True, but you won't get those numbers until the target's shields go down, and that just won't happen with torpedoes alone.
The cutting beam isn't just an 800DPS turret replacement -- instead, it is used as a combo-primer:
1) Cutting Beam + Borg Console = Omega Weapon Amplifier to help breach shields faster
2) Cutting Beam + Borg Tractor = (800 + 2000) kinetic damage per second, or 5600DPS per second for 10 seconds. This translates to 56,000 reliable, sustained damage vs. exposed hulls.
3) Torpedoes can still be fired in addition to the Cutting Beam and Borg Tractor, thereby increasing total DPS
4) The Cutting Beam can take an aft weapon slot, so it does not compete with a forward torpedo launcher.
I have yet to see another torpedo based ship that isn't running a cutting beam out-DPS me in Gorn Mine Field vs. the last boss. The combination of Cutting Beam + Borg Tractor + HYT3 Hyper-plasmas usually gets me 1st place.
This may seem a lil odd but 800+2000=2800dps not 5600 and as for that one awesome use every 4 mins i can kill more in that time without it than i could with the set and not suffer weaker shield strength having to use the borg set.
This may seem a lil odd but 800+200=2800dps not 5600 and as for that one awesome use every 4 mins i can kill more in that time without it than i could with the set and not suffer weaker shield strength having to use the borg set.
Kinetic damage scores double listed damage against exposed hulls. Therefore, 2000 + 800 = 2800 kinetic damage * 2 vs. exposed hull = 5600 net dps. I hope this clears it up for you.
EDIT: The Borg set has more combat survivability than most sets because of its auto hull and shield regen procs. Borg set shields have lower max shield capacity but double the regen rate of most other shields, allowing users to stay in combat for longer periods of time. They can't take as big an alpha-strike as MACO, but they recover more quickly afterwards.
This may seem a lil odd but 800+200=2800dps not 5600 and as for that one awesome use every 4 mins i can kill more in that time without it than i could with the set and not suffer weaker shield strength having to use the borg set.
I think you down it too easily.
I concur shield capacity is a problem, but we're talking an extra 2000DPS with the tractor beam. In my case, thats like adding two beam banks.
I'd still suggest it if you're in a sci ship and have the consoles for it.
Well let's do a little math, bor shield proc is way low around 2-5% regen is high but like all shields takes 6secs per which in combat isn't TRIBBLE and for the 2.5% borg omega amp which lasts 3 secs unless it occurs exactly atm your weapons are still firing than during the next cycle which takes anywhere from 1-3secs for most energy weapons and 3-10secs for torpedos you would have roughly 0-2secs tops to make it usuable and for its 1% for 1sec dmg protection that can only occur no more than every 10 or 30secs is like saying hey u got a 1% chance every 10secs of it being helpful in anyway. Some may like the stuff, as for me I find it to be garbage and a bunch of smoke n mirrors for it's usefullness.
Well let's do a little math, bor shield proc is way low around 2-5% regen is high but like all shields takes 6secs per which in combat isn't TRIBBLE and for the 2.5% borg omega amp which lasts 3 secs unless it occurs exactly atm your weapons are still firing than during the next cycle which takes anywhere from 1-3secs for most energy weapons and 3-10secs for torpedos you would have roughly 0-2secs tops to make it usuable and for its 1% for 1sec dmg protection that can only occur no more than every 10 or 30secs is like saying hey u got a 1% chance every 10secs of it being helpful in anyway. Some may like the stuff, as for me I find it to be garbage and a bunch of smoke n mirrors for it's usefullness.
You are forgetting that proc trigger rates are directly multiplied by the triggering event frequency (taking damage while any shield face is below 20% in the case of borg shields, or firing lots of weapons while using CSV, CRF, etc). This makes procs activation rates much higher than relying on base weapon firing cycles.
I have already tested Mk XII MACO vs. Mk XII Omega vs. Mk XII Borg, and the last set still comes out ahead when combined with the Omega space weapon set. I consistently get 1st place in all fleet actions using this set-up since it sports the highest sustained DPS with little damage fallout due to range or firing time length.
What Mk XII sets have you tested so far? EDIT: Or better yet, what Romulan + Omega rep tier level have you gotten to at this time? I'm curious if you've actually used any of the new equipment being mentioned in this thread.
Well let's do a little math, bor shield proc is way low around 2-5% regen is high but like all shields takes 6secs per which in combat isn't TRIBBLE and for the 2.5% borg omega amp which lasts 3 secs unless it occurs exactly atm your weapons are still firing than during the next cycle which takes anywhere from 1-3secs for most energy weapons and 3-10secs for torpedos you would have roughly 0-2secs tops to make it usuable and for its 1% for 1sec dmg protection that can only occur no more than every 10 or 30secs is like saying hey u got a 1% chance every 10secs of it being helpful in anyway. Some may like the stuff, as for me I find it to be garbage and a bunch of smoke n mirrors for it's usefullness.
Borg Shield procs all the time, trust me. If it doesn't proc it is on cooldown.
Shields regen every 3 seconds in combat, yes I know what the UI says it lies.
Torpedo cooldown can be that low with projectile doffs
You do make a good point about omega console set proc, does it effect the current firing cycle? I do not know.
BTW being an energy weapon it is affected by weapons power.
Also it get a rather nice plasma proc if you use one of the romulan plasma science consoles.
As a side not and mostly un related have you tried the new nadeon detonator out with some tricoballt torps?
If you haven't I suggest using it against multiple targets. and note that if you fire a shcokwave tricobalt your standard tricobalt goes on a torpedo global cooldown rather than a 1 minute cool down.
As a time traveller, Am I supposed to pack underwear or underwhen?
Not everything you see on the internet is true - Abraham Lincoln
You are forgetting that proc trigger rates are directly multiplied by the triggering event frequency (taking damage while any shield face is below 20% in the case of borg shields, or firing lots of weapons while using CSV, CRF, etc). This makes procs activation rates much higher than relying on base weapon firing cycles.
I have already tested Mk XII MACO vs. Mk XII Omega vs. Mk XII Borg, and the last set still comes out ahead when combined with the Omega space weapon set. I consistently get 1st place in all fleet actions using this set-up since it sports the highest sustained DPS with little damage fallout due to range or firing time length.
What Mk XII sets have you tested so far? EDIT: Or better yet, what Romulan + Omega rep tier level have you gotten to at this time? I'm curious if you've actually used any of the new equipment being mentioned in this thread.
What you are saying makes no sense and as tested in game thru visual dmg and in combat logs shows no proof of what you speak about proc trigger rates having any multiplying affect nor is it mentioned in any way in game information especially concerning this so called 20% factor if you yourself cannot show any reasonable proof than don't comment that i should as well.
What you are saying makes no sense and as tested in game thru visual dmg and in combat logs shows no proof of what you speak about proc trigger rates having any multiplying affect nor is it mentioned in any way in game information especially concerning this so called 20% factor if you yourself cannot show any reasonable proof than don't comment that i should as well.
I see you are not familiar with basic probability rates. I'll try to simplify it for you in the example below:
Let's say I am using a full borg set, and one of my shields is below 20%, thereby meeting the trigger condition to activate. If I'm only hit with 1 shot, then the base chance of the auto-regenerative shield proc activating is 2%. What do you think happens when I get hit by 10 shot? 20 shots? 100 shots? Do you think the odds of the proc activating remain at 2% no matter how many shots hit? The answer is no, since every time I get hit, STO checks to see if the auto-regen proc activates. So the more hits occur, the higher the chances of proc activation in the given combat time frame.
Combat logs only show damage dealt, not listing actual percentages of proc triggers, so you're looking for proof in the wrong place.
You didn't answer my question from the last post: What Romulan and Omega Tier rep have you gotten to so far, and have you crafted any of the gear being discussed in this thread? I'm T5 for both, so I've tested everything first hand.
Do you think the odds of the proc activating remain at 2% no matter how many shots hit?
As a matter of fact, they do. The difference is, when you increase the number of rolls you increase the chance that one of those rolls will fall into the 2% range. The end result is the same: the proc goes off more often when taking more fire. Don't mistake that for some sort of scaling probability however.
My only knowledge of the cutting beam has basically come from this thread, but I will say that when a weapon creates so much decent back and forth discussion about its merits, it is well designed.
As a matter of fact, they do. The difference is, when you increase the number of rolls you increase the chance that one of those rolls will fall into the 2% range. The end result is the same: the proc goes off more often when taking more fire. Don't mistake that for some sort of scaling probability however.
Increasing the number of rolls does raise the total probability above the original 2% because any one or more successful proc checks for the entire shot group triggers the proc. Yes, that total probability increases with the total number of attempts, so yes, it is indeed scaling based on the number of rolls checked.
The above is the same as a simple coin flip game -- heads = win, tails = lose. If you flip the coin once, your odds of winning are simply 1 in 2, or 50%. What happens when you flip the coin twice or 3 times with any head being a win for the whole set? At 2 coin flips, odds of getting any head is 75%, and at 3 coin flips it should be 87.5%. It's more of a log curve than a true multiplier since you'll never get to 100%.
If proc chance is 2%, and you get hit by 10 shots, then the chances of proc triggering is 18.29%. If hit by 20 shots, chances rise to 33.23%, and so forth.
I see you are not familiar with basic probability rates. I'll try to simplify it for you in the example below:
Let's say I am using a full borg set, and one of my shields is below 20%, thereby meeting the trigger condition to activate. If I'm only hit with 1 shot, then the base chance of the auto-regenerative shield proc activating is 2%. What do you think happens when I get hit by 10 shot? 20 shots? 100 shots? Do you think the odds of the proc activating remain at 2% no matter how many shots hit? The answer is no, since every time I get hit, STO checks to see if the auto-regen proc activates. So the more hits occur, the higher the chances of proc activation in the given combat time frame.
Combat logs only show damage dealt, not listing actual percentages of proc triggers, so you're looking for proof in the wrong place.
You didn't answer my question from the last post: What Romulan and Omega Tier rep have you gotten to so far, and have you crafted any of the gear being discussed in this thread? I'm T5 for both, so I've tested everything first hand.
Funny unless you are one of the game designers you really don't know that for sure, each hit scored could in fact have the same 2% chance rolled each time, also i wasn't refering to the borg shield regen capability anyways, i was refering to the omega weapon amp at 2.5% proc for 3secs along with the 3pc 1% 99%dmg protection for 1 sec every 10secs max it can occur.
Funny unless you are one of the game designers you really don't know that for sure, each hit scored could in fact have the same 2% chance rolled each time, also i wasn't refering to the borg shield regen capability anyways, i was refering to the omega weapon amp at 2.5% proc for 3secs along with the 3pc 1% 99%dmg protection for 1 sec every 10secs max it can occur.
Now you're just speculating, because I actually tested proc mechanics earlier last year and found that each shot is checked for procs. This was confirmed with Tetryon Glider -- it is a proc with a 100% base chance to trigger. I fired at a stationary target at 9.99km and observed shield drain on the target's shield facing away from my ship, once per cannon bolt hit.
Omega Weapon Amplifier follows the same proc rules, having a 2.5% per shot. Cannons shoot 4x per firing cycle, while DHC's shoot twice. At 2.5% proc chance per shot, that gives Turrets, Single Cannons, and Dual Cannons a base 9.6% chance to proc per volley (DHC's have 4.9% with only 2 shots per firing volley). Since CRF and CSV double volley speeds, these percentages rise to 18.33% (or 9.6% for DHC's). This is why people notice Omega Weapon Amplifier stacks, because its trigger rate is high enough that you can get it to proc multiple times in 3 seconds since it has no proc cooldown.
EDIT: The above are just probabilities for just one cannon or DHC. My breen ship runs 5 cannons (2 DHC's + 3 Turrets), so the odds of Omega Weapon Amplifier activating is 9.6% + 26.2% = 35.8% without CSV/CRF, and 18.33% + 45.53% = 63.85% with CSV or CRF active. Those are some darn good proc percentages!
I agree that the Omega Deflection 3-set proc is not worth while in its current form (2 second protection with 30 seconds cooldown = near-worthless). However, none of the Omega space weapon set items are underperformers -- each Omega item work well if used in the correct build.
If you have any more questions, I'll be happy to answer them, but please try to keep it civil.
No one has argued this point. If you think they have, then you're not understanding probability and what they're saying.
Exactly! Each shot always remains at 2.5% constant proc activation chance, but when multiple 2.5% are checked for proc-activation as a collective group, then total percentage chance of a proc activating go well above the original 2.5%. Unfortunately the mathematical proofs covering these calculations are usually beyond the scope of those who have not taken accredited statistics courses.
Exactly! Each shot always remains at 2.5% constant proc activation chance, but when multiple 2.5% are checked for proc-activation as a collective group, then total percentage chance of a proc activating go well above the original 2.5%. Unfortunately the mathematical proofs covering these calculations are usually beyond the scope of those who have not taken accredited statistics courses.
So everyone's a game designer here i see, oh wait u didn't design this game and therefore have no concept of what number equations the program instills..... when u can show some solid proff that otherwise proves you absolutely correct than you can add your smart remarks. Yes common sense would tell you that more shots would equal increased percentages, but even with a general rule of thumb a 2.5% chance would indicate that for every 100 shots every 2 1/2 would proc and if that were the case having more weapons firing simply just goes towards that 100 shot total bringing you that much closer to the 2.5% and not really adding to a higher potential proc%
So everyone's a game designer here i see, oh wait u didn't design this game and therefore have no concept of what number equations the program instills..... when u can show some solid proff that otherwise proves you absolutely correct than you can add your smart remarks. Yes common sense would tell you that more shots would equal increased percentages, but even with a general rule of thumb a 2.5% chance would indicate that for every 100 shots every 2 1/2 would proc and if that were the case having more weapons firing simply just goes towards that 100 shot total bringing you that much closer to the 2.5% and not really adding to a higher potential proc%
Absolutely incorrect shadowwraith77... your last (snide) response demonstrates that you do not understand the proof provided by the in-game experimental results nor the math behind the numbers.
EDIT: Here is a recap of the proof provided so far...
1) FACT - Weapon Procs are checked with every weapon hit (proof = Tetryon Glider experiment; all shield facings drained 4x with 4 cannon hits, once per hit, since Tetryon Glider procs 100% of the time). Any player can verify this 1st hand
2) FACT - Proc rates are stated in weapon description, typically 2.5% for standard weapons (phaser, polaron, etc).
3) Based on #1 and #2 above, if a weapon with 2.5% proc hits 4x, then each of the hits is checked for the 2.5% chance to proc
4) FACT - The Binomial Rule of Stats / Probabilities covers situations where success rate is constant (2.5% in the case of procs), the result can only be a success or fail (proc or no-proc), and the number of successes required = any constant <= total number of trials (only 1 proc success needed in this case). I linked a binomial formula calculator here to help folks see how proc percentages scale up with number of hits scored: http://www.stattrek.com/online-calculator/binomial.aspx
Here is the binomial formula used to derive the previous total probabilities:
x: The number of successes that result from the binomial experiment.
n: The number of trials in the binomial experiment.
P: The probability of success on an individual trial.
Q: The probability of failure on an individual trial. (This is equal to 1 - P.)
b(x; n, P): Binomial probability - the probability that an n-trial binomial experiment results in exactly x successes, when the probability of success on an individual trial is P.
nCr: The number of combinations of n things, taken r at a time.
I thought I simplified these concept sufficiently with the coin-flip game example...
The above is the same as a simple coin flip game -- heads = win, tails = lose. If you flip the coin once, your odds of winning are simply 1 in 2, or 50%. What happens when you flip the coin twice or 3 times with any head being a win for the whole set? At 2 coin flips, odds of getting any head is 75%, and at 3 coin flips it should be 87.5%. It's more of a log curve than a true multiplier since you'll never get to 100%.
This has got to be the most revealing quote so far... you have yet to write ANY mathematical equations in this thread as proof supporting your position. The "you're not a dev" argument holds little credibility when players can easily test how the game behaves just by playing it.
Sense is not common, and math doesn't lie.
www.stattrek.com has the full details... feel free to check out that web site if you want to learn more.
Hmm, apples to apples the cutting beam does less DPS than a beam array. (211 for the cutter vs 255 for the array on tooltip or 763/843 from parser.)
Tested in a foundry mission with unshielded mirror Typhoon battleships that don't do annoying things like use powers or move or shoot back, just sitting and firing each weapon individually without using any powers or attack patterns and whatnot. The omega proc seemed to appear at least a few times each minute which was nice but I haven't had a good look at how well that helps me in combat since I only just got the cutting beam.
I tried it out in combat in one borg red alert and it seemed to dispatch those unshielded annoying regen probes very nicely. I'll have to play with it more to see if I feel like it is more of a help than a hindrance to my overall damage output, especially vs shielded targets over time.
That borg tractor beam combo adds a sweet burst damage but man the cooldown is too long, otherwise I might use the full 3-piece set instead of 2+maco in situations other than starbase blockade.
Nitpicking is a time-honored tradition of science fiction. Asking your readers not to worry about the "little things" is like asking a dog not to sniff at people's crotches. If there's something that appears to violate natural laws, then you can expect someone's going to point it out. That's just the way things are.
Hmm, apples to apples the cutting beam does less DPS than a beam array. (211 for the cutter vs 255 for the array on tooltip or 763/843 from parser.)
Tested in a foundry mission with unshielded mirror Typhoon battleships that don't do annoying things like use powers or move or shoot back, just sitting and firing each weapon individually without using any powers or attack patterns and whatnot. The omega proc seemed to appear at least a few times each minute which was nice but I haven't had a good look at how well that helps me in combat since I only just got the cutting beam.
I tried it out in combat in one borg red alert and it seemed to dispatch those unshielded annoying regen probes very nicely. I'll have to play with it more to see if I feel like it is more of a help than a hindrance to my overall damage output, especially vs shielded targets over time.
That borg tractor beam combo adds a sweet burst damage but man the cooldown is too long, otherwise I might use the full 3-piece set instead of 2+maco in situations other than starbase blockade.
Now here is someone who probably did some true testing, the proc rate on the omega amp is no better than a phaser knocking out a sub system same 2.5% test a phaser against something and see how many sub knockouts you achieve and you wind up with the same results for omega amp which won't be a whole lot of times in a single run of an stf completion in a timely manner......meaning no prolonged run do to endless respawns.
Now here is someone who probably did some true testing, the proc rate on the omega amp is no better than a phaser knocking out a sub system same 2.5% test a phaser against something and see how many sub knockouts you achieve and you wind up with the same results for omega amp which won't be a whole lot of times in a single run of an stf completion in a timely manner......meaning no prolonged run do to endless respawns.
Seriously, at this point you're just trolling... No where in his post did he mention any proc rate experiments (he just noticed that procs activated occasionally -- no numbers, no time frames, no viewable data, no analysis). There's no need to make wild conclusions based on imaginary data.
Funny unless you are one of the game designers you really don't know that for sure, each hit scored could in fact have the same 2% chance rolled each time, also i wasn't refering to the borg shield regen capability anyways, i was refering to the omega weapon amp at 2.5% proc for 3secs along with the 3pc 1% 99%dmg protection for 1 sec every 10secs max it can occur.
Increasing the number of rolls does raise the total probability above the original 2% because any one or more successful proc checks for the entire shot group triggers the proc. Yes, that total probability increases with the total number of attempts, so yes, it is indeed scaling based on the number of rolls checked.
The above is the same as a simple coin flip game -- heads = win, tails = lose. If you flip the coin once, your odds of winning are simply 1 in 2, or 50%. What happens when you flip the coin twice or 3 times with any head being a win for the whole set? At 2 coin flips, odds of getting any head is 75%, and at 3 coin flips it should be 87.5%. It's more of a log curve than a true multiplier since you'll never get to 100%.
You've made a fallacious assumption: winning a roll once has no effect on the chance of winning again. It's a per damage tic proc, not a per cycle proc (unlike weapon type procs which are per cycle and not per tick). This is why cannon boats are noticing a significantly higher application of the Weapon Amplifier than beam boats.
None of the above changes the fact that the probability of the proc occurring is still 2% per shot. You're confusing two very different statistical concepts.
You've made a fallacious assumption: winning a roll once has no effect on the chance of winning again. It's a per damage tic proc, not a per cycle proc (unlike weapon type procs which are per cycle and not per tick). This is why cannon boats are noticing a significantly higher application of the Weapon Amplifier than beam boats.
None of the above changes the fact that the probability of the proc occurring is still 2% per shot. You're confusing two very different statistical concepts.
That's not what he is saying, he even provided the formula which clearly show he is using a fixed probability for the individual rolls, but that it is the net probability of receiving at least one proc that increases with number of rolls.
_________________________ TRIBBLE | -Show Me Your Critz- Svarog | Veles | et al.
You've made a fallacious assumption: winning a roll once has no effect on the chance of winning again. It's a per damage tic proc, not a per cycle proc (unlike weapon type procs which are per cycle and not per tick). This is why cannon boats are noticing a significantly higher application of the Weapon Amplifier than beam boats.
None of the above changes the fact that the probability of the proc occurring is still 2% per shot. You're confusing two very different statistical concepts.
I would agree with you if the Weapon Amplifier proc has a listed cooldown that blocked other proc activations after each success, but as of this current patch it has none. This is why Omega Weapon Amplifier can stack on multiple success rolls. Also, Omega Weapon Amplifier procs at 2.5% chance, not 2%.
EDIT: Please note Proof Fact #1 here - http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=7390771&postcount=49
... this is where I state that procs are evaluated per hit, not per firing cycle. Since cannons hit 4x per firing cycle, the 2.5% chance to proc is checked four times. If procs were checked only once per firing cycle, then Tetryon Glider would have proc'd only once instead of the observed 4x during that test.
If prior trial successes do influence future rolls for any STO proc when no proc cooldown is present, then what in-game proc example can you provide?
That's not what he is saying, he even provided the formula which clearly show he is using a fixed probability for the individual rolls, but that it is the net probability of receiving at least one proc that increases with number of rolls.
He's running with the assumption that if one tic from a set procs, than somehow it counts as a success for the whole set, and using that math as a way to backup his claim that the more you shoot the higher the base odds of the proc happening.
I would agree with you if the Weapon Amplifier proc has a listed cooldown that blocked other proc activations after each success, but as of this current patch it has none. This is why Omega Weapon Amplifier can stack on multiple success rolls. Also, Omega Weapon Amplifier procs at 2.5% chance, not 2%.
EDIT: Please note Proof Fact #1 here - http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=7390771&postcount=49
... this is where I state that procs are evaluated per hit, not per firing cycle. Since cannons hit 4x per firing cycle, the 2.5% chance to proc is checked four times. If procs were checked only once per firing cycle, then Tetryon Glider would have proc'd only once instead of the observed 4x during that test.
If prior trial successes do influence future rolls for any STO proc when no proc cooldown is present, then what in-game proc example can you provide?
Did you actually read what I posted? You're confusing the fact that more shots = more procs with the idea that more procs = higher base activation percentage. Buying more lottery tickets increases the chance of you winning, but it doesn't change the odds of any individual ticket being a winner when you buy in bulk, which is the point you've been trying to defend.
He's running with the assumption that if one tic from a set procs, than somehow it counts as a success for the whole set, and using that math as a way to backup his claim that the more you shoot the higher the base odds of the proc happening.
Did you actually read what I posted? You're confusing the fact that more shots = more procs with the idea that more procs = higher base activation percentage. Buying more lottery tickets increases the chance of you winning, but it doesn't change the odds of any individual ticket being a winner when you buy in bulk, which is the point you've been trying to defend.
Exactly! Each shot always remains at 2.5% constant proc activation chance, but when multiple 2.5% are checked for proc-activation as a collective group, then total percentage chance of a proc activating go well above the original 2.5%.
...<SNIP>...
I even provided the statistical formula used to derive exact probabilities. If I did make an error, then the numbers should not be confirming what I've stated.
That 2% was referencing Borg Hull Auto-Regen proc in the example given, not the Omega Weapon Proc. Omega Weapon Amplifier procs at 2.5%.
EDIT: Procs behave the same way whether you are dishing out or receiving damage. There are multiple variables involved, but statistical analysis gives you an easy breakdown of how often you can expect certain events to occur based on activation probability and how often the trigger condition is checked. The sole overriding factor is the presence of a proc cooldown timer.
Comments
This may seem a lil odd but 800+2000=2800dps not 5600 and as for that one awesome use every 4 mins i can kill more in that time without it than i could with the set and not suffer weaker shield strength having to use the borg set.
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
Kinetic damage scores double listed damage against exposed hulls. Therefore, 2000 + 800 = 2800 kinetic damage * 2 vs. exposed hull = 5600 net dps. I hope this clears it up for you.
EDIT: The Borg set has more combat survivability than most sets because of its auto hull and shield regen procs. Borg set shields have lower max shield capacity but double the regen rate of most other shields, allowing users to stay in combat for longer periods of time. They can't take as big an alpha-strike as MACO, but they recover more quickly afterwards.
I think you down it too easily.
I concur shield capacity is a problem, but we're talking an extra 2000DPS with the tractor beam. In my case, thats like adding two beam banks.
I'd still suggest it if you're in a sci ship and have the consoles for it.
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
You are forgetting that proc trigger rates are directly multiplied by the triggering event frequency (taking damage while any shield face is below 20% in the case of borg shields, or firing lots of weapons while using CSV, CRF, etc). This makes procs activation rates much higher than relying on base weapon firing cycles.
I have already tested Mk XII MACO vs. Mk XII Omega vs. Mk XII Borg, and the last set still comes out ahead when combined with the Omega space weapon set. I consistently get 1st place in all fleet actions using this set-up since it sports the highest sustained DPS with little damage fallout due to range or firing time length.
What Mk XII sets have you tested so far? EDIT: Or better yet, what Romulan + Omega rep tier level have you gotten to at this time? I'm curious if you've actually used any of the new equipment being mentioned in this thread.
Borg Shield procs all the time, trust me. If it doesn't proc it is on cooldown.
Shields regen every 3 seconds in combat, yes I know what the UI says it lies.
Torpedo cooldown can be that low with projectile doffs
You do make a good point about omega console set proc, does it effect the current firing cycle? I do not know.
Also it get a rather nice plasma proc if you use one of the romulan plasma science consoles.
As a side not and mostly un related have you tried the new nadeon detonator out with some tricoballt torps?
If you haven't I suggest using it against multiple targets. and note that if you fire a shcokwave tricobalt your standard tricobalt goes on a torpedo global cooldown rather than a 1 minute cool down.
Not everything you see on the internet is true - Abraham Lincoln
Occidere populo et effercio confractus
What you are saying makes no sense and as tested in game thru visual dmg and in combat logs shows no proof of what you speak about proc trigger rates having any multiplying affect nor is it mentioned in any way in game information especially concerning this so called 20% factor if you yourself cannot show any reasonable proof than don't comment that i should as well.
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
I see you are not familiar with basic probability rates. I'll try to simplify it for you in the example below:
Let's say I am using a full borg set, and one of my shields is below 20%, thereby meeting the trigger condition to activate. If I'm only hit with 1 shot, then the base chance of the auto-regenerative shield proc activating is 2%. What do you think happens when I get hit by 10 shot? 20 shots? 100 shots? Do you think the odds of the proc activating remain at 2% no matter how many shots hit? The answer is no, since every time I get hit, STO checks to see if the auto-regen proc activates. So the more hits occur, the higher the chances of proc activation in the given combat time frame.
This thread covers the same topic: http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=256907
Combat logs only show damage dealt, not listing actual percentages of proc triggers, so you're looking for proof in the wrong place.
You didn't answer my question from the last post: What Romulan and Omega Tier rep have you gotten to so far, and have you crafted any of the gear being discussed in this thread? I'm T5 for both, so I've tested everything first hand.
As a matter of fact, they do. The difference is, when you increase the number of rolls you increase the chance that one of those rolls will fall into the 2% range. The end result is the same: the proc goes off more often when taking more fire. Don't mistake that for some sort of scaling probability however.
Increasing the number of rolls does raise the total probability above the original 2% because any one or more successful proc checks for the entire shot group triggers the proc. Yes, that total probability increases with the total number of attempts, so yes, it is indeed scaling based on the number of rolls checked.
The above is the same as a simple coin flip game -- heads = win, tails = lose. If you flip the coin once, your odds of winning are simply 1 in 2, or 50%. What happens when you flip the coin twice or 3 times with any head being a win for the whole set? At 2 coin flips, odds of getting any head is 75%, and at 3 coin flips it should be 87.5%. It's more of a log curve than a true multiplier since you'll never get to 100%.
EDIT:
The URL below does all the probability math for you, in this case it's the binomial rule:
http://stattrek.com/online-calculator/binomial.aspx
If proc chance is 2%, and you get hit by 10 shots, then the chances of proc triggering is 18.29%. If hit by 20 shots, chances rise to 33.23%, and so forth.
Funny unless you are one of the game designers you really don't know that for sure, each hit scored could in fact have the same 2% chance rolled each time, also i wasn't refering to the borg shield regen capability anyways, i was refering to the omega weapon amp at 2.5% proc for 3secs along with the 3pc 1% 99%dmg protection for 1 sec every 10secs max it can occur.
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
Now you're just speculating, because I actually tested proc mechanics earlier last year and found that each shot is checked for procs. This was confirmed with Tetryon Glider -- it is a proc with a 100% base chance to trigger. I fired at a stationary target at 9.99km and observed shield drain on the target's shield facing away from my ship, once per cannon bolt hit.
Omega Weapon Amplifier follows the same proc rules, having a 2.5% per shot. Cannons shoot 4x per firing cycle, while DHC's shoot twice. At 2.5% proc chance per shot, that gives Turrets, Single Cannons, and Dual Cannons a base 9.6% chance to proc per volley (DHC's have 4.9% with only 2 shots per firing volley). Since CRF and CSV double volley speeds, these percentages rise to 18.33% (or 9.6% for DHC's). This is why people notice Omega Weapon Amplifier stacks, because its trigger rate is high enough that you can get it to proc multiple times in 3 seconds since it has no proc cooldown.
EDIT: The above are just probabilities for just one cannon or DHC. My breen ship runs 5 cannons (2 DHC's + 3 Turrets), so the odds of Omega Weapon Amplifier activating is 9.6% + 26.2% = 35.8% without CSV/CRF, and 18.33% + 45.53% = 63.85% with CSV or CRF active. Those are some darn good proc percentages!
I agree that the Omega Deflection 3-set proc is not worth while in its current form (2 second protection with 30 seconds cooldown = near-worthless). However, none of the Omega space weapon set items are underperformers -- each Omega item work well if used in the correct build.
If you have any more questions, I'll be happy to answer them, but please try to keep it civil.
Exactly! Each shot always remains at 2.5% constant proc activation chance, but when multiple 2.5% are checked for proc-activation as a collective group, then total percentage chance of a proc activating go well above the original 2.5%. Unfortunately the mathematical proofs covering these calculations are usually beyond the scope of those who have not taken accredited statistics courses.
So everyone's a game designer here i see, oh wait u didn't design this game and therefore have no concept of what number equations the program instills..... when u can show some solid proff that otherwise proves you absolutely correct than you can add your smart remarks. Yes common sense would tell you that more shots would equal increased percentages, but even with a general rule of thumb a 2.5% chance would indicate that for every 100 shots every 2 1/2 would proc and if that were the case having more weapons firing simply just goes towards that 100 shot total bringing you that much closer to the 2.5% and not really adding to a higher potential proc%
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
Absolutely incorrect shadowwraith77... your last (snide) response demonstrates that you do not understand the proof provided by the in-game experimental results nor the math behind the numbers.
EDIT: Here is a recap of the proof provided so far...
1) FACT - Weapon Procs are checked with every weapon hit (proof = Tetryon Glider experiment; all shield facings drained 4x with 4 cannon hits, once per hit, since Tetryon Glider procs 100% of the time). Any player can verify this 1st hand
2) FACT - Proc rates are stated in weapon description, typically 2.5% for standard weapons (phaser, polaron, etc).
3) Based on #1 and #2 above, if a weapon with 2.5% proc hits 4x, then each of the hits is checked for the 2.5% chance to proc
4) FACT - The Binomial Rule of Stats / Probabilities covers situations where success rate is constant (2.5% in the case of procs), the result can only be a success or fail (proc or no-proc), and the number of successes required = any constant <= total number of trials (only 1 proc success needed in this case). I linked a binomial formula calculator here to help folks see how proc percentages scale up with number of hits scored: http://www.stattrek.com/online-calculator/binomial.aspx
Here is the binomial formula used to derive the previous total probabilities:
Binomial formula: P(X = x) = b(x; n, P) = nCx * P^x * ((1 - P)^(n - x)) = nCx * P^x * Q^(n - x)
x: The number of successes that result from the binomial experiment.
n: The number of trials in the binomial experiment.
P: The probability of success on an individual trial.
Q: The probability of failure on an individual trial. (This is equal to 1 - P.)
b(x; n, P): Binomial probability - the probability that an n-trial binomial experiment results in exactly x successes, when the probability of success on an individual trial is P.
nCr: The number of combinations of n things, taken r at a time.
I thought I simplified these concept sufficiently with the coin-flip game example...
but I see it was still too complex for some.
This has got to be the most revealing quote so far... you have yet to write ANY mathematical equations in this thread as proof supporting your position. The "you're not a dev" argument holds little credibility when players can easily test how the game behaves just by playing it.
Sense is not common, and math doesn't lie.
www.stattrek.com has the full details... feel free to check out that web site if you want to learn more.
Tested in a foundry mission with unshielded mirror Typhoon battleships that don't do annoying things like use powers or move or shoot back, just sitting and firing each weapon individually without using any powers or attack patterns and whatnot. The omega proc seemed to appear at least a few times each minute which was nice but I haven't had a good look at how well that helps me in combat since I only just got the cutting beam.
I tried it out in combat in one borg red alert and it seemed to dispatch those unshielded annoying regen probes very nicely. I'll have to play with it more to see if I feel like it is more of a help than a hindrance to my overall damage output, especially vs shielded targets over time.
That borg tractor beam combo adds a sweet burst damage but man the cooldown is too long, otherwise I might use the full 3-piece set instead of 2+maco in situations other than starbase blockade.
Joined January 2009
Now here is someone who probably did some true testing, the proc rate on the omega amp is no better than a phaser knocking out a sub system same 2.5% test a phaser against something and see how many sub knockouts you achieve and you wind up with the same results for omega amp which won't be a whole lot of times in a single run of an stf completion in a timely manner......meaning no prolonged run do to endless respawns.
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
Seriously, at this point you're just trolling... No where in his post did he mention any proc rate experiments (he just noticed that procs activated occasionally -- no numbers, no time frames, no viewable data, no analysis). There's no need to make wild conclusions based on imaginary data.
Dude you just need to stop.
You've made a fallacious assumption: winning a roll once has no effect on the chance of winning again. It's a per damage tic proc, not a per cycle proc (unlike weapon type procs which are per cycle and not per tick). This is why cannon boats are noticing a significantly higher application of the Weapon Amplifier than beam boats.
None of the above changes the fact that the probability of the proc occurring is still 2% per shot. You're confusing two very different statistical concepts.
That's not what he is saying, he even provided the formula which clearly show he is using a fixed probability for the individual rolls, but that it is the net probability of receiving at least one proc that increases with number of rolls.
TRIBBLE | -Show Me Your Critz-
Svarog | Veles | et al.
I would agree with you if the Weapon Amplifier proc has a listed cooldown that blocked other proc activations after each success, but as of this current patch it has none. This is why Omega Weapon Amplifier can stack on multiple success rolls. Also, Omega Weapon Amplifier procs at 2.5% chance, not 2%.
EDIT: Please note Proof Fact #1 here - http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=7390771&postcount=49
... this is where I state that procs are evaluated per hit, not per firing cycle. Since cannons hit 4x per firing cycle, the 2.5% chance to proc is checked four times. If procs were checked only once per firing cycle, then Tetryon Glider would have proc'd only once instead of the observed 4x during that test.
If prior trial successes do influence future rolls for any STO proc when no proc cooldown is present, then what in-game proc example can you provide?
He's running with the assumption that if one tic from a set procs, than somehow it counts as a success for the whole set, and using that math as a way to backup his claim that the more you shoot the higher the base odds of the proc happening.
Did you actually read what I posted? You're confusing the fact that more shots = more procs with the idea that more procs = higher base activation percentage. Buying more lottery tickets increases the chance of you winning, but it doesn't change the odds of any individual ticket being a winner when you buy in bulk, which is the point you've been trying to defend.
No, that is not what I said... please refer to my prior post here: http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=7385711&postcount=47
I even provided the statistical formula used to derive exact probabilities. If I did make an error, then the numbers should not be confirming what I've stated.
Make up your mind:
That 2% was referencing Borg Hull Auto-Regen proc in the example given, not the Omega Weapon Proc. Omega Weapon Amplifier procs at 2.5%.
EDIT: Procs behave the same way whether you are dishing out or receiving damage. There are multiple variables involved, but statistical analysis gives you an easy breakdown of how often you can expect certain events to occur based on activation probability and how often the trigger condition is checked. The sole overriding factor is the presence of a proc cooldown timer.
I hope this sums it up for you...
"Facinating Captain. It appear to be Star Trek Nerd-Rage"
Everybody take a deep breath.....