PVP Classic Tournament

devorasx · January 2013

Hello my good fellow pvp`s. As of recent we had a discussion regarding rules for a classic tournament, and we had a debate on whats acceptable or not. The final and last draft is here:

Glorious classic draft

Please feel free to comment and add your opinion before we announce a date for it to start.

Cheers and happy pew pew`ing :cool:

p2wsucks · January 2013

Fyi, RMC is listed as allowed pre-order item, but disallowed under device restrictions. Should probably clarify.

mancom · January 2013

p2wsucks wrote: »

Fyi, RMC is listed as allowed pre-order item, but disallowed under device restrictions. Should probably clarify.

Thanks for pointint that out. It's supposed to be allowed.

aquitaine985 · January 2013

Where does one post a team?

devorasx · January 2013

aquitaine985 wrote: »

Where does one post a team?

Once everyone, hopefully everyone, has a chance to review and add/comment on the draft (if they wish), a new seperate thread will be made for signups and timers for the tournament.

dontdrunkimshoot · January 2013

for some strange reason, ive hung on to some really good normal deflectors that i never really planed on using. 1 had like +32 to shield heals skill, the other had +24 to hull repair and +24 to shield heal. anyone want them? this is were something like them would be useful.

xtremenoob1 · January 2013

dontdrunkimshoot wrote: »

for some strange reason, ive hung on to some really good normal deflectors that i never really planed on using. 1 had like +32 to shield heals skill, the other had +24 to hull repair and +24 to shield heal. anyone want them? this is were something like them would be useful.

if it's +32 to emitters I could find a nice home for it

gradstudent1 · January 2013

dontdrunkimshoot wrote: »

for some strange reason, ive hung on to some really good normal deflectors that i never really planed on using. 1 had like +32 to shield heals skill, the other had +24 to hull repair and +24 to shield heal. anyone want them? this is were something like them would be useful.

Oh so could I! Dang, Pheo, you already out heal me in most cases. Let me have them=) Just kidding.

maicake716 · January 2013

i am a little curious as to why trics arnt allowed.

i remember back in season 2 a very effective tric torp bomber recon i had.

the mines i can understand why, but the tric torps?

dontdrunkimshoot · January 2013

maicake716 wrote: »

i am a little curious as to why trics arnt allowed.

i remember back in season 2 a very effective tric torp bomber recon i had.

the mines i can understand why, but the tric torps?

i could understand torp and mine skills not being allowed with them, but banned outright?

oh and if anyone would like those deflectors, find me on opvp or something, i'll show them off. first come first serve!

webdeath · January 2013

Why not just not allow Dispersal Pattern Beta to be used with Tricobalt Mines?

Also I agree, I don't understand why Tricobalt Torpedoes are not allowed... Kinda confused with that one.

devorasx · January 2013

WE banned tricos due to its use with DPB X and HY X, and the current uncertain state of trico mines. If we did allow trics it would be hard to police, and hence decided to ban them to make it the more practical and easier for all.

emoejoe · January 2013

devorasx wrote: »

WE banned tricos due to its use with DPB X and HY X, and the current uncertain state of trico mines. If we did allow trics it would be hard to police, and hence decided to ban them to make it the more practical and easier for all.

anyone who cant tell a mine from a torp shouldnt be allowed food in rl

the sta trackr program will even id them for you!! (edit)

devorasx · January 2013

emoejoe wrote: »

anyone who cant tell a mine from a torp shouldnt be allowed food in rl

the sta trackr program will even id them for you!! (edit)

Gateway is somewhat down. If it wasnt then yes, it would be easier.

evilghost1026 · January 2013

I really like the rules for this tournament. I do have a question though. Shouldnt Vet boffs not be allowed since they're relatively new? season 6ish? when game went f2p i believe.
Thanks

floodedgusset69 · January 2013

Yeah, this tournament setup sounds like they're tailoring the rules to fit a certain fleet's playstyle and equipment loadout. Excluding pre-order items should be first on the list actually. Vet Boffs too, since all potential players DO NOT have access to them.

But ThiS Interesting fleet probably has all that stuff and doesn't wanna lose.

novalous · January 2013

Vet boffs were from the conversion to dillithium so its before f2p but i would be for not allowing them for the simple fact that only a few elite players have 5 of them. So the plus 25 could be an advantage.

maicake716 · January 2013

commandodan2001 wrote: »

Yeah, this tournament setup sounds like they're tailoring the rules to fit a certain fleet's playstyle and equipment loadout. Excluding pre-order items should be first on the list actually. Vet Boffs too, since all potential players DO NOT have access to them.

But ThiS Interesting fleet probably has all that stuff and doesn't wanna lose.

What.... Are you serious?

You're joking right?

I mean seriously?

And the issue with the vet boffs I think is more of a "how do you police something that you can't see" issue then anything else.

But dude... Seriously!?

aquitaine985 · January 2013

One week they're apologising for ruining a tourniment, the next week it's busiiness as usual

mancom · January 2013

I think maybe tricobalt torpedoes could be allowed back in. Or are there any known major problems with them?

Regarding vet boffs: The reason they are still in is that they are essentially humans (i.e. leadership trait) which are currently allowed and their second space trait doesn't seem to be that powerful, even when you have 5 of them. (I personally never bothered to spend vet tokens beyond one boff for testing purposes. I still have several unused fed and kdf tokens.)

Another reason to keep boff race restrictions to a minimum: Players have only a very limited amount of space for these and it's not easy to transfer a boff to a different character on the same account (you always need a second player to help) to make room for other boffs.

And whoever claims that these rules favour some fleets: I don't think anyone really knows whether all these restrictions will end up favouring damage or healing until some matches with this ruleset have actually been played. If you have sound arguments why one should expect one extreme or the other, then please share them, so that they can be taken into account.

kylemaxwell · January 2013

that's exactly like pvp should be!
good old pvp days without all the usual TRIBBLE nowadays!

ilhansk · January 2013

maicake716 wrote: »

What.... Are you serious?

You're joking right?

I mean seriously?

And the issue with the vet boffs I think is more of a "how do you police something that you can't see" issue then anything else.

But dude... Seriously!?

In case you missed the allusion:

That is exactly how I felt when last week when some...err...one made the same allegations regarding another tournament...

mancom wrote: »

And whoever claims that these rules favour some fleets: [...] If you have sound arguments why one should expect one extreme or the other, then please share them, so that they can be taken into account.

Aha. I like you Hilbert, but I wished you spoke up a week ago for this other... well, lets leave it at that... :rolleyes:

zarathos1978 · January 2013

Rules looks cool, pretty much what I'm using in STO anyway (minus DOFFs, but I do have only those I got during leveling).

Shame I'm teamless PUGer so no tournaments for me

antoniosalieri · January 2013

Are you guys really trying to take shoots at the rules ? lol your guys are starting to become a bit of a joke.

Vet boffs ? seriously who cares. If someone honestly rounded themselves up 5 and choose to use them and sacrifice the allowed bonus from the eff doffs completely... let them its there dumb build. If they kept 2-3 of the effs and have 2-3 of the E boffs it will make zero difference.

What a stupid rule to complain about. lol

ilhansk · January 2013

Meant to be tongue-in-cheek and for you guys to think something about. Rules are fine. You guys go ahead

emoejoe · January 2013

mancom wrote: »

I think maybe tricobalt torpedoes could be allowed back in. Or are there any known major problems with them?

i knew i liked u. amen bro bring trico back ill rock hegtha for special occasion if u do

floodedgusset69 · January 2013

maicake716 wrote: »

What.... Are you serious?

You're joking right?

I mean seriously?

And the issue with the vet boffs I think is more of a "how do you police something that you can't see" issue then anything else.

But dude... Seriously!?

No, I'm not joking.

And 'policing stuff you can't see' is a good point. Pre-order items need left out, period. Vet Boffs also, but that's nearly impossible to enforce. But the statement should be made. You can't allow a presumption of non-enforceability to prevent you from trying to make Classic PvP fairer. Stacking 5 gives an advantage, all else equal, and they were not native to the early versions of the game.

I've played since the tail end of beta; those of you who came in F2P and don't remember the game before then would do fine to stay out of the discussion.

I didn't apologize for anything, by the way. I would never. I think you misunderstand the hierarchy of things in my Fleet, to which, there is none. I don't speak on behalf of or for the Fleet; if someone goes off and makes posts that haven't been discussed round-table style and you guys think that's the party line, shame on you, you'll believe anything it looks like...

mancom · January 2013

commandodan2001 wrote: »

Pre-order items need left out, period.

"period" is not a particularly strong argument. Maybe you could elaborate on why you want them excluded?

The Neodymium Deflector Dish will probably not see much use (and who has it anyway?) since there are deflectors with +Hull/Shields that are probably overall better than +8 Aux and crappy Mk I stats.
The Automated Defense Turret and the Light Phaser Satellite Turret are tactical consoles, which deters most players from slotting them. And they are fairly useless (unless the enemy is going for a tricobalt bomber strategy).
The Radiometric Converter - well, I personally know only one player (Kai) who owns that.
The Red Matter Capacitor is probably the strongest of the items. My first draft of the rules had this item as not allowed, but apparently the players who met for the rules discussion decided to change that (before I arrived late on TS). Perhaps one of them could explain what led to this decision?

Overall I think of the inclusion of the preorder items as a nod to the good old times. So far I can't really see any major balance implications, but maybe you can provide a different perspective.

commandodan2001 wrote: »

Vet Boffs also, but that's nearly impossible to enforce.

I have already mentioned that I personally don't consider the Vet Boffs to be particularly powerful and still have unused vet doff requisition tokens because I never felt it necessary to build a full crew with them.
I think we are talking about something like +0.5% crth, +6% crtd, +2.5% acc for a full crew of 5. (Numbers are off the top of my head, please correct me if they are significantly off.) Considering the difficulties of having a full boff roster and moving boffs between characters on the same account to make room for plain boffs, I don't think that these are problematic enough to ban them. Are they even truly better than a full efficient crew?
Again, please elaborate if there is an aspect that I'm missing.

(And note that they still might get banned if it turns out that leadership is too powerful and hence human boffs would need to be removed altogether.)

Something else:
The big factor is the reputation system. Players who have T2/4 passives will be at a noticeable advantage over players who have not levelled their reputation. And since a classic tournament by design is also aimed at getting old players back into the game, this will put them at a disadvantage that is much bigger than anything from vet boffs or a rmc.

devorasx · January 2013

The reason why the RMC was in is due to the fact it was an item you could get if you preordered the game back when the game was launched. So the pretense is that if you are going to allow other items like the radiometric converter etc, which was too released as a bonus item at the start of the game, then all items should be allowed. Else it wouldnt make sense or be fair.

Nevertheless good to see so many being active and responsive. By friday ill set a date and where people can sign up fleets or/and individual persons who might want to form a team if they got no fleet/part of a fleet

maicake716 · January 2013

commandodan2001 wrote: »

No, I'm not joking.

And 'policing stuff you can't see' is a good point. Pre-order items need left out, period. Vet Boffs also, but that's nearly impossible to enforce. But the statement should be made. You can't allow a presumption of non-enforceability to prevent you from trying to make Classic PvP fairer. Stacking 5 gives an advantage, all else equal, and they were not native to the early versions of the game.

I've played since the tail end of beta; those of you who came in F2P and don't remember the game before then would do fine to stay out of the discussion.

I didn't apologize for anything, by the way. I would never. I think you misunderstand the hierarchy of things in my Fleet, to which, there is none. I don't speak on behalf of or for the Fleet; if someone goes off and makes posts that haven't been discussed round-table style and you guys think that's the party line, shame on you, you'll believe anything it looks like...

it was more the tone of the implications then anything else, also keep in mind this tourny is not being "endorsed" by crypitc like the failed one was.
im not personally holding anything against you or your fleet and think that since it was a cryptic "endorsed" event they should have taken a more active role in watching it.

but i digress.

mancom wrote: »

The Neodymium Deflector Dish will probably not see much use (and who has it anyway?) since there are deflectors with +Hull/Shields that are probably overall better than +8 Aux and crappy Mk I stats.
The Automated Defense Turret and the Light Phaser Satellite Turret are tactical consoles, which deters most players from slotting them. And they are fairly useless (unless the enemy is going for a tricobalt bomber strategy).
The Radiometric Converter - well, I personally know only one player (Kai) who owns that.
The Red Matter Capacitor is probably the strongest of the items. My first draft of the rules had this item as not allowed, but apparently the players who met for the rules discussion decided to change that (before I arrived late on TS). Perhaps one of them could explain what led to this decision?

Overall I think of the inclusion of the preorder items as a nod to the good old times. So far I can't really see any major balance implications, but maybe you can provide a different perspective.

.

i have all those but the neodymium dish (stupid scy fy TRIBBLE -_-)

the auto defense turret has always been handy on non tac builds. its also what has kept me alive (mostly) through the tric mine bombers attacks.

the radio metric converter i think has been broken since the maco set came out. it has not given me a single power proc since i got my maco shields. i dont know if maybe theres a "no power stacking" code or something but it needs to be fixed because i miss it.

the red matter capacitor.. well im indefferent on this. i can either make do with or without.

p2wsucks · January 2013

It probably should be understood w/the no Doffs rule, but may want to explicitly state no Doff mission bonuses as well if it's not already there.

I'm not sure if it's the result of the Gateway or not, but I've noticed there is often no longer an abilitiy to check a players ship type by clicking Info on it. It's very minor and I realize this can be done visually (assuming no holograms), but may want to make a no hologram rule?

Fyi, KDF can potentionally have 1 Human Boff from Marauding Doff award. Iirc some Aliens may have the Human space trait as well (though it may just be the ground one). So, not sure that will be much of an issue compared to Romulan Boffs, which should be excluded if they're not already.

For RMC, there are a couple of pontential issues. The 1st is for ships w/only 2 devices slots it gives the player ubiquity of subsystem type repair. Kinda minor, but an advantage. What I don't know is how effective it is vs VM compared to ET. Currently ET is schedule for a fix, but until than if RMC is significantly better I can see that being an issue.

My biggest concern is still the Rep system rewards. Though, I don't think there's a reasonable way to deal w/this atm.

PVP Classic Tournament

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