I guess the truth about the devs hurts eh. Clearly it did judging from the warning I just got. They must be doing what i suggested rather than actual work cause I see very little REAL content being developed in the time frame it should be as opposed to mmo's who make less money and get more out there with less bugs. Go ahead ban this account so I can join you on the next one LOL.
I didn't PvP all month, maybe longer.. and the one time I came back, this guy ( who could never kill me before 1v1 ) killed me with ease. I couldn't figure it out, he was using constant placate skills on me, ( obviously trying to hide the fact that he was TBRing me ) a totally lame tactic. Dying to a sci ship with phased polaron beams THE SHAME lol.
Look who's blaming the game now lol! At least we know how to down those bugs now.
Look who's blaming the game now lol! At least we know how to down those bugs now.
What are you talking about? Blaming the game? Yeah 10k Hull Damage a tick with full shields up, usually dead in 10 seconds, if not, then I'm at 10% hull before they cooldown and kill me 10 seconds later, and that is with 3x kinetic resist consoles too, yeah... that is completely normal and just not a bug that people are exploiting. *slaps my forehead*
lol okay, and doing 10k+ with TBR and killing someone in under 10 seconds, that is completely normal
i said that when i was running without particle consoles, i ran TBR quite often before all this. i got a ship that will deal those 10k hits, and escorts that can deal at least 6k. i am well aware of the lulz.
I actually dusted off the Varanus Support Vessel, outfitted with TBR2x2 and went into PVP.
My sci/sci was top damage dealer and my TBR use was moderate, not spammy..but then, I recall being spammed like crazy by feds next match..anyway only had 2 PG consoles to buff..but even still..I put that ship away again. Thats evil.
The Parthos And Bunny Show Imperial House Of Pancakes
Multiple players have now brought this thread to my attention via PMs. Unfortunately, the best I can tell you at this time is that we're investigating it. We know the root cause of the scaling issue, and why it only recently began being noticed (the Kinetic damage component of TBR did not previously benefit from Particle Generators, until a recent patch), but a solution has not yet been decided on.
Jeremy Randall
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
Multiple players have now brought this thread to my attention via PMs. Unfortunately, the best I can tell you at this time is that we're investigating it. We know the root cause of the scaling issue, and why it only recently began being noticed (the Kinetic damage component of TBR did not previously benefit from Particle Generators, until a recent patch), but a solution has not yet been decided on.
particle gens have effected TBR kinetic damage since the skill tree change. i think it works well, graviton for push, particle for damage
but the current scaling is a problem. how it was before was fine.
We know the root cause of the scaling issue, and why it only recently began being noticed (the Kinetic damage component of TBR did not previously benefit from Particle Generators, until a recent patch), but a solution has not yet been decided on.
this is untrue. pariticle gen always affected it. i know because some pvp matches my bug would put on tbr and i had to decide if i wanted push or damage. but now this is insane. i actually want to go grab a mk12 console just for this............
Join Date: Dec 2007Originally Posted by BROKEN1981
particle gens have effected TBR kinetic damage since the skill tree change. i think it works well, graviton for push, particle for damage.
<s>That's not true.</s>
((EDITED... it's actually half-true... more to come in a sec))
Looks like the culprit is not that the power now benefits from Particle Generators, but that it now benefits twice as much as it previously did. We'll be reviewing this tomorrow to see if this particular change was intended.
Even so, this whole issue is really only a symptom of the larger compounded issue with the way damage boosts work: The fact that TacBuffs actually multiply skill bonus modifiers, instead of adding properly to the base magnitude of powers such as this one. TBR on its own, even with the doubled skill bonus, would have an exceedingly unlikely chance of dealing the magnitude of kinetic damage that's been mentioned in this thread without the assistance of Tactical Damage Buffs.
Jeremy Randall
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
((EDITED... it's actually half-true... more to come in a sec))
id like to see how thats even half not true
since the skill tree change, particle has effected all pure damage, flow has effected all drain, and grav has effected all hold and push as far as sci and some eng abilities go.
Looks like the culprit is not that the power now benefits from Particle Generators, but that it now benefits twice as much as it previously did. We'll be reviewing this tomorrow to see if this particular change was intended.
Even so, this whole issue is really only a symptom of the larger compounded issue with the way damage boosts work: The fact that TacBuffs actually multiply skill bonus modifiers, instead of adding properly to the base magnitude of powers such as this one. TBR on its own, even with the doubled skill bonus, would have an exceedingly unlikely chance of dealing the magnitude of kinetic damage that's been mentioned in this thread without the assistance of Tactical Damage Buffs.
im 90% sure particle gen has effected TBR damage since the new skill tree, it has effected it for almost this entire year at least.
ya its the particle skill that is the problem, i figured its at least twice as effective as it should be.
the tac buffs are just doing their thing like always. stacking particle gen console are how you get the huge base damage, and then the tac skills stacked on top of that are what give you 10k per pulse.
reducing tac's ability to buff the raw damage sci, and some eng skills, to much would destroy any useful synergy tac has with them
Please correct me if I'm wrong but aren't the Tac captain abilities the actual source of the problem?
Edit to elaborate: Rather than nerf the skill tree or change how TBR is affected by skills why not just remove AP:Alpha and GDF's ability to affect Sci and engineering Boff powers? As much as I like buffing GW will AP:alpha it's a slap in my sci officers face that my Tac in a KDF carrier does more damage with sci powers.
Please correct me if I'm wrong but aren't the Tac captain abilities the actual source of the problem?
Edit to elaborate: Rather than nerf the skill tree or change how TBR is affected by skills why not just remove AP:Alpha and GDF's ability to affect Sci and engineering Boff powers?
the variable that changed and is causing the problem is the particle skill.
it was fine befor even tac buffed, the particle skill effecting it just needs to be brought back down to what it was before.
Multiple players have now brought this thread to my attention via PMs. Unfortunately, the best I can tell you at this time is that we're investigating it. We know the root cause of the scaling issue, and why it only recently began being noticed (the Kinetic damage component of TBR did not previously benefit from Particle Generators, until a recent patch), but a solution has not yet been decided on.
Particle gens always affected it. I know it, because before I bought Nova a week ago I tested few builds including TBR ones and the dmg was increased by particle consoles but didn't skyrocket even with tac buffs. After the last patch however the particle gens provide much more dmg, thus allowing tac buffs to reach very high numbers.
Short version, something broke it last patch.
"Cryptic Studio’s Jack Emmert (2010): Microtransactions are the biggest bunch of nonsense. I like paying one fee and not worrying about it – like my cellphone. The world’s biggest MMO isn’t item based, even though the black market item GDP is bigger than Russia … microtransactions make me want to die.”
Looks like the culprit is not that the power now benefits from Particle Generators, but that it now benefits twice as much as it previously did.
We told you that... I wrote that the damage now depends quadratically on the skill points.
Apparently you thought that TBR wasn't affected by PartGens and decided to multiply it with the skill modifier again and since you had overlooked that it was already being enhanced, you got to the quadratic scaling.
Even so, this whole issue is really only a symptom of the larger compounded issue with the way damage boosts work: The fact that TacBuffs actually multiply skill bonus modifiers, instead of adding properly to the base magnitude of powers such as this one. TBR on its own, even with the doubled skill bonus, would have an exceedingly unlikely chance of dealing the magnitude of kinetic damage that's been mentioned in this thread without the assistance of Tactical Damage Buffs.
You know, there was a time when you had decided that tac damage boosts shouldn't affect sci abilities (FBP was the main cause for concern back then) and you even implemented a change that removed tac damage scaling from sci abilities. Then all of a sudden and without any patch notes this behaviour reversed.
But you are wrong about tac boosts being the main problem here. A fully specced TBR with the current quadratic scaling is much too strong even without tac buffs.
(Yes, we wouldn't have these 32k crits, but a hits in the 6-10k range would still be attainable and this is not a one-hit ability, it runs for several seconds and does multiple hits and ignores shields and thus could still destroy ships through shields without much effort.)
EDIT: I hope you also understand the difference between double and quadratic. Hopefully "double" was just a very informal way of addressing the fact that the skill went into the formula at two places instead of one. There is a significant difference in scaling between 2*x and x^2.
*sigh*
another SCI power in the nerf-gun-crosshairs?
right, because SCI is so OP anyway that nobody wants to play it anymore. *duh*
ok, how about, this time you try to nerf the (?) unintended (?) peak numbers ONLY,
as in diminishing returns if you run 4 consoles or something silly like that?
but DON'T nerf the base damage.
i use TBR like it is intended (to push away NPCs in Fleetmissions mostly) i don't have it buffed up by any skills and i don't even notice any damage that it does (at best it can kill some shuttles/fighters).
reducing tac's ability to buff the raw damage sci, and some eng skills, to much would destroy any useful synergy tac has with them
serisouly want a friggin cookie for that? Where are the great synergies of eng and sci?
Swing the hammer hard, *bohoo* tac in a sci ship got nerfed, too bad. Since it is the only class that can effectively fly a non wells sci ship just do it.
serisouly want a friggin cookie for that? Where are the great synergies of eng and sci?
Swing the hammer hard, *bohoo* tac in a sci ship got nerfed, too bad. Since it is the only class that can effectively fly a non wells sci ship just do it.
were there is synergy, we should be glad. were there is not synergy, there should be some created. synergy should not be removed, it keeps capt and ship combo more interesting.
Multiple players have now brought this thread to my attention via PMs. Unfortunately, the best I can tell you at this time is that we're investigating it. We know the root cause of the scaling issue, and why it only recently began being noticed (the Kinetic damage component of TBR did not previously benefit from Particle Generators, until a recent patch), but a solution has not yet been decided on.
An employee that does not know their product very well, usually means there's neglect in attaining the necessary knowledge to sell their product effectively much less service maintain it.
You sadly do know know what you are talking about. I have bit my lip in the passed, and let a lot of things you have said regarding Sub Nuke Doffs, Scramble Sensors being bugged, and AMS being bugged go.
This on the other hand has stacked up to an untenable condition imposed on the pvp aspect of this game.
Clarification, particle generators DO effect and have effected the TBR. Since the cat is out of the hat, TRH has been employing Graviton powered TBR in it's matches to distance targets significantly from healers. We now took the vice versa view, and decided it was time to employ TBR for damage.
Nilifer@PaxOttomana is a character that has not purchased a respec. It was intended to be used for this purpose. Same with Yoda's character, both identical builds. Auxilery power effects the graviton aspect of the TBR not the particle generator.
When this last patch hit, a MK XII Particle Generator console increased DPS on TBR3 by 1k per console. Unbuffed my recon science with a 26.6 deflector adding onto particle generators, gives it 6k dps.
6000 dps unbuffed. A DHC with GDF/Alpha/Tacfleet/APO3 competes with this. However, it's a point and shoot weapon. TBR does not need to be aimed on a 45 degree angle. The worst of this is all is when TBR is fully buffed, and the mere fact it ignores shields completely.
I topped out at 18000+ dps with a GDF a little lower than 50%. Also, critical hits as high as 30k.
Of course running at low aux is ideal, so you don't push the target out of your TBR range. Beating the no win is a joke. Getting dilithium off STFs to buy zen very easy (loss of revenue for you guys) since people who bought zen to get dilithium can do it much more effectively with this ridiculous amount of damage.
Employing polarize hull is a joke. Especially with your awful subnuke doffs proc'ing almost instantly and stripping that buff. A normal sub nuke strips it too, and you're dead because your new ship, the Vesta, has such a pathetic amount of hull (under 40k), that it's "P2W awesome 100% resist shield" can't resist this.
Scenario: Dude runs TBR3&2, runs 6 turrets doesn't bother with subsystem targeting, 3 SN Doffs. He will kill you no matter what you do. I guarantee it.
So when you say, "Unfortunately, the best I can tell you at this time is that we're investigating it." It truly means you have no idea what this does. Wake up Bort. Sad Pandas, Critz, TSI are all gone to different games. I sincerely am starting to think you're the undertaker of PvP fleets in this game.
Aside TBR, you guys dropped the ball on SN Doffs, fixing the scramble bug, AMS bug, (many other bugs), and a new grind system that doesn't even adhere to PvP game play.
You're nuts Borticus, if you think people are going to stick around for you and your Dev team's neglect in not only PvP this game but also PvE, since TBR now effects your precious PvE as well.
Play the game, visit TRH teamspeak, collaborate, learn, and be productive. We have already done all the 'investigating' for you.
This may be a hint that they may have added an influence for Particle Generators at one place in the code and may not have noticed that such an influence was already in place somewhere else in the code.
Bingo.
As I said before, we'll check today to see whether it was intentional or not, and make the necessary changes.
Jeremy Randall
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
It's a quadratic dependency! It is rather obvious that you are accidentally multiplying the skill modifier with a value that has already been multiplied by the skill modifier.
This cannot possibly be intentional, because it makes TBR scale with the opposite of "diminishing returns". It's "increasing returns" now! You have have a strictly monotonically increasing non-negative derivative. This is a bad thing.
For people who did not take calculus: This means that going from 200 skill to 201 gives you more additional damage than going from 100 to 101. Each additional skill point becomes more valuable the higher you get your total skill points.
You won't notice this behaviour much when you have only 0-50 skill points, but once you go over 100 it gets really obvious.
Comments
I guess the truth about the devs hurts eh. Clearly it did judging from the warning I just got. They must be doing what i suggested rather than actual work cause I see very little REAL content being developed in the time frame it should be as opposed to mmo's who make less money and get more out there with less bugs. Go ahead ban this account so I can join you on the next one LOL.
Look who's blaming the game now lol! At least we know how to down those bugs now.
Until the next patch you do! lol!!!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
What are you talking about? Blaming the game? Yeah 10k Hull Damage a tick with full shields up, usually dead in 10 seconds, if not, then I'm at 10% hull before they cooldown and kill me 10 seconds later, and that is with 3x kinetic resist consoles too, yeah... that is completely normal and just not a bug that people are exploiting. *slaps my forehead*
| Join Date: January 2009 | Computer | Fleet: Broken Wings |
i said that when i was running without particle consoles, i ran TBR quite often before all this. i got a ship that will deal those 10k hits, and escorts that can deal at least 6k. i am well aware of the lulz.
My sci/sci was top damage dealer and my TBR use was moderate, not spammy..but then, I recall being spammed like crazy by feds next match..anyway
Imperial House Of Pancakes
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
particle gens have effected TBR kinetic damage since the skill tree change. i think it works well, graviton for push, particle for damage
but the current scaling is a problem. how it was before was fine.
this is untrue. pariticle gen always affected it. i know because some pvp matches my bug would put on tbr and i had to decide if i wanted push or damage. but now this is insane. i actually want to go grab a mk12 console just for this............
<s>That's not true.</s>
((EDITED... it's actually half-true... more to come in a sec))
Looks like the culprit is not that the power now benefits from Particle Generators, but that it now benefits twice as much as it previously did. We'll be reviewing this tomorrow to see if this particular change was intended.
Even so, this whole issue is really only a symptom of the larger compounded issue with the way damage boosts work: The fact that TacBuffs actually multiply skill bonus modifiers, instead of adding properly to the base magnitude of powers such as this one. TBR on its own, even with the doubled skill bonus, would have an exceedingly unlikely chance of dealing the magnitude of kinetic damage that's been mentioned in this thread without the assistance of Tactical Damage Buffs.
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
id like to see how thats even half not true
since the skill tree change, particle has effected all pure damage, flow has effected all drain, and grav has effected all hold and push as far as sci and some eng abilities go.
im 90% sure particle gen has effected TBR damage since the new skill tree, it has effected it for almost this entire year at least.
ya its the particle skill that is the problem, i figured its at least twice as effective as it should be.
the tac buffs are just doing their thing like always. stacking particle gen console are how you get the huge base damage, and then the tac skills stacked on top of that are what give you 10k per pulse.
reducing tac's ability to buff the raw damage sci, and some eng skills, to much would destroy any useful synergy tac has with them
Edit to elaborate: Rather than nerf the skill tree or change how TBR is affected by skills why not just remove AP:Alpha and GDF's ability to affect Sci and engineering Boff powers? As much as I like buffing GW will AP:alpha it's a slap in my sci officers face that my Tac in a KDF carrier does more damage with sci powers.
the variable that changed and is causing the problem is the particle skill.
it was fine befor even tac buffed, the particle skill effecting it just needs to be brought back down to what it was before.
but, i cant log on due to that launcher problem they are working on
Particle gens always affected it. I know it, because before I bought Nova a week ago I tested few builds including TBR ones and the dmg was increased by particle consoles but didn't skyrocket even with tac buffs. After the last patch however the particle gens provide much more dmg, thus allowing tac buffs to reach very high numbers.
Short version, something broke it last patch.
Apparently you thought that TBR wasn't affected by PartGens and decided to multiply it with the skill modifier again and since you had overlooked that it was already being enhanced, you got to the quadratic scaling.
You know, there was a time when you had decided that tac damage boosts shouldn't affect sci abilities (FBP was the main cause for concern back then) and you even implemented a change that removed tac damage scaling from sci abilities. Then all of a sudden and without any patch notes this behaviour reversed.
But you are wrong about tac boosts being the main problem here. A fully specced TBR with the current quadratic scaling is much too strong even without tac buffs.
(Yes, we wouldn't have these 32k crits, but a hits in the 6-10k range would still be attainable and this is not a one-hit ability, it runs for several seconds and does multiple hits and ignores shields and thus could still destroy ships through shields without much effort.)
EDIT: I hope you also understand the difference between double and quadratic. Hopefully "double" was just a very informal way of addressing the fact that the skill went into the formula at two places instead of one. There is a significant difference in scaling between 2*x and x^2.
vids and guides and stuff
[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
another SCI power in the nerf-gun-crosshairs?
right, because SCI is so OP anyway that nobody wants to play it anymore. *duh*
ok, how about, this time you try to nerf the (?) unintended (?) peak numbers ONLY,
as in diminishing returns if you run 4 consoles or something silly like that?
but DON'T nerf the base damage.
i use TBR like it is intended (to push away NPCs in Fleetmissions mostly) i don't have it buffed up by any skills and i don't even notice any damage that it does (at best it can kill some shuttles/fighters).
serisouly want a friggin cookie for that? Where are the great synergies of eng and sci?
Swing the hammer hard, *bohoo* tac in a sci ship got nerfed, too bad. Since it is the only class that can effectively fly a non wells sci ship just do it.
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
look what that Borg Tractor Beam does to the Defiant here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4DCOpG1oNE
and it does not bypass the Shields of the 1701-E just a second later.
Thats the cutting beam.
PaxOttomana: gawd mirror event is like fighting a tsi premade, they keep comin and comin!
were there is synergy, we should be glad. were there is not synergy, there should be some created. synergy should not be removed, it keeps capt and ship combo more interesting.
An employee that does not know their product very well, usually means there's neglect in attaining the necessary knowledge to sell their product effectively much less service maintain it.
You sadly do know know what you are talking about. I have bit my lip in the passed, and let a lot of things you have said regarding Sub Nuke Doffs, Scramble Sensors being bugged, and AMS being bugged go.
This on the other hand has stacked up to an untenable condition imposed on the pvp aspect of this game.
Clarification, particle generators DO effect and have effected the TBR. Since the cat is out of the hat, TRH has been employing Graviton powered TBR in it's matches to distance targets significantly from healers. We now took the vice versa view, and decided it was time to employ TBR for damage.
Nilifer@PaxOttomana is a character that has not purchased a respec. It was intended to be used for this purpose. Same with Yoda's character, both identical builds. Auxilery power effects the graviton aspect of the TBR not the particle generator.
When this last patch hit, a MK XII Particle Generator console increased DPS on TBR3 by 1k per console. Unbuffed my recon science with a 26.6 deflector adding onto particle generators, gives it 6k dps.
6000 dps unbuffed. A DHC with GDF/Alpha/Tacfleet/APO3 competes with this. However, it's a point and shoot weapon. TBR does not need to be aimed on a 45 degree angle. The worst of this is all is when TBR is fully buffed, and the mere fact it ignores shields completely.
I topped out at 18000+ dps with a GDF a little lower than 50%. Also, critical hits as high as 30k.
Of course running at low aux is ideal, so you don't push the target out of your TBR range. Beating the no win is a joke. Getting dilithium off STFs to buy zen very easy (loss of revenue for you guys) since people who bought zen to get dilithium can do it much more effectively with this ridiculous amount of damage.
Employing polarize hull is a joke. Especially with your awful subnuke doffs proc'ing almost instantly and stripping that buff. A normal sub nuke strips it too, and you're dead because your new ship, the Vesta, has such a pathetic amount of hull (under 40k), that it's "P2W awesome 100% resist shield" can't resist this.
Scenario: Dude runs TBR3&2, runs 6 turrets doesn't bother with subsystem targeting, 3 SN Doffs. He will kill you no matter what you do. I guarantee it.
So when you say, "Unfortunately, the best I can tell you at this time is that we're investigating it." It truly means you have no idea what this does. Wake up Bort. Sad Pandas, Critz, TSI are all gone to different games. I sincerely am starting to think you're the undertaker of PvP fleets in this game.
Aside TBR, you guys dropped the ball on SN Doffs, fixing the scramble bug, AMS bug, (many other bugs), and a new grind system that doesn't even adhere to PvP game play.
You're nuts Borticus, if you think people are going to stick around for you and your Dev team's neglect in not only PvP this game but also PvE, since TBR now effects your precious PvE as well.
Play the game, visit TRH teamspeak, collaborate, learn, and be productive. We have already done all the 'investigating' for you.
-PaxOttomana of Turkish RP Heroes
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Bingo.
As I said before, we'll check today to see whether it was intentional or not, and make the necessary changes.
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
Good and always nice to know something is being done. Meanwhile i have to coup with the rant in chat -.-
PaxOttomana: gawd mirror event is like fighting a tsi premade, they keep comin and comin!
This cannot possibly be intentional, because it makes TBR scale with the opposite of "diminishing returns". It's "increasing returns" now! You have have a strictly monotonically increasing non-negative derivative. This is a bad thing.
For people who did not take calculus: This means that going from 200 skill to 201 gives you more additional damage than going from 100 to 101. Each additional skill point becomes more valuable the higher you get your total skill points.
You won't notice this behaviour much when you have only 0-50 skill points, but once you go over 100 it gets really obvious.
CommanderDonatra@Capt.Sisko: ahhh is it supposed to do that?
Norvo Tigan@dontdrunkimshoot: hell ya, maybe
PaxOttomana
2012
We have binders full of fixes!
I'm Pax and I approve this message.
-PaxOttomana of Turkish RP Heroes
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]