every one of these abilities can be used at their global cooldown. never ending VM, never ending tractor hold from pets and yourself, never ending plasma hold, global TT and CRF. the only question is how long it will take for you to die, wile you are rendered completely helpless. don't for get SA, the longer you take a pounding, the more damage it will deal.
this is just the most uber thing i can think of, there are proboly at least 5-10 other builds that could completely dominate as well.
Wow, now you're just being nasty, trying to make any credulous newbs reading this thread use a completely worthless build. First, the 3 tech doffs aren't going to push many of these abilities to global, it's only a total of 30%, so TT, ST, CRF, and TB won't be at global. I don't know about VM, because it's the most useless ability in the game, shutting down totally random systems not including shields for just a few seconds. I used it for a few months when I had just started the game before realizing that it's simply a waste of an ability slot. And of course, an AtB build that relies so heavily on Aux for its heals will surely struggle to survive under heavy fire.
Here's the build I'll be using, not optimized I'm sure, but quite potent and a good deal of fun in ESTFs:
2 aux DHC 1 quantum torp, 3 phaser turrets
TT1, CSV1
TS1 EPtS1, EPtS2 HE1, TSS2, TR2, GW3
ST1, CPB1, PSW1
runabouts (subject to change, I may choose a higher damage pet)
1 GW doff, 1 Warp Core Engineer doff, others as you like
For large targets, head in at top speed all weapons firing, hit TR immediately, CSV at 7 km, CPB at 5, and TS for your next torpedo (when the shields may be down). A GW when TR runs out will keep heavy plasma torps in check. Frigates can have GW first and be dead before it runs out. Wait for probes/BoPs to come to you, and use GW when they're fairly close to maximize your firepower. CPB is a utility power: emergency torp killer, tractor beam breaker, or simply extra kinetic damage. TT is primarily for clearing Assimilate Ship, although it can also be used for shield redistribution.
I've pushed this build (minus runabouts and with single cannons) to 4k DPS on my Fleet Recon, I'm very hopeful to do better with the Vesta.
^ i didn't know it was this possible to be wrong about so many things at once. to say i don't know what im talking about, and then to post that useless combination of powers.
CPB? a skill that literally does nothing? TBR and GW? make up your mind to you want them held or pushed? and PSW1, an ability that is useful at cancelling someones ES and EWP, and does nothing else. and you say VM is useless? well its not the best thing there is without doffs, but with it can shut down 3 subsystems for quite a wile very reliably. its sci's best tool right now with doffs.
theres only a handful of people that know the power of 2 AtB, and your clearly not one of them. how does slashing all running cooldowns every 10 seconds sound to you? how does a 10 second power bonus to all other subsystems, every 10 seconds, sound to you? and it absoultly does result in every ability cut down to about its global.
the information in your post is so backward it would be considered trolling, whether thats what your trying to do or not.
95% of ignorant PvEers will tell you that STO has no meaningful PvP at all, because they got destroyed in a queue the one time they braved the queues. And because they lack the courage to improve themselves and become a better player.
Fixed.
If anyone here wants to get better at the game, read my siglink. It's a treasure trove of information about PVP from people who have played it a high level for years.
^ i didn't know it was this possible to be wrong about so many things at once. to say i don't know what im talking about, and then to post that useless combination of powers.
I've been feeling the same way about you for a while now.
No, CPB, the most powerful shield drain sci has, particularly since it's multi target. Maybe it is weak in PvP where your targets have resistance to it, but with only moderate Aux it can take down half a facing on an ESTF cube.
TBR and GW? make up your mind to you want them held or pushed?
I did not say TBR, one of the riskiest powers to carry into an STF, I said TR, Tyken's Rift, the AoE power drain/torp killer which, with the high Aux the Vesta will allow, might just take down a target's shields for a full 10 seconds. Maybe not quite as good at single target as Energy Siphon, but the torp killing and emergency probe/BoP slowing make up the difference and make it a valuable way to protect your team.
and PSW1, an ability that is useful at cancelling someones ES and EWP, and does nothing else.
I posted a full sentence on the many ways to use PSW, and I skipped a few too, for example it can also be useful if you can get in front of the probes in KASE and use it on them just before they reach you, giving you an extra 15 seconds or so to kill them and causing ~10% hull damage.
and you say VM is useless? well its not the best thing there is without doffs, but with it can shut down 3 subsystems for quite a wile very reliably. its sci's best tool right now with doffs.
Maybe in PvP, although I find it hard to believe, but in PvE the delay, randomness, single target nature, and short duration make it one of the most useless powers there is. I suppose it's better than Mask Energy Signature, and AFKing is of course better than a poorly used TBR, but that's about all that can be said for it. Using VM is definitely wasting a boff slot that has better uses.
theres only a handful of people that know the power of 2 AtB, and your clearly not one of them. how does slashing all running cooldowns every 10 seconds sound to you? how does a 10 second power bonus to all other subsystems, every 10 seconds, sound to you? and it absoultly does result in every ability cut down to about its global.
I'm perfectly willing to believe that AtB builds can be powerful, and it's true that I haven't tried one myself, I'm just not a cruiser person. But my math was accurate, and the fact that it's going to be nerfing almost all of the heals you posted severely is also accurate. If you want to do that you need heals that aren't going to be affected by the fact that your Aux power is constantly near or at nothing. Now, it does seem that the wiki was wrong and AtB does not currently share a global with EPtS, so you might get close to full uptime on that by this method, and that is certainly powerful, but it only goes so far, and when pressed you will find yourself without significant healing that can be used at a moment's notice. Worse, you're now running a ship without a real role: its healing is too weak to tank effectively, it of course cannot approach the firepower of an escort (all the more since you have neglected all sci damage), and it lacks the good controls and debuffs like GW and the energy drains, leaving only a random single target control/firepower debuff, another single target control, and the captain abilities that could be used to better advantage on a stronger ship and build.
To sum up: the information in your post is so backward it could be considered trolling, whether that's what you're trying to do or not.
its not worth it. if you got things so figured out, try the pvp ques next time. you talk of how things work so well in pve, well thats just fine for pve, were even the most elite stf is absolute child's play. at the very least, a few pvp matches should give you a hint that you don't know even 1/10 of what you think you know about this game.
Wow, now you're just being nasty, trying to make any credulous newbs reading this thread use a completely worthless build. First, the 3 tech doffs aren't going to push many of these abilities to global, it's only a total of 30%, so TT, ST, CRF, and TB won't be at global. I don't know about VM, because it's the most useless ability in the game, shutting down totally random systems not including shields for just a few seconds. I used it for a few months when I had just started the game before realizing that it's simply a waste of an ability slot. And of course, an AtB build that relies so heavily on Aux for its heals will surely struggle to survive under heavy fire.
Here's the build I'll be using, not optimized I'm sure, but quite potent and a good deal of fun in ESTFs:
2 aux DHC 1 quantum torp, 3 phaser turrets
TT1, CSV1
TS1 EPtS1, EPtS2 HE1, TSS2, TR2, GW3
ST1, CPB1, PSW1
runabouts (subject to change, I may choose a higher damage pet)
1 GW doff, 1 Warp Core Engineer doff, others as you like
For large targets, head in at top speed all weapons firing, hit TR immediately, CSV at 7 km, CPB at 5, and TS for your next torpedo (when the shields may be down). A GW when TR runs out will keep heavy plasma torps in check. Frigates can have GW first and be dead before it runs out. Wait for probes/BoPs to come to you, and use GW when they're fairly close to maximize your firepower. CPB is a utility power: emergency torp killer, tractor beam breaker, or simply extra kinetic damage. TT is primarily for clearing Assimilate Ship, although it can also be used for shield redistribution.
I've pushed this build (minus runabouts and with single cannons) to 4k DPS on my Fleet Recon, I'm very hopeful to do better with the Vesta.
LOL, Are we playing the same game ?
"Cryptic Studio’s Jack Emmert (2010): Microtransactions are the biggest bunch of nonsense. I like paying one fee and not worrying about it – like my cellphone. The world’s biggest MMO isn’t item based, even though the black market item GDP is bigger than Russia … microtransactions make me want to die.”
Wow, now you're just being nasty, trying to make any credulous newbs reading this thread use a completely worthless build. First, the 3 tech doffs aren't going to push many of these abilities to global, it's only a total of 30%, so TT, ST, CRF, and TB won't be at global. I don't know about VM, because it's the most useless ability in the game, shutting down totally random systems not including shields for just a few seconds. I used it for a few months when I had just started the game before realizing that it's simply a waste of an ability slot. And of course, an AtB build that relies so heavily on Aux for its heals will surely struggle to survive under heavy fire.
Here's the build I'll be using, not optimized I'm sure, but quite potent and a good deal of fun in ESTFs:
2 aux DHC 1 quantum torp, 3 phaser turrets
TT1, CSV1
TS1 EPtS1, EPtS2 HE1, TSS2, TR2, GW3
ST1, CPB1, PSW1
runabouts (subject to change, I may choose a higher damage pet)
1 GW doff, 1 Warp Core Engineer doff, others as you like
For large targets, head in at top speed all weapons firing, hit TR immediately, CSV at 7 km, CPB at 5, and TS for your next torpedo (when the shields may be down). A GW when TR runs out will keep heavy plasma torps in check. Frigates can have GW first and be dead before it runs out. Wait for probes/BoPs to come to you, and use GW when they're fairly close to maximize your firepower. CPB is a utility power: emergency torp killer, tractor beam breaker, or simply extra kinetic damage. TT is primarily for clearing Assimilate Ship, although it can also be used for shield redistribution.
I've pushed this build (minus runabouts and with single cannons) to 4k DPS on my Fleet Recon, I'm very hopeful to do better with the Vesta.
You are mistaken regarding A2B. 2 copies slams everything to global. It's not surprising that you don't understand this because not many people have caught on. I was a fan of Tech doffs but drunk blew my mind when he posted what you can do with doubling them up.
CSV at 7 km is a TRIBBLE sandwich hold the bread. Here's why.
CPB is terribad. VM is the first thing I want to throw at an escort with a hot stick. TT loaded for shield distribution, so much so that "it can also be used for shield distribution" is so far out of touch I'm not really sure we're playing the same game.
dontdrunkimshoot is one of the most knowledgeable players around. You are posting misinformation regarding the value of abilities because you have a shallow understanding of them. Respecs aren't free, and the one doing a disservice to "credulous newbs" is you.
_______________ CommanderDonatra@Capt.Sisko: ahhh is it supposed to do that? Norvo Tigan@dontdrunkimshoot: hell ya, maybe
its not worth it. if you got things so figured out, try the pvp ques next time. you talk of how things work so well in pve, well thats just fine for pve, were even the most elite stf is absolute child's play. at the very least, a few pvp matches should give you a hint that you don't know even 1/10 of what you think you know about this game.
I do know PvE, obviously a lot better than you do. PvP is a totally different game though, and one that I know relatively little about.
Think it through here. In PvP, targets are made durable by high resistances and colossal healing. In PvE, targets are made durable by having enormous numbers of hitpoints. That alone would make for a totally different equation, and one that makes sci ships weaker. But there's more. In PvP, killing a target requires an enormous burst of damage in a short time to temporarily exceed heals, and ideally that target should be weak for that time. In PvE, that burst of damage won't be nearly enough to kill a tough target, and additional damage will be required, but it will not heal, making DPS more important than spike, and making short duration sci abilities less potent. PvE targets have negligible defense, PvP targets have very high defense, that changes the usefulness of TB, as does the fact that the only PvE targets that move at appreciable speed come in groups which must all be killed at once.
My point all along was simply that, for PvE purposes, the Vesta is a badly needed buff to a ship type. Maybe sci ships do work well enough in PvP, but that doesn't matter to the majority of the player base, and it doesn't mean that the game as a whole is working, especially given that the content bias of the game is clearly in favor of PvE (there are 105+ Fed PvE missions and only 16 PvP ones, and all the PvP ones get their rewards only through a single daily).
Now, if you want to talk about a way to make the Vesta less potent in PvP without sacrificing its PvE effectiveness, I'm more than willing to listen and might even get behind the idea. I would certainly be in favor of making the LtC sci only, which would prevent the Vesta from becoming a fast cruiser like you seem to be concerned about and limit the number of tac buffs it can use (even for PvE a Vesta with APB, DPB, CSV, GW, and CPB would likely be OP). But PvE sci desperately needs a buff, and the Vesta is the only one we look like getting.
CSV at 7 km is a TRIBBLE sandwich hold the bread. Here's why.
You would be absolutely right if I had said to stop there. I didn't, I said to keep heading in, at least to 5km where CPB can be used. I spend 80% of my time at 1 notch of forward or reverse speed 1.5-2.1 km from my target. Holding CSV until 7 km rather than using it immediately ensures that any destructible projectiles won't hit you and you will take down the shields of many targets before the torp recharges while at the same time saving as much as possible of the buff for short range where it has maximum effect.
CPB is terribad. VM is the first thing I want to throw at an escort with a hot stick. TT loaded for shield distribution, so much so that "it can also be used for shield distribution" is so far out of touch I'm not really sure we're playing the same game.
I guess maybe you missed the fact that this is about PvE? The whole reason for having the Vesta is for PvE, since PvPers keep claiming that sci ships are fine in their game. And yes, we are playing different games, I'm playing PvE where spike damage is rare and a Distribute Shields keybind is more than adequate 95% of the time, and when I do die it's almost never with significant shields left on another facing. Using TT every time you need to distribute your shields would be a waste, and the number one importance of it is to clear Assimilate Ship and keep your abilities available. As for CPB, it may be weak against targets that have high resistance to it, but it is very valuable against those that don't, like every PvE enemy in the game.
dontdrunkimshoot is one of the most knowledgeable players around. You are posting misinformation regarding the value of abilities because you have a shallow understanding of them. Respecs aren't free, and the one doing a disservice to "credulous newbs" is you.
Whatever he may know, he doesn't know how PvE works, and it's pretty clear that you don't either. It really is a different game, so yes, some abilities that are good in one are poor in the other, and vice versa. I know the abilities that I use, I know what it takes to save a mission or kill a target in an STF. I doubt that build would have been effective even in PvP due to healing problems, but it would definitely have been a poor choice in high level PvE because it lacks extreme DPS, multi target CC (the only kind that matters most of the time), and exceptional tanking (meaning ability to shrug off a high powered torp or ISO and tank Donatra indefinitely). Without one of those it is at best a passable build for an STF, where new players learn high level play and acquire high quality gear, whatever its merits in PvP. And no one should ever respec for any build without trying it out first, both for effectiveness and personal preference, respecs are simply too expensive, and abilities are cheap.
You don't need a vessel as powerful as the Vesta to do PvE.
Any nerfs that are PvP-oriented won't be noticed by the majority of you. You'll still faceroll PvE with the vessel.
I watch a channel of extremely skilled ESTF players some of whom have 13k DPS builds. That's for a Guramba, and does vary down to as low as 9k at times. Their best sci ship player can get up to 5k DPS out of a non-fleet Recon Sci. Given that DPS is the primary factor in ESTFs, that disparity is a major problem.
Now, what kind of nerf are you thinking about? An accuracy nerf might well work, maybe -1% for all Vestas, no one misses in an STF but it is supposed to be important in PvP. Another option might be a reduction in the maximum stack of SA, perhaps to 2/3 of what a normal ship gets, that wouldn't matter most of the time in PvE, but PvPers seem to think that SA is potent. I'm open to these things, I just want to see a level playing field in PvE.
You can finish STFs with 5 T3 ships piloted by people with clue. So much for the challenge.
"Cryptic Studio’s Jack Emmert (2010): Microtransactions are the biggest bunch of nonsense. I like paying one fee and not worrying about it – like my cellphone. The world’s biggest MMO isn’t item based, even though the black market item GDP is bigger than Russia … microtransactions make me want to die.”
I've done Elite STFs with a DSSV armed with nothing special. In fact, it was a heal build for PvP. All I did was set weapons power to 100, and I was destroying the Cubes while keeping myself alive during it.
The AI don't heal themselves and they don't move much. Just broadside and they are dead. Use the counters to their abilities. Use a debuff here and there and they go pop so easily.
No one needs an OP Vesta to complete these STFs easily.
I've done Elite STFs with a DSSV armed with nothing special. In fact, it was a heal build for PvP. All I did was set weapons power to 100, and I was destroying the Cubes while keeping myself alive during it.
The AI don't heal themselves and they don't move much. Just broadside and they are dead. Use the counters to their abilities. Use a debuff here and there and they go pop so easily.
No one needs an OP Vesta to complete these STFs easily.
You're absolutely right, a team that knows the mission decently well, watches chat, and has builds that aren't totally incompetent will ultimately finish the mission. A PvP heal build can certainly keep itself alive through an STF (it's designed to do so in a faster paced environment, after all), and if you can stay alive and keep shooting everything will inevitably die. I've done Elites with total strangers and missing a person and still completed comfortably. But you won't get optionals without high powered builds, and you won't cover well for incompetent teamates without high powered builds, and as things stand sci ships basically don't have high powered builds. High level PvE doesn't mean you win, high level PvE means you get the optional with 10 minutes to spare, or you solo ISE and get the optional while the rest of your team sits at the spawn point and applauds. I'm not making those up, either, those are real things that people can do on a regular basis. But not if they're using current sci ships.
Whatever he may know, he doesn't know how PvE works, and it's pretty clear that you don't either. It really is a different game, so yes, some abilities that are good in one are poor in the other, and vice versa. I know the abilities that I use, I know what it takes to save a mission or kill a target in an STF. I doubt that build would have been effective even in PvP due to healing problems, but it would definitely have been a poor choice in high level PvE because it lacks extreme DPS, multi target CC (the only kind that matters most of the time), and exceptional tanking (meaning ability to shrug off a high powered torp or ISO and tank Donatra indefinitely). Without one of those it is at best a passable build for an STF, where new players learn high level play and acquire high quality gear, whatever its merits in PvP. And no one should ever respec for any build without trying it out first, both for effectiveness and personal preference, respecs are simply too expensive, and abilities are cheap.
your implying high level pve and pvp are somehow on the same level, and you need very different builds to do ether. sorry, thats not how things are. pve even in its most difficult form is so far below pvp in terms of quality build required and skill required, its not even on the same planet. any fleet action i go into i get first place effortlessly, any stf i do i carry the team, often doing more damage then the other 4 combined. these are with my pvp builds, that have to stand up to stresses 10 times as harsh. any good pvp build will face role all pve.
CPB is proboly more worthless in pve, npcs are just huge hitpoint sponges, and thats a skill that does a set amount of damage. player ships have a tiny fraction of the hitpoints, but they have heals, resistance, and rotating active, thats how they make up for it. a skill like CPB would thus be better against player ships
there is no healing problem from 2 AtB at all, with EPtA1, and aux batts, theres always at least 30 aux 90-95% of the time. and all the heals you can use twice as often as well. you wouldn't know this unless you tried it, i tested this extensively and use it in 2 out of 3 of my characters with no healing problems.
You're absolutely right, a team that knows the mission decently well, watches chat, and has builds that aren't totally incompetent will ultimately finish the mission. A PvP heal build can certainly keep itself alive through an STF (it's designed to do so in a faster paced environment, after all), and if you can stay alive and keep shooting everything will inevitably die. I've done Elites with total strangers and missing a person and still completed comfortably. But you won't get optionals without high powered builds, and you won't cover well for incompetent teamates without high powered builds, and as things stand sci ships basically don't have high powered builds. High level PvE doesn't mean you win, high level PvE means you get the optional with 10 minutes to spare, or you solo ISE and get the optional while the rest of your team sits at the spawn point and applauds. I'm not making those up, either, those are real things that people can do on a regular basis. But not if they're using current sci ships.
I did the KASE optional with my Sci healboat setup the first time. If everyone isn't completely fail, they'll do it just fine.
your implying high level pve and pvp are somehow on the same level, and you need very different builds to do ether. sorry, thats not how things are. pve even in its most difficult form is so far below pvp in terms of quality build required and skill required, its not even on the same planet. any fleet action i go into i get first place effortlessly, any stf i do i carry the team, often doing more damage then the other 4 combined. these are with my pvp builds, that have to stand up to stresses 10 times as harsh. any good pvp build will face role all pve.
CPB is proboly more worthless in pve, npcs are just huge hitpoint sponges, and thats a skill that does a set amount of damage. player ships have a tiny fraction of the hitpoints, but they have heals, resistance, and rotating active, thats how they make up for it. a skill like CPB would thus be better against player ships
there is no healing problem from 2 AtB at all, with EPtA1, and aux batts, theres always at least 30 aux 90-95% of the time. and all the heals you can use twice as often as well. you wouldn't know this unless you tried it, i tested this extensively and use it in 2 out of 3 of my characters with no healing problems.
You bring everything back to PvP... Something a high percentage of players never do cause it's always been broken as we all know.Anyone else notice that so called Elitist PvPers have the uber builds and the bestest skills?
You bring everything back to PvP... Something a high percentage of players never do cause it's always been broken as we all know.
LOL, do you not see the pattern ? PvP is "broken", because bul**** ships like Besta are added. With no care to balance, just to fill pockets.
"Cryptic Studio’s Jack Emmert (2010): Microtransactions are the biggest bunch of nonsense. I like paying one fee and not worrying about it – like my cellphone. The world’s biggest MMO isn’t item based, even though the black market item GDP is bigger than Russia … microtransactions make me want to die.”
your implying high level pve and pvp are somehow on the same level, and you need very different builds to do ether.
As played, they absolutely are. I suppose the difference is that high level PvP is about winning the match, while high level PvE is about dominating the mission by an enormous amount and/or ensuring success with even the worst team.
pve even in its most difficult form is so far below pvp in terms of quality build required and skill required, its not even on the same planet.
Required, yes, desired, no. That is always a problem with PvP in any game, you have to be very good at it to not just be destroyed humiliatingly at every turn, while PvE is made just to require you to be fairly good, and if you want to go above and beyond that you can.
any fleet action i go into i get first place effortlessly, any stf i do i carry the team, often doing more damage then the other 4 combined. these are with my pvp builds, that have to stand up to stresses 10 times as harsh. any good pvp build will face role all pve.
Any good player with a good build going into a pug STF will do better than most teammates, and very likely wind up carrying the whole team to victory by pulling them out of the fire. That's even more true in normals where a vast majority don't know what they're doing at all. A cruiser with a simple EPtS/EPtW chain and a competent captain will dominate the scoreboard of most groups, because few players manage to break 2k DPS even in escorts, when 4k is the minimum for a decent build.
CPB is proboly more worthless in pve, npcs are just huge hitpoint sponges, and thats a skill that does a set amount of damage. player ships have a tiny fraction of the hitpoints, but they have heals, resistance, and rotating active, thats how they make up for it. a skill like CPB would thus be better against player ships
CPB is highly potent against NPCs, as I said before it can take down half of a facing on most enemies. An escort will be better at this, of course, I dropped it from my BoP pretty quickly on realizing that the DHCs and powerful tac skills made it irrelevant, but it is nevertheless an extremely valuable contribution for a PvE sci ship to make because the shields on targets do have to go down rapidly and many times a player needs to be able to solo one or more opposing ships and can't rely on allies to do part of the work for them.
there is no healing problem from 2 AtB at all, with EPtA1, and aux batts, theres always at least 30 aux 90-95% of the time. and all the heals you can use twice as often as well. you wouldn't know this unless you tried it, i tested this extensively and use it in 2 out of 3 of my characters with no healing problems.
I don't know what you're doing with it to achieve that, when I briefly tried one on my BoP today it pulled my Aux power down to 5 points whether it started at 60 or 40. But whatever, if it works in PvP, good for you, it's still nothing more than a weak escort in PvE, because it doesn't have controls, isn't going to successfully tank the 30k through full shields torps that happen every so often, and can't stack enough powerful buffs to do high level damage.
Actually, I can give a prediction of how much damage it will do, since it's not dissimilar to a build I tried on my BoP. That build had max weapons power and chained CSV1 and TT1, although it did also have a GW1 and APO1+2, and logged about 3.3k DPS with Mk XI rare gear. It did have an extra DHC and 2 turrets, which will probably about balance with your better gear. Then subtract out 100 for the GW over time and divide by 1.05 to take out the APOs, and we get 3.067k, the wiki has TB at 10 damage and TBR at 100, relating that to Folcwin's skill point effects table TB should be 50-80 per pulse depending on skill, and most pulses in the game are at 1 second intervals, so we get 3.1k DPS. Certainly better than most pugs, but poor in relation to high powered STFers. (And yes, I dropped that build and found a better one for an instant .3k boost, and have been improving my equipment. Haven't done a parse in a while, I suppose I should.)
EDIT: Forgot the 4th tac console, it was 6 am and I hadn't been to sleep yet. That'll bring the DPS up to 3.2, maybe even 3.3.
You bring everything back to PvP... Something a high percentage of players never do cause it's always been broken as we all know.Anyone else notice that so called Elitist PvPers have the uber builds and the bestest skills?
You lost me when u babbled about PvP
the core of pvp is very balanced, and about 30 times funner then the pve. honestly, i dont know how any of you stay interested in this game wile just playing the pve.
pvp is the opposite of broken, it functions wonderfully, theres just a handful of cheese and overpowered TRIBBLE you encounter every once and a wile. your just repeating this self perpetuating BS that does a lot more damage to pvp then any of the imbalanced things that have been added to it, like the vesta.
pve teaches you how to play wrong, its like the devs are playing a trick on you. a little bit of relearning, and a lot of question asking of pvp'ers that are all happy to help, and a little expereince and you can pvp with the rest of the impossibly good players. and you will be able to steam roll all the pve you play now.
I don't know what you're doing with it to achieve that, when I briefly tried one on my BoP today it pulled my Aux power down to 5 points whether it started at 60 or 40. But whatever, if it works in PvP, good for you, it's still nothing more than a weak escort in PvE, because it doesn't have controls, isn't going to successfully tank the 30k through full shields torps that happen every so often, and can't stack enough powerful buffs to do high level damage.
your aux doesn't instantly restore after the first AtB expires, it creeps up at your transfer rate. so the second AtB is activated at that low, not all the way restored aux level, and the aux that didn't get used climbed up to its peek. plus EPtA is running, further keeping it healthy. its kinda sloppy, and the buffed energy levels are all over the place, but the cooldown reducing is the main thing. there is no comparison between 1 AtB and 2, 2 is massively better.
1 shots are 1 shots, usually just rotating EPtS and having knetic armor is enough to survive the BS borg torps. sometimes i use HE and TSS at low aux levels, and the heals arent great. but its like i have 2 copies of them, and they work great when i need them and i use an aux batt.
I've been feeling the same way about you for a while now.
No, CPB, the most powerful shield drain sci has, particularly since it's multi target. Maybe it is weak in PvP where your targets have resistance to it, but with only moderate Aux it can take down half a facing on an ESTF cube.
I did not say TBR, one of the riskiest powers to carry into an STF, I said TR, Tyken's Rift, the AoE power drain/torp killer which, with the high Aux the Vesta will allow, might just take down a target's shields for a full 10 seconds. Maybe not quite as good at single target as Energy Siphon, but the torp killing and emergency probe/BoP slowing make up the difference and make it a valuable way to protect your team.
I posted a full sentence on the many ways to use PSW, and I skipped a few too, for example it can also be useful if you can get in front of the probes in KASE and use it on them just before they reach you, giving you an extra 15 seconds or so to kill them and causing ~10% hull damage.
Maybe in PvP, although I find it hard to believe, but in PvE the delay, randomness, single target nature, and short duration make it one of the most useless powers there is. I suppose it's better than Mask Energy Signature, and AFKing is of course better than a poorly used TBR, but that's about all that can be said for it. Using VM is definitely wasting a boff slot that has better uses.
I'm perfectly willing to believe that AtB builds can be powerful, and it's true that I haven't tried one myself, I'm just not a cruiser person. But my math was accurate, and the fact that it's going to be nerfing almost all of the heals you posted severely is also accurate. If you want to do that you need heals that aren't going to be affected by the fact that your Aux power is constantly near or at nothing. Now, it does seem that the wiki was wrong and AtB does not currently share a global with EPtS, so you might get close to full uptime on that by this method, and that is certainly powerful, but it only goes so far, and when pressed you will find yourself without significant healing that can be used at a moment's notice. Worse, you're now running a ship without a real role: its healing is too weak to tank effectively, it of course cannot approach the firepower of an escort (all the more since you have neglected all sci damage), and it lacks the good controls and debuffs like GW and the energy drains, leaving only a random single target control/firepower debuff, another single target control, and the captain abilities that could be used to better advantage on a stronger ship and build.
To sum up: the information in your post is so backward it could be considered trolling, whether that's what you're trying to do or not.
looool thanks for the laugh, joke is on you.....
hmmm Gecko is that you?
I actually managed an Infected (I think? The one with the three cubes) run as an Engie in a Mirror Star and an Engie in some kind of 'scort. Yes, it was just the two of us. Whenever I have to PvE grind I'm not even really paying attention any more, I just zone out and mash the appropriate spacebars/buff rotations.
I want to second dontdrunk's sentiment that there's nothing "broken" about PvP. There are big problems with it for sure, but if the core game weren't so strong none of us would stick around as long as we have. In fact the biggest problem is that newer players would rather take the whole, "Oh it's broken so we can ignore it" route than give it a try.
And PvP in STO is super easy to learn, it's not this mythical obscure art. Any of us would love to help you guys out! We really would, it'd make our day if we had one more player in the queues.
Well, I bought the Vesta on the first day of S7 so I could use it for Tour (probably the one place where it is significantly OP, beat all my previous times by a minute or two despite the engine switching nerf, making a number of mistakes, and having to cross Tau Dewa). Here are my impressions so far.
Durability is, unsurprisingly, on par with other sci ships: tough shields, weak hull that usually doesn't matter because of the tough shields.
The phaser console may be OP, I haven't used either of the other superweapons (Gal-X lance and Guramba javelin), but this one is decidedly super. It gets 12k DPS for 12 seconds, then a 3 minute recharge (EDIT: actually 4k DPS, got the numbers mixed up somehow I guess). You do have to keep it on target for the full 12 seconds though, otherwise it deactivates and the rest of the run is lost.
The inertia is a bit worse than the Recon Sci, which is taking some getting used to, but is probably fair given the other advantages.
Firepower, which was the most contentious issue, has proved to be around what I expected. The overall feel is rather like my BoP but with only one CSV. Ultimately, while it has significantly better firepower than other sci ships, it doesn't seem at all out of line with what's needed in high level PvE.
And PvP in STO is super easy to learn, it's not this mythical obscure art. Any of us would love to help you guys out! We really would, it'd make our day if we had one more newbie to crush in the queues.
Fix't. As for new people in the queues, nope, not gonna happen.
PvP is broken. It has been broken for years and the devs have made it clear they aren't interested in fixing it or even attempting to make it balanced. The main goal and focus of STO has always been on PvE content while the PvP was just an afterthought that was tacked on to give players something else to do.
PWE will exploit the **** out of it now. They've already started selling Zen ships that are significantly more powerful with unique consoles and advantages that give them a powerful edge in PvP. There's no way that anyone else can compete without a lot of hassle and frustration (and dying) or being a wallet-warrior and paying up.
And for what? Dilithium? Some marks? There are no PvP rewards that make it worthwhile to even bother PvPing.
No sorry, I doubt anyone cares if it would make the day to have one more newbie to crush in the queues.
The necessity of needing macros (keybinds in STO parlance for some odd reason) in order to keep up is only the tip of the iceberg.
Comments
Wow, now you're just being nasty, trying to make any credulous newbs reading this thread use a completely worthless build. First, the 3 tech doffs aren't going to push many of these abilities to global, it's only a total of 30%, so TT, ST, CRF, and TB won't be at global. I don't know about VM, because it's the most useless ability in the game, shutting down totally random systems not including shields for just a few seconds. I used it for a few months when I had just started the game before realizing that it's simply a waste of an ability slot. And of course, an AtB build that relies so heavily on Aux for its heals will surely struggle to survive under heavy fire.
Here's the build I'll be using, not optimized I'm sure, but quite potent and a good deal of fun in ESTFs:
2 aux DHC 1 quantum torp, 3 phaser turrets
TT1, CSV1
TS1
EPtS1, EPtS2
HE1, TSS2, TR2, GW3
ST1, CPB1, PSW1
runabouts (subject to change, I may choose a higher damage pet)
1 GW doff, 1 Warp Core Engineer doff, others as you like
For large targets, head in at top speed all weapons firing, hit TR immediately, CSV at 7 km, CPB at 5, and TS for your next torpedo (when the shields may be down). A GW when TR runs out will keep heavy plasma torps in check. Frigates can have GW first and be dead before it runs out. Wait for probes/BoPs to come to you, and use GW when they're fairly close to maximize your firepower. CPB is a utility power: emergency torp killer, tractor beam breaker, or simply extra kinetic damage. TT is primarily for clearing Assimilate Ship, although it can also be used for shield redistribution.
I've pushed this build (minus runabouts and with single cannons) to 4k DPS on my Fleet Recon, I'm very hopeful to do better with the Vesta.
vids and guides and stuff
[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
CPB? a skill that literally does nothing? TBR and GW? make up your mind to you want them held or pushed? and PSW1, an ability that is useful at cancelling someones ES and EWP, and does nothing else. and you say VM is useless? well its not the best thing there is without doffs, but with it can shut down 3 subsystems for quite a wile very reliably. its sci's best tool right now with doffs.
theres only a handful of people that know the power of 2 AtB, and your clearly not one of them. how does slashing all running cooldowns every 10 seconds sound to you? how does a 10 second power bonus to all other subsystems, every 10 seconds, sound to you? and it absoultly does result in every ability cut down to about its global.
the information in your post is so backward it would be considered trolling, whether thats what your trying to do or not.
Fixed.
If anyone here wants to get better at the game, read my siglink. It's a treasure trove of information about PVP from people who have played it a high level for years.
I've been feeling the same way about you for a while now.
No, CPB, the most powerful shield drain sci has, particularly since it's multi target. Maybe it is weak in PvP where your targets have resistance to it, but with only moderate Aux it can take down half a facing on an ESTF cube.
I did not say TBR, one of the riskiest powers to carry into an STF, I said TR, Tyken's Rift, the AoE power drain/torp killer which, with the high Aux the Vesta will allow, might just take down a target's shields for a full 10 seconds. Maybe not quite as good at single target as Energy Siphon, but the torp killing and emergency probe/BoP slowing make up the difference and make it a valuable way to protect your team.
I posted a full sentence on the many ways to use PSW, and I skipped a few too, for example it can also be useful if you can get in front of the probes in KASE and use it on them just before they reach you, giving you an extra 15 seconds or so to kill them and causing ~10% hull damage.
Maybe in PvP, although I find it hard to believe, but in PvE the delay, randomness, single target nature, and short duration make it one of the most useless powers there is. I suppose it's better than Mask Energy Signature, and AFKing is of course better than a poorly used TBR, but that's about all that can be said for it. Using VM is definitely wasting a boff slot that has better uses.
I'm perfectly willing to believe that AtB builds can be powerful, and it's true that I haven't tried one myself, I'm just not a cruiser person. But my math was accurate, and the fact that it's going to be nerfing almost all of the heals you posted severely is also accurate. If you want to do that you need heals that aren't going to be affected by the fact that your Aux power is constantly near or at nothing. Now, it does seem that the wiki was wrong and AtB does not currently share a global with EPtS, so you might get close to full uptime on that by this method, and that is certainly powerful, but it only goes so far, and when pressed you will find yourself without significant healing that can be used at a moment's notice. Worse, you're now running a ship without a real role: its healing is too weak to tank effectively, it of course cannot approach the firepower of an escort (all the more since you have neglected all sci damage), and it lacks the good controls and debuffs like GW and the energy drains, leaving only a random single target control/firepower debuff, another single target control, and the captain abilities that could be used to better advantage on a stronger ship and build.
To sum up: the information in your post is so backward it could be considered trolling, whether that's what you're trying to do or not.
LOL, Are we playing the same game ?
CSV at 7 km is a TRIBBLE sandwich hold the bread. Here's why.
CPB is terribad. VM is the first thing I want to throw at an escort with a hot stick. TT loaded for shield distribution, so much so that "it can also be used for shield distribution" is so far out of touch I'm not really sure we're playing the same game.
dontdrunkimshoot is one of the most knowledgeable players around. You are posting misinformation regarding the value of abilities because you have a shallow understanding of them. Respecs aren't free, and the one doing a disservice to "credulous newbs" is you.
CommanderDonatra@Capt.Sisko: ahhh is it supposed to do that?
Norvo Tigan@dontdrunkimshoot: hell ya, maybe
I do know PvE, obviously a lot better than you do. PvP is a totally different game though, and one that I know relatively little about.
Think it through here. In PvP, targets are made durable by high resistances and colossal healing. In PvE, targets are made durable by having enormous numbers of hitpoints. That alone would make for a totally different equation, and one that makes sci ships weaker. But there's more. In PvP, killing a target requires an enormous burst of damage in a short time to temporarily exceed heals, and ideally that target should be weak for that time. In PvE, that burst of damage won't be nearly enough to kill a tough target, and additional damage will be required, but it will not heal, making DPS more important than spike, and making short duration sci abilities less potent. PvE targets have negligible defense, PvP targets have very high defense, that changes the usefulness of TB, as does the fact that the only PvE targets that move at appreciable speed come in groups which must all be killed at once.
My point all along was simply that, for PvE purposes, the Vesta is a badly needed buff to a ship type. Maybe sci ships do work well enough in PvP, but that doesn't matter to the majority of the player base, and it doesn't mean that the game as a whole is working, especially given that the content bias of the game is clearly in favor of PvE (there are 105+ Fed PvE missions and only 16 PvP ones, and all the PvP ones get their rewards only through a single daily).
Now, if you want to talk about a way to make the Vesta less potent in PvP without sacrificing its PvE effectiveness, I'm more than willing to listen and might even get behind the idea. I would certainly be in favor of making the LtC sci only, which would prevent the Vesta from becoming a fast cruiser like you seem to be concerned about and limit the number of tac buffs it can use (even for PvE a Vesta with APB, DPB, CSV, GW, and CPB would likely be OP). But PvE sci desperately needs a buff, and the Vesta is the only one we look like getting.
You don't need a vessel as powerful as the Vesta to do PvE.
Any nerfs that are PvP-oriented won't be noticed by the majority of you. You'll still faceroll PvE with the vessel.
You would be absolutely right if I had said to stop there. I didn't, I said to keep heading in, at least to 5km where CPB can be used. I spend 80% of my time at 1 notch of forward or reverse speed 1.5-2.1 km from my target. Holding CSV until 7 km rather than using it immediately ensures that any destructible projectiles won't hit you and you will take down the shields of many targets before the torp recharges while at the same time saving as much as possible of the buff for short range where it has maximum effect.
I guess maybe you missed the fact that this is about PvE? The whole reason for having the Vesta is for PvE, since PvPers keep claiming that sci ships are fine in their game. And yes, we are playing different games, I'm playing PvE where spike damage is rare and a Distribute Shields keybind is more than adequate 95% of the time, and when I do die it's almost never with significant shields left on another facing. Using TT every time you need to distribute your shields would be a waste, and the number one importance of it is to clear Assimilate Ship and keep your abilities available. As for CPB, it may be weak against targets that have high resistance to it, but it is very valuable against those that don't, like every PvE enemy in the game.
Whatever he may know, he doesn't know how PvE works, and it's pretty clear that you don't either. It really is a different game, so yes, some abilities that are good in one are poor in the other, and vice versa. I know the abilities that I use, I know what it takes to save a mission or kill a target in an STF. I doubt that build would have been effective even in PvP due to healing problems, but it would definitely have been a poor choice in high level PvE because it lacks extreme DPS, multi target CC (the only kind that matters most of the time), and exceptional tanking (meaning ability to shrug off a high powered torp or ISO and tank Donatra indefinitely). Without one of those it is at best a passable build for an STF, where new players learn high level play and acquire high quality gear, whatever its merits in PvP. And no one should ever respec for any build without trying it out first, both for effectiveness and personal preference, respecs are simply too expensive, and abilities are cheap.
I watch a channel of extremely skilled ESTF players some of whom have 13k DPS builds. That's for a Guramba, and does vary down to as low as 9k at times. Their best sci ship player can get up to 5k DPS out of a non-fleet Recon Sci. Given that DPS is the primary factor in ESTFs, that disparity is a major problem.
Now, what kind of nerf are you thinking about? An accuracy nerf might well work, maybe -1% for all Vestas, no one misses in an STF but it is supposed to be important in PvP. Another option might be a reduction in the maximum stack of SA, perhaps to 2/3 of what a normal ship gets, that wouldn't matter most of the time in PvE, but PvPers seem to think that SA is potent. I'm open to these things, I just want to see a level playing field in PvE.
The AI don't heal themselves and they don't move much. Just broadside and they are dead. Use the counters to their abilities. Use a debuff here and there and they go pop so easily.
No one needs an OP Vesta to complete these STFs easily.
You're absolutely right, a team that knows the mission decently well, watches chat, and has builds that aren't totally incompetent will ultimately finish the mission. A PvP heal build can certainly keep itself alive through an STF (it's designed to do so in a faster paced environment, after all), and if you can stay alive and keep shooting everything will inevitably die. I've done Elites with total strangers and missing a person and still completed comfortably. But you won't get optionals without high powered builds, and you won't cover well for incompetent teamates without high powered builds, and as things stand sci ships basically don't have high powered builds. High level PvE doesn't mean you win, high level PvE means you get the optional with 10 minutes to spare, or you solo ISE and get the optional while the rest of your team sits at the spawn point and applauds. I'm not making those up, either, those are real things that people can do on a regular basis. But not if they're using current sci ships.
your implying high level pve and pvp are somehow on the same level, and you need very different builds to do ether. sorry, thats not how things are. pve even in its most difficult form is so far below pvp in terms of quality build required and skill required, its not even on the same planet. any fleet action i go into i get first place effortlessly, any stf i do i carry the team, often doing more damage then the other 4 combined. these are with my pvp builds, that have to stand up to stresses 10 times as harsh. any good pvp build will face role all pve.
CPB is proboly more worthless in pve, npcs are just huge hitpoint sponges, and thats a skill that does a set amount of damage. player ships have a tiny fraction of the hitpoints, but they have heals, resistance, and rotating active, thats how they make up for it. a skill like CPB would thus be better against player ships
there is no healing problem from 2 AtB at all, with EPtA1, and aux batts, theres always at least 30 aux 90-95% of the time. and all the heals you can use twice as often as well. you wouldn't know this unless you tried it, i tested this extensively and use it in 2 out of 3 of my characters with no healing problems.
I did the KASE optional with my Sci healboat setup the first time. If everyone isn't completely fail, they'll do it just fine.
You bring everything back to PvP... Something a high percentage of players never do cause it's always been broken as we all know.Anyone else notice that so called Elitist PvPers have the uber builds and the bestest skills?
You lost me when u babbled about PvP
I was just in an STF where 3 of the ships weren't even cycling EPTS.
Those fail players wouldn't even know what to do with the Vesta if it was handed to them.
If the Vesta lost the hangar bay, it would still be a great ship, but also less annoying in PvP.
LOL, do you not see the pattern ? PvP is "broken", because bul**** ships like Besta are added. With no care to balance, just to fill pockets.
As played, they absolutely are. I suppose the difference is that high level PvP is about winning the match, while high level PvE is about dominating the mission by an enormous amount and/or ensuring success with even the worst team.
Required, yes, desired, no. That is always a problem with PvP in any game, you have to be very good at it to not just be destroyed humiliatingly at every turn, while PvE is made just to require you to be fairly good, and if you want to go above and beyond that you can.
Any good player with a good build going into a pug STF will do better than most teammates, and very likely wind up carrying the whole team to victory by pulling them out of the fire. That's even more true in normals where a vast majority don't know what they're doing at all. A cruiser with a simple EPtS/EPtW chain and a competent captain will dominate the scoreboard of most groups, because few players manage to break 2k DPS even in escorts, when 4k is the minimum for a decent build.
CPB is highly potent against NPCs, as I said before it can take down half of a facing on most enemies. An escort will be better at this, of course, I dropped it from my BoP pretty quickly on realizing that the DHCs and powerful tac skills made it irrelevant, but it is nevertheless an extremely valuable contribution for a PvE sci ship to make because the shields on targets do have to go down rapidly and many times a player needs to be able to solo one or more opposing ships and can't rely on allies to do part of the work for them.
I don't know what you're doing with it to achieve that, when I briefly tried one on my BoP today it pulled my Aux power down to 5 points whether it started at 60 or 40. But whatever, if it works in PvP, good for you, it's still nothing more than a weak escort in PvE, because it doesn't have controls, isn't going to successfully tank the 30k through full shields torps that happen every so often, and can't stack enough powerful buffs to do high level damage.
Actually, I can give a prediction of how much damage it will do, since it's not dissimilar to a build I tried on my BoP. That build had max weapons power and chained CSV1 and TT1, although it did also have a GW1 and APO1+2, and logged about 3.3k DPS with Mk XI rare gear. It did have an extra DHC and 2 turrets, which will probably about balance with your better gear. Then subtract out 100 for the GW over time and divide by 1.05 to take out the APOs, and we get 3.067k, the wiki has TB at 10 damage and TBR at 100, relating that to Folcwin's skill point effects table TB should be 50-80 per pulse depending on skill, and most pulses in the game are at 1 second intervals, so we get 3.1k DPS. Certainly better than most pugs, but poor in relation to high powered STFers. (And yes, I dropped that build and found a better one for an instant .3k boost, and have been improving my equipment. Haven't done a parse in a while, I suppose I should.)
EDIT: Forgot the 4th tac console, it was 6 am and I hadn't been to sleep yet. That'll bring the DPS up to 3.2, maybe even 3.3.
the core of pvp is very balanced, and about 30 times funner then the pve. honestly, i dont know how any of you stay interested in this game wile just playing the pve.
pvp is the opposite of broken, it functions wonderfully, theres just a handful of cheese and overpowered TRIBBLE you encounter every once and a wile. your just repeating this self perpetuating BS that does a lot more damage to pvp then any of the imbalanced things that have been added to it, like the vesta.
pve teaches you how to play wrong, its like the devs are playing a trick on you. a little bit of relearning, and a lot of question asking of pvp'ers that are all happy to help, and a little expereince and you can pvp with the rest of the impossibly good players. and you will be able to steam roll all the pve you play now.
your aux doesn't instantly restore after the first AtB expires, it creeps up at your transfer rate. so the second AtB is activated at that low, not all the way restored aux level, and the aux that didn't get used climbed up to its peek. plus EPtA is running, further keeping it healthy. its kinda sloppy, and the buffed energy levels are all over the place, but the cooldown reducing is the main thing. there is no comparison between 1 AtB and 2, 2 is massively better.
1 shots are 1 shots, usually just rotating EPtS and having knetic armor is enough to survive the BS borg torps. sometimes i use HE and TSS at low aux levels, and the heals arent great. but its like i have 2 copies of them, and they work great when i need them and i use an aux batt.
hmmm Gecko is that you?
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
I want to second dontdrunk's sentiment that there's nothing "broken" about PvP. There are big problems with it for sure, but if the core game weren't so strong none of us would stick around as long as we have. In fact the biggest problem is that newer players would rather take the whole, "Oh it's broken so we can ignore it" route than give it a try.
And PvP in STO is super easy to learn, it's not this mythical obscure art. Any of us would love to help you guys out! We really would, it'd make our day if we had one more player in the queues.
vids and guides and stuff
[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
Durability is, unsurprisingly, on par with other sci ships: tough shields, weak hull that usually doesn't matter because of the tough shields.
The phaser console may be OP, I haven't used either of the other superweapons (Gal-X lance and Guramba javelin), but this one is decidedly super. It gets 12k DPS for 12 seconds, then a 3 minute recharge (EDIT: actually 4k DPS, got the numbers mixed up somehow I guess). You do have to keep it on target for the full 12 seconds though, otherwise it deactivates and the rest of the run is lost.
The inertia is a bit worse than the Recon Sci, which is taking some getting used to, but is probably fair given the other advantages.
Firepower, which was the most contentious issue, has proved to be around what I expected. The overall feel is rather like my BoP but with only one CSV. Ultimately, while it has significantly better firepower than other sci ships, it doesn't seem at all out of line with what's needed in high level PvE.
Fix't. As for new people in the queues, nope, not gonna happen.
PvP is broken. It has been broken for years and the devs have made it clear they aren't interested in fixing it or even attempting to make it balanced. The main goal and focus of STO has always been on PvE content while the PvP was just an afterthought that was tacked on to give players something else to do.
PWE will exploit the **** out of it now. They've already started selling Zen ships that are significantly more powerful with unique consoles and advantages that give them a powerful edge in PvP. There's no way that anyone else can compete without a lot of hassle and frustration (and dying) or being a wallet-warrior and paying up.
And for what? Dilithium? Some marks? There are no PvP rewards that make it worthwhile to even bother PvPing.
No sorry, I doubt anyone cares if it would make the day to have one more newbie to crush in the queues.
The necessity of needing macros (keybinds in STO parlance for some odd reason) in order to keep up is only the tip of the iceberg.
Why waste time on unrewarding content? :P
Why Season 7 is better than you realize
Raise Refining Cap for Gold/Lifetime!