test content
Logo
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc
PvP concerns
devorasx
Member Posts: 693
New year, new possibilites and new concerns. So ive found some new "complaints" i want to put in light, and yet again i want peoples input on the matter.
Transphasic, in particular mines.
Trannie mines needs a look on. These mines do way too much damage in comparison to other mines, with the exception of tricobalts. If the crit link happens, half the huill of a cruiser is gone and is just way too powerful in light of balance, and in comparison to other mines. I would like to see either the damage value lowered or the shield penetration rate reduced.
Remove defense value tied to speed
In light of Thisslers thread regarding defense, i have to concure. Speed tied to defense should be removed as it gives escorts superiority in both defense and offense. They already deal ALOT of damage, then why the blazes is it too given the best defense value as well? That just doesnt make sense at all, and is turning STO to Escort Online. The defense value should not be removed from the game but rather given a fixed value based on ship class. This would balance out defense between ships. Actually it will make engineers in cruisers more valuable, and not sitting ducks to a tractor beaming escort taking down a cruiser in a split second, because his defense was reduced to 0 due to no speed.
Remove movement immunity buff from APO
If defense tied to speed wont be altered i would liked to see the movement buff from APO removed. Currently its possible to have permanent uptime on APO using appropiate doffs and double copy of APO. This alone offers the best defense value along with a raw damage bonus which makes escort yet again the best ship in the game, and the remainder sitting ducks. If we are looking to balance the game and the ships, escorts cant have all the goodies while the other 2 classes sit with the mediocre stuff.
Add an immunity buff to the EWP hold.
Right now its very easy to keep ships pinned down by spamming EWP in combo with the doff that makes the ship halt. And this can be chained and done over and over. To prevent this from going overboard, i would like to see an immunity buff given after a ship has been exposed to it once, like they gave to most science skills. Im aware you can use a hazard emitter to remove it, but as long as you drift the EWP AOE you will constantly reapply it until you clear it. Worse is the effect lingers on your ship after you cleared the AOE effect, prolonging the torture. Right now EWP offers a movement halt and it gives the user zone control, along with damage which goes straigh to hull. In my opinion this is just way too much benefit for one skill alone.
So please dicuss.
Transphasic, in particular mines.
Trannie mines needs a look on. These mines do way too much damage in comparison to other mines, with the exception of tricobalts. If the crit link happens, half the huill of a cruiser is gone and is just way too powerful in light of balance, and in comparison to other mines. I would like to see either the damage value lowered or the shield penetration rate reduced.
Remove defense value tied to speed
In light of Thisslers thread regarding defense, i have to concure. Speed tied to defense should be removed as it gives escorts superiority in both defense and offense. They already deal ALOT of damage, then why the blazes is it too given the best defense value as well? That just doesnt make sense at all, and is turning STO to Escort Online. The defense value should not be removed from the game but rather given a fixed value based on ship class. This would balance out defense between ships. Actually it will make engineers in cruisers more valuable, and not sitting ducks to a tractor beaming escort taking down a cruiser in a split second, because his defense was reduced to 0 due to no speed.
Remove movement immunity buff from APO
If defense tied to speed wont be altered i would liked to see the movement buff from APO removed. Currently its possible to have permanent uptime on APO using appropiate doffs and double copy of APO. This alone offers the best defense value along with a raw damage bonus which makes escort yet again the best ship in the game, and the remainder sitting ducks. If we are looking to balance the game and the ships, escorts cant have all the goodies while the other 2 classes sit with the mediocre stuff.
Add an immunity buff to the EWP hold.
Right now its very easy to keep ships pinned down by spamming EWP in combo with the doff that makes the ship halt. And this can be chained and done over and over. To prevent this from going overboard, i would like to see an immunity buff given after a ship has been exposed to it once, like they gave to most science skills. Im aware you can use a hazard emitter to remove it, but as long as you drift the EWP AOE you will constantly reapply it until you clear it. Worse is the effect lingers on your ship after you cleared the AOE effect, prolonging the torture. Right now EWP offers a movement halt and it gives the user zone control, along with damage which goes straigh to hull. In my opinion this is just way too much benefit for one skill alone.
So please dicuss.
Co-founder of The Spanish Inquisition TSI - Cause no one expects it!
PaxOttomana: gawd mirror event is like fighting a tsi premade, they keep comin and comin!
PaxOttomana: gawd mirror event is like fighting a tsi premade, they keep comin and comin!
Post edited by devorasx on
0
Comments
Wtf, since when?
vids and guides and stuff
[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
There's no need to go and add an immunity to an already expensive power.
The issue with these, imo, is the same issue that was not addressed with the Trics. It's an issue that exists with other things like EWP as well. One Crit, All Crit.
Trannies have been around for quite sometime - and - they were never complained about. Several folks espoused the use of them - but people preferred going the standard energy weapon (DHC) route.
It really wasn't until the Elite Fleet Shields bug arose that more and more folks started using Trans as part of their build (in particular, the Breen Cluster) and playing off of that One Crit, All Crit system in the game engine.
It was the case of running Rapid Trans Fore with a Cluster or two - DPB Trans Mines, Rapid, and Cluster Aft... nothing new. Nothing that was complained about. People kind of laughed at Trannie builds. Heck, the "Trannie" name for them is a derogatory name in its own right.
With more folks adding the Clusters or the Mines, it's become more prevalent - more noticeable. So that calls into question whether they're actually broken/OP - or - if it's something that people need to take into consideration defending against like anything else.
If you drop shields on somebody, other torps/mines are going to do more damage. There are quite a few things that have been worked into trying to balance them...it would be interesting to see everything laid out comparing both the torps and mines to other flavors of them.
That being said, though, it's definitely fun to add Plasma into the mix for some good hull eating fun... as well as taking the KineticProc which is 5% on torps/mines (vs 2.5% directed energy).
Yep, popping somebody with full shields is even better because of the Hyper, Omega, and the passive...
I'd say it's not so much that defense value is tied to speed - as much as it is a case of the speeds (including turn) available to certain ships. They move/turn faster/better than fighters. It's painfully illogical to have "large" ships moving in a manner one would expect from a fighter - everybody on the ship should be strapped down to a chair and there shouldn't be any objects not locked down. It's mind boggling.
However, that doesn't mean that defense shouldn't be tied to speed - rather - that the speeds/turn need to be addressed.
At the same time though, mind you, if movement gives a bonus to defense...it should also reduce accuracy. The same thing that's making you harder to hit, should be making it harder for you to hit...no?
If the Defense buff included the logical Accuracy debuff... well, then APO needs to be redesigned in general, eh?
Overall, there's a severe lack of DR/Immunity/Hardening/Resists etc in STO compared to many other games out there where you'll typically see something like:
Full Effect, Reduced Effect, Reduced Effect, Immunity.
Ships should be able to harden, either temporarily or permanently against certain CC abilities. Temporary cleanses should also provide either an extended immunity or a reduction to the effect.
CC in general in STO is all sorts of...illogical...odd...borked.
With it being a primarily PvE game, it's something that simply was never given much consideration...the NPCs don't use the abilities anywhere near as often as a player can and does - so it's literally nothing that really came up.
edit: Even if it were something like the following...
Ability I - just a cleanse.
Ability II - cleanse + temp resistance/reduced effect
Ability III - cleanse + temp immunity
Trans Mines are very much AoE weapons - whether you're talking clusters or regular mines. They will affect multiple targets if they are close enough.
Though, it's generally going to be a case of clearing pet spam or destroying groups of NPCs in PvE. Players have too many options available to them to avoid getting caught up in it.
Against pets/NPCs though, Aux Batt that GW - fire off the Fore Cluster, fly through dropping the DPB'd mines...and both the cluster/mines will damage multiple targets. As I mentioned in the other post, add some plasma to this - firing off the TS Hyper after the DPB...good pet/NPC shredding fun.
As for the crit? They have as much chance to crit as anything else - depending on modifiers and skill build. But...because of the CDs on either the mines or clusters - there's going to be fewer opportunities for them to crit. They're just not fired as often.
When did i say that? And when have I ever advocated for abilties which cant be countered? Maybe you should be very careful on putting words in other peoples mouths. I take that highly offensive.
And my tantrum as you call it, is just abilities im pondering over and have observed of late being as unblanaced as when the tric mines were called for foul play. But then again other people claimed trics are easy to deal with etc etc.
PaxOttomana: gawd mirror event is like fighting a tsi premade, they keep comin and comin!
When it comes to the defense value it easy to see that defense rises when the ship starts to move. Just open your ship sheet and look at defense at 0 speed and at full speed. The defense value shoots up like mad. Add an evasive and holy heck. Is it no wonder why escorts seems to survive so much better then other classes, by being able to flee fastest and intercept fleeing ships fastest due to inertia.
Regarding APO`s immunity buff to movement gives escorts a sole advantage. They can EASY avoid any combo involving movement debuffs with trics, EWP, trannies <insert ability here> while other classes cant. That grants escorts WAY more survivability then others by a far margin. How is this remotly fair or balanced to cruisers and science ships?
PaxOttomana: gawd mirror event is like fighting a tsi premade, they keep comin and comin!
tranny builds are popular right now, and are pretty painful. but really, the only part i would say is overpowered is a very highly buffed breen cluster torp. that is overpowered right now, all the other more piecemeal tranny damage i think is at a good level
im still not completely convinced this is necessary, because when holds do get a chance to work, it turns off the extremely good defense score, and the ability to stay out of enemy fire arks that make escorts so seemingly tanky. take that away and an escort is very fragile. APO is far to powerful a defensive tool, literally a get out of jail free card to everything. APO and PH can give hold immunity, and the placates break holds as well. its to easy for an escort not to have its defense score taken away is the problem.
i agree, more or less. though you can still only use it to its global, think its only about a 33% up time. at least it should be toned down a bit, maybe have it buff ID's instead wile its on
k, as proboly the # 1 abuser of this ability of late, i can tell you its NOT easy to truly pin someone, or purma hold them. it certainly cant be done at all to escorts, again APO laughs at EWP clouds like they arent there. HE will clear the hold too, but it wont dig you out automatically. you need to not be touching the cloud 3 or 4 tics into HE's clear or HE will stop removing the engine debuff. frankly thats balanced.
most ships can pretty easily tank the DOT, if its not a ship that can just APO their way out of it. only the most plasma tac console'd, particle gen filled, plasma energy weapon using ship can really make EWP3's damage a true danger. and only slow cruisers have that comander eng. its hard to even lay a cloud tactically with such slow moving, low maneuverability ships. the quicker ships that can slot EWP1 can use it for a hold, but its DOT is basically a non issue.
slotting all those holds have an opportunity cost in heals for them selves or the team too. these plasma and hold spammers are delicate, trust me i main them. well, taking a break from them right now actually.
Escort - Avoidance Tank.
Cruiser - Mitigation Tank.
Science Vessel - Debuff/Mitigation Tank.
The Escort avoids damage - a dodge tank, if you will.
The Cruiser soaks damage - high health/resists, if you will.
The Science...well, it's the combination of debuffing damage coming in before it comes in and resisting the damage once it arrives.
But you can't just look at the tank, because it's not just the tank. It's not just taking damage, it's also doing damage. So it's not a case of looking at the three tanks to see if they're balanced - you can't balance the three tanks against each other on tanking alone.
The Escort does more damage. So it will have less of a tank. That's less of a cumulative tank. The Cruiser does less damage. So it will have more of a tank. That's more of a cumulative tank.
The combination of avoidance and mitigation that an Escort has - should not provide it an equal defensive capability as a Cruiser. It's just a case that the reduced tank that an Escort has won't come from the same tank as a Cruiser (or a Sci).
Basically, an Escort shouldn't be able to avoid more damage than a Cruiser can soak. An Escort shouldn't even be able to avoid the same damage a Cruiser can soak. The increased offense means reduced defense... the increase in offense is noticeable - the decrease in defense should be noticeable as well.
To an extent, I believe that's what some folks are pointing out as a problem - they're not seeing that...
This came up in that other thread, in a sense, about how things are on/off. There's no happy medium, eh?
Either the Escort's flitting around giving you the finger or they're hitting the respawn and giving you the finger...lol.
It almost cries out for the middleground...exactly the middleground, no?
It shouldn't be able to go as high as it can nor should should it be able to go as low as it goes. Chop off the two extremes and see what comes of it...
Transphasics are fine.... breen cluster is BS... but thats hardly the same thing as those mines don't even obey regular phasic rules. That item needs to have a going over.... they won't ever be able to fix crit linking on it... but I understand they can at least make it so it barely crits when it does.
Speed and defense is NEEDED in this game or it becomes Cruisers on line again. Speed bonuses to defense where required to balance this game out... you have a short memory if you don't remember the times when escorts went pop so fast that the only people that flew them where people that had a team with 3 healers on it. lol
As far as EWP goes... I think its fine as it is ... whats not fine is the fact that this games junky gfx engine doesn't render it properly most of the time... and the solution to that is easy and they will never do it... KILL all the darn spam. EWP works fine when you are on a map with next to no spam... its easy to avoid... 9 times out of 10 people don't know its there till they stop. SPAM is the real issue with ewp.
As for OMEGA... yes it is now possible to have it up 50% of the time with one copy... thank doffs for that... of course if you think cryptic is going to do ANYTHING about doffs your mistaken.
Here is the real honest solution for PvP in this game...
GIVE it up.
Competitive PvP in this game can never happen... its far to gone for that.
Do what I do log in do some PvE... enjoy looking at a Make Belief Starship... and when you get the itch to PvP... go log into some other developers game.
The big problem more lies with the crit bug for the mines. Until that is fixed, they will seem OP because people will use that as often as they can. I know, I love it when they crit on my B'rel.
What might be a good idea, is to treat DPB with Transphasic mines, like TS treats Transphasic Torpedoes: Reduce the bleedthrough.
For the torps, that goes from 40%, to 20%. For the mines, you could reduce it from like 80%, to no lower than 60% (because any lower would feel like too much of a hit due to all their other costs). So that way, if you just drop the mines, they do as they do now. But if you do a dispersal pattern, you have to deal with the cost of less bleedthrough.
Their damage would NOT be lowered though. They do little enough damage already. Going with that, I also feel the using HY with Transphasic Torpedoes should increase their bleedthrough, to no more than 60%.
^^ Has a point besides defence rateing on escorts is caped.....if it really went on speed they would have 100% defence rateing....i hit the defence cap at 52/30 power in engine's...tho the moment i turn i lose up 30% of that defence rateing....as for omega constantly up is just a plain lie/dont know what your talking about/bug i am currently unaware of.......if you can't hit a escort your weps/spec is not speced right......even with the Omega 3 +40% defencec rateing (5sec duration) full spec in targeting an accx3 weps you can still hit an escourt 80% of the time......thats a an escort with a max of (diminishing returns) 104% defence rateing still getting hit.......stop complaining an get out of your cruiser get in a escort an see for your self.....all these stats were taken from elusive speced tactical officer with a Jemi Bug ship with 9 points in starship maneuvers......
no, no middle ground. on and off is good, its just to hard to turn off right now. escorts are on off ships, its spike or nothing, and it should be huge defense or no defense. APO being to good at escaping things, and buffing the defense score, and letting you fly really fast out of harms way is a stronger defense then the strongest of shield resists. the escort's damage dealing should come with the price that they are a tin can when they lose all that defense
You get caught with your omega's on cd an have a tractor beam on you or get engine proced you are a tin can.........
Odd. Isnt the whole point with the defence linked to speed that its based on avoidance? And that as far as i know goes for all ships and not nessecary for one. The defence value represents to my knowledge, and correct me if im wrong, that the higher defence value you have the lower the chance you`ll be hit. And thats regardless of the magnitude of the incoming hit. Now if this is true, then escorts will still have way more advantage then other ships regardless if they can soak less raw dmg than cruisers, due to the fact they can still slot some abilties to compensate. And mobility is still on their side as they can dictate combat tempo and when to disengage/intercept. Other ships cant do as good.
PaxOttomana: gawd mirror event is like fighting a tsi premade, they keep comin and comin!
[Combat (Self)] Your Mine Explosion dealt 346 (1609) shield damage to Centaur Class Frigate.
[Combat (Self)] Your Mine Explosion dealt 331 (1542) shield damage to Centaur Class Frigate.
[Combat (Self)] Your Mine Explosion dealt 354 (1645) shield damage to Centaur Class Frigate.
[Combat (Self)] Your Mine Explosion dealt 355 (1650) shield damage to Centaur Class Frigate.
[Combat (Self)] Your Mine Explosion dealt 279 (1298) shield damage to Centaur Class Frigate.
[Combat (Self)] Your Mine Explosion dealt 274 (1274) shield damage to Centaur Class Frigate.
[Combat (Self)] Your Mine Explosion dealt 355 (1653) shield damage to Centaur Class Frigate.
[Combat (Self)] Your Mine Explosion dealt 351 (1632) shield damage to Centaur Class Frigate.
[Combat (Self)] Your Mine Explosion dealt 402 (1869) shield damage to Centaur Class Frigate.
[Combat (Self)] Your Mine Explosion dealt 356 (1657) shield damage to Centaur Class Frigate.
[Combat (Self)] Your Mine Explosion deals 1370 (2979) Kinetic Damage to Centaur Class Frigate.
[Combat (Self)] Your Mine Explosion deals 1313 (2855) Kinetic Damage to Centaur Class Frigate.
[Combat (Self)] Your Mine Explosion deals 1401 (3047) Kinetic Damage to Centaur Class Frigate.
[Combat (Self)] Your Mine Explosion deals 1405 (3055) Kinetic Damage to Centaur Class Frigate.
[Combat (Self)] Your Mine Explosion deals 1105 (2403) Kinetic Damage to Centaur Class Frigate.
[Combat (Self)] Your Mine Explosion deals 1085 (2359) Kinetic Damage to Centaur Class Frigate.
[Combat (Self)] Your Mine Explosion deals 1408 (3061) Kinetic Damage to Centaur Class Frigate.
[Combat (Self)] Your Mine Explosion deals 1390 (3022) Kinetic Damage to Centaur Class Frigate.
[Combat (Self)] Your Mine Explosion deals 1592 (3461) Kinetic Damage to Centaur Class Frigate.
[Combat (Self)] Your Mine Explosion deals 1412 (3069) Kinetic Damage to Centaur Class Frigate.
[Combat (Self)] Your Mine Explosion dealt 334 (1554) shield damage to Miranda Class Frigate.
[Combat (Self)] Your Mine Explosion dealt 317 (1473) shield damage to Miranda Class Frigate.
[Combat (Self)] Your Mine Explosion dealt 383 (1782) shield damage to Miranda Class Frigate.
[Combat (Self)] Your Mine Explosion dealt 341 (1584) shield damage to Miranda Class Frigate.
[Combat (Self)] Your Mine Explosion dealt 270 (1256) shield damage to Miranda Class Frigate.
[Combat (Self)] Your Mine Explosion dealt 384 (1784) shield damage to Miranda Class Frigate.
[Combat (Self)] Your Mine Explosion dealt 362 (1684) shield damage to Miranda Class Frigate.
[Combat (Self)] Your Mine Explosion dealt 340 (1581) shield damage to Miranda Class Frigate.
[Combat (Self)] Your Mine Explosion dealt 324 (1506) shield damage to Miranda Class Frigate.
[Combat (Self)] Your Mine Explosion dealt 289 (1344) shield damage to Miranda Class Frigate.
[Combat (Self)] Your Mine Explosion deals 1324 (2878) Kinetic Damage to Miranda Class Frigate.
[Combat (Self)] Your Mine Explosion deals 1255 (2727) Kinetic Damage to Miranda Class Frigate.
[Combat (Self)] Your Mine Explosion deals 1518 (3301) Kinetic Damage to Miranda Class Frigate.
[Combat (Self)] Your Mine Explosion deals 1349 (2933) Kinetic Damage to Miranda Class Frigate.
[Combat (Self)] Your Mine Explosion deals 1070 (2326) Kinetic Damage to Miranda Class Frigate.
[Combat (Self)] Your Mine Explosion deals 1519 (3303) Kinetic Damage to Miranda Class Frigate.
[Combat (Self)] Your Mine Explosion deals 1435 (3119) Kinetic Damage to Miranda Class Frigate.
[Combat (Self)] Your Mine Explosion deals 1346 (2927) Kinetic Damage to Miranda Class Frigate.
[Combat (Self)] Your Mine Explosion deals 1283 (2789) Kinetic Damage to Miranda Class Frigate.
[Combat (Self)] Your Mine Explosion deals 1145 (2489) Kinetic Damage to Miranda Class Frigate.
One Breen Cluster torpedo. No buffs or anything. Just a quick test in Kahless Expanse from the start of Empire Defense.
10 mines from a cluster. 2 targets damaged. AoE.
I could go grab three of them, fly around until they were in position - you'd see three sets of 10 mines hitting. AoE.
If the Danubes/Peregrines could survive the GW - I could grab the seven of them. You'd see seven sets of 10 mines hitting. AoE.
No, the regular Trans mines do not AoE. The mines from the Breen Cluster do.
RSP, and then wait for engines to come back up, then evasive+ engine battery and youre 20km+ from any hostiles. Then simply heal up, load up a new alpha and go pew. Rinse and repeat.
PaxOttomana: gawd mirror event is like fighting a tsi premade, they keep comin and comin!
Agreed on the first part, but when an escort wants to avoid damage alltogether it doesnt matter at first if its firing at anything. The first thing heals are in place and alpha is up, a swift strafe run against a slow target makes for as perfect explosion. Hence it has manage to achieve what it wants; first to avoid dmg alltogether and with the same speed momentum, charge in a straight line and shoot, and next disengage with high speed so the victim cant hit back.
PaxOttomana: gawd mirror event is like fighting a tsi premade, they keep comin and comin!
The moment he RSPs, he's dogfood for the Scis and the Escorts on the enemy team without any support.
And if the other team overheals, that plays into their hand as well.
Still, the point is that the ship survived to do more damage, and the opposing team failed to destroy the ship!
PaxOttomana: gawd mirror event is like fighting a tsi premade, they keep comin and comin!
My Fed Engineer... (Aegis set) @ Full Impulse (everything else stripped from the ships)
Chel Grett:
51/25 Eng Power
90% Bonus Defense, 24.61 Impulse, 22.9 Turn
Advanced Escort:
46/25 Eng Power
90% Bonus Defense, 24.66 Impulse, 28.2 Turn
111/100 Eng Power
90% Bonus Defense, 50.92 Impulse, 36.8 Turn
Mirror Star Cruiser:
51/25 Eng Power
73.9% Bonus Defense, 21.55 Impulse, 11.0 Turn
116/100 Eng Power
80% Bonus Defense, 41.24 Impulse, 13.6 Turn
edit: Should mention he's got Elusive and 9 in Maneuvers.
PaxOttomana: gawd mirror event is like fighting a tsi premade, they keep comin and comin!
So fairly similar values, but fair enough. Let me ask you this then: Which department of science, engineering and tactial hs the ability to gain defense, and likewise which department has the ability to counter overall defense value? Count out evasive maneuver now.
PaxOttomana: gawd mirror event is like fighting a tsi premade, they keep comin and comin!
Defense shouldn't be linked to speed, and most diffently no negative hit to defense for not moving. I think defense should be the sum of skill point investment, traits, and captain/boff abilities.
Escorts need to be able to turn to do their damage, they need ways to break or be immune to holds.
By letting escorts zip around freely, and by not penalizing non escorts for getting stuck in the you know what, everybody can have more fun and less rage.
It allready is.......you drop enough engine power, down go's the defence rateing.....start to wonder if you really that stupid or just trolling....(dont have the Fry pic with that on it)
So your saying the ship class that has access at best (not counting stupid Cryptic abomination releases with lt cmd sci and engi slots)... tier 2 heals... should not have some type of defensive skill ? (not to mention that crusiers and sci ships both have abomination versions that would allow for omega delta rolls as well)
Yes escort players are using delta and omega to devise fairly tanky setup to make up for the fact that they can't slot 20k shield heals and 20k hull heals... like those poor cruiser and sci ships.
If you have any issue with escort defense roles it goes to Doffs and nothing more.... should we have doffs that allow us to keep omega up 50% of the time and delta up the other 50% ? mabey not... but look to the doff that allows it not the ship class. lol
Im talking tieing defense soley to engine power, and not based on speed and turn rate. E.g at 125 power def rating is at 90%, at 25 engine power def rating is down to 20 etc.
PaxOttomana: gawd mirror event is like fighting a tsi premade, they keep comin and comin!