I think some of us are getting too hung up on the idea that the Engineering class is a "selfish" class or that cruisers and/or escorts are "selfish" ships. We're ascribing a moral character trait to morally neutral objects, so we're missing the mark. It's a useful analogy, but it breaks down.
It is true that certain class powers do not directly benefit allies, and I think that Engineers in Cruisers do have a real problem in this regard. (My opinion) They're tanks that can't take aggro away from the damage-dealing escorts, and don't have enough abilities that directly heal, buff, or protect allies. (Again, my opinion) What they do have is effective, but ultimately they don't reduce the need for other ships to protect themselves with their own abilities. (Truth) I think this introduces a lot of imbalance and explains the number of hybrid ships Cryptic has released, which tend to blur the roles and make the imbalances more pronounced.
I acknowledge that it is certainly possible to build a cruiser to be a strong damage dealer, but in my opinion it's not easy or intuitive to do with whatever BOFFs and equipment you happen to have on hand. I sure can't seem to do it right so far, not that I've been able to concentrate on it.
On the other hand, in PvE at least, I can slap pretty much any reasonable build on a Tac/Escort and do well. PvP is a more specialized skillset that I don't possess, so I can't comment on that.
One thing that might help (again, my opinion) is to give Cruisers good point-defense abilities that the other ships can't match. That way they can provide support for other ships within their point-defense range and boost their aggro when they're in the thick of things. Unfortunately, I don't really see support for that in canon.
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Why can't a defensive tank build do their job and grab aggro away from escorts?
Becuase Threat control is a weak agro skill compared to direct damage and needs to be fixed for PvE.
Why does a science vessel need an escort to destroy the small vessels they just snared and nerfed?
They are working as a team?
Why are they the best shield healers in the game?
They where given better shielding.
Why can they tank just as well as Cruisers?
They have the same option of powers. Tanking is not a vessel specific trait anymore since the playerbase has learned to cycle powers, stack resists and the like.
Why are escorts so tough that they can just sit there like a turret and blast away at enemies?
They learned how to cycle defensive powers like EPtS, AtB,TSS, HE, PH , etc for the heals and resists they offer. Why has the Cruiser not learned how to do this better since they have access to the highend defensive powers?
I think some of us are getting too hung up on the idea that the Engineering class is a "selfish" class or that cruisers and/or escorts are "selfish" ships. We're ascribing a moral character trait to morally neutral objects, so we're missing the mark. It's a useful analogy, but it breaks down.
It is true that certain class powers do not directly benefit allies, and I think that Engineers in Cruisers do have a real problem in this regard. (My opinion) They're tanks that can't take aggro away from the damage-dealing escorts, and don't have enough abilities that directly heal, buff, or protect allies. (Again, my opinion) What they do have is effective, but ultimately they don't reduce the need for other ships to protect themselves with their own abilities. (Truth) I think this introduces a lot of imbalance and explains the number of hybrid ships Cryptic has released, which tend to blur the roles and make the imbalances more pronounced.
I acknowledge that it is certainly possible to build a cruiser to be a strong damage dealer, but in my opinion it's not easy or intuitive to do with whatever BOFFs and equipment you happen to have on hand. I sure can't seem to do it right so far, not that I've been able to concentrate on it.
On the other hand, in PvE at least, I can slap pretty much any reasonable build on a Tac/Escort and do well. PvP is a more specialized skillset that I don't possess, so I can't comment on that.
One thing that might help (again, my opinion) is to give Cruisers good point-defense abilities that the other ships can't match. That way they can provide support for other ships within their point-defense range and boost their aggro when they're in the thick of things. Unfortunately, I don't really see support for that in canon.
One of the biggest issues is they put no fear into escort captains taking on big cruisers or carriers other than a little less hull str and shield str, but a well built escort can match alot of larger ships hull and shield str and still deal out the woopass dmg on top.
If an escort was to live up to it's name intended, it would aid larger vessels against smaller vessels while helping to weaken larger ones, but instead take out any vessel all on their own with no real need of assistance most of the time.
In this mmo they make escorts out to be front man ships looking for prey, while the others are there to escort them.
Now, what could one do? I have a proposal: Get rid of self-only-buffing powers as such. All captain powers (the class-specific ones, that is) should be scaled down in magnitude, but should affect the whole team at once.
And for those of us who play solo? A middle finger?
it makes the Escort vulnerable so the Cruiser will heal and protect it
it makes even the toughest ship need support
I confess to being one of the Cruisers which very rarely dies
simply because I am Armoured to the max most of the time and keep my ship intact where possible
I will happily repair escorts IF they ask me too
But They have to let me know they need repairs AND slow down so I can lock on
(its very hard to repair something at full impulse for example)
I however do not repair Tholian ships as "you can't get the parts"
Hm, or reduce the rewards based on the amount of times your ship exploded? Nice idea. But it rather does not encourage team play, does it?
Of course it does. The Eng/ Cruiser that wants to be the hero but you want to give damage buffs to, he can heal like a beast and has powerful self only Captain abilities to free up his BOff abilities to be shared with his team mates.
It's not the kind of team play you want but it's still team play and works quite well, usually.
________________________
He can't even shoot straight. - Joseph Stalin on his son's (failed) suicide attempt.
I think some of us are getting too hung up on the idea that the Engineering class is a "selfish" class or that cruisers and/or escorts are "selfish" ships. We're ascribing a moral character trait to morally neutral objects, so we're missing the mark. It's a useful analogy, but it breaks down.
For me to get this far I'd have to recognize this thread as something other than a thinly veiled "nerf tac" thread.
Well, then the Tac has an incentive to beg for the engineer's support, but what is the engineer's support to give it, instead of just making sure that his own ship doesn't die at all?
You keep mentioning Engineer as if it's analogous to the support class but in an Escort, especially if you focus on PvE (which you seem to be judging by a few comments in previous posts), an Engineer Escort can deal respectable damage all by itself and still have better survivability than a Science or Tactical character.
If you actually mean ''What can the Cruiser contribute?' then the answer's pretty simple: Heals and resists but it seems that some don't want to do that either, despite being what the ship they use being particularly good at this.
Still won't solve the problem of the emotional satisfaction of a kill for non-tacs
Then roll a Tac alt, damage is what they do. If you get no satisfaction from supporting others then a support class is probably not the character class for you. Personally I love using my Science ship and knowing that kill was because of my debuffs, or that STF went so much smoother because of the CC I was using. But then, I enjoy playing the support classes as much as the damage dealing class.
________________________
He can't even shoot straight. - Joseph Stalin on his son's (failed) suicide attempt.
No, I did not. I picked a class that was advertised as something else. Read that text at the character generation screen, and even if you read it as "defensive", you will see how one could read it as something else. (But ftr, I have toons of all classes on both factions. My tacs just bore me, as indicated above.)
Has it changed recently? I don't have access to the game just this minute. According to youtube this is the description for engineers:
"Survivability, support generators, and controlling the paths of enemy advance with fieldworks. The Engineering Officer can withstand the most damage by improving the performance of their own personal shields, while supporting his away team with power generators or by bottlenecking the enemy's advance with defensive minefields. The engineer's combat effectiveness is improved by modifications to their firearms or support fire from fabricated turrets and drones"
I dunno, that sounds extremely defensive and support/tanky to me. I'm not really seeing where you can get confused there. The very first two words are "survivability & support." I think at some point people have to take a little personal responsibility for selecting their classes, and maybe doing a little prior research.
My first character was an engineer back at launch, and I knew very full well that I was playing a tank/healer class. I didn't know much else, but I did know that.
Wut? You picked a defensive class... Pick a different class if that doesn't float your boat.
He did. He used a Tactical captain in the Peg'Hu Veteran KDF ship (a ship with a Tactical Commander BOff since its a Destroyer) and found the Elite STFs too easy.
Now he wants to nerf the tactical Class to make his Cruiser feel better and his Engineer choice look better in his own eyes rather than aproach the problem from the logical direction and remove the DPS based scoring system to replace it with a flat system for mission rewards where currently he feels the best gear goes to the highest damage dealer.
Sophie was the subject of some small discussion last night in chat and how he, like others, are on this holy crusade to fix a problem with the Tactical class that does not exist rather than fix the rewards validation issue that does exist in STO.
Frankly, we all agreed he is acting in a selfish manner asking for a Nerf to tactical or a direct buff the Cruisers and Engineers while completely overlooking the easier fix to an issue that doesn't exist within the tactical class.
Has it changed recently? I don't have access to the game just this minute. According to youtube this is the description for engineers:
"Survivability, support generators, and controlling the paths of enemy advance with fieldworks. The Engineering Officer can withstand the most damage by improving the performance of their own personal shields, while supporting his away team with power generators or by bottlenecking the enemy's advance with defensive minefields. The engineer's combat effectiveness is improved by modifications to their firearms or support fire from fabricated turrets and drones"
I dunno, that sounds pretty defensive and support/tanky to me. I think at some point people have to take a little personal responsibility for selecting their classes, and maybe doing a little prior research.
My first character was an engineer back at launch, and I knew very full well that I was playing a tank/healer class. I didn't know much else, but I did know that.
Unfortunately Sophie reads it as thus;
Combat damage, stealth tactics and squad tactics. The Tactical officer can deliver damage in the widest variety of methods, while supporting his away team by drawing off enemy threat or bolstering their combat effectiveness with tactics and squad commands.
A Tactical officer's job is to keep the ship and crew safe from harm. A Tactical officer's skills are specialized for combat, both in space and on the ground. They get the job, whether using phasers, fists, or photon torpedoes, allowing Starfleet to explore and learn in safety.
Tactical officers increase the damage done by a ship, providing the ability to fire salvos of torpedoes and overload energy weapons for a massive attack. On the ground Tactical officers make the most out of any weapon, and are able to mix it up in melee combat better than anyone.
I mean that describes Geordi and his Engineer skills to a "T" doesn't it? AH, the memories of Geordi wading through combat at the helm of the Enterprise's fire controls. Blowing up foes with phaser fire and torpedoes, and using all manner of Combat tactics he learned at the Academy.
Then stop trying to change the game to suit your personal definitions of how the classes should be played.
Even AlexCobra is not as bad as you in his crusade for better Cruiser gameplay. He doesn't wish to handicap teh tactical toon or escort for doing what the class is designed to do. He actually recognizes the need for some changes to gameplay in general as oppossed to your somewhat specific attacks on the Escort or tac class.
Mods, please close this thread. It is devolving into something nobody can want.
Oh no doubts, it fell off the common sense ladder at the first post
He did. He used a Tactical captain in the Peg'Hu Veteran KDF ship (a ship with a Tactical Commander BOff since its a Destroyer) and found the Elite STFs too easy.
Now he wants to nerf the tactical Class to make his Cruiser feel better and his Engineer choice look better in his own eyes rather than aproach the problem from the logical direction and remove the DPS based scoring system to replace it with a flat system for mission rewards where currently he feels the best gear goes to the highest damage dealer.
Sophie was the subject of some small discussion last night in chat and how he, like others, are on this holy crusade to fix a problem with the Tactical class that does not exist rather than fix the rewards validation issue that does exist in STO.
Frankly, we all agreed he is acting in a selfish manner asking for a Nerf to tactical or a direct buff the Cruisers and Engineers while completely overlooking the easier fix to an issue that doesn't exist within the tactical class.
absolutely true...the mechanic to do so is already in place anyway...just undervalued. for instance fleet actions...it is claimed by the devs...and i do believe that the mission objectives are a factor for your ranking in the end, but i can easily outrank somebody that did 80% of the mission objectives, if i just do 20% of the objectives and 80% of the dmg...thats just wrong.
but, and there is the actual fact where it is balanced around: each class can get a DPS ship/abilities and even the odds...it is just the player that chose to do fleet actions in ships that are less favoured by the mission and reward mechanic.
players force themselves into roles, and if you want to do a mission that primarely requires DPS, well a support cruiser is the obvious wrong choice.
True, it would be a hell of a lot more convenient for everybody to fly around in the ship he likes best and be competitive in each grp mission, but that is simply not the current state of the game.
Since 90% of the missions are still focused on DPS, a tac in an escort will allways have a better chance of winning than a sci in a cruiser.
for ground thats a different story, since i rarely do ground, i really have no opinion on that. Just saying, you can win romulan temple with a sci and a heal kid if you try hard and you are lucky.
absolutely true...the mechanic to do so is already in place anyway...just undervalued. for instance fleet actions...it is claimed by the devs...and i do believe that the mission objectives are a factor for your ranking in the end, but i can easily outrank somebody that did 80% of the mission objectives, if i just do 20% of the objectives and 80% of the dmg...thats just wrong.
I agree completely. STFs, Fleet assingments, any mission that normall pays rewards to the highest DPS leader neads to be reconfigured to pay a flat reward instead with a random chance of getting the "sought after" items than everyone hopes they get when rewards are handed out.
but, and there is the actual fact where it is balanced around: each class can get a DPS ship/abilities and even the odds...it is just the player that chose to do fleet actions in ships that are less favoured by the mission and reward mechanic.
players force themselves into roles, and if you want to do a mission that primarely requires DPS, well a support cruiser is the obvious wrong choice.
this is where the issue gives me gas. We have choices of vessels, equipment, BOffs, even the class we choose to play and yet some players refuse to use those choices and unstead want the game to favor thier "fan favorite" vessel, class, or whatever rather than adapt to the game.
True, it would be a hell of a lot more convenient for everybody to fly around in the ship he likes best and be competitive in each grp mission, but that is simply not the current state of the game. Since 90% of the missions are still focused on DPS, a tac in an escort will allways have a better chance of winning than a sci in a cruiser.
Hence why I say that needs to change. Remove DPS as the defining factor in rewards payout in a mission.
The "classes" in this game are already way WAY to similar... I don't really understand why anyone would re-roll after maxing out one character, no matter what class.
I think the main issue is that the engs and scis don't get to feel like "the hero" (as stated in the OP) but that again doesn't have anything to do with classes - it has to do with the simply dismal UI and game design of STO. It was that way ever since beta, people were complaining about it and now that I came back to take a quick look (since it's free and all that) I noticed that literally nothing has improved.
Just implement a proper damage and healing meter for starters... you know, those strange bars that WOW has since 2004. That might motivate people to play a healer because then other people can actually see that they are pulling their weight.
Sadly all this talk and all the suggestions on the forum are utterly irrelevant - Cryptic isn't trying to provide a good game, they just want to milk the players for cash. Anyone who doesn't see this is basically a lost cause anyway (and likely will suck no matter what class they play).
I think the main issue is that the engs and scis don't get to feel like "the hero" (as stated in the OP) but that again doesn't have anything to do with classes - it has to do with the simply dismal UI and game design of STO. It was that way ever since beta, people were complaining about it and now that I came back to take a quick look (since it's free and all that) I noticed that literally nothing has improved.
The game is written for the Pew-Pew player and that is why the Tactical class shines. The game is designed for it.
Fix the game not nueter the tactical class is the way to go.
Just implement a proper damage and healing meter for starters... you know, those strange bars that WOW has since 2004. That might motivate people to play a healer because then other people can actually see that they are pulling their weight.
Or like GW2. Participation gets the same reward no matter how much I contribute to a fight or mission completion.
Sadly all this talk and all the suggestions on the forum are utterly irrelevant - Cryptic isn't trying to provide a good game, they just want to milk the players for cash. Anyone who doesn't see this is basically a lost cause anyway (and likely will suck no matter what class they play).
All evidence points that way but that is no reason why we must not keep trying to get a better game out of Cryptic. They have a good looking product, good people. They just need to polish the game and refine it to be smoother and fairer to all the classes.
If we, as players, continue to push for changes based on our ego then this game is doomed as far as I am concerned becuase as fans we will never come to a consensus on what is balanced or fair to all, and not just to ourselves.
Comments
It is true that certain class powers do not directly benefit allies, and I think that Engineers in Cruisers do have a real problem in this regard. (My opinion) They're tanks that can't take aggro away from the damage-dealing escorts, and don't have enough abilities that directly heal, buff, or protect allies. (Again, my opinion) What they do have is effective, but ultimately they don't reduce the need for other ships to protect themselves with their own abilities. (Truth) I think this introduces a lot of imbalance and explains the number of hybrid ships Cryptic has released, which tend to blur the roles and make the imbalances more pronounced.
I acknowledge that it is certainly possible to build a cruiser to be a strong damage dealer, but in my opinion it's not easy or intuitive to do with whatever BOFFs and equipment you happen to have on hand. I sure can't seem to do it right so far, not that I've been able to concentrate on it.
On the other hand, in PvE at least, I can slap pretty much any reasonable build on a Tac/Escort and do well. PvP is a more specialized skillset that I don't possess, so I can't comment on that.
One thing that might help (again, my opinion) is to give Cruisers good point-defense abilities that the other ships can't match. That way they can provide support for other ships within their point-defense range and boost their aggro when they're in the thick of things. Unfortunately, I don't really see support for that in canon.
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
Becuase Threat control is a weak agro skill compared to direct damage and needs to be fixed for PvE.
They are working as a team?
They where given better shielding.
They have the same option of powers. Tanking is not a vessel specific trait anymore since the playerbase has learned to cycle powers, stack resists and the like.
They learned how to cycle defensive powers like EPtS, AtB,TSS, HE, PH , etc for the heals and resists they offer. Why has the Cruiser not learned how to do this better since they have access to the highend defensive powers?
R.I.P
I agree with these opinions
If an escort was to live up to it's name intended, it would aid larger vessels against smaller vessels while helping to weaken larger ones, but instead take out any vessel all on their own with no real need of assistance most of the time.
In this mmo they make escorts out to be front man ships looking for prey, while the others are there to escort them.
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
And for those of us who play solo? A middle finger?
No reward for any ship that is destroyed in a mission
AT ALL
this would encourage survival
it makes the Escort vulnerable so the Cruiser will heal and protect it
it makes even the toughest ship need support
I confess to being one of the Cruisers which very rarely dies
simply because I am Armoured to the max most of the time and keep my ship intact where possible
I will happily repair escorts IF they ask me too
But They have to let me know they need repairs AND slow down so I can lock on
(its very hard to repair something at full impulse for example)
I however do not repair Tholian ships as "you can't get the parts"
Of course it does. The Eng/ Cruiser that wants to be the hero but you want to give damage buffs to, he can heal like a beast and has powerful self only Captain abilities to free up his BOff abilities to be shared with his team mates.
It's not the kind of team play you want but it's still team play and works quite well, usually.
He can't even shoot straight. - Joseph Stalin on his son's (failed) suicide attempt.
its his function
And as team success depends on ZERO casualties
He will do his job
Wut? You picked a defensive class... Pick a different class if that doesn't float your boat.
For me to get this far I'd have to recognize this thread as something other than a thinly veiled "nerf tac" thread.
they are the Redshirt
the guy who is supposed to stand between the useful officers and the angry Alien monster with the big teeth
Back in the 1960s. Then they became command officer colors. Keep up with the times gramps;)
You keep mentioning Engineer as if it's analogous to the support class but in an Escort, especially if you focus on PvE (which you seem to be judging by a few comments in previous posts), an Engineer Escort can deal respectable damage all by itself and still have better survivability than a Science or Tactical character.
If you actually mean ''What can the Cruiser contribute?' then the answer's pretty simple: Heals and resists but it seems that some don't want to do that either, despite being what the ship they use being particularly good at this.
Then roll a Tac alt, damage is what they do. If you get no satisfaction from supporting others then a support class is probably not the character class for you. Personally I love using my Science ship and knowing that kill was because of my debuffs, or that STF went so much smoother because of the CC I was using. But then, I enjoy playing the support classes as much as the damage dealing class.
He can't even shoot straight. - Joseph Stalin on his son's (failed) suicide attempt.
"Survivability, support generators, and controlling the paths of enemy advance with fieldworks. The Engineering Officer can withstand the most damage by improving the performance of their own personal shields, while supporting his away team with power generators or by bottlenecking the enemy's advance with defensive minefields. The engineer's combat effectiveness is improved by modifications to their firearms or support fire from fabricated turrets and drones"
I dunno, that sounds extremely defensive and support/tanky to me. I'm not really seeing where you can get confused there. The very first two words are "survivability & support." I think at some point people have to take a little personal responsibility for selecting their classes, and maybe doing a little prior research.
My first character was an engineer back at launch, and I knew very full well that I was playing a tank/healer class. I didn't know much else, but I did know that.
He did. He used a Tactical captain in the Peg'Hu Veteran KDF ship (a ship with a Tactical Commander BOff since its a Destroyer) and found the Elite STFs too easy.
Now he wants to nerf the tactical Class to make his Cruiser feel better and his Engineer choice look better in his own eyes rather than aproach the problem from the logical direction and remove the DPS based scoring system to replace it with a flat system for mission rewards where currently he feels the best gear goes to the highest damage dealer.
Sophie was the subject of some small discussion last night in chat and how he, like others, are on this holy crusade to fix a problem with the Tactical class that does not exist rather than fix the rewards validation issue that does exist in STO.
Frankly, we all agreed he is acting in a selfish manner asking for a Nerf to tactical or a direct buff the Cruisers and Engineers while completely overlooking the easier fix to an issue that doesn't exist within the tactical class.
R.I.P
Unfortunately Sophie reads it as thus;
I mean that describes Geordi and his Engineer skills to a "T" doesn't it? AH, the memories of Geordi wading through combat at the helm of the Enterprise's fire controls. Blowing up foes with phaser fire and torpedoes, and using all manner of Combat tactics he learned at the Academy.
R.I.P
R.I.P
absolutely true...the mechanic to do so is already in place anyway...just undervalued. for instance fleet actions...it is claimed by the devs...and i do believe that the mission objectives are a factor for your ranking in the end, but i can easily outrank somebody that did 80% of the mission objectives, if i just do 20% of the objectives and 80% of the dmg...thats just wrong.
but, and there is the actual fact where it is balanced around: each class can get a DPS ship/abilities and even the odds...it is just the player that chose to do fleet actions in ships that are less favoured by the mission and reward mechanic.
players force themselves into roles, and if you want to do a mission that primarely requires DPS, well a support cruiser is the obvious wrong choice.
True, it would be a hell of a lot more convenient for everybody to fly around in the ship he likes best and be competitive in each grp mission, but that is simply not the current state of the game.
Since 90% of the missions are still focused on DPS, a tac in an escort will allways have a better chance of winning than a sci in a cruiser.
for ground thats a different story, since i rarely do ground, i really have no opinion on that. Just saying, you can win romulan temple with a sci and a heal kid if you try hard and you are lucky.
R.I.P
I think the main issue is that the engs and scis don't get to feel like "the hero" (as stated in the OP) but that again doesn't have anything to do with classes - it has to do with the simply dismal UI and game design of STO. It was that way ever since beta, people were complaining about it and now that I came back to take a quick look (since it's free and all that) I noticed that literally nothing has improved.
Just implement a proper damage and healing meter for starters... you know, those strange bars that WOW has since 2004. That might motivate people to play a healer because then other people can actually see that they are pulling their weight.
Sadly all this talk and all the suggestions on the forum are utterly irrelevant - Cryptic isn't trying to provide a good game, they just want to milk the players for cash. Anyone who doesn't see this is basically a lost cause anyway (and likely will suck no matter what class they play).
R.I.P