Im talking tieing defense soley to engine power, and not based on speed and turn rate. E.g at 125 power def rating is at 90%, at 25 engine power def rating is down to 20 etc.
Defense isn't everything... there are also more ways to disable an escort then a tractor beam or a gravity well.
My Fed Engineer... (Aegis set) @ Full Impulse (everything else stripped from the ships)
Chel Grett:
51/25 Eng Power
90% Bonus Defense, 24.61 Impulse, 22.9 Turn
Advanced Escort:
46/25 Eng Power
90% Bonus Defense, 24.66 Impulse, 28.2 Turn
111/100 Eng Power
90% Bonus Defense, 50.92 Impulse, 36.8 Turn
Mirror Star Cruiser:
51/25 Eng Power
73.9% Bonus Defense, 21.55 Impulse, 11.0 Turn
116/100 Eng Power
80% Bonus Defense, 41.24 Impulse, 13.6 Turn
edit: Should mention he's got Elusive and 9 in Maneuvers.
That is the most extreme defence rateing you can get. And is like sayn target sub system one drains to much power an then linking a fleet deepspace sci ship with 5 mk xii embacy flowcap consoules 9 poinst in flowcaps an flawcaps defelctor an the flowcaps trait.....
"But it ain't all buttons and charts, little albatross. You know what the first rule of flyin' is? Love. You can know all the math in the 'Verse, but take a boat in the air you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turning of worlds. Love keeps her in the air when she oughta fall down, tells ya she's hurtin' 'fore she keens. Makes her home."
So your saying the ship class that has access at best (not counting stupid Cryptic abomination releases with lt cmd sci and engi slots)... tier 2 heals... should not have some type of defensive skill ? (not to mention that crusiers and sci ships both have abomination versions that would allow for omega delta rolls as well)
Yes escort players are using delta and omega to devise fairly tanky setup to make up for the fact that they can't slot 20k shield heals and 20k hull heals... like those poor cruiser and sci ships.
If you have any issue with escort defense roles it goes to Doffs and nothing more.... should we have doffs that allow us to keep omega up 50% of the time and delta up the other 50% ? mabey not... but look to the doff that allows it not the ship class. lol
No. The point is that its not fair nor balanced for science and cruisers to have their defense values lowered even further from the pathetic value it is, when tacticals in escorts can beef theirs up like mad while reducing others to 0. And they are the only ones who can do it, while science and cruisers cant raise it at all.
And dont give me that nonesense that cruisers and science can beef resistance up and have high hull/shield, cause escorts can compete fairly well in resistance and heals as well. Its just on top of that, they get hit way less regardless of what magnitude they are hit with, and can dish out lots of damage. So much damage they can easy negate resistance with FOM, APO, APA, and goodness forbid if they got GDF running as well. So much for that grandiose 20k shield and 60k hull.
And please dont even bother to mention accuracy, cause defense is so high accuracy doesnt matter. It actually benefits escorts way more due to the fact they can lower resistance and defense, and the fact they seldom get hit at high speeds.
Co-founder of The Spanish Inquisition TSI - Cause no one expects it!
PaxOttomana: gawd mirror event is like fighting a tsi premade, they keep comin and comin!
Im talking tieing defense soley to engine power, and not based on speed and turn rate. E.g at 125 power def rating is at 90%, at 25 engine power def rating is down to 20 etc.
That is absured.....to exspect a escort to put that much power into engines would cripple its own survivabilty an would see a return of the days of STI an there cruser's owning everything (before defence rateing was fixed on ships) oh yer i see what your doing here an i am not gona let it pass
"But it ain't all buttons and charts, little albatross. You know what the first rule of flyin' is? Love. You can know all the math in the 'Verse, but take a boat in the air you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turning of worlds. Love keeps her in the air when she oughta fall down, tells ya she's hurtin' 'fore she keens. Makes her home."
Well true, but it would be a way to fix defense values. Atleast im bloody proposing something =|
Your the only one saying that it needs to fix'd..or that its broken..........IF ITS NOT BROKE DONT BREAK IT AN SAY YOUR FIXING IT
"But it ain't all buttons and charts, little albatross. You know what the first rule of flyin' is? Love. You can know all the math in the 'Verse, but take a boat in the air you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turning of worlds. Love keeps her in the air when she oughta fall down, tells ya she's hurtin' 'fore she keens. Makes her home."
Au contre mes ami, Thissler seems to think the same way, only abit more drastic.
Got one Question for you 2 then do you fly escort as your main ship? or do you fly something else.....
"But it ain't all buttons and charts, little albatross. You know what the first rule of flyin' is? Love. You can know all the math in the 'Verse, but take a boat in the air you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turning of worlds. Love keeps her in the air when she oughta fall down, tells ya she's hurtin' 'fore she keens. Makes her home."
Got one Question for you 2 then do you fly escort as your main ship? or do you fly something else.....
Im a science captan and I fly a Wells and a Mobius as my main ships. I think Thissler is a tactical captain and flies usually a BoP. Oh, and im proposing a change, not a fix.
Co-founder of The Spanish Inquisition TSI - Cause no one expects it!
PaxOttomana: gawd mirror event is like fighting a tsi premade, they keep comin and comin!
Well true, but it would be a way to fix defense values. Atleast im bloody proposing something =|
Well its not really whats wrong with the game... whats wrong with the game (doffs and items with no fore thought put into them) will never get fixed... the game is full of TRIBBLE that doesn't work... but its intentional. So really don't let this game get you worked up... assume that PvP has been deleted from STO... because as far as Cryptic is concerned it is. Lets stop pretending and playing along like they would like us to to... I'll still come and RP in my star ship, but I don't consider anything in this game pvp anymore.
That is the most extreme defence rateing you can get. And is like sayn target sub system one drains to much power an then linking a fleet deepspace sci ship with 5 mk xii embacy flowcap consoules 9 poinst in flowcaps an flawcaps defelctor an the flowcaps trait.....
edit: Decided to show Impulse, Combat, and Hyper instead of just Impulse.
All of my guys have Elusive and 9 in Maneuvers. Here, let me drop a regular Mk I engines in them - everything else stripped.
Chel Gret:
w/Impulse
51/25 Eng Power (18.12 Impulse/21.9 Turn) - 65.3% Defense
116/100 Eng Power (34.45 Impulse/28.5 Turn) - 80% Defense
w/Combat
51/25 Eng Power (17.87 Impulse/21.9 Turn) - 64.7% Defense
116/100 Eng Power (27.67 Impulse/28.5 Turn) - 80% Defense
w/Hyper
51/25 Eng Power (18.43 Impulse/21.9 Turn) - 66.1% Defense
116/100 Eng Power (40.47 Impulse/28.5 Turn) - 80% Defense
Advanced Escort:
w/Impulse
46/25 Eng Power (18.15 Impulse/26.9 Turn) - 65.4% Defense
111/100 Eng Power (36.29 Impulse/35.5 Turn) - 80% Defense
w/Combat
46/25 Eng Power (17.89 Impulse/26.9 Turn) - 64.7% Defense
111/100 Eng Power (28.77 Impulse/35.5 Turn) - 80% Defense
w/Hyper
46/25 Eng Power (18.47 Impulse/26.9 Turn) - 66.2% Defense
111/100 Eng Power (42.96 Impulse/35.5 Turn) - 80% Defense
Mirror Star Cruiser:
w/Impuse
51/25 Eng Power (16.01 Impulse/10.6 Turn) - 50% Defense
116/100 Eng Power (29.61 Impulse/13.2 Turn) - 70% Defense
w/Combat
51/25 Eng Power (16.6 Impulse/10.6 Turn) - 51.5% Defense
116/100 Eng Power (24.77 Impulse/13.2 Turn) - 70% Defense
w/Hyper
51/25 Eng Power (15.57 Impulse/10.6 Turn) - 48.9% Defense
116/100 Eng Power (33.94 Impulse/13.2 Turn) - 70% Defense
Additional Edit Notes: Notice the difference in the Combat/Hyper for the Escort(s) vs. Cruiser? It switches. Power's the same. It's something I've been arguing for a period of time now - the whole Combat vs. Hyper engines. It's not always a case that Hyper > Combat.
Well its not really whats wrong with the game... whats wrong with the game (doffs and items with no fore thought put into them) will never get fixed... the game is full of TRIBBLE that doesn't work... but its intentional. So really don't let this game get you worked up... assume that PvP has been deleted from STO... because as far as Cryptic is concerned it is. Lets stop pretending and playing along like they would like us to to... I'll still come and RP in my star ship, but I don't consider anything in this game pvp anymore.
I refuse to realize it has come to that! *Cryyyyy*
Co-founder of The Spanish Inquisition TSI - Cause no one expects it!
PaxOttomana: gawd mirror event is like fighting a tsi premade, they keep comin and comin!
Im a science captan and I fly a Wells and a Mobius as my main ships. I think Thissler is a tactical captain and flies usually a BoP. Oh, and im proposing a change, not a fix.
An i am sayn it dosen't need to be changed your argueing that someone whos specd an geard for defence rateing is to hard to hit Would be like saying oh your wells is hard to kill cause your speced to heal (e.g.). Besides most escorts A. dont have elusive trait B. Dont run Aegies
"But it ain't all buttons and charts, little albatross. You know what the first rule of flyin' is? Love. You can know all the math in the 'Verse, but take a boat in the air you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turning of worlds. Love keeps her in the air when she oughta fall down, tells ya she's hurtin' 'fore she keens. Makes her home."
I refuse to realize it has come to that! *Cryyyyy*
I have tried to be optimistic for 3 years... I know we all have. I just can't do it anymore... it hasn't failed for 3 years. Cryptic takes a step forward... and a week later they take 3 back. When has that not been the case. Every patch we can think of where something good happened for pvp, same patch something else got broke... or a week later in the next patch... or the following weekend when they would drop some new item.
This game could still be one of the best balanced PvP games in the market with a total of 5-6 changes, that pretty much any group of 3-4 of the long time pvp guys could sit down and brain storm in about 30 min... however bottom line Cryptic has no intention of doing the work on there end that would be involved in implementing it.
At this point defense and all the coding for it is likely buried so deep across so many subroutines that are likely unnoted... that it would simply be a challenge for them to even adjust base defense numbers on specific ships. (come on we all know thats true)
I respect the hope you hold for things devoras your a smart player and I may disagree with you on solutions for some of the issues you are talking about, I still respect your thoughts on it though... its just sad facts though no matter who is right, or what would work better in STO... Cryptic doesn't see the value in pursuing any of it.
So your saying the ship class that has access at best (not counting stupid Cryptic abomination releases with lt cmd sci and engi slots)... tier 2 heals... should not have some type of defensive skill ? (not to mention that crusiers and sci ships both have abomination versions that would allow for omega delta rolls as well)
Yes escort players are using delta and omega to devise fairly tanky setup to make up for the fact that they can't slot 20k shield heals and 20k hull heals... like those poor cruiser and sci ships.
If you have any issue with escort defense roles it goes to Doffs and nothing more.... should we have doffs that allow us to keep omega up 50% of the time and delta up the other 50% ? mabey not... but look to the doff that allows it not the ship class. lol
The irony is that my two heals and my Delta rarely go to myself anyway, because what's the point? You're an escort, you can cut damage down with resists but you're not gonna heal it off. Give it to your teammates who can keep you alive instead and you'll be golden.
Well its not really whats wrong with the game... whats wrong with the game (doffs and items with no fore thought put into them) will never get fixed... the game is full of TRIBBLE that doesn't work... but its intentional. So really don't let this game get you worked up... assume that PvP has been deleted from STO... because as far as Cryptic is concerned it is. Lets stop pretending and playing along like they would like us to to... I'll still come and RP in my star ship, but I don't consider anything in this game pvp anymore.
(Off-Topic) Has a point starting to think that these broken items are add'd so they can get you to keep playing........ an here we are whineing about balance when they wont nerf something if the op factor is the whole reason they are selling in the first place.... they never have an never will do something that will undermind the the bottom line.....an nothing would please me more then for them to prove me wrong
"But it ain't all buttons and charts, little albatross. You know what the first rule of flyin' is? Love. You can know all the math in the 'Verse, but take a boat in the air you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turning of worlds. Love keeps her in the air when she oughta fall down, tells ya she's hurtin' 'fore she keens. Makes her home."
I agree that defense shouldn't depend on speed: Defense should depend on deviation. A ship flying in a straight line at speed 50 is still a predictable sitting duck target. He's always going to be exactly where you predict he's going to be. As such, Evasive Maneuvers and APO shouldn't grant a defense bonus: The turn and speed bonus should grant the defense bonus when the pilot actually performs the evasive maneuvers using them. As it stands, you can get a defense bonus at point blank range while sitting still, which just looks really, really stupid.
If people want their high defense, they should be required to FLY like they're evading things, not just coast along in a straight line.
There also doesn't appear to be any impact on accuracy from range, with the result that in order to score a miss against some targets, shots have to actually fly so far off course that the angle the shots are flying is physically impossible for the weapon: If your target occupies more than the 45-degree cone in front of the weapon (for DHC), it shouldn't even be possible to miss that, since there is no direction in which you could fire that weapon that does not result in a hit.
Anyway defence rateing is no-issue for anyone with accurate trait an ACCx2 weps or ACCx3 weps an if your complain about Beam overload missing you should know Beam overload has a negative accuracy multiplier
"But it ain't all buttons and charts, little albatross. You know what the first rule of flyin' is? Love. You can know all the math in the 'Verse, but take a boat in the air you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turning of worlds. Love keeps her in the air when she oughta fall down, tells ya she's hurtin' 'fore she keens. Makes her home."
Hrmmm, this particular post was so bad - so all over the place - such a mix of rushed/misinformation... I'm not sure it's even worth editing.
Still, I think the part about "balance being an illusion" is hard to argue against... but it was such a minor part of the post, it's kind of moot.
edit: Yeah, I went for a smoke to think about editing this another way - but like I said in the original - it's kind of moot. Balance is an illusion. The obviously broken is broken and needs to be fixed, but there are simply too many factors involved for any discussion of balance.
That being said, even though it's to a later post in the thread - I think it's hard not to say that STO is Escorts Online at the moment. I believe that should be fixed. It shouldn't be a case of going back to Cruisers Online nor should through some drunken stumbling of submitting code should it be Science Vessels Online either.
But...again, that becomes moot. The balance might only exist in picking the first ship.
If you have no ships, then there should be equal value to an Escort, Cruiser, or Science Vessel. As soon as you've picked the first ship, the values will have changed for picking the next ship.
The same would go for Tac, Sci, and Eng Captains.
All of them should have equal value when picked first...that value will obviously change as you pick the additional captains and ships.
Some will increase in value and some will decrease in value as you strive for that balanced team - and - it should be a balanced team. Going too far in one direction should leave you open in another... so it should be a case of having a balanced team. This somewhat exists in PvP...doesn't come close in PvE.
1) defense vs acc doesn't end up being that simple. +30 -40 doesn't mean 10% as far as def vs acc goes.
2) Yes escorts deserve to have higher defense then other ships... and as others math has shown you the same math applies to cruisers... which assuming similer power settings in engines by your math would be almost identical miss chances. In in truth the miss chance of a escort vs a cruiser (ASSUMING all the same buffs are up) are almost identical... the escort has less inertia and can recover from disables and such in terms of defense stat a bit quicker and this can lead to the preception that they have so much more defense rating... Truth is 90 defense vs 60 defense doesn't make all that much difference in terms of to hit rate. However the escort is likely to be able to keep there defense numbers up for longer durration... not to mention that many people pilot there cruisers in a different way. Slowing to turn ect in a cruiser will kill your defense go figure. Escorts do pivot turn yes... but they don't pay for it as badly due to the much better inertia that allows them to be at top impulse again much quicker.
Bottom line if you parse the data of an escort WITHOUT Omega or or other buffs up... vs a cruiser also with out any buffs... both just running at full speed and taking fire... the hit rate will be with in a few %. If you do the same test with them both sitting still... both will take almost every hit but the escort will still evade a small number due to escorts defense bonus.
Yes this is needed in the game for balance. We can go on about escorts doing to much dmg to justify there defense rate... HOWEVER its a defense rating... its fluid and it can be countered hard... unlike Cruisers and Sci Ships that just get passive boosts to there HP pools. Cruisers have 10-40% more hull depending on which ships your comapring and sci ships have the same in terms of shields.
Is dmg to high ? Ya probaly is... however so is healing and health pools in general.
Turning escorts into glass cannons again would solve nothing in this game... it would return us to cruisers online.. and don't think cruisers can't still put out 90% of the dps of an escort cause they can... so nothing will change... the dps players will leave there escort glass cannons and all jump in there cruiser Aluminium oxynitride cannons.... again. lmao
Accurate gives +10%.
Each Acc modifier gives +10%.
9 in Targeting gives you +15%.
Having Accurate, ACCx3, and 9 in Targeting puts you at +55%.
Elusive gives your target +10% Defense.
9 in Maneuvers gives your target +15% in Defense.
That will drop you down to 30%.
So you could still be looking at a 10-35%+ chance to miss against Escorts.
Depending on how things work against that 90% cap - you could definitely be looking at a higher chance to miss during the use of abilities. The overflow Defense could still count against your bonus Accuracy.
Which gets back to the discussion on the various tanks. Given the increased damage Escorts do and thus the reduced tank they should have, is a 10-35% chance to miss them where they should be in comparison to other ships?
But also as mentioned, it's not that simple. Tractor and Subnuke them. They lose that avoidance tank. Meanwhile, the Cruiser for example - retains the mitigation tank. And you can't overlook how small that difference in Defense between an Escort and a Cruiser can be - somewhere in that ~10-15% range.
If a ship does +X damage, it should be able to take/avoid -X damage. That's straight up balance. Thus if you had a ship that did +10 damage, it could take -10 damage. Likewise, if a ship could take +10 damage - it should do -10 damage. (Yes, very rough numbers). The +10 damage ship vs. the -10 damage ship should result in a 50:50 win-loss ratio.
So taking into account the ~10-15% additional chance to miss an Escort, the reduced Hull and Shield Modifier...does that equate to the additional damage that can be done? Then again, for the Cruiser - the additional Hull and the 1.0 base Shield Modifier, does the additional damage that it can take...does that equate to the reduced damage that can be done?
It's not a 1v1, though. It's not an ideal situation. It's not just the two things, either - it's not just damage and taking damage. There's other stuff going on...
...cause add Sci into the mix, and well - it all goes poof.
Balance is an illusion in the game as said. There's just too many things for there to be balance. All the discussions about balance are going to be under ideal circumstances, ignoring the sheer amount of things that could be going on at any given point in the fight.
Outside of things that are obviously broken, not working as intended... well, sometimes you blow TRIBBLE up and sometimes you get your TRIBBLE blown up.
Accuacy is better then that. Just try useing a combat tracker you will see accuracy is much higher then the the displayed value's
"But it ain't all buttons and charts, little albatross. You know what the first rule of flyin' is? Love. You can know all the math in the 'Verse, but take a boat in the air you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turning of worlds. Love keeps her in the air when she oughta fall down, tells ya she's hurtin' 'fore she keens. Makes her home."
Accuacy is better then that. Just try useing a combat tracker you will see accuracy is much higher then the the displayed value's
That was a sleepy/caffeine-starved post. I should edit it.
The difference between the two does not equate 1:1 in regard to the chance to hit.
There's 100% base Accuracy. There's 100% base Defense. 100% base Accuracy vs. 100% base Defense = 100% Hit.
155% Accuracy vs. 190% Defense is still a 74% chance to hit. The 35% difference between the Acc and Def does not equate to a 35% chance to miss. It's only a 26% chance to miss.
Even without the Accurate trait, pts in Targeting, or Acc weapons - your base Accuracy against somebody with 90% bonus Defense is still going to leave you with around a 52.6% chance to hit.
I will say over and over until my lips are as chapped as the cliffs of Dover that anyone who thinks STO is Escorts Online isn't playing the same game I am.
They probably are not. Because for someone who plays from time to time and is not hardcore OPvP player: STO is Escorts Online. Buth in PUGland (PvP) and in PvE everything you can do with sci or cruiser you can do better with escort.
Trust me, I was such guy and there was HUGE difference between my effectiveness when I was playing sci or cruisers and when I sat in escort. Escort was simply better.
It changed only when I invested a lot of time into PvP (like - 99% of my in game time) when I started to notice difference and moved to cruisers and then scis. Zooming and booming escorts are still fun, but I do not think they are better then other classes. I have my issues with sci powers and eng/cruiser balance, but it like with everything the Cryptic touches.
But let me repeat once again: for common folk, that is playing PvE mostly and do PUGs mostly (and those are like most PVPlayers that are not part of OPvP) STO is escorts online.
Speed and defense is NEEDED in this game or it becomes Cruisers on line again. Speed bonuses to defense where required to balance this game out... you have a short memory if you don't remember the times when escorts went pop so fast that the only people that flew them where people that had a team with 3 healers on it. lol
Actually I think those times need to return. Escorts in ST are generally like Galaxy-class warp core. Look funny at it and it explodes. ST escorts are not USS Defiant with Sisco in it that are immune to everything but plot. Those are Sabres, Akiras, Defiants (Valiant) and Steamrunners that explode left and right when in combat. Escorts should have their defence and survivability severely limited. BUT they should also get similar boost to weapons power. Escorts should be gunboats/torpedo boats.
Blow the target before it starts shooting at you - the only defense available for escorts. Ships for really good pilots with offensive mindset. Not for everyone and their old granny.
Actually I think those times need to return. Escorts in ST are generally like Galaxy-class warp core. Look funny at it and it explodes. ST escorts are not USS Defiant with Sisco in it that are immune to everything but plot. Those are Sabres, Akiras, Defiants (Valiant) and Steamrunners that explode left and right when in combat. Escorts should have their defence and survivability severely limited. BUT they should also get similar boost to weapons power. Escorts should be gunboats/torpedo boats.
Blow the target before it starts shooting at you - the only defense available for escorts. Ships for really good pilots with offensive mindset. Not for everyone and their old granny.
Well it can never be like the show it is a game and all.
The glass cannon concept is fine and all... but I think the fact is escorts are still more fragile then a cruiser or even a sci ship.... most players are simply terrible cruiser and sci ship players.
The Tone down that some people seem to think needs to happen to defense... has NOTHING at all to do with the defense mechanic... it has to do with doffs. Doffs are pretty much at the root of everything anyone takes as a balance issue lately. I would say the fact that 8 out of 10 escort pilots have 2 Conn AP doffs to keep there omega 3s up 50% of the time is the real issue with the "undead" escort.
Also if we do go back to cruisers online... there will be no "offensive" minded players that will touch an escort... WHY ? when a cruiser can do the same amount of dmg with a ton more survivability... back in the days of Cruisers online. The games best escort players didn't fly them at all... they flew tac cruisers.
Yeah, but DOFFs are the crippled, but soooo loved child of Cryptic and they will not touch them becasue they fear they can harm them. They will sooner do something about primary stats then change DOFFs.
Escorts used to be avoidance-only tanks, but they're getting to be better at resistance tanking as well, so an escort can often survive longer than a cruiser. There are exceptions of course, but when I play dps I tend to go after cruisers because they're generally easier to kill than escorts.
A few observations really quick if you all don't mind.
1) EWP getting a damage boost from +Plasma consoles really is an unintended bug IMHO. They removed the +Kinetics from boosting Gravity Well and the like and it is only a matter of time until they discover this oversight and fix is especially post Embassy.
2) Player A has 900 shields at 60% resist. He also has 20% of shots miss. His EHP becomes 2812 or it will take that much raw damage to drop a facing. IF he increases that miss chance to 25% that does not increase his EHP by a measly 5% (45) oh no. Instead it becomes 3000.
My point? The math behind the scenes needs to be evaluated and overhauled adding consistency and allowing things to scale properly. Everything else is simply a bandaid over the fundamental problems that will continue to get worse with each addition.
I disagree. Defense being tied to speed makes sense. It penalises escorts that "park" behind their target and it gives things like tractor beams a meaning.
I think the greater problem is that APO gives a significant +defense boost and with doffs one can use only APO3 for even bigger +defense. This leads to your next point.
I disagree. I propose that the +defense buff is removed. This brings escort defense values that are inflated beyond reason by APO3 back in line. Maybe also increase the global to 45s to prevent the current APO/APB chaining? (There is currently no permanent uptime on APO like you claim, it's "only" 50%.)
Comments
Defense isn't everything... there are also more ways to disable an escort then a tractor beam or a gravity well.
That is the most extreme defence rateing you can get. And is like sayn target sub system one drains to much power an then linking a fleet deepspace sci ship with 5 mk xii embacy flowcap consoules 9 poinst in flowcaps an flawcaps defelctor an the flowcaps trait.....
No. The point is that its not fair nor balanced for science and cruisers to have their defense values lowered even further from the pathetic value it is, when tacticals in escorts can beef theirs up like mad while reducing others to 0. And they are the only ones who can do it, while science and cruisers cant raise it at all.
And dont give me that nonesense that cruisers and science can beef resistance up and have high hull/shield, cause escorts can compete fairly well in resistance and heals as well. Its just on top of that, they get hit way less regardless of what magnitude they are hit with, and can dish out lots of damage. So much damage they can easy negate resistance with FOM, APO, APA, and goodness forbid if they got GDF running as well. So much for that grandiose 20k shield and 60k hull.
And please dont even bother to mention accuracy, cause defense is so high accuracy doesnt matter. It actually benefits escorts way more due to the fact they can lower resistance and defense, and the fact they seldom get hit at high speeds.
PaxOttomana: gawd mirror event is like fighting a tsi premade, they keep comin and comin!
Well true, but it would be a way to fix defense values. Atleast im bloody proposing something =|
PaxOttomana: gawd mirror event is like fighting a tsi premade, they keep comin and comin!
That is absured.....to exspect a escort to put that much power into engines would cripple its own survivabilty an would see a return of the days of STI an there cruser's owning everything (before defence rateing was fixed on ships) oh yer i see what your doing here an i am not gona let it pass
Your the only one saying that it needs to fix'd..or that its broken..........IF ITS NOT BROKE DONT BREAK IT AN SAY YOUR FIXING IT
Au contre mes ami, Thissler seems to think the same way, only abit more drastic.
PaxOttomana: gawd mirror event is like fighting a tsi premade, they keep comin and comin!
Got one Question for you 2 then do you fly escort as your main ship? or do you fly something else.....
Im a science captan and I fly a Wells and a Mobius as my main ships. I think Thissler is a tactical captain and flies usually a BoP. Oh, and im proposing a change, not a fix.
PaxOttomana: gawd mirror event is like fighting a tsi premade, they keep comin and comin!
Well its not really whats wrong with the game... whats wrong with the game (doffs and items with no fore thought put into them) will never get fixed... the game is full of TRIBBLE that doesn't work... but its intentional. So really don't let this game get you worked up... assume that PvP has been deleted from STO... because as far as Cryptic is concerned it is. Lets stop pretending and playing along like they would like us to to... I'll still come and RP in my star ship, but I don't consider anything in this game pvp anymore.
edit: Decided to show Impulse, Combat, and Hyper instead of just Impulse.
All of my guys have Elusive and 9 in Maneuvers. Here, let me drop a regular Mk I engines in them - everything else stripped.
Chel Gret:
w/Impulse
51/25 Eng Power (18.12 Impulse/21.9 Turn) - 65.3% Defense
116/100 Eng Power (34.45 Impulse/28.5 Turn) - 80% Defense
w/Combat
51/25 Eng Power (17.87 Impulse/21.9 Turn) - 64.7% Defense
116/100 Eng Power (27.67 Impulse/28.5 Turn) - 80% Defense
w/Hyper
51/25 Eng Power (18.43 Impulse/21.9 Turn) - 66.1% Defense
116/100 Eng Power (40.47 Impulse/28.5 Turn) - 80% Defense
Advanced Escort:
w/Impulse
46/25 Eng Power (18.15 Impulse/26.9 Turn) - 65.4% Defense
111/100 Eng Power (36.29 Impulse/35.5 Turn) - 80% Defense
w/Combat
46/25 Eng Power (17.89 Impulse/26.9 Turn) - 64.7% Defense
111/100 Eng Power (28.77 Impulse/35.5 Turn) - 80% Defense
w/Hyper
46/25 Eng Power (18.47 Impulse/26.9 Turn) - 66.2% Defense
111/100 Eng Power (42.96 Impulse/35.5 Turn) - 80% Defense
Mirror Star Cruiser:
w/Impuse
51/25 Eng Power (16.01 Impulse/10.6 Turn) - 50% Defense
116/100 Eng Power (29.61 Impulse/13.2 Turn) - 70% Defense
w/Combat
51/25 Eng Power (16.6 Impulse/10.6 Turn) - 51.5% Defense
116/100 Eng Power (24.77 Impulse/13.2 Turn) - 70% Defense
w/Hyper
51/25 Eng Power (15.57 Impulse/10.6 Turn) - 48.9% Defense
116/100 Eng Power (33.94 Impulse/13.2 Turn) - 70% Defense
Additional Edit Notes: Notice the difference in the Combat/Hyper for the Escort(s) vs. Cruiser? It switches. Power's the same. It's something I've been arguing for a period of time now - the whole Combat vs. Hyper engines. It's not always a case that Hyper > Combat.
I refuse to realize it has come to that! *Cryyyyy*
PaxOttomana: gawd mirror event is like fighting a tsi premade, they keep comin and comin!
An i am sayn it dosen't need to be changed your argueing that someone whos specd an geard for defence rateing is to hard to hit Would be like saying oh your wells is hard to kill cause your speced to heal (e.g.). Besides most escorts A. dont have elusive trait B. Dont run Aegies
I have tried to be optimistic for 3 years... I know we all have. I just can't do it anymore... it hasn't failed for 3 years. Cryptic takes a step forward... and a week later they take 3 back. When has that not been the case. Every patch we can think of where something good happened for pvp, same patch something else got broke... or a week later in the next patch... or the following weekend when they would drop some new item.
This game could still be one of the best balanced PvP games in the market with a total of 5-6 changes, that pretty much any group of 3-4 of the long time pvp guys could sit down and brain storm in about 30 min... however bottom line Cryptic has no intention of doing the work on there end that would be involved in implementing it.
At this point defense and all the coding for it is likely buried so deep across so many subroutines that are likely unnoted... that it would simply be a challenge for them to even adjust base defense numbers on specific ships. (come on we all know thats true)
I respect the hope you hold for things devoras your a smart player and I may disagree with you on solutions for some of the issues you are talking about, I still respect your thoughts on it though... its just sad facts though no matter who is right, or what would work better in STO... Cryptic doesn't see the value in pursuing any of it.
The irony is that my two heals and my Delta rarely go to myself anyway, because what's the point? You're an escort, you can cut damage down with resists but you're not gonna heal it off. Give it to your teammates who can keep you alive instead and you'll be golden.
vids and guides and stuff
[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
(Off-Topic) Has a point starting to think that these broken items are add'd so they can get you to keep playing........ an here we are whineing about balance when they wont nerf something if the op factor is the whole reason they are selling in the first place.... they never have an never will do something that will undermind the the bottom line.....an nothing would please me more then for them to prove me wrong
If people want their high defense, they should be required to FLY like they're evading things, not just coast along in a straight line.
There also doesn't appear to be any impact on accuracy from range, with the result that in order to score a miss against some targets, shots have to actually fly so far off course that the angle the shots are flying is physically impossible for the weapon: If your target occupies more than the 45-degree cone in front of the weapon (for DHC), it shouldn't even be possible to miss that, since there is no direction in which you could fire that weapon that does not result in a hit.
Still, I think the part about "balance being an illusion" is hard to argue against... but it was such a minor part of the post, it's kind of moot.
edit: Yeah, I went for a smoke to think about editing this another way - but like I said in the original - it's kind of moot. Balance is an illusion. The obviously broken is broken and needs to be fixed, but there are simply too many factors involved for any discussion of balance.
That being said, even though it's to a later post in the thread - I think it's hard not to say that STO is Escorts Online at the moment. I believe that should be fixed. It shouldn't be a case of going back to Cruisers Online nor should through some drunken stumbling of submitting code should it be Science Vessels Online either.
But...again, that becomes moot. The balance might only exist in picking the first ship.
If you have no ships, then there should be equal value to an Escort, Cruiser, or Science Vessel. As soon as you've picked the first ship, the values will have changed for picking the next ship.
The same would go for Tac, Sci, and Eng Captains.
All of them should have equal value when picked first...that value will obviously change as you pick the additional captains and ships.
Some will increase in value and some will decrease in value as you strive for that balanced team - and - it should be a balanced team. Going too far in one direction should leave you open in another... so it should be a case of having a balanced team. This somewhat exists in PvP...doesn't come close in PvE.
1) defense vs acc doesn't end up being that simple. +30 -40 doesn't mean 10% as far as def vs acc goes.
2) Yes escorts deserve to have higher defense then other ships... and as others math has shown you the same math applies to cruisers... which assuming similer power settings in engines by your math would be almost identical miss chances. In in truth the miss chance of a escort vs a cruiser (ASSUMING all the same buffs are up) are almost identical... the escort has less inertia and can recover from disables and such in terms of defense stat a bit quicker and this can lead to the preception that they have so much more defense rating... Truth is 90 defense vs 60 defense doesn't make all that much difference in terms of to hit rate. However the escort is likely to be able to keep there defense numbers up for longer durration... not to mention that many people pilot there cruisers in a different way. Slowing to turn ect in a cruiser will kill your defense go figure. Escorts do pivot turn yes... but they don't pay for it as badly due to the much better inertia that allows them to be at top impulse again much quicker.
Bottom line if you parse the data of an escort WITHOUT Omega or or other buffs up... vs a cruiser also with out any buffs... both just running at full speed and taking fire... the hit rate will be with in a few %. If you do the same test with them both sitting still... both will take almost every hit but the escort will still evade a small number due to escorts defense bonus.
Yes this is needed in the game for balance. We can go on about escorts doing to much dmg to justify there defense rate... HOWEVER its a defense rating... its fluid and it can be countered hard... unlike Cruisers and Sci Ships that just get passive boosts to there HP pools. Cruisers have 10-40% more hull depending on which ships your comapring and sci ships have the same in terms of shields.
Is dmg to high ? Ya probaly is... however so is healing and health pools in general.
Turning escorts into glass cannons again would solve nothing in this game... it would return us to cruisers online.. and don't think cruisers can't still put out 90% of the dps of an escort cause they can... so nothing will change... the dps players will leave there escort glass cannons and all jump in there cruiser Aluminium oxynitride cannons.... again. lmao
Accuacy is better then that. Just try useing a combat tracker you will see accuracy is much higher then the the displayed value's
That was a sleepy/caffeine-starved post. I should edit it.
The difference between the two does not equate 1:1 in regard to the chance to hit.
There's 100% base Accuracy. There's 100% base Defense. 100% base Accuracy vs. 100% base Defense = 100% Hit.
155% Accuracy vs. 190% Defense is still a 74% chance to hit. The 35% difference between the Acc and Def does not equate to a 35% chance to miss. It's only a 26% chance to miss.
Even without the Accurate trait, pts in Targeting, or Acc weapons - your base Accuracy against somebody with 90% bonus Defense is still going to leave you with around a 52.6% chance to hit.
They probably are not. Because for someone who plays from time to time and is not hardcore OPvP player: STO is Escorts Online. Buth in PUGland (PvP) and in PvE everything you can do with sci or cruiser you can do better with escort.
Trust me, I was such guy and there was HUGE difference between my effectiveness when I was playing sci or cruisers and when I sat in escort. Escort was simply better.
It changed only when I invested a lot of time into PvP (like - 99% of my in game time) when I started to notice difference and moved to cruisers and then scis. Zooming and booming escorts are still fun, but I do not think they are better then other classes. I have my issues with sci powers and eng/cruiser balance, but it like with everything the Cryptic touches.
But let me repeat once again: for common folk, that is playing PvE mostly and do PUGs mostly (and those are like most PVPlayers that are not part of OPvP) STO is escorts online.
Actually I think those times need to return. Escorts in ST are generally like Galaxy-class warp core. Look funny at it and it explodes. ST escorts are not USS Defiant with Sisco in it that are immune to everything but plot. Those are Sabres, Akiras, Defiants (Valiant) and Steamrunners that explode left and right when in combat. Escorts should have their defence and survivability severely limited. BUT they should also get similar boost to weapons power. Escorts should be gunboats/torpedo boats.
Blow the target before it starts shooting at you - the only defense available for escorts. Ships for really good pilots with offensive mindset. Not for everyone and their old granny.
Well it can never be like the show it is a game and all.
The glass cannon concept is fine and all... but I think the fact is escorts are still more fragile then a cruiser or even a sci ship.... most players are simply terrible cruiser and sci ship players.
The Tone down that some people seem to think needs to happen to defense... has NOTHING at all to do with the defense mechanic... it has to do with doffs. Doffs are pretty much at the root of everything anyone takes as a balance issue lately. I would say the fact that 8 out of 10 escort pilots have 2 Conn AP doffs to keep there omega 3s up 50% of the time is the real issue with the "undead" escort.
Also if we do go back to cruisers online... there will be no "offensive" minded players that will touch an escort... WHY ? when a cruiser can do the same amount of dmg with a ton more survivability... back in the days of Cruisers online. The games best escort players didn't fly them at all... they flew tac cruisers.
These are some of the more glaring issues I also have been experiencing.
Well explained mate.
Escorts used to be avoidance-only tanks, but they're getting to be better at resistance tanking as well, so an escort can often survive longer than a cruiser. There are exceptions of course, but when I play dps I tend to go after cruisers because they're generally easier to kill than escorts.
1) EWP getting a damage boost from +Plasma consoles really is an unintended bug IMHO. They removed the +Kinetics from boosting Gravity Well and the like and it is only a matter of time until they discover this oversight and fix is especially post Embassy.
2) Player A has 900 shields at 60% resist. He also has 20% of shots miss. His EHP becomes 2812 or it will take that much raw damage to drop a facing. IF he increases that miss chance to 25% that does not increase his EHP by a measly 5% (45) oh no. Instead it becomes 3000.
My point? The math behind the scenes needs to be evaluated and overhauled adding consistency and allowing things to scale properly. Everything else is simply a bandaid over the fundamental problems that will continue to get worse with each addition.
I disagree. Defense being tied to speed makes sense. It penalises escorts that "park" behind their target and it gives things like tractor beams a meaning.
I think the greater problem is that APO gives a significant +defense boost and with doffs one can use only APO3 for even bigger +defense. This leads to your next point.
I disagree. I propose that the +defense buff is removed. This brings escort defense values that are inflated beyond reason by APO3 back in line. Maybe also increase the global to 45s to prevent the current APO/APB chaining? (There is currently no permanent uptime on APO like you claim, it's "only" 50%.)
I think what needs to be changed is the time that the debuff lingers after getting clear of the cloud. What is it now? 30s? That's too long.