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How Consles, Weapons Power, Tac buffs, and Skill points actually work
carl103
Member Posts: 1 Arc User
As a result of an ongoing discussion I decided to get busy doing some tests on how consoles, skills points and weapons power interact with each other and how all this interacts with tac buffs. The tests where all done with energy weapons, so the results may be different for projectile weapons, i'd need to check.
1. All tac buffs, (plus APO), are straight multipliers on damage after all other effects. If several are active then the modifiers stack additively with each other and the final total is the multiplier.
2. Consoles only provide half the listed boost to damage and this boost is applied to the weapons base damage before skill point bonuses are added on.
3. Skill point bonuses are then added on separately of this total, in effect consoles neither benefit from skill points, nor themselves benefit skill points.
4. Weapons power is a multiplier on the total damage after additions from consoles and skill points. It is not additive with consoles as many have claimed as the benefit from consoles, (in percentage terms), remains constant from 50 power to 125 power. However at power settings below 50 the Console bonus does in fact begin to decrease. I have no concrete theory for this behavior except to suggest that an entirely separate and different formulae is used at below 50 power than at above 50 power and that at these setting the consoles interact differently with weapons power.
5. Tactical Fleet's listed damage modifier is wrong. It's actually 17.5%, not 30%.
So here's the current actual formulae for damage at weapons power setting of 50 or more:
(B + (B*S) + (B*(C/2)))*(0.02*(W-50)))*(APA+TF+APO+GDF)
Where:
B = Base weapons damage without Skill or any other modifiers.
S= Total benefit from skill points as decimal, (0.5 at 9 point sin all relevant skills).
C = Total console benefit as a decimal, (1.5 for 5 MkXII purple consoles).
W= Weapons Power
APA = Attack Pattern Alpha (0.5 at 100 Attack pattern skill)
TF = Tactical Fleet (0.175)
APO = Attack Pattern Omega (0.25 at 100 attack Pattern Skill)
GDF = Go Down Fighting, (0.248 at 100% hull remaining)
Figured te PvP forums would be the most intrested in the results, still need to figure out how BoFF skills besides APO interact with this though, mainly BO.
Okay BO worked out.
It adds damage to the base damage that is then multiplied by everythign else, (consoles, weapons power, tac bufs, everything).
The modifiers are +500% for BO1, +625% for BO2, and +750% for BO3. Or more simply base damage multiplied by 6/7.25/8.5.
1. All tac buffs, (plus APO), are straight multipliers on damage after all other effects. If several are active then the modifiers stack additively with each other and the final total is the multiplier.
2. Consoles only provide half the listed boost to damage and this boost is applied to the weapons base damage before skill point bonuses are added on.
3. Skill point bonuses are then added on separately of this total, in effect consoles neither benefit from skill points, nor themselves benefit skill points.
4. Weapons power is a multiplier on the total damage after additions from consoles and skill points. It is not additive with consoles as many have claimed as the benefit from consoles, (in percentage terms), remains constant from 50 power to 125 power. However at power settings below 50 the Console bonus does in fact begin to decrease. I have no concrete theory for this behavior except to suggest that an entirely separate and different formulae is used at below 50 power than at above 50 power and that at these setting the consoles interact differently with weapons power.
5. Tactical Fleet's listed damage modifier is wrong. It's actually 17.5%, not 30%.
So here's the current actual formulae for damage at weapons power setting of 50 or more:
(B + (B*S) + (B*(C/2)))*(0.02*(W-50)))*(APA+TF+APO+GDF)
Where:
B = Base weapons damage without Skill or any other modifiers.
S= Total benefit from skill points as decimal, (0.5 at 9 point sin all relevant skills).
C = Total console benefit as a decimal, (1.5 for 5 MkXII purple consoles).
W= Weapons Power
APA = Attack Pattern Alpha (0.5 at 100 Attack pattern skill)
TF = Tactical Fleet (0.175)
APO = Attack Pattern Omega (0.25 at 100 attack Pattern Skill)
GDF = Go Down Fighting, (0.248 at 100% hull remaining)
Figured te PvP forums would be the most intrested in the results, still need to figure out how BoFF skills besides APO interact with this though, mainly BO.
Okay BO worked out.
It adds damage to the base damage that is then multiplied by everythign else, (consoles, weapons power, tac bufs, everything).
The modifiers are +500% for BO1, +625% for BO2, and +750% for BO3. Or more simply base damage multiplied by 6/7.25/8.5.
Post edited by carl103 on
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oh, having 5 tac consoles isn't that big of a deal. SURE. RIGHT.
the tac buffs multiply the adjusted tool tip displayed damage huh? from what i've seen i'll believe that. no wonder 5 console ships hit so much harder when fully buffed.
good job doing all this testing
So the effects of ApA buff my base DHC damage, then CRF buffs the base DHC, then ApO, etc. Not ApA buffs then CRF buffs (ApA+base) then ApO buffs (ApA+CRF+base)m etc.
R.I.P
*horizon consumes data*
have fun kill bad guys
(B + (B*S) + (B*(C/2)))*(0.02*(W-50)))*(APA+TF+APO+GDF)
Also, if B = 1 and no tac boosts and 125 weapon power and B=1
(1 +(1*.5) + (1*.5))*(0.02*75)*(0+0+0+0)=(1+.5 +.5)(1.5)(0)=0
Something seems off and how you wrote your formula.
Perhaps,
(B + (B*S) + (B*(C/2)))*(0.02*(W-50)))*(APA+TF+APO+GDF) + (B + (B*S) + (B*(C/2)))*(0.02*(W-50)))
since often the tac multiplyer would be less than 1?
Edit: Also, irrc the weapon power influence was nonlinear.
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
1) Tac console benefit is actually rather small compared to the benefit from skills. So does this prove that it is better to get a torp console, then stack energy type consoles if you run a DBB, DHC, DHC, torp on fore, as the base damage of a torp is very much higher than an energy weapon and so will get more significant effect from just 1 console vs stacking all 5? This assumes that the torp is hitting bare hull.
Or is stacking all 5 a better idea, because each console benefits rather little and therefore you need more to get out of your weapons?
But if anything, this proves that pretty much whatever spec you are you should get all the base weapon talents
Do you know where does the crit multiple apply? Is it by multiplying this entire formula (and hence giving us the insane 100k lolcrit on BO3 we tacs are infamous for?)
Hope to read about what you've found
...that means after everything applied BO3 will hit like a twuck. But I also want my CRF2 and APO3. Dilemmaz.
Captain Ruri Gokou of the U.S.S. Kitty Hawk
Catian Atrox Carrier
@Dontdrunkimshoot: the difference between a 4 and 5 console ship with MkXII purples is +7% across the board. Because of the way they fail to interact with skill points and their halved real magnitude of benefit, for someone running 9 ranks in all relevant skills the magnitude of benefit can be determined by adding up all console percentages, converting to decimal, and then dividing by 3. Add a 1 on the front of the result and this is your modifier. Or basically 5 MkXII purples are a 1.5 multiplier whilst 4 are a 1.4 multiplier.
@bitemepwe: That?s what I thought, but it isn't what i found. Sorry.
Anyway gtg. Work.
It might help get the energy nailed down. last time i checked it was dead on with in game values.
"each torpedo type has a base damage(standard issue below mk 1) i know not every has a standard issue level but they do have a number.
the base numbers are
Photon - 1352.00
Transphasic - 978.20
Chroniton - 1157.75
Plasma - 1061.00
Tricobalt - 4153.50
Quantum - 1503.00
now for all the things that add damage.
rarity is 2.5% per level (so very rare is 7.5%, rare is 5.0%, uncommon is 2.5%)
Skills is .5% per point (so 49.5% for 99points in starship weapons training 49.5% for starship projectile weapons and 12.5% for doff +25 bonus)
going form base damage to mk 1 is 8.1362%
every mk after is 10.2% per level (so at mk xii you have a total bonus of 120.3365%
player lvl adds .0388468615825ish lol per level (lvl 50 total bonus is 1.94%)
Dmg modifier is 5% each (so Dmgx3 is 15%)
tactial consoles add a what they say they add (5 consoles at 30% is 150%)
now for set bonuses i think they work like consoles (so breen 30% or honor guard 25%)
the rules 62 console i think is the same way (11%?)
so adding together 7.5%(very rare), 15%(dmgx3), 111.5%(99 points, 99 points, and 25 points), 120.34%(MK XII), 1.94%(level 50) 150.63%(5 Tactical Consoles), 30%(breen set), 11%(rule 63 console) you get 447.9% total bonus on transphasic torpedos
978.2 * 447.9% is 4381.3
4381.3 plus the base damage of 978.2 is 5360
so the max damage per torpedo without any powers is 5360"
I will see if i can find my excel file that did all the math for you, you just picked what you had.
No worries.
R.I.P
I'm not saying your torp figures are wrong btw, just that there's clearly a diffrent system at work IMHO, though all my tests where done at lv50 so it's impossibble to factor out the possibble benfit of that. On the other hand i'm only intrested in how the base damage of an energy weapon, (so damage without consoles, @ 50 weapons power, and with nio skill effects), is affected by everything else, so how that base is calculated isn't so important. Though running quick math your thing about weapon mk and rarity may well explain the apparent console odditties since it would add a defuallt +100% to base damage, (approx, their was some small error margins on the percentages i got, but with
Here's my current corrected formulae to take account of my late night math errors when constructing it from the basic rules i'd established:
(B + (B*S) + (B*(C/CV)))*(1+(0.02*(W-50))))*(1+(APA+TF+APO+GDF))
Where:
CV = Console Variable. I need to check if this really varies with weapons Mk as Queue38's post suggests, all my tests where done with eitheir MK10 purples, (basic figures) or MK10 whites, (BO).
I'm going to try and do some more tests on skill points, Sensor Analysis, and Weapon Mk effects. But first i need my afternoon after work nap
I expect it to go up another 90-ish when I get my Fleet Tactical Escort Retrofit.
This was when I was orbiting ESD, so all of the modifiers should have been in play.
I believe, with all of the attack buffs, it will probably only increase the DPS by 500-1000 if you add all of the weapons together.
it is harder to test if you are not level 1 about get a standard issue beam array and any console you want. it will match very close. hover over the stauts menu to see. no matter what the console you pick will always add the same mount.
i have to do some shopping. so when my son takes a nap i will see what i can come up with.
my standard issue beam array was 102 then i add a 22.5% console and it went to 124.5
the math said it should be 124.95. but i am at level 50 so the base is more then like 100.
like i said i will get back to you.
TheB value in my formulae is bassiclly the base damage modified for Mk and Rariety. A Mk 10 once you knock skill and consoles off is just fractionally over +100% base damage with the lv50 modifier added in. This means the two skill benefits would appear to be +25% ech, not +50%, and the console base magnitudes would also appear to be halved. In fact when i use your exact math i get the exact return is should, (a 26.2% console was actually showing a 12.7% boost and skill points where 48.7% total but i put the variable down to statsital errors due to the small numbers involved, but if i account for the fractionally larger than base 100% modifer from Mk and rareity i can replicate exact numbers).
I'm still going to try and confirm it with some Mk12 whites though, just to be absolutly certain everything is working as we think. I also want to check each skill in turn as i've seen other data that's conflictoray about this. Also i want to know how tis interacts with my BO deductions. I suspect BO may actually be a +1200/1500/1700% base damage modifier but we need to confirm that.
For whoever asked earlier i think crits et all multiply the final output.
Test was done on toon with NO skill points invested at level 50 with no relevant accolades at 50 weapon power.
Mk 6 white tetryon beam array with 0 consoles gives 159.2 DPV, 2 consoles (52.4%) change damage to 211.7 DPV an change of 52.5 DPV
Mk 11 purple tetryon beam array with a single [Dmg] mod and two other mods with 0 consoles gives 222.7 DPV, 2 consoles (same as before) change damage to 275.2 DPV a change of.....52.5 DPV
Follow up test, 0 consoles, 50 weapon power, maxed tier 1 Weapon skill ONLY
Mk 6 white tetryon beam array deals 208.7 DPV, or 49.5 DPV increase
Mk 11 purple tetryon beam array deals 272.2 DPV, or a ..... 49.5 DPV increase
I don't pretend to know what they are a % of, nor do I care. But they only take into account the weapon type beam array/cannon/etc.
The actual DPV formula is pretty simple to my understanding but I do not pretend to know the details of how a weapon gets it's numbers from.
Weapon + Console Mod + Skill Mod = Base
Base * Power Mod * Damage Mod from abilities/accolades/etc = Raw DPV
Raw DPV * Enemy Resistance Mod = True DPV
What the Console Mod and Skill Mod are derived from I have no idea. It is a % of a number based on the weapon type and I'm guessing character level possibly. Skill Mod works the same way. What does this mean you ask?
Every single upgrade you gain, be it a better weapon or better console, has a negligible effect on your actual DPV because of how everything gets added together instead of multiplied.
This is also why Tac captain abilities are so insanely strong at increasing your DPS along with resistance debuffs like Attack Pattern Beta.
Console DPV mod is based on the damage a Mk 0 weapon would deal. IE to calculate the mod you would take the true base of the weapon type (a Mk 0) and multiply it by the mod.
Reason is simple, a base Mk 0 beam array would deal 98 DPV and the beam arrays are gaining about 52.5 DPV from a pair of consoles added together mod by 52.4%. If you take 98 * .524 you get 51.4 which is close enough for it to be a rounding error with the consoles having a bit more mod that is not shown.
I'm going to guess that skill bonus is the same. You do not really get the previously assumed 25% or anything like that. Instead I found the tier 1 skill adding 49.5 DPV to a beam array. Guess what 98 * .4995 is 48.9 and once again close enough for me.
*edit extra info*
In addition each tier for beam array adds 10.2 DPV.
Each Quality upgrade adds 2.5 DPV (IE 5 DPV if blue)
Each [Dmg] mod adds 5 DPV.
So revised formula for beam array DPV would look like this:
Base = 98 + (Mark * 10.2) + (Console * 98) + (Skill *98) + (Quality * 2.5) + (Dmg * 5)
Base * Modifiers * Power Mod = Displayed DPV
Should be pretty darn close for beam arrays. So lets say we have a fleet mark 12 beam array on a fleet defiant with 5 Mk 12 purple consoles maxed skills. Then we go at max weapon power with say a 10% boost from Epower to Weapons.
Base = 98 + 122.4 + 147 + 98 + 10 + 15 : 490.4 DPV
Displayed DPV = 490.4 * 2.5 * 1.1 : 1348.6 DPV
And we fire at a target with no shields and -30% resists for a DPV of 1753.
*edited did bad math with weapon power mod fixxed now*
This is exactly what queue38 said
Dosen't make my originol stuff any less useful as it confirms how tac buffs and such like interact, but yeah that sounds about right. Gonna do some more testing of my own on other stuff mind.
all you have to do is put in the weapon and any bonuses you have.
doesn't do buffs yet
one problem i don't know how to get anyone else the file. any ideas?
Spent 3 days charting out my Trico Bomber trying to squeeze more out of it and its a real pain thank god for advanced combat tracker and some patient Fleet members for being Brick walls for my weaps.
2 x Trico Mines Mk XII [CrtD]x3 Base DPS 29235.8
with Skill tree to 9 on Energy weaps specialization and Projectile Weaps specialization.
With 5 TCD Mk XII purp consoles DPS 42140.6
AP Omega 1 APA3 TF2 GDF and FOMM3 Buffed DPS 87357.4
Then Chuck on DPB3 and then 4 x DPS 87357.4 thats without the Crit Chance
would love to see the Spreadsheet "I will see if i can find my excel file that did all the math for you, you just picked what you had."
now having fun Doing the Reverse CSE ISE and KASE
Now called The T-CSE T-ISE and T-KASE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZ327VVNME8&feature=plcp
Yeah I just no longer take anything at face value until I personal test it.
Too much out of date info and misinformation gets spread I got burned too many times.
any idea how to get the file out there?
Use google Docs..
https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B23llRckDIOuejFiT0NYVzRLRE0
i totaly forgot about mines i will add them as soon as i can.
Can you add the [Crt modifiers ?
cheers astro
How does one change the values on the sheet? It is read only for me
hope that helps.
a note you can type in want you want but it has to be an exact match to what i have so it is easyer to just pick from the drop down.
Funny thing, compared green Mk X DHCs with 4 green Mk X consoles to all purple Mk XIIs. A whopping 9% increase for all that extra its kinda sad really.
Thanks for this - amazing work!
A couple of things:
- What about the various sets that give an additional percentage boost based on weapon type (Jem'Hadar set - +7.6% to Polaron weapons, Temporal Warfare set - +27.4% to Chroniton projectiles, etc.)
- FYI, I once read in a now ancient archived post (pre-Season 5, I believe) about how rarity and the damage mod affects the dpv of a weapon. IIRC if a weapon had the [DMG] mod it was +5% dpv, but if it was a different mod ([Acc], etc.) it was only something like +.25% dpv. The [DMG] mod didn't stack with the extra +.25%. So for example if you had a very rare weapon with three non-[DMG] mods, you'd only get a +.75% increase to dpv, and if you had a very rare weapon with one [DMG] mod you'd get a +5.5% increase to dpv. Food for thought - I'm not sure if this info is still relevant any longer (and I intend on testing as soon as I can), but thought I'd throw it out there in case it was useful. EDIT: did a quick test on a DHC in game and the values are VERY close - only a 2.3 dpv difference - I'm thinking this info above no longer applies. Again, well done!