks are above the shuttlebay and four midship single emitter banks are located on the ventral surface of the engineering hull, two forward torpedoes and none aft. Total 16/4 to 18/2. Like I said, basically the same firepower.
Fact: there is a wrecked Connie in wolf 359 scenes.
Fact: I checked the relics scene on YouTube, Picard immediately pegs the program for a constitution class, no refit additures, his confidence belies an intimate knowledge, but this is all unimportant because:
Fact: We know Connie refits could be decomissioned without ending the whole run, case in point trying to decom the original enterprise while the Yorktown was still in service as seen in star trek 4.
Fact: Museums have contempory and recent displays all the time.
Fact: saying that we never see tons of Connie's makes them a dead ship line is a logical fallacy, you are hurting your cause.
Fact: federation space was getting bigger, enemies were becoming more powerful, scientific facilities were incapable of understanding many phenomena. These are all things the constitution class was better at handling compared to the Miranda, cruiser frames are cruiser frames throughout history because they are the best, and are given flagship roles as a result. You see the reliants warp core in twok, and in tmp you learn that phasers are keyed into the warp core, giving the enterprise much more powerful weapons, the Miranda is only better at fighting a retreating photon battle.
Fact summary/comparison:
Your arguments are torn apart by facts, not supported by them. The two actual facts you present of Picards quote and tos ship numbers never make a direct statement towards or against continued production, they just exist in some vague relation to the idea. The Connie at wolf 359 is undeniable, direct information regarding the issue, you just drone it out while going lalalalalala 'probabilities'.
Logical conjecture: making excelsiors and gradually increasing the size of star fleets ships shows that the federation needed more bigger ships, why make more Miranda's instead of constitutions then, why decommission more Miranda's than Connie's?
Logical conjecture: every starship we know to not fill a niche role is mass produced, we see tons of galaxies, excelsiors, Miranda's, nebulas, and FC era ships, and several ambassadors. If the Klingons can field three constitution equivalent ktinga class vessels to investigate a scientific phenomena in tmp, the federation would definitely need many of their own Connie's as a potential answer to such a threat.
Conjecture summary/comparison: I am looking at the over all trends of star fleet ship composition while you are just looking at snippets of ships shown on a budget.
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So what? The original Enterprise was old at this point, at minimum 40 years old, and heavily damaged on top of that. Remember, Scott himself pretty much said the power systems were shot and 'bypassed like a Christmas tree' Old and heavily damaged? Well hey, look at that, let's just rename this freshly refit ship to make Kirk happy.
They do this kind of thing in the US and other Navies all the time. Just because they keep some in service while retiring others of the same class does not automatically prove they are still building new ones. Just look at the Ticonderoga class missile cruisers. 27 were built, 22 still active, 5 retired, but they sure as heck aren't building more.
So now you're claiming TOS era Constitutions were still in service and not refits? That isn't what you claimed before, now is it? Contemporary would have to mean that that exact configuration was still in use. Thought that refit thing was a whole different animal? We never do see them AND we know a fixed number of how many existed to start with, with no actual evidence of more being built, plus a knowledge of how many of those were lost. Minimum 7 lost, almost forgot about the Defiant (NCC-1764) being lost to the Tholians/Mirror Universe.
How do you know that for sure? As I recall, the first time we see a Miranda, its doing what? Oh that's right, scientific surveys for the Genesis project.
You hurt your own argument here. The only shot we see of the Reliant's warp core is a reuse of the same exact set used to depict the Enterprise's warp core. So unless you want to claim they use the same warp core...
Fact summary/comparison: Wishful thinking doesn't make me wrong.
But combine that with the number of times we see them ever again outside of Wolf 359, which is precisely zero...
And you drone it out with 'well I think this should have happened, I can't prove it in any way, but hey I said so' So far you've given very little or no cite-able 'direct information' to support your claims.
Conjecture, given nearly equal firepower, the less complex design, less resources to build, the obvious flexibility of the frame given how many variants of it we see. We also see several variants of the Nebula, maybe there's something about being able to easily change out that mission pod up top that makes this layout more versatile than the standard cruiser.
Original production run of the Galaxy was 6, only 10 can be confirmed in all of the Dominion war. True, but with the Connie refit being from virtually the same era, where are they? True, but with the Connie refit being from virtually the same era, where are they?
The Nebula is the Galaxy's Miranda, we can name about 16 here, with a few unnamed in all of Trek (counting TNG, DS9, VOY) So they made brand spanking new ships, and even had the Millennium Falcon in First Contact, but no Constitution to be had, not even as wreckage or background shots this time. Not to mention the Frankenstein fleet in the Dominion war, where they had to go out of their way to make some god awful ugly physical models to fill out the shots, but not even once with the already built models of a Connie. We even see the ever so rare Ambassador more than Constitutions in the TNG+ eras More unsupported speculations. This would only work if the Constitution was the only class of starship during that era, and we know that not to be true.
I'm looking at empirical evidence, you're looking to support your cause no matter how much stuff you have to make up. After all, as I mentioned before, they went out of their way to make some ugly, ugly kitbashes. If budget was the only concern they would have trotted out models already built...and they did, just not the Constitution.
And you know what, you almost got your wish of actually being able to point to a Constitution in TNG. In S01E09 The Battle, the original script called for the Stargazer to be a Connie, and even had Geordi's line already recorded calling it a Constitution. But you know what? They decided it was a bad idea, and went out of their way to create a new filming model and overdub the line with Constellation. So you can keep pointing to budget issues all day long, and I can point to instances where they avoided using a Connie intentionally.
You just tried to rebuke a point by adding reasons to why it could happen. Unless you can provide evidence that says ships don't get recalled together it remains fact. It's also nice of you to point out that they were still actively refitting Connie's at the time, more evidence that the ship had staying power in the fleet.
Now you are putting words in my mouth, but it's certainly a possibility if the yorktown had just then been refit.
If you can provide any real evidence other than a fallacy of silence about how production continued after this number was given il admit I was wrong about the subject. Until then the number means absolutely nothing.
Wow, that really convinced me the Miranda is a superior science vessel. That was a lie, the constitution class was a dedicated explorer, and it sported a large forward facing deflector, givining it a vast array of scientific abilities the Miranda lacked.
Sure why not, giving them the same style of warp core only helps my point. The connies warp core goes through the neck to the saucer, there's no way a smaller version of the same warp core could outperform the Connie's. That's a cool bit of trivia though.
And I can point out that they wanted to use a Connie just like you did because it was obviously still in service, can you cite the exact reasons why they didn't use it? A million internet dollars says the issue wasn't the ships comissionary status, if it was why would they make a ship that was so similar?
Last surviving unit and training ship would mean she was still in service. Being in a museum does not exclusively mean the ship was discontinued either, but I will entertain the notion for hilarities sake.
Lets say hollywood decided to make a movie about the academy museum theory because that's totally the type of thing Hollywood would love.
Cadets, this is an emergency announcement, everyone get to the shuttle bays for deployment in battle on a mothballed ship, don't worry, we have thirty nine other standard ships on their way to almost certainly handle this meager threat only worth forty ships. This will be considered a project for your collective portfolios due in December, exam the experience and resolve yourself with intent to improve in lacking proficiencies. But that's all later, make haste!
On board the shuttles, the students realize they are being stationed on a Connie, some nerd says they should take the excelsior class five lanes over, everyone makes fun of him and says it will build character.
Finally on the bridge, acting ensign potato is made acting commander acting ensign, and told to obtain whatever he needs for launch from utopia yards. Before he can do anything comm signals flood everyone's newly received comm badges. Nothing works except for the replicators, doors, toilets, and educational programs.
It turns out every critical system is missing components that were given to other ships or removed to prevent stealing secrets, by both enemies and would be terrorists. Star fleet shuttles are already on the way though, and everyone quickly gets to work on installations.
"Acting commander acting ensign potato, all the new components are installed and heated up, ready to warp on command." But before any action can be made, star fleet gets on the line, everyone there is getting honorary red squad status, the crew claps. The good spirits are quickly dampened when they realize they need to update the software because no one really gets those old console controls. Acting commander acting ensign potato wipes a bead of sweat of his brow, "it's a good thing we aren't using old hardware and old software too, mixing them will fix everything".
An hour later final double checks are completed and the uss bright futures goes to warp 8, the engineer can't handle power calculations for warp 9. On the way there key acting ensigns go over the Borg intel. The conn officer starts to shake uncontrollably, he says they don't stand a chance and tries to turn the ship around. "Here, take these barely legal drugs I just replicated, they will make you feel better" says potato. Acting ensign acting conn officer celery agrees and is soon lost in supplementary flight maneuver instructions.
By the time they get there the Borg are long gone, and they accidentally trigger the self destruct sequence while learning how it functions. It's true they use the st 3 sfs model for it and everything.
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The only time we see one is as wreckage, in a place that can easily be explained as a desperate move.
Everything points to Constitutions just not being in service. We don't see them, don't hear about them, and have no evidence whatsoever that they were produced in the large numbers you suggest.
1st. i have the TOS era STAR FLEET TECHNICAL MANUAL and it showes all the names of constitution's built and there was far more than the original 12.
2nd. this thread was supposed to be about a t5 connie, not how implausible it was for story, after all the excelsior its a 120+ yr old design that got shot to hell more than once in the dominion war(Lakota was one exception that revived special upgrades it would have been too costly to upgrade all thats why new designs are made there are real world exampls of this) if it can be kept at t3,t5 retro AND a fleet version(only to keep the fans happy) we can get a t5 connie or a holo
3. ITS A GAME beliveabilaty will always be sacrificed for gameplay thats why 50%+ captains are vice admiral and beam into borg infested areas and people want to cry cannon?
Sorry to completley ignore that huge argument you both just had (I'll go back and read over it), but you have just sort of come up with the single most legitimate excuse for putting a T5 Connie in the game.
Perhaps, even in the 25th Century, the Constitution makes an excellent ship for cadet training - i.e. role it inherited during the 2280s. Whilst other modern ships are off exploring the galaxy, Connies and reproduction Connies with better abilities provide a vital function of being active postings for Midshipmen and cadets.
That seems like the sort of ship that an Admiral - like Admiral Kirk in The Wrath of Khan - would command, imparting knowledge and wisdom to the fresh new officers. Fleet Captain Pike also left the Enterprise to command a Class-J Training Ship - so there's a history of flag officers becoming senior instructors.
Perhaps Cryptic could introduce the T5 Connie as a reward for completing a chain of assignments at the Academy, or scoring highly in Kobyashi Maru scenarios? :P
And again - it doesn't have to be in active service, it can be in serving AS a museum ship. I.e. filling a ceremonial role for diplomatic missions, or serving as an honourary flagship for senior Admirals. It really doesn't matter, as long as there's an ATTEMPT at a excuse.
STO is not a chronologically, canonically or continuital conscious game. It is a game that is doing a, frankly, bloody good job of mixing every series into one game - there are elements of every period, every aesthetic style, every series, every movie. And they blend very well together.
I don't think a T5 TOS-era ship would be so out of place in that universe.
Well how else are we supposed to try and make a difference, apart from by generating discussion to show that there's interest?