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A perspective from our fleet members
nicha0
Member Posts: 1,456 Arc User
I wanted to post some feedback that I hear in our fleet from those that don't normally enter the forums. We all know that forum users are a tiny percentage of the playerbase so their opinion is often excused as not entirely valid.
As someone who is now leading a medium sized fleet of 75 members I have a lot to deal with, I didn't join wanting to be in this position but here I am. When I hear of fleet member's concerns about the changes I have no positive answers to give them.
At the start of season 6 we'd have over 20 members on at a time, up to 30, by the end of season 6 the number was down, to be expected, to around 10 or so average but still peaking over 20. During season 7 so far it is 4-5, except for the first night but they dropped like flies early in the night.
The fleet is very average, we try to increase members skills but many are just very casual players. Over the time I see nearly all of them playing STFs and none are doing older fleet actions, we often play together on STFs, fleet actions for marks, and other activities. I do like to think our fleet is special, we have a lot of close people, and we play together frequently, it isn't just a chat room, we work together and achieve goals.
The comments I see from PMs and in fleet chat are like this....
New Romulus comments
"New Romulus is gorgeous but there is nothing to do. "
"New Romulus is boring, what a waste"
"Whats the point of New Romulus?"
There are a dozen variations on this, why so much development time if there is no content here?
The most concerning comments are:
"I already have a job, I don't want another"
we got one last night "well this looks like it for me, this isn't even fun anymore"
"This feels like I'm working"
Basically, people don't want to work, then come home to relax and have to work again. This is a game not a job, but S7 really has turned it into a job. I am not having any fun either, which means as a company you have failed.
"They took stuff away from everything I like to do"
"I don't want to play fleet actions"
"I don't understand the reputation system"
"Why don't I get any loot?"
"What is a reputation system?"
The average player has no clue WTH happened in S7. They are annoyed and frustrated.
Our starbase is nearly T4, we have been making steady progress, about 1k xp a day on average weekdays and 2k on weekends. Thats over. We don't get enough marks for one project a day now. Our fleet use to run Defera nightly in groups to get some marks, but now we are getting 60% of what we used to there, so that is basically out. Officer Reports is gone so those marks are out for the very casual players who used to be able to contribute a little, now can't contribute anything. This makes people feel useless.
So 3 days in, and we have already instead of a player increase, we are down 50% active, I'll admit my time in game is at 50% as well, I'm saying to myself "Whats the point?" We have players, good awesome people, so down by the changes they are leaving. We have a lot of players on the fence, there are so many complaints that the game feels like work and they don't want that stress, I know we'll lose more.
So what mistakes were made?
New Romulus - Gorgeous but pointless, its vast, its empty, its boring. So many hours put into creating something that just isn't worth it. It can be fixed..
STFs - Other than the crazy difficulty change, whats the point for having 8 different missions now? Its all bland, its the same thing. Lockboxes sell because of gambling, STFs were played because of the same reason, now there is no real point. Bring instant gratification back, make people EXCITED again. The vault wasn't played before because it was a low quality grinding reward, don't turn STFs into the same thing.. well you already did, but don't keep it that way.
Dilithium and marks - Obviously changed to make the game more profitable, it will undoubtedly backfire and create fewer players, these things tend to chain react. You made the game into a resource grind, its a job, you need to grind onto every resource there is to get less than before. It isn't fun, its work. Here is some news. The people that pay your bills are the mature working class, this is a lot of our fleet, we have income to spend on fun games. What people don't want is to come home from work, to unwind by working harder on a game. If you lose the people that pay, the F2P will not have ways to earn their money.. its a balance all F2P games need.
I have a feeling most of the resource removals are based on the multi character exploits. It would have been wiser to remove the ability to transfer huge amounts of dilithium across characters instead of penalizing every player in the game. You made the wrong decision, it will cost you. It was probably easy enough to do, create a 2nd style of zen where once its been converted once it can't be again and gets character bound on the dil exchange.
Reputation system - The casual players are completely clueless what this is, how to use it, that it even exists. What a terrible non-introduction.
Removal of efficiency - Sometimes its OK to have time limited missions to gain things faster than other ways. By removing B'Tran and the console clicking you essentially killed off the ability of the casual player to log on, spend less than an hour online and get stuff done. This complaint is 2nd only to the "feels like a 2nd job" complaint, and directly tied to it. Whats the big deal if every 24 hours someone could double up on a single dilithium mission? Its not even a 20 hr daily, its 24 hrs which means you are going to miss the recycle time and push it further back each day missing some. When progress feels lost, people quit games, not just here but everywhere.
Ultimately, I doubt I'll get a response to this, I doubt it will affect anything. I love change, but this wasn't a good change. I do really want to keep playing, to have our fleet online and having fun again, working together to achieve goals; but the morale after just 3 days is frightening.
As someone who is now leading a medium sized fleet of 75 members I have a lot to deal with, I didn't join wanting to be in this position but here I am. When I hear of fleet member's concerns about the changes I have no positive answers to give them.
At the start of season 6 we'd have over 20 members on at a time, up to 30, by the end of season 6 the number was down, to be expected, to around 10 or so average but still peaking over 20. During season 7 so far it is 4-5, except for the first night but they dropped like flies early in the night.
The fleet is very average, we try to increase members skills but many are just very casual players. Over the time I see nearly all of them playing STFs and none are doing older fleet actions, we often play together on STFs, fleet actions for marks, and other activities. I do like to think our fleet is special, we have a lot of close people, and we play together frequently, it isn't just a chat room, we work together and achieve goals.
The comments I see from PMs and in fleet chat are like this....
New Romulus comments
"New Romulus is gorgeous but there is nothing to do. "
"New Romulus is boring, what a waste"
"Whats the point of New Romulus?"
There are a dozen variations on this, why so much development time if there is no content here?
The most concerning comments are:
"I already have a job, I don't want another"
we got one last night "well this looks like it for me, this isn't even fun anymore"
"This feels like I'm working"
Basically, people don't want to work, then come home to relax and have to work again. This is a game not a job, but S7 really has turned it into a job. I am not having any fun either, which means as a company you have failed.
"They took stuff away from everything I like to do"
"I don't want to play fleet actions"
"I don't understand the reputation system"
"Why don't I get any loot?"
"What is a reputation system?"
The average player has no clue WTH happened in S7. They are annoyed and frustrated.
Our starbase is nearly T4, we have been making steady progress, about 1k xp a day on average weekdays and 2k on weekends. Thats over. We don't get enough marks for one project a day now. Our fleet use to run Defera nightly in groups to get some marks, but now we are getting 60% of what we used to there, so that is basically out. Officer Reports is gone so those marks are out for the very casual players who used to be able to contribute a little, now can't contribute anything. This makes people feel useless.
So 3 days in, and we have already instead of a player increase, we are down 50% active, I'll admit my time in game is at 50% as well, I'm saying to myself "Whats the point?" We have players, good awesome people, so down by the changes they are leaving. We have a lot of players on the fence, there are so many complaints that the game feels like work and they don't want that stress, I know we'll lose more.
So what mistakes were made?
New Romulus - Gorgeous but pointless, its vast, its empty, its boring. So many hours put into creating something that just isn't worth it. It can be fixed..
STFs - Other than the crazy difficulty change, whats the point for having 8 different missions now? Its all bland, its the same thing. Lockboxes sell because of gambling, STFs were played because of the same reason, now there is no real point. Bring instant gratification back, make people EXCITED again. The vault wasn't played before because it was a low quality grinding reward, don't turn STFs into the same thing.. well you already did, but don't keep it that way.
Dilithium and marks - Obviously changed to make the game more profitable, it will undoubtedly backfire and create fewer players, these things tend to chain react. You made the game into a resource grind, its a job, you need to grind onto every resource there is to get less than before. It isn't fun, its work. Here is some news. The people that pay your bills are the mature working class, this is a lot of our fleet, we have income to spend on fun games. What people don't want is to come home from work, to unwind by working harder on a game. If you lose the people that pay, the F2P will not have ways to earn their money.. its a balance all F2P games need.
I have a feeling most of the resource removals are based on the multi character exploits. It would have been wiser to remove the ability to transfer huge amounts of dilithium across characters instead of penalizing every player in the game. You made the wrong decision, it will cost you. It was probably easy enough to do, create a 2nd style of zen where once its been converted once it can't be again and gets character bound on the dil exchange.
Reputation system - The casual players are completely clueless what this is, how to use it, that it even exists. What a terrible non-introduction.
Removal of efficiency - Sometimes its OK to have time limited missions to gain things faster than other ways. By removing B'Tran and the console clicking you essentially killed off the ability of the casual player to log on, spend less than an hour online and get stuff done. This complaint is 2nd only to the "feels like a 2nd job" complaint, and directly tied to it. Whats the big deal if every 24 hours someone could double up on a single dilithium mission? Its not even a 20 hr daily, its 24 hrs which means you are going to miss the recycle time and push it further back each day missing some. When progress feels lost, people quit games, not just here but everywhere.
Ultimately, I doubt I'll get a response to this, I doubt it will affect anything. I love change, but this wasn't a good change. I do really want to keep playing, to have our fleet online and having fun again, working together to achieve goals; but the morale after just 3 days is frightening.
Delirium Tremens
Completed Starbase, Embassy, Mine, Spire and No Win Scenario
Nothing to do anymore.
http://dtfleet.com/
Visit our Youtube channel
Completed Starbase, Embassy, Mine, Spire and No Win Scenario
Nothing to do anymore.
http://dtfleet.com/
Visit our Youtube channel
Post edited by nicha0 on
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and we have 5 projects to feed. plus the 2 upgrades. (4x210, 2x420, 1100 fleet marks needed)
you do not expect us to grind now the same stuff for 3 weeks just to advance these missions cryptic, are you?
solution - split accounts with more than 12 characters (or 10, or whatever). let them pay for their free dill and get the "Fleet Marks" party started again!
I don't see why a toon could not see some free 50 Fleet Marks JUST FOR LOGGING in.
A DAY.
What I'm hoping for is that some unique items appear on Romulus. Items that will be used in a future crafting system. I honestly believe that crafting should not involve items that float everywhere in space. It you need on particular item, you should go to where it's found, not go to an expanse or do DOFF missions.
Apart from that, I'm liking where the reputation system is going. I would have preferred more than two passive skills to choose from when you go up a reputation tier, but systems like this will start to see truly uniquely skilled toons appearing. Yes, races have differences but they don't seem as pronounce as the differing abilities the reputation system appears to give us. I just hope they never allow us to to have all of the passive abilities at the same time. That would take away the individuality that the current system seems to offer.
Yes, New Romulus is beautiful - I've wandered it's entirety and completed the daily missions in each area. I've collected enough Omega and Romulan marks to begin reputation projects - but I fear that is where the issue lies for me. As many areas don't open up until I've reached a certain Tier, I can't explore any more, and while I'm waiting for the reputation projects to complete (40 hours per), I don't feel any "pressure" to run out and grind more STFs or Romulan Mark rewarding missions - even though I know I'll need them for future projects. So I kinda feel a little "meh".
I suppose with all the changes (Fleet Marks ESPECIALLY included in this) I feel like we're really in it for the long haul. I don't mind the long haul, but I've often felt before that many things were "within reach" and pushed me to play more and want to find the time to play. I just don't feel that push right now. I'm not exactly trying to complain, but the fact is S7 is cooling off my "need" to play, and if I cool off too much, I may start looking elsewhere to spend my precious entertainment time (and money).
or they are pointless
You do realize people paid for those extra character slots,right? Not to mention all things account bound that people have paid for....I say: hell no!
Take back your home,end the grind!
Volunteer moderators policing the forums is like a mall cop trying to solve a murder.
I really wish people would stop bringing up this bullsnot when making their arguments "against" Season 7. You have to realize it was a series of exploits that got fixed. They've told us flat-out, time and again, that Dilithium earnings are supposed to be based on time spent playing. If you can get as much from a single 5-minute clickfest (Foundry Clickie Exploit) as running a series of missions that could take up to an hour, then it was BROKEN and needed to be fixed.
Don't complain about having your earnings potential stripped away - you were exploiting a failure in their system. Which they have now fixed. You're wasting your time complaining about that, and not acknowledging that it was a long-overdue FIX just smacks of entitlement and greed.
As for New Romulus having "nothing to do"? Are you mental? I've already spent hours there, and am only like halfway thru the missions. And then there's the Reputation-based mission unlocks that I'll have to come back and experience as I progress thru that system.
Talos Force out.
pwebranflakes: this system is currently in place and working the way it should.
moradum: I got banned for saying "I started my day with cutting off 3 MM off of the bottom of my cabinet"
Season 7 in New Romulus, Embassies and Reputation.
How is B'Tran an exploit? It was designed to give you double the dilithium. The is NO reason for the 2nd mission to exist without it as a level 50 only mission doesn't give expertise as a logical reward.
The console clicking is hard to call an exploit when they full well knew it was being done, then they added fleet marks to it. So they intentionally gave more rewards to an exploit? This is bull. The foundry itself not giving rewards is its own problem that they need to fix.
These aren't only my opinions, these are what I hear from my fleet, the non-vocal. New Romulus is dull, look at the dozens of complaints about it, run around and hitting the f button is not content. The unlocks for the reputation system (I've done 2) are not nearly as exciting as you think they are going to be, it just a very small daily quest with no real reward. You play them once and never go back.
No, they shouldn't remove people's character slots, but the first time I found out you could transfer all your dilithium to other characters my jaw dropped, its clearly exploitative, it wasn't meant to be but they do nothing about it. But is the solution to penalize everyone for those abusing the system?
We've seen rages against changes before, but this isn't a rage threat, people are demoralized and leaving, its happening if people believe it or not.
I suggested a daily log on "bonus" for characters once and close the console clicking. Many games do this, it ramps up the bonus you get over time to a certain maximum for logging in every day, it keeps people logging in and the game in their head. If they miss a day it resets to the lowest amount. Making customers feel appreciated is important, but I've never seen a game where the F2P currency is transferable
Completed Starbase, Embassy, Mine, Spire and No Win Scenario
Nothing to do anymore.
http://dtfleet.com/
Visit our Youtube channel
Exploits or not, the new time vs. reward equation just doesn't work for a lot of players. If anything I was convinced Cryptic let those purposevely stand to entice players to log in every day and sweeten people to impulse purchases. With those gone.... why bother anymore? FOr a good percentage if not most, the game just isn't good enough to warrant the effort being asked of players now. If this is not changed I think we'll see a drop in the playerbase, and of those that remain, fewer will want to invest (spend ca$h) in such a low return system.
While I cannot speak for others I see nothing wrong for acting entitled when facing a BUSINESS. Remember, they are out for your money, why shouldn't YOU be trying to get VALUE out of your time/money. Isn't "Greed" a company's duty and obligation? Why should players be different? If anything players are constantly forgiving and understanding when they shouldn't be, for me the greed balance is clearly leaning towards Cryptic's side.
I can honestly say I've not dropped by New Romulues yet, Defera was alright but Nukara has left a bad taste in my mouth for "ground action zones". I'll get to it eventually but I'm just not excited about it, and I haven't even been by yet! How sad is it we've come to that?
B'Tran was an exploit because you could get a large amount of dilithium faster than anywhere else for less effort.
The foundry daily was set up to encourage people to play foundry missions, which is why they gave the dilithium and fleet marks for it. When people started doing the clickies that went against the spirit of what it was intended for. They added the marks for those who were doing it as it was intended. The clickie people just happened to get a bonus.
It seems you want everything immediately for little or no effort. That's not the way the game should be played, nor is it the way the game is going. If people leave, as you intimate they will, I hardly think that will be the end of the game. I think the new systems will strengthen the game in the long term and provide a solid foundation from which new content can be built.
You're 100% right that all players should try to get the most value for their time and money. I think, however, that a lot of players are trying to get that value by trying to steer the game in directions it's just not going to go. I think the best way that a player can get best value is control the amount of time and money they spend.
That may mean people leave, but that's the way it is with MMOs.
No offense but this is BS. If it was not intended they would have removed it straight away like they just did with the private fleet queues.
They were "exploits" that were part of the game for ages. Typically a game company will close exploits ASAP. These were in the game for so long they became part of the fabric of player expectation and allowed Season 6 to be acceptable to the population.
You're right, pantsmaster. This is entitlement and greed. People want everything for nothing and when they either don't get it or something changes that they don't like this is the result.
Oh please, you had to fly out the TRIBBLE end of nowhere, then you might luck out and get the easy randoms, but most likely you have to kill 6 waves of ships, or run around a planet trying to find a tiny glowing rock, or my favorite, the heavy fog planet with a satellite piece under the ground with only a tiny blip showing. It took a good amount of time.
Tell us about the 47%! And moocher societies!
WE spent TIME on it. Face it man S7 is a failure. ADMIT IT, stop defending the indefensible.
You spent time on it? Yes, so did I. What was the reward? The joy of playing the game!! If it's no longer a joy, find something else. Find value for your time and energy. Me, I'm loving the game exactly the way it is. I play because I find it fun. I'm also not alone in this. The people who are having fun are just less vocal about it.
What happens when the game one day ends? What will you say then? I want my money back because I spent TIME on it? They'll laugh at you. So will I.
So I try to contribute - run fleet actions, etc. Hooray, 9 marks (give or take, from FAs at least). That will really make a dent in the 1200 required for xyz project (singular).
I could understand it from a business perspective is there was a way to monetize on the fleet marks - but there isn't anything in place.
But, there is. If you have to play more to get them, and you want them, you'll pay for things that make this extra play more convenient for you, such as consumables and better ships.
Further, by making progression take longer, at least some of the audience will stick around longer before they reach the post-progression burnout.
And that's why I've brought out toons that I haven't played for ages. Because there's now something long term to do with them.
Indeed, the thing with STO is that as a sub game that went F2p its been constantly changing the goalposts, changing the rules of "game". So a lot of people that would otherwise not touch a F2P game at all were already invested into STO. Naturally they will complain every step of the game moving in a direction they don't want it to go. Some of them feel they have been lied to and due to their investment of time/money/community they now feel trapped as well. While others may disagree I can certainly understand their plight.
Personally I think we're in another transition phase for STO, when most of the pre f2p players will finally leave or give up on STO, accepting it for it is and either go with the flow or hang around spending nothing and encouraging others to do the same. Sucks for most of the older players and it only makes STO fit more into the cycle of growth/decline that most f2p games go through, by PWI's own numbers their f2p model burns out games in 5 years or less
TRIBBLE | -Show Me Your Critz-
Svarog | Veles | et al.
If B'Tran wasn't properly designed that is one thing, but it was designed, it was put in the game for a VERY long time, it was played and rewarded the way it was meant to be. It, by definition, is not an exploit. A single B'Tran run still took 15 minutes, plus travel time to and from the TRIBBLE end of the universe.
The console clicking may have been one, but it too existed in the game for a very very long time. When the devs increased the rewards of that mission, they basically said it was ok. The devs knew how it was being accomplished because the top 20 missions played were all console clicks. There is a very big issue with giving someone something then coming back and say, uh no we want that back.
I have no desire to have everything, nor do I feel entitled to everything. But if I am incapable of reaching the 8k dilithium cap daily then casual players have no hope at all.
I have written very long, very detailed guides for our fleet on how to earn dilithium, marks, how to build ships, do ground content, run fleet actions, how to run stfs, doffing.. every aspect of the game. I know what I'm talking about, I see the entire picture, and as someone who has to take care of a fleet I see how they feel as well. When our casual players just give up, and our more dedicated players complain in frustration on the verge of throwing the towel in, then whats left? The silent ones.. maybe, I'm sure they are happy.
Completed Starbase, Embassy, Mine, Spire and No Win Scenario
Nothing to do anymore.
http://dtfleet.com/
Visit our Youtube channel
Because you unlock a lot of new content with reputation tiers. The content is the reward, this time.
God, lvl 60 CW. 17k.
i think this will become an bigger issue in some 7 days or a little more as people in bigger fleets who have found the marks always filled will spend their saved mark pools..
smaller fleets feel it first, of course..
btw - my son is playing some f2p + cash shop games. some browser games too.
In every one of them he gets something just for logging in. Once a day.
Why could a toon in this f2p game get free 50 Fleet Marks a day for logging in? Without a mission?
If they do not want to monetize them, to make them exchangeable.. etc.
I see NO reason i can earn tons of Omega or Romulan marks in an hour, and in the same playtime ill get only some 30 Fleet Marks.
Gimme a logical explanation pls.
I know, you can't admit that this is one of the issues, which Cryptic FORGOT about..
EDIT - i really do not care about the Dill changes.
Well...they don't have to worry about that anymore,people will get burned out long before that happens....
Take back your home,end the grind!
Volunteer moderators policing the forums is like a mall cop trying to solve a murder.