Me and my fleetmates were discussing this while looking at it on tribble. Then one guy pointed out that the perspective of the Klingon - Romulan feud was for most of TNG and DS9 told from the perspective of Worf. Worf is a very biased source of information as he has deeply personal reasons to hate the RSE (killing his parents etc....). In fact there were several Klingon houses that apparently had no problem working with the Romulans(Redemption. Granted, Gowron called all of them corrupt, but he also hinted that over half of the 2367 High Council backed the "corrupt" House of Duras and the other houses not mentioned by name. Which eventually started a civil war between the Klingon Houses.
But STO is set in 2409. Since the Klingon Civil War, the RSE has helped the KDF defeat the Dominion/Cardassian/Breen alliance. That was enough to convince Worf that the RSE can fight with honor.... when they want to.
Yup. In fact, there's one episode where Worf is, by the writers' admission, portrayed deliberately as an anti-Romulan racist who was confronted with this when he met half-Klingon, half-Romulans.
In general, if you don't take character opinions like Worf's as gospel, almost every Klingon we see supports EITHER the Romulans OR the Federation... and every Klingon who is an enemy of the Federation is friendly towards the Romulans and vice versa. The novels may not jive perfectly with that but I think the novels are frequently written from imperfect observations of the shows.
I think there's probably a strong case to be made that Klingon-Federation hostilities were always fueled by third parties, the Romulans in particular... and the Tal Shiar and Romulan military in particular, which I'm unconvinced represents the typical Romulan.
Take a look back. The Klingons and Federation entered times of peace whenever the Klingons and Romulans weren't allies and almost every Klingon who opposed the Federation from TNG on was Romulan allied.
The instance we have of a Federation-Klingon War timeline in TNG was provoked by the Romulans and I think it's pretty sound to suggest that was their goal.
Then look at what little we know of Mirror Romulans and Mirror history. It would appear that the major difference is earth history until First Contact. And what did the humans do? They enslaved the Vulcans. And how did they manage to enslave a warp capable society with one stolen science vessel? And then by DS9, we have this portrait of the Romulans remaining neutral but backing the humans covertly against the Klingons. And suddenly the humans managed to rebuild a fallen empire in 30 years. With what resources? The Terrans have a backer.
And what do the Terrans and Romulans have in common? Roman styling.
My take is that in BOTH universes, the Romulans have tried to manipulate the Federation and humans in particular into getting locked into a costly, unending war with the Klingons until both groups are depleted.
In the Mirror Universe, the big difference is that the Romulans were successful. I'd wager that they armed Cochrane and the folks in Bozeman and pushed them into enslaving the Vulcans as their first act. My reasonable guess is that Romulans backed the Terrans the whole time.
And how far back the divergence goes depends on whether the literature and history books in the Mirror Enterprise era were authentic or forged and whether the opening credits are canon and even then whether they are historical recordings (which can be faked) or actual events. My gut says that with WWIII happening the same though, that the Mirror Universe wasn't actually different until the 21st century and that the Romulans swooped in and did an Orwellian revision of Earth culture. The Terran moon landing, etc. was all fake to take advantage of a people whose records were destroyed.
But there was a lot of tension between the Romulans and the Klingons, including Martok and Gowron after the Roms joined the Dominion war. Every single appearance of a Romulan and Klingon together was characterized by mutual loathing and snide comments about Klingons as pigs and Roms as treacherous, unless it involved a traitor.
You guys are trying to twist canon in a way that fits a game that doesn't seem to care much about canon, don't you think?
So is this thread officially off topic now? I dont mind, I only ask because I'm not interested in reading the discussion about KDF/Rom tensions, so I wont bother clicking on it to read new posts if thats what they'll be about. But if its about the topic of whether S7 was supposed to be about "story", and if that actually happened, then I am
hmm... I remember them saying S7 was going to be about story when S6 launched.
Well, season 7 isn't really about story but it has some good potential, and there are mini episodes on new romulus. You unlock them with reputation tiers, here story is the reward (so said cryptic). I've been able to play the staging area mission - tier 1 reward -, it's a nice little story.
I think you can watch again the cutscene you get at the begining, there's a console for this near the transporter pad.
There's not much story, to be honnest, but the planet has some good potential. In the cutscene you learn the planet is a former Romulan colony, there are ruins, a mystery about radiations, you get clues when you talk to researchers about animals, etc. I just hope it won't be wasted and that it won't be unfinished for ages like the undine story arc.
There's another story you unlock as reward for playing content: you get datachips from the Romulan historian (play red alerts), i'm trying to complete my collection and it's going pretty well until now. Soon i'll be able to read the full story.
What's sad with season 7 is that it's a good start, but just a start though. We're still waiting for it to be developped, and I fear that Cryptic could just move onto the next rep, build a similar zone with a lot of potential, and repeat it over and over without really finishing what they started. Considering how they treated episodes before, it's likely to happen. Or we can get a lousy episode to solve the mystery, learn something disappointing, because they wouldn't put enough attention or money into it.
My favourite area is the ruins, I think it's the best zone on this planet, it's somewhat inspiring and could lead to a good episode. I'll give them a chance and wait for season 8 to see if it's not another unfinished job or wasted potential but i'm rather skeptical.
In the cutscene you learn the planet is a former Romulan colony, there are ruins, a mystery about radiations, you get clues when you talk to researchers about animals, etc. I just hope it won't be wasted and that it won't be unfinished for ages like the undine story arc.
There's another story you unlock as reward for playing content: you get datachips from the Romulan historian (play red alerts), i'm trying to complete my collection and it's going pretty well until now. Soon i'll be able to read the full story.
This is the part that made me pause and ask, "Ok, is there really a story here, or are the radiation samples just there to give me something to scan 5/5? Is there a point in what I'm doing? Do the ruins have some kind of significance?
I really hope all of the tasks somehow relate to a story, but with Cryptic's record... well, yeah, maybe I'm just grinding to grind.
What is this crazy radiation? What are these stones? What are these creatures beyond something to scan? We get a little bit of detail from npcs, but I have absolutely no clue how any of it relates to anything resembling a story.
Hopefully that will change as I level up. For now, I run around with random tasks to do.
I'm just really, really hopeful that there is some kind of "there" there. If not, I'm wasting my time scanning radiation, tagging slugs, and collecting water samples. Do any of my tasks relate to anything resembling a story? I really hope so.
If not, I'm just part of some kind of timer level system that is pointless in the end. "Hey you, go collect 5 burritos, and you'll get a cookie. The plot, you ask? The monster likes cookies."
If there is no effort to explain the radiation, then it is uber-story fail. If the slug folks have no bearing on anything, then it is uber-story stupid.
If they tease me with the details of a story that has NO follow-through as far as a plot, then I might as well give up at the first sign of pointlessness.
I'd bet money that more than half of what you do on New Romulus is just grind.
The ruins, radiation, and possibly the stones and crater, however, all probably have some significance later on. Especially the ruins, seeing as the Tholians are intensely interested in them.
But the animals are probably just animals, the Hirogen are just jerks, the plants are just plants, and the Epohhs are just adorable. The only story significance is these are things that you kind of would need to learn about when you're colonizing a new planet. So at least it makes sense in the setting's context even if it ultimately isn't relevant to the plot.
But there was a lot of tension between the Romulans and the Klingons, including Martok and Gowron after the Roms joined the Dominion war. Every single appearance of a Romulan and Klingon together was characterized by mutual loathing and snide comments about Klingons as pigs and Roms as treacherous, unless it involved a traitor.
You guys are trying to twist canon in a way that fits a game that doesn't seem to care much about canon, don't you think?
Well, I was simply pointing out that the Klingon hatred of Romulans isn't as omnipresent as some people make it out to be. It is true that the two races don't get along well, but the same is true of the Feds and KDF. One interesting quote from Star Trek VI is about Kirk. It was something like "There can be no peace while Kirk lives!" Unfortunately i can't find the exact quote.
You guys are trying to twist canon in a way that fits a game that doesn't seem to care much about canon, don't you think?
Interesting. What would you say if a new series, or film, came about in which the writers had the Romulans and Klingons forming another strong alliance together? We can complain about previous canon being ignored but at some point stories, and the universe they take place in, have to progress forward and not become static.
The idea that these two factions would forever be enemies makes them seem less like real races and characters. STO does need to do a much better job of getting its point across in this regard, but I'd never begrudge them for trying different things.
Did you resolve the mission "Hidden Camera" yet?
Did you complete tier one and start running tier one content? It's got voice overs...
Are you doing the space a patrol daily?
You can re run the initial cut scene by going to one of the consoles where you first beam into New Romulus.
join Date: Sep 2009 - I want my changeling lava lamp!
Well, I was simply pointing out that the Klingon hatred of Romulans isn't as omnipresent as some people make it out to be. It is true that the two races don't get along well, but the same is true of the Feds and KDF. One interesting quote from Star Trek VI is about Kirk. It was something like "There can be no peace while Kirk lives!" Unfortunately i can't find the exact quote.
But, see this sounds to me like, "There is no reason that a group of Borg can't be spies for Section 31, since there is an example of Hue's followers being manipulated by Lore." Still, you know? Borg working for the Federation is kind of like Happy Days jumping the shark, unless it's a liberated Borg or something.
This game just throws the curve ball, and it then expects us to reason out the possibilities on our own, despite what canon taught us (unless maybe some blog explains the plot of the game).
So, I think maybe WE are putting more effort into explaining it than the Cryptic team has done. Plain and simple, give the KDF something equal but separate to do. Maybe they'll ignore the plot holes.
Next: Attend a fully clothed Bajoran wedding due to the rating of the game. At some point, we have to say, "WTF!"
Interesting. What would you say if a new series, or film, came about in which the writers had the Romulans and Klingons forming another strong alliance together? We can complain about previous canon being ignored but at some point stories, and the universe they take place in, have to progress forward and not become static.
The idea that these two factions would forever be enemies makes them seem less like real races and characters. STO does need to do a much better job of getting its point across in this regard, but I'd never begrudge them for trying different things.
I don't begrudge anyone for trying something different. But, how about explaining it, please?
What does the game tell us, in between when we are killing Romulans and helping Romulans? "There was a new system added to the game which contradicts the original story. Please stand by..."
"By the way... Vulcans and Romulans are now subjects of the Dominion. Feel free to speculate about that. We'll give you cool ships to blow up. BOOM!"
But, see this sounds to me like, "There is no reason that a group of Borg can't be spies for Section 31, since there is an example of Hue's followers being manipulated by Lore." Still, you know? Borg working for the Federation is kind of like Happy Days jumping the shark, unless it's a liberated Borg or something.
This game just throws the curve ball, and it then expects us to reason out the possibilities on our own, despite what canon taught us (unless maybe some blog explains the plot of the game).
So, I think maybe WE are putting more effort into explaining it than the Cryptic team has done. Plain and simple, give the KDF something equal but separate to do. Maybe they'll ignore the plot holes.
Next: Attend a fully clothed Bajoran wedding due to the rating of the game. At some point, we have to say, "WTF!"
You're thinking of Betazoids....
There is a dev blog explaining J'mpok's motives somewhere. Basically J'mpok sees it as a form of conquest. But also a long term solution to their issues with wars vs multiple enemies.
There is a dev blog explaining J'mpok's motives somewhere. Basically J'mpok sees it as a form of conquest. But also a long term solution to their issues with wars vs multiple enemies.
Yeah, I'm thinking of Betazoid weddings, sorry. I'm not sure why I wrote Bajoran there.
I want the game to explain to me what is going on. Dev blogs are not part of the game. Path to 2409 on some third party website is not part of the game.
What is part of the game?
Can you imagine going to a movie, seeing something that makes NO SENSE, and having a fellow patron tell you, "Hey, if you visit this website, it tries to explain the plot of this movie, sort of."
What is the plot here? Please tell me where in the game. Hopefully I'll find it as I level.
Do they really think that we don't care, and if we do care, then we're perfectly capable of doing extra credit research to understand what is going on, beyond killing bad guys?
But there was a lot of tension between the Romulans and the Klingons, including Martok and Gowron after the Roms joined the Dominion war. Every single appearance of a Romulan and Klingon together was characterized by mutual loathing and snide comments about Klingons as pigs and Roms as treacherous, unless it involved a traitor.
You guys are trying to twist canon in a way that fits a game that doesn't seem to care much about canon, don't you think?
Martok and Gowron are basically from the pro-Fed school of Klingon thought.
Again, if you toss the novels and all the Klingon fandom's accumulated lore and focus strictly on filmed shows, almost every Klingon is friendly to the Federation OR the Romulans and they represent basically two totally different views on honor within Klingon society.
Anti-Federation Klingons on the shows are intensely pro-Romulan. Anti-Romulan Klingons are generally grudgingly or condescendingly friendly towards humans.
It is one or the other. It's not both. The combination of those ideas only happens if you try to construct a composite Klingon culture that agrees with everything a Klingon personally believed on the shows and that isn't how culture works. Cultures are not monolithic and it SIMPLIFIES Klingons to make them monolithic by trying to make the larger society reflect the tastes and prejudices of each member from the shows, when the shows clearly showed at least one major point of division.
And that is whether a given Klingon is pro-Romulan/anti-Fed or pro-Fed/anti-Romulan.
The Klingons helping Romulans story is pretty reasonable, imo. There's lots of loose ends, stories that can be told about those not content with it, but it doesn't fly against canon as much as it may seem.
Klingons have acted against their prejudices before when it becomes necessary or very practical. They had to accept help from the Federation after their moon blew up. And as much as some Klingons may hate all romulans, many more can probably agree that helping some non-threatening romulans is preferable to being harassed by marauding Tal Shiar.
What sort of things made Klingons hate romulans in the first place? Surprise raids on Khitomer, sneaky betrayals, subterfuge. Everything the Tal Shiar stands for. Now that individual romulans can afford to distance themselves from these policies, klingons would have to be stupid to not at least consider helping out, just for stability on their borders.
Klingons are no strangers to interference. They armed pre-warp peoples back in TOS days. They like to justify their efforts by honor, and stay away from the sneakier strategies, but saying 'it's against canon' goes against numerous examples of how things like this are reasonable. And it's not like they're ignoring dissent among klingons, since you fight romulan-hating klingons in a patrol.
Take a look at my Foundry missions! Conjoined, Re-emergence, and . . .
Martok and Gowron are basically from the pro-Fed school of Klingon thought.
Again, if you toss the novels and all the Klingon fandom's accumulated lore and focus strictly on filmed shows, almost every Klingon is friendly to the Federation OR the Romulans and they represent basically two totally different views on honor within Klingon society.
Anti-Federation Klingons on the shows are intensely pro-Romulan. Anti-Romulan Klingons are generally grudgingly or condescendingly friendly towards humans.
It is one or the other. It's not both. The combination of those ideas only happens if you try to construct a composite Klingon culture that agrees with everything a Klingon personally believed on the shows and that isn't how culture works. Cultures are not monolithic and it SIMPLIFIES Klingons to make them monolithic by trying to make the larger society reflect the tastes and prejudices of each member from the shows, when the shows clearly showed at least one major point of division.
And that is whether a given Klingon is pro-Romulan/anti-Fed or pro-Fed/anti-Romulan.
I think you are thinking this through far more than the game has. Would you disagree with that?
The Klingons helping Romulans story is pretty reasonable, imo. There's lots of loose ends, stories that can be told about those not content with it, but it doesn't fly against canon as much as it may seem.
Klingons have acted against their prejudices before when it becomes necessary or very practical. They had to accept help from the Federation after their moon blew up. And as much as some Klingons may hate all romulans, many more can probably agree that helping some non-threatening romulans is preferable to being harassed by marauding Tal Shiar.
What sort of things made Klingons hate romulans in the first place? Surprise raids on Khitomer, sneaky betrayals, subterfuge. Everything the Tal Shiar stands for. Now that individual romulans can afford to distance themselves from these policies, klingons would have to be stupid to not at least consider helping out, just for stability on their borders.
Klingons are no strangers to interference. They armed pre-warp peoples back in TOS days. They like to justify their efforts by honor, and stay away from the sneakier strategies, but saying 'it's against canon' goes against numerous examples of how things like this are reasonable. And it's not like they're ignoring dissent among klingons, since you fight romulan-hating klingons in a patrol.
Yeah. If anything, once I got J'mpok's backstory, it no longer made sense to me that he was anti-Romulan. He's backed by the Houses of Torg and Duras. If anything, he should probably be allied WITH the Tal Shiar against the Federation... and Worf should probably be against the action on New Romulus but then he's from the part of Klingon society that has no political voice right now. He's banned from the Great Hall and the House of Martok is basically BELOW the Gorn and Orions in the social hierarchy, as Kestrel has established it.
The Klingons helping Romulans story is pretty reasonable, imo. There's lots of loose ends, stories that can be told about those not content with it, but it doesn't fly against canon as much as it may seem.
Klingons have acted against their prejudices before when it becomes necessary or very practical. They had to accept help from the Federation after their moon blew up. And as much as some Klingons may hate all romulans, many more can probably agree that helping some non-threatening romulans is preferable to being harassed by marauding Tal Shiar.
What sort of things made Klingons hate romulans in the first place? Surprise raids on Khitomer, sneaky betrayals, subterfuge. Everything the Tal Shiar stands for. Now that individual romulans can afford to distance themselves from these policies, klingons would have to be stupid to not at least consider helping out, just for stability on their borders.
Klingons are no strangers to interference. They armed pre-warp peoples back in TOS days. They like to justify their efforts by honor, and stay away from the sneakier strategies, but saying 'it's against canon' goes against numerous examples of how things like this are reasonable. And it's not like they're ignoring dissent among klingons, since you fight romulan-hating klingons in a patrol.
Again, this is a great post. Do you think the game has thought through it as much as you have here? Are there dialogues that indicate that the game is as self-aware of canon as you are?
Cultures are not monolithic and it SIMPLIFIES Klingons to make them monolithic by trying to make the larger society reflect the tastes and prejudices of each member from the shows, when the shows clearly showed at least one major point of division.
Another thing to keep in mind is that the Romulans appeared very monolithic to outsiders throughout the television show eras. They had dissenters, but they had to work hard to only show this side to sympathetic eyes. The Empire's policy was stone, and good officers had to stick with the story to be successful. Sneakiness and trickery were government policy, and so all the faces shown to outsiders were well-versed in these tactics.
Now that many romulans are just poor refugee workers, the Klingons have had decades to get to know these 'new' romulans. And they don't seem like the kind of people that it would be 'honorable' to fight. A stereotype reinforced by rigid RSE policies has finally been broken up by the reality of widespread, needy romulans. Maybe Klingons are hungry for the honor that comes from protecting the weak, not just the joy of combat for its own sake.
Take a look at my Foundry missions! Conjoined, Re-emergence, and . . .
Yeah. If anything, once I got J'mpok's backstory, it no longer made sense to me that he was anti-Romulan. He's backed by the Houses of Torg and Duras. If anything, he should probably be allied WITH the Tal Shiar against the Federation... and Worf should probably be against the action on New Romulus but then he's from the part of Klingon society that has no political voice right now. He's banned from the Great Hall and the House of Martok is basically BELOW the Gorn and Orions in the social hierarchy, as Kestrel has established it.
What part of this comes from the game and not some website or blog post? Or, what part comes from the game and not some outside novel? I'd like the game to please explain itself and not rely on third-party folks who seem to care about story or plot, please.
Again, this is a great post. Do you think the game has thought through it as much as you have here? Are there dialogues that indicate that the game is as self-aware of canon as you are?
I have no doubt that Christine has thought through these things. What ends up in-game is a little more abbreviated, but the main points are there. Here's what I remember off the top of my head:
Klingons referenced Praxis when saying they could have been in a similar position to the Romulans. (may have been website, though)
Romulan-hating captain in space patrol mission is working against KDF policy
Klingon contact says peaceful Romulans are preferable to the warlike Romulans they've seen in the past.
Sure, it doesn't spell out every little detail, but did the shows ever do that when they introduced something ground-breaking? We saw Klingons at peace with the Federation years before we saw how that happened.
To answer your question, no, it's not all in the game, but Trek fans have gotten used to absorbing information from auxiliary sources. As long as the story's there to be found, I'm fine with it. I recognize that you aren't.
Just out of curiosity, do you consider the lore logs to be in-game?
Take a look at my Foundry missions! Conjoined, Re-emergence, and . . .
Another thing to keep in mind is that the Romulans appeared very monolithic to outsiders throughout the television show eras. They had dissenters, but they had to work hard to only show this side to sympathetic eyes. The Empire's policy was stone, and good officers had to stick with the story to be successful. Sneakiness and trickery were government policy, and so all the faces shown to outsiders were well-versed in these tactics.
Now that many romulans are just poor refugee workers, the Klingons have had decades to get to know these 'new' romulans. And they don't seem like the kind of people that it would be 'honorable' to fight. A stereotype reinforced by rigid RSE policies has finally been broken up by the reality of widespread, needy romulans. Maybe Klingons are hungry for the honor that comes from protecting the weak, not just the joy of combat for its own sake.
THIS^ is why I loved Nemesis! It gave us an inside view of why the Romulans do what they do.
To answer your question, no, it's not all in the game, but Trek fans have gotten used to absorbing information from auxiliary sources. As long as the story's there to be found, I'm fine with it. I recognize that you aren't.
Just out of curiosity, do you consider the lore logs to be in-game?
I just can't imagine playing Mario Bros. where I had to rely on 3rd party info to tell me why the princess was important, in terms of saving her. It's like everyone is grasping for straws for anything, anywhere that makes the plot, story, or basic rationale for this game to make sense on any basic level of Trek lore.
As far as the lore missions, I think it was a disservice to the original writer that Cryptic just tossed it all out the window. It's like there was a writer who did his/her best to provide a plot to this game and nobody cared. It got chopped up like sushi when it fit some kind of corporate rationale. Now, we're all left asking WTF is the story of this game.
THIS GAME NO LONGER HAS A STORY THAT MAKES SENSE.
It's not the fault of a writer who dared to care about the story.
I just can't imagine playing Mario Bros. where I had to rely on 3rd party info to tell me why the princess was important, in terms of saving her. It's like everyone is grasping for straws for anything, anywhere that makes the plot, story, or basic rationale for this game to make sense on any basic level of Trek lore.
As far as the lore missions, I think it was a disservice to the original writer that Cryptic just tossed it all out the window. It's like there was a writer who did his/her best to provide a plot to this game and nobody cared. It got chopped up like sushi when it fit some kind of corporate rationale. Now, we're all left asking WTF is the story of this game.
THIS GAME NO LONGER HAS A STORY THAT MAKES SENSE.
It's not the fault of a writer who dared to care about the story.
Don't give up hope yet - The cutscenes from the Romulan Reputation System will help get things back on track and lead up to the next chapter in Romulans / Iconians. Season 8 has a lot more story information that will move the story forward and focused back on Fed vs. KDF and how the Romulans are caught in between but perhaps a key component to what will ultimately resolve the KDF/Fed war.
I agree that it is is sort of all over the place with the addition of the Feature Episodes into the Episode logs, but we are making a serious effort over the next 3 seasons to correct this, starting with Season 7 and New Romulus.
Don't give up hope yet - The cutscenes from the Romulan Reputation System will help get things back on track and lead up to the next chapter in Romulans / Iconians. Season 8 has a lot more story information that will move the story forward and focused back on Fed vs. KDF and how the Romulans are caught in between but perhaps a key component to what will ultimately resolve the KDF/Fed war.
I agree that it is is sort of all over the place with the addition of the Feature Episodes into the Episode logs, but we are making a serious effort over the next 3 seasons to correct this, starting with Season 7 and New Romulus.
LOL
If I said more to this, I'd get banned for sure. But that's the funniest joke I've read in ages. Thanks. I needed a good laugh.
___________________
"There is no problem in the universe that can't be solved with a bribe, a paid assassin, or an overpowered fighter." - Chubain from Jumpgate Evolution
Don't give up hope yet - The cutscenes from the Romulan Reputation System will help get things back on track and lead up to the next chapter in Romulans / Iconians. Season 8 has a lot more story information that will move the story forward and focused back on Fed vs. KDF and how the Romulans are caught in between but perhaps a key component to what will ultimately resolve the KDF/Fed war.
I agree that it is is sort of all over the place with the addition of the Feature Episodes into the Episode logs, but we are making a serious effort over the next 3 seasons to correct this, starting with Season 7 and New Romulus.
I hope so. Nothing about this war or the interaction between the two powers makes any kind of sense at the current point in time.
♪ I'm going around not in circles but in spirographs.
It's pretty much this hard to keep just one timeline intact. ♪
hmm... I remember them saying S7 was going to be about story when S6 launched.
Sure, the next season will always be the one with Story content ... the next FE will be 5 Grind Missions in a new tab (Season 8)... and everyone including Dstahl is gonna tell us ... "Season 9 will be new Epic Storytelling ..."
Stopped playing after Season 6, because lack of Story, and was hoping for a glorious return ... guess I have to support "Robert Space Industries" instead and get my hopes from there
Don't give up hope yet - The cutscenes from the Romulan Reputation System will help get things back on track and lead up to the next chapter in Romulans / Iconians. Season 8 has a lot more story information that will move the story forward and focused back on Fed vs. KDF and how the Romulans are caught in between but perhaps a key component to what will ultimately resolve the KDF/Fed war.
I agree that it is is sort of all over the place with the addition of the Feature Episodes into the Episode logs, but we are making a serious effort over the next 3 seasons to correct this, starting with Season 7 and New Romulus.
Sorry but thats almosty cynical after telling us "Season 7" will all about new ways to advance Story Content yadda yadda ... why should we still believe in it ... Season 7 looks more like advancing an endless "Carrot on a
stick - Grindfest" ... to be continued with Season 8, 9 ....
Comments
Yup. In fact, there's one episode where Worf is, by the writers' admission, portrayed deliberately as an anti-Romulan racist who was confronted with this when he met half-Klingon, half-Romulans.
In general, if you don't take character opinions like Worf's as gospel, almost every Klingon we see supports EITHER the Romulans OR the Federation... and every Klingon who is an enemy of the Federation is friendly towards the Romulans and vice versa. The novels may not jive perfectly with that but I think the novels are frequently written from imperfect observations of the shows.
I think there's probably a strong case to be made that Klingon-Federation hostilities were always fueled by third parties, the Romulans in particular... and the Tal Shiar and Romulan military in particular, which I'm unconvinced represents the typical Romulan.
Take a look back. The Klingons and Federation entered times of peace whenever the Klingons and Romulans weren't allies and almost every Klingon who opposed the Federation from TNG on was Romulan allied.
The instance we have of a Federation-Klingon War timeline in TNG was provoked by the Romulans and I think it's pretty sound to suggest that was their goal.
Then look at what little we know of Mirror Romulans and Mirror history. It would appear that the major difference is earth history until First Contact. And what did the humans do? They enslaved the Vulcans. And how did they manage to enslave a warp capable society with one stolen science vessel? And then by DS9, we have this portrait of the Romulans remaining neutral but backing the humans covertly against the Klingons. And suddenly the humans managed to rebuild a fallen empire in 30 years. With what resources? The Terrans have a backer.
And what do the Terrans and Romulans have in common? Roman styling.
My take is that in BOTH universes, the Romulans have tried to manipulate the Federation and humans in particular into getting locked into a costly, unending war with the Klingons until both groups are depleted.
In the Mirror Universe, the big difference is that the Romulans were successful. I'd wager that they armed Cochrane and the folks in Bozeman and pushed them into enslaving the Vulcans as their first act. My reasonable guess is that Romulans backed the Terrans the whole time.
And how far back the divergence goes depends on whether the literature and history books in the Mirror Enterprise era were authentic or forged and whether the opening credits are canon and even then whether they are historical recordings (which can be faked) or actual events. My gut says that with WWIII happening the same though, that the Mirror Universe wasn't actually different until the 21st century and that the Romulans swooped in and did an Orwellian revision of Earth culture. The Terran moon landing, etc. was all fake to take advantage of a people whose records were destroyed.
My character Tsin'xing
You guys are trying to twist canon in a way that fits a game that doesn't seem to care much about canon, don't you think?
Well, season 7 isn't really about story but it has some good potential, and there are mini episodes on new romulus. You unlock them with reputation tiers, here story is the reward (so said cryptic). I've been able to play the staging area mission - tier 1 reward -, it's a nice little story.
I think you can watch again the cutscene you get at the begining, there's a console for this near the transporter pad.
There's not much story, to be honnest, but the planet has some good potential. In the cutscene you learn the planet is a former Romulan colony, there are ruins, a mystery about radiations, you get clues when you talk to researchers about animals, etc. I just hope it won't be wasted and that it won't be unfinished for ages like the undine story arc.
There's another story you unlock as reward for playing content: you get datachips from the Romulan historian (play red alerts), i'm trying to complete my collection and it's going pretty well until now. Soon i'll be able to read the full story.
What's sad with season 7 is that it's a good start, but just a start though. We're still waiting for it to be developped, and I fear that Cryptic could just move onto the next rep, build a similar zone with a lot of potential, and repeat it over and over without really finishing what they started. Considering how they treated episodes before, it's likely to happen. Or we can get a lousy episode to solve the mystery, learn something disappointing, because they wouldn't put enough attention or money into it.
My favourite area is the ruins, I think it's the best zone on this planet, it's somewhat inspiring and could lead to a good episode. I'll give them a chance and wait for season 8 to see if it's not another unfinished job or wasted potential but i'm rather skeptical.
God, lvl 60 CW. 17k.
This is the part that made me pause and ask, "Ok, is there really a story here, or are the radiation samples just there to give me something to scan 5/5? Is there a point in what I'm doing? Do the ruins have some kind of significance?
I really hope all of the tasks somehow relate to a story, but with Cryptic's record... well, yeah, maybe I'm just grinding to grind.
What is this crazy radiation? What are these stones? What are these creatures beyond something to scan? We get a little bit of detail from npcs, but I have absolutely no clue how any of it relates to anything resembling a story.
Hopefully that will change as I level up. For now, I run around with random tasks to do.
I'm just really, really hopeful that there is some kind of "there" there. If not, I'm wasting my time scanning radiation, tagging slugs, and collecting water samples. Do any of my tasks relate to anything resembling a story? I really hope so.
If not, I'm just part of some kind of timer level system that is pointless in the end. "Hey you, go collect 5 burritos, and you'll get a cookie. The plot, you ask? The monster likes cookies."
If there is no effort to explain the radiation, then it is uber-story fail. If the slug folks have no bearing on anything, then it is uber-story stupid.
If they tease me with the details of a story that has NO follow-through as far as a plot, then I might as well give up at the first sign of pointlessness.
The ruins, radiation, and possibly the stones and crater, however, all probably have some significance later on. Especially the ruins, seeing as the Tholians are intensely interested in them.
But the animals are probably just animals, the Hirogen are just jerks, the plants are just plants, and the Epohhs are just adorable. The only story significance is these are things that you kind of would need to learn about when you're colonizing a new planet. So at least it makes sense in the setting's context even if it ultimately isn't relevant to the plot.
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My character Tsin'xing
Interesting. What would you say if a new series, or film, came about in which the writers had the Romulans and Klingons forming another strong alliance together? We can complain about previous canon being ignored but at some point stories, and the universe they take place in, have to progress forward and not become static.
The idea that these two factions would forever be enemies makes them seem less like real races and characters. STO does need to do a much better job of getting its point across in this regard, but I'd never begrudge them for trying different things.
Commanding Officer: Captain Pyotr Ramonovich Amosov
Dedication Plaque: "Nil Intentatum Reliquit"
Well, maybe it is about "story". They keep telling stories about what upcoming seasons will actually contain.
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Did you complete tier one and start running tier one content? It's got voice overs...
Are you doing the space a patrol daily?
You can re run the initial cut scene by going to one of the consoles where you first beam into New Romulus.
But, see this sounds to me like, "There is no reason that a group of Borg can't be spies for Section 31, since there is an example of Hue's followers being manipulated by Lore." Still, you know? Borg working for the Federation is kind of like Happy Days jumping the shark, unless it's a liberated Borg or something.
This game just throws the curve ball, and it then expects us to reason out the possibilities on our own, despite what canon taught us (unless maybe some blog explains the plot of the game).
So, I think maybe WE are putting more effort into explaining it than the Cryptic team has done. Plain and simple, give the KDF something equal but separate to do. Maybe they'll ignore the plot holes.
Next: Attend a fully clothed Bajoran wedding due to the rating of the game. At some point, we have to say, "WTF!"
I don't begrudge anyone for trying something different. But, how about explaining it, please?
What does the game tell us, in between when we are killing Romulans and helping Romulans? "There was a new system added to the game which contradicts the original story. Please stand by..."
"By the way... Vulcans and Romulans are now subjects of the Dominion. Feel free to speculate about that. We'll give you cool ships to blow up. BOOM!"
There is a dev blog explaining J'mpok's motives somewhere. Basically J'mpok sees it as a form of conquest. But also a long term solution to their issues with wars vs multiple enemies.
My character Tsin'xing
Yeah, I'm thinking of Betazoid weddings, sorry. I'm not sure why I wrote Bajoran there.
I want the game to explain to me what is going on. Dev blogs are not part of the game. Path to 2409 on some third party website is not part of the game.
What is part of the game?
Can you imagine going to a movie, seeing something that makes NO SENSE, and having a fellow patron tell you, "Hey, if you visit this website, it tries to explain the plot of this movie, sort of."
What is the plot here? Please tell me where in the game. Hopefully I'll find it as I level.
Do they really think that we don't care, and if we do care, then we're perfectly capable of doing extra credit research to understand what is going on, beyond killing bad guys?
Martok and Gowron are basically from the pro-Fed school of Klingon thought.
Again, if you toss the novels and all the Klingon fandom's accumulated lore and focus strictly on filmed shows, almost every Klingon is friendly to the Federation OR the Romulans and they represent basically two totally different views on honor within Klingon society.
Anti-Federation Klingons on the shows are intensely pro-Romulan. Anti-Romulan Klingons are generally grudgingly or condescendingly friendly towards humans.
It is one or the other. It's not both. The combination of those ideas only happens if you try to construct a composite Klingon culture that agrees with everything a Klingon personally believed on the shows and that isn't how culture works. Cultures are not monolithic and it SIMPLIFIES Klingons to make them monolithic by trying to make the larger society reflect the tastes and prejudices of each member from the shows, when the shows clearly showed at least one major point of division.
And that is whether a given Klingon is pro-Romulan/anti-Fed or pro-Fed/anti-Romulan.
Klingons have acted against their prejudices before when it becomes necessary or very practical. They had to accept help from the Federation after their moon blew up. And as much as some Klingons may hate all romulans, many more can probably agree that helping some non-threatening romulans is preferable to being harassed by marauding Tal Shiar.
What sort of things made Klingons hate romulans in the first place? Surprise raids on Khitomer, sneaky betrayals, subterfuge. Everything the Tal Shiar stands for. Now that individual romulans can afford to distance themselves from these policies, klingons would have to be stupid to not at least consider helping out, just for stability on their borders.
Klingons are no strangers to interference. They armed pre-warp peoples back in TOS days. They like to justify their efforts by honor, and stay away from the sneakier strategies, but saying 'it's against canon' goes against numerous examples of how things like this are reasonable. And it's not like they're ignoring dissent among klingons, since you fight romulan-hating klingons in a patrol.
Conjoined, Re-emergence, and . . .
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I think you are thinking this through far more than the game has. Would you disagree with that?
Yeah. If anything, once I got J'mpok's backstory, it no longer made sense to me that he was anti-Romulan. He's backed by the Houses of Torg and Duras. If anything, he should probably be allied WITH the Tal Shiar against the Federation... and Worf should probably be against the action on New Romulus but then he's from the part of Klingon society that has no political voice right now. He's banned from the Great Hall and the House of Martok is basically BELOW the Gorn and Orions in the social hierarchy, as Kestrel has established it.
Again, this is a great post. Do you think the game has thought through it as much as you have here? Are there dialogues that indicate that the game is as self-aware of canon as you are?
Another thing to keep in mind is that the Romulans appeared very monolithic to outsiders throughout the television show eras. They had dissenters, but they had to work hard to only show this side to sympathetic eyes. The Empire's policy was stone, and good officers had to stick with the story to be successful. Sneakiness and trickery were government policy, and so all the faces shown to outsiders were well-versed in these tactics.
Now that many romulans are just poor refugee workers, the Klingons have had decades to get to know these 'new' romulans. And they don't seem like the kind of people that it would be 'honorable' to fight. A stereotype reinforced by rigid RSE policies has finally been broken up by the reality of widespread, needy romulans. Maybe Klingons are hungry for the honor that comes from protecting the weak, not just the joy of combat for its own sake.
Conjoined, Re-emergence, and . . .
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
What part of this comes from the game and not some website or blog post? Or, what part comes from the game and not some outside novel? I'd like the game to please explain itself and not rely on third-party folks who seem to care about story or plot, please.
I have no doubt that Christine has thought through these things. What ends up in-game is a little more abbreviated, but the main points are there. Here's what I remember off the top of my head:
Klingons referenced Praxis when saying they could have been in a similar position to the Romulans. (may have been website, though)
Romulan-hating captain in space patrol mission is working against KDF policy
Klingon contact says peaceful Romulans are preferable to the warlike Romulans they've seen in the past.
Sure, it doesn't spell out every little detail, but did the shows ever do that when they introduced something ground-breaking? We saw Klingons at peace with the Federation years before we saw how that happened.
To answer your question, no, it's not all in the game, but Trek fans have gotten used to absorbing information from auxiliary sources. As long as the story's there to be found, I'm fine with it. I recognize that you aren't.
Just out of curiosity, do you consider the lore logs to be in-game?
Conjoined, Re-emergence, and . . .
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
My character Tsin'xing
I just can't imagine playing Mario Bros. where I had to rely on 3rd party info to tell me why the princess was important, in terms of saving her. It's like everyone is grasping for straws for anything, anywhere that makes the plot, story, or basic rationale for this game to make sense on any basic level of Trek lore.
As far as the lore missions, I think it was a disservice to the original writer that Cryptic just tossed it all out the window. It's like there was a writer who did his/her best to provide a plot to this game and nobody cared. It got chopped up like sushi when it fit some kind of corporate rationale. Now, we're all left asking WTF is the story of this game.
THIS GAME NO LONGER HAS A STORY THAT MAKES SENSE.
It's not the fault of a writer who dared to care about the story.
Don't give up hope yet - The cutscenes from the Romulan Reputation System will help get things back on track and lead up to the next chapter in Romulans / Iconians. Season 8 has a lot more story information that will move the story forward and focused back on Fed vs. KDF and how the Romulans are caught in between but perhaps a key component to what will ultimately resolve the KDF/Fed war.
I agree that it is is sort of all over the place with the addition of the Feature Episodes into the Episode logs, but we are making a serious effort over the next 3 seasons to correct this, starting with Season 7 and New Romulus.
LOL
If I said more to this, I'd get banned for sure. But that's the funniest joke I've read in ages. Thanks. I needed a good laugh.
"There is no problem in the universe that can't be solved with a bribe, a paid assassin, or an overpowered fighter." - Chubain from Jumpgate Evolution
I hope so. Nothing about this war or the interaction between the two powers makes any kind of sense at the current point in time.
It's pretty much this hard to keep just one timeline intact. ♪
Sure, the next season will always be the one with Story content ... the next FE will be 5 Grind Missions in a new tab (Season 8)... and everyone including Dstahl is gonna tell us ... "Season 9 will be new Epic Storytelling ..."
Stopped playing after Season 6, because lack of Story, and was hoping for a glorious return ... guess I have to support "Robert Space Industries" instead and get my hopes from there
Sorry but thats almosty cynical after telling us "Season 7" will all about new ways to advance Story Content yadda yadda ... why should we still believe in it ... Season 7 looks more like advancing an endless "Carrot on a
stick - Grindfest" ... to be continued with Season 8, 9 ....
Wow congrats, exactly the same statement from Season 7