Onslaught is definitely an "elite" level STF. It puts Cure Space Elite to shame. It's also obvious that this one is not a DPS-run, like the rest. Onslaught requires strategy, which is the whole point of STFing. The team that I went into Onslaught with for the first time did awful because we had no idea what to expect and Onslaught was completely different from the existing STFs.
I look forward to seeing how a prepared team handles it
Personally if they were to touch the existing STF's would rather they make it more on par with actual game rules. No cheating borg, no invisible torp one shots, no walking through walls, no invincible cloak (i get it's scimitars "perfect cloak" but even then the shields would take damage), no none heavy tac mowing down a single group with a spread, or having a single super tac cube on steroids just because it was easier than making two regular tac cubes or a strategy(KSE vs ISE).
As for the New ones, i like that they're tactical in terms of planning and teamwork equals success, not DPS=awesome, but at the same time, the damage outputs are too high. With teams in full MK XII stf gear, a single normal tac drone should not being almost wiping out the shields and health of the whole team in a single spray. The Queen and elite drones i can see doing that, the heavy tacs, maybe here and there, but the smaller drones not so much.
Adding in the cage rather than just the lock out was a great idea as well. Being taken out of a game sucks, but when it's possible (not easy, just possible) it makes that time so much better. The floor panels and platform were a nice touch, although i'd rather have a plasma or electrified floor since falling that far usually doesn't do much damage, something there to indicate insta-death aside from a shortfall would be nice.
I'm a big fan of an "ultra elite" difficulty that awards fluff stuff like accolades and costume pieces. Just don't put it on the pug queue selection, make it a private party thing only.
The rewards given in Hive Onslaught Elite are not worth the time and pain of that mission. The mission is interesting, but it takes forever to grind through and you are going to explode 10 times before you are done, even if you are playing smart. Raise the rewards on that one by at least tripple and I'll play it again, otherwise I will stick to the other STFs.
I agree with the OP that the other STFs should be brought up to Onslaught's level of difficulty.
Let's face it, the NPCs in Onslaught are far more realistic:
Less health
More skills
Seemingly more intelligent
A better level of damage output (I never got 1 shotted)
It was quite refreshing to actually have to THINK (I know, it's shocking) about what was going on and prioritise targets as necessary. Onslaught is difficult BECAUSE it's not a DPS race with in my opinion is a good thing.
A lot of peeps will prob start complaining that they're not guaranteed to get rewards any more, so maybe you could have it like some of the FAs where rewards are doled out progressively as you scale through the mission.
The rewards given in Hive Onslaught Elite are not worth the time and pain of that mission. The mission is interesting, but it takes forever to grind through and you are going to explode 10 times before you are done, even if you are playing smart. Raise the rewards on that one by at least tripple and I'll play it again, otherwise I will stick to the other STFs.
I understand your point... but my point to increasing the difficulty (or my suggestion at least) has nothing to do with new gear. Or more rewards... I've stated before... I am fine if the Elite STF giving no more rewards than the Advanced STF (Current Elite). The only thing I would like is to have some sort of accolade, title, uniform option (notice nothing about sets, gear, or passives). In a way, I look at this similar to the No Win Scenario accolades/titles... I haven't achieved these (yet)... and for that reason alone... i continue to run the mission, looking to devise a strategy (offer my virtue to the ones I see get the accolade). The rewards are secondary to me.
I am not looking for a new grind.. I am looking for an award for skill. An outward sign stating "This guy knows what he's doing". Something to be proud of achieving. Even if others get it before me... even if I never achieve it... it is something to work for. That to me is the why I play.
In this thread, others have commented that Mk XII gear was supposed to be that... but it really wasn't... since it was a matter of grind... you run it enough times, you get the gear. There is no indication of skill here. When I first got the Maco Elite Commander title... I was ecstatic... changed my title the second I could. Then ran some more STF's on the grind for tech... saw others with the same title... that were... shall we say.. less quality of a player. Saw the posts of many who got their entire set in a week... saw those (who were hands down better than I at these missions) still grinding after hundreds to get that piece of technology. So long story short (I know... too late) the current rewards have nothing to do with skill (and neither the reputation system, doff system, nor fleetbase system). They are a testament to grind... and while i'll continue to work on them... in the end it doesn't say "that guy is an elite player".
Another point... is that not everyone should be obtain Elite status. I am not looking to exclude anyone (hence why I am not asking for some new gear/passives/etc).... but it reminds me of the current trend in local sports (mainly at the Recreational levels) where people believe that everyone should get a trophy, regardless of ability. Which I never understood.
A team that loses every game (in sto terms fails every optional), gets the same trophy/award as those who excel. How is that motivating for the team who never lost a match... who practiced hard to win all those games).
Another point... is that not everyone should be obtain Elite status. I am not looking to exclude anyone (hence why I am not asking for some new gear/passives/etc).... but it reminds me of the current trend in local sports (mainly at the Recreational levels) where people believe that everyone should get a trophy, regardless of ability. Which I never understood.
A team that loses every game (in sto terms fails every optional), gets the same trophy/award as those who excel. How is that motivating for the team who never lost a match... who practiced hard to win all those games).
Optionals aren't optionals if you measure the quality of a player or group by their completion of them.
That's always been a problem I had with that.
A proper dungeon optional is, well... Genuinely optional. You don't get it by playing better or faster all the time. You get it by doing something extra. By inconveniencing yourself.
To my way of thinking a proper optional would be completing Infected Ground (including Rebecca) without using any ranged weapons. Or fighting an extra boss. This hokeypokey DPS race stuff isn't an optional. It's having a content designer as a backseat driver, defining skill in terms of everyone having read a wiki for undocumented information.
A good team is a team that can finish it. If you want a true skill measure, require skill to finish it. And if you want to keep people motivated, have rewards at each tier.
I'm, overall, more impressed with players who get a perfect Starbase Incursion than with players who have STF optionals, because the latter just means you used pre-made teams and read a wiki.
Well, I had a long winded post about the min-maxing and cookie cutter play style ruining the STF experience for those who don't follow that play style... but I decided to go with this instead.
STO isn't the type of game where there are "Elite" players. Yes, you can be the uber player that only needs 2 people to conquer an elite level mission. However, what does that mean? What benefits are there? None. STO doesn't keep a "winners" and "losers" list. The closest would be the rewards at the end of certain missions or a title that accompanies an accolade. The increased difficulty and rewards that accompany Elite level missions is what makes them "Elite".
Increasing the difficulty will only hurt the majority of the player base who participate in these missions. I don't think that anyone would argue that the majority of players think the Elite STF's are too "easy" at current. The learning curve from Normal to Elite is very steep. There are no practice levels between the two difficulties, so making Elites even harder will result in far more frustration... especially when "newbs" that don't already have STF gear join in.
My suggestions for making your gameplay more "difficult":
1. Do not join pre-mades. Only join pugs.
2. Switch weapon type or energy type.
3. Switch ship class.
4. Use only level I abilities, or better yet, use fewer abilities.
5. Use lower leveled gear.
6. Don't heal damage to ship systems.
7. And this one might be interesting to try: don't train the captain in any skills.
See? Elites can be more difficult if you want them to be.
Well, I had a long winded post about the min-maxing and cookie cutter play style ruining the STF experience for those who don't follow that play style... but I decided to go with this instead.
STO isn't the type of game where there are "Elite" players. Yes, you can be the uber player that only needs 2 people to conquer an elite level mission. However, what does that mean? What benefits are there? None. STO doesn't keep a "winners" and "losers" list. The closest would be the rewards at the end of certain missions or a title that accompanies an accolade. The increased difficulty and rewards that accompany Elite level missions is what makes them "Elite".
Increasing the difficulty will only hurt the majority of the player base who participate in these missions. I don't think that anyone would argue that the majority of players think the Elite STF's are too "easy" at current. The learning curve from Normal to Elite is very steep. There are no practice levels between the two difficulties, so making Elites even harder will result in far more frustration... especially when "newbs" that don't already have STF gear join in.
My suggestions for making your gameplay more "difficult":
1. Do not join pre-mades. Only join pugs.
2. Switch weapon type or energy type.
3. Switch ship class.
4. Use only level I abilities, or better yet, use fewer abilities.
5. Use lower leveled gear.
6. Don't heal damage to ship systems.
7. And this one might be interesting to try: don't train the captain in any skills.
See? Elites can be more difficult if you want them to be.
I think you completely miss the point and can't understand what people looking for challenges want. We'll ALWAYS do our best with the best possible gear, strategies, etc. That's why we would like another difficulty level. To do our best with the best stuff we have.
Optionals aren't optionals if you measure the quality of a player or group by their completion of them.
That's always been a problem I had with that.
A proper dungeon optional is, well... Genuinely optional. You don't get it by playing better or faster all the time. You get it by doing something extra. By inconveniencing yourself.
To my way of thinking a proper optional would be completing Infected Ground (including Rebecca) without using any ranged weapons. Or fighting an extra boss. This hokeypokey DPS race stuff isn't an optional. It's having a content designer as a backseat driver, defining skill in terms of everyone having read a wiki for undocumented information.
A good team is a team that can finish it. If you want a true skill measure, require skill to finish it. And if you want to keep people motivated, have rewards at each tier.
I'm, overall, more impressed with players who get a perfect Starbase Incursion than with players who have STF optionals, because the latter just means you used pre-made teams and read a wiki.
The only problem with optionals is that they are entirely dependent on DPS up til this point. These new optionals that test survivability as well are a step in the right direction, and are a measure the ability of a group to work in concert.
Well, I had a long winded post about the min-maxing and cookie cutter play style ruining the STF experience for those who don't follow that play style... but I decided to go with this instead.
STO isn't the type of game where there are "Elite" players. Yes, you can be the uber player that only needs 2 people to conquer an elite level mission. However, what does that mean? What benefits are there? None. STO doesn't keep a "winners" and "losers" list. The closest would be the rewards at the end of certain missions or a title that accompanies an accolade. The increased difficulty and rewards that accompany Elite level missions is what makes them "Elite".
Increasing the difficulty will only hurt the majority of the player base who participate in these missions. I don't think that anyone would argue that the majority of players think the Elite STF's are too "easy" at current. The learning curve from Normal to Elite is very steep. There are no practice levels between the two difficulties, so making Elites even harder will result in far more frustration... especially when "newbs" that don't already have STF gear join in.
My suggestions for making your gameplay more "difficult":
1. Do not join pre-mades. Only join pugs.
2. Switch weapon type or energy type.
3. Switch ship class.
4. Use only level I abilities, or better yet, use fewer abilities.
5. Use lower leveled gear.
6. Don't heal damage to ship systems.
7. And this one might be interesting to try: don't train the captain in any skills.
See? Elites can be more difficult if you want them to be.
Artificially creating difficulty has never satisfied anyone.
Completely agree with the op. There is absolutely no way that an elite setting stf should be doable with no less than 5 players, and that's not even including optionals. This is supposed to be the most challenging content the game has to offer. It's high time for cryptic/pwe to make elite stf's ELITE again.
My only concern with this is that ... individuals that join the "elite" STF that are not capable to handle the level and want to do it for the rewards. This becomes very important, if you introduce any rewards that peak the persons interest or make it exclusive to the "elite" level only (this includes: titles, loot, dil, uniform ...)
I have done a number of elite STF and failing the optional causes people to do a rage fit or leave the game/mission ... which is annoying (as we not are down to 4/3 players). If you ask on the chat channel (mostly) I have found that individuals were not aware or destroyed the cube(/whatever) when they did not mean to.
I'm all for the new level of "elite" ... but there has to be a balance of training/accepting that you will lose some missions and staying relaxed (and continue to play) or put rewards in there that minimizes everyone /most people wanting them (or make that available in an alternative way ... this removes the uniqueness of it and we are back to square one)
One option, is having a box that includes players into a more difficult STF, which groups you with other people with the same goal (where restrictions can be placed, such as no ranged weapons)
My only concern with this is that ... individuals that join the "elite" STF that are not capable to handle the level and want to do it for the rewards. This becomes very important, if you introduce any rewards that peak the persons interest or make it exclusive to the "elite" level only (this includes: titles, loot, dil, uniform ...)
I have done a number of elite STF and failing the optional causes people to do a rage fit or leave the game/mission ... which is annoying (as we not are down to 4/3 players). If you ask on the chat channel (mostly) I have found that individuals were not aware or destroyed the cube(/whatever) when they did not mean to.
I'm all for the new level of "elite" ... but there has to be a balance of training/accepting that you will lose some missions and staying relaxed (and continue to play) or put rewards in there that minimizes everyone /most people wanting them (or make that available in an alternative way ... this removes the uniqueness of it and we are back to square one)
One option, is having a box that includes players into a more difficult STF, which groups you with other people with the same goal (where restrictions can be placed, such as no ranged weapons)
That's my 2 cents anyway
Unfortunately, the issue with the trolls and griefers is something that no amount of programming can fix. (The /ignore function is close (except you can still be teamed with them in the queues)).
I would expect to lose missions with increased difficulty.. (actually mission loss should always be possible (instead of just continuing to pound away at the boss for hours ad nauseum). It is possible to fail Cure Space, and Khitomer Space... why not the rest... Optional Loss does not equal Mission loss. And should be easier to outright lose at higher levels of difficulty.
Now, a previous poster has recommended that I spend some time away from pre-made/channel teams... and truth be told despite the occassional griefer/troll/elitist... it has increased the difficulty some... but even the random queue groups aren't that bad... still hitting the optionals at least 75%-80%.
I want a level of difficulty that requires a lot of coordination, a lot of communication, a lot of cross role assistance (tanks, healers, dps doers). I've recently taken up liking NWS. Not an STF, and awards TRIBBLE... but I can't get enough...
In no win, getting to level 6 with a group evokes cheers from the team... you spend some time talking after the mission (add new friends)... plan to try again... what went wrong etc.
I haven't progressed beyond level 6... I can see the pride beaming from those who beat it, or reached levels 8, 9, or 10... I see it in their posts... in the conversations I have with them on other channels... am I envious... sure, but not to a point that I want to see the mission changed 1 iota. I want that level of difficulty to continue so it is an accomplishment to complete.
Surprisingly few trolls in there, they've given up I think because the goal isn't a ton of marks, or dilithium, or gear... its the sense of accomplishment (and a title).
In the same light, I'd ask that new optionals be added to Elite STF's that require the same type of coordination and effort... award nothing more than a title (maybe a 0 death (similar to the optional in HSE (keep 1 person alive against boss, 4 throughout the rest of the mission) accolade for each STF)... those who dont care about such things will ignore it (they'll still get their mission completion awards) and wont lose out on anything.
I have to say, I have thoroughly enjoyed the new content. All of it.
I've read many QQ'ing threads already regarding the difficulty of the Onslaught Mission. My take; The other Elite STF's need to be brought to this level of difficulty
As I am sure many of you have read on the forums... the existing Space Elite STF's have been nerfed to a point that they can be completed (with optional) with 2 Man Teams.
I have felt for sometime that AT BEST, the existing Elite STF's should be called Advanced.... the level of difficulty in Elite Onslaught is truly Elite!
The existing Space STF's are pure Tac DPS fests. Not Onslaught! You want a mix of classes and players!
If you call yourself Elite... then you should be thrilled by the challenge, and starting to devise strategies to test. If you call yourself Elite, and find it too difficult... go back to normal.
Thank you Cryptic... Finally FINALLY an Elite STF that can rightfully call itself Elite!
how about no.
What you are a talking about is not difficulty. Its tediousness. There is no challenge in exploiting recognized patterns and simply waiting for hp bars to drop.
Diffilculty is nort produced by giving the mob a million more hp and making it capable of instant killing you. That is fake difficulty. Its a waste of time - the time of your players.
Difficulty would be NPC having proper battlegroups that are designed to work in a team. Cross healing, spider tanking, use of crowd control (why the hell are the BORG OF ALL THINGS?! not spamming viral matrixes?!).
That i can get behind.
Simply upping the amount of time needed to burn those AI cripples however is something i detest greatly.
Comments
I look forward to seeing how a prepared team handles it
No, they showed you were willing to grind long enough for the RNG to favor you or that you were lucky enough to get it right away, nothing more.
As for the New ones, i like that they're tactical in terms of planning and teamwork equals success, not DPS=awesome, but at the same time, the damage outputs are too high. With teams in full MK XII stf gear, a single normal tac drone should not being almost wiping out the shields and health of the whole team in a single spray. The Queen and elite drones i can see doing that, the heavy tacs, maybe here and there, but the smaller drones not so much.
Adding in the cage rather than just the lock out was a great idea as well. Being taken out of a game sucks, but when it's possible (not easy, just possible) it makes that time so much better. The floor panels and platform were a nice touch, although i'd rather have a plasma or electrified floor since falling that far usually doesn't do much damage, something there to indicate insta-death aside from a shortfall would be nice.
Let's face it, the NPCs in Onslaught are far more realistic:
Less health
More skills
Seemingly more intelligent
A better level of damage output (I never got 1 shotted)
It was quite refreshing to actually have to THINK (I know, it's shocking) about what was going on and prioritise targets as necessary. Onslaught is difficult BECAUSE it's not a DPS race with in my opinion is a good thing.
A lot of peeps will prob start complaining that they're not guaranteed to get rewards any more, so maybe you could have it like some of the FAs where rewards are doled out progressively as you scale through the mission.
vids and guides and stuff
[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
Compared to how ridiculously easy they are to get right now, why not? I mean if you're going to make "elite" mean anything at all...?
vids and guides and stuff
[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
I understand your point... but my point to increasing the difficulty (or my suggestion at least) has nothing to do with new gear. Or more rewards... I've stated before... I am fine if the Elite STF giving no more rewards than the Advanced STF (Current Elite). The only thing I would like is to have some sort of accolade, title, uniform option (notice nothing about sets, gear, or passives). In a way, I look at this similar to the No Win Scenario accolades/titles... I haven't achieved these (yet)... and for that reason alone... i continue to run the mission, looking to devise a strategy (offer my virtue to the ones I see get the accolade). The rewards are secondary to me.
I am not looking for a new grind.. I am looking for an award for skill. An outward sign stating "This guy knows what he's doing". Something to be proud of achieving. Even if others get it before me... even if I never achieve it... it is something to work for. That to me is the why I play.
In this thread, others have commented that Mk XII gear was supposed to be that... but it really wasn't... since it was a matter of grind... you run it enough times, you get the gear. There is no indication of skill here. When I first got the Maco Elite Commander title... I was ecstatic... changed my title the second I could. Then ran some more STF's on the grind for tech... saw others with the same title... that were... shall we say.. less quality of a player. Saw the posts of many who got their entire set in a week... saw those (who were hands down better than I at these missions) still grinding after hundreds to get that piece of technology. So long story short (I know... too late) the current rewards have nothing to do with skill (and neither the reputation system, doff system, nor fleetbase system). They are a testament to grind... and while i'll continue to work on them... in the end it doesn't say "that guy is an elite player".
Star Trek Online, Now with out the Trek....
A team that loses every game (in sto terms fails every optional), gets the same trophy/award as those who excel. How is that motivating for the team who never lost a match... who practiced hard to win all those games).
Star Trek Online, Now with out the Trek....
Optionals aren't optionals if you measure the quality of a player or group by their completion of them.
That's always been a problem I had with that.
A proper dungeon optional is, well... Genuinely optional. You don't get it by playing better or faster all the time. You get it by doing something extra. By inconveniencing yourself.
To my way of thinking a proper optional would be completing Infected Ground (including Rebecca) without using any ranged weapons. Or fighting an extra boss. This hokeypokey DPS race stuff isn't an optional. It's having a content designer as a backseat driver, defining skill in terms of everyone having read a wiki for undocumented information.
A good team is a team that can finish it. If you want a true skill measure, require skill to finish it. And if you want to keep people motivated, have rewards at each tier.
I'm, overall, more impressed with players who get a perfect Starbase Incursion than with players who have STF optionals, because the latter just means you used pre-made teams and read a wiki.
STO isn't the type of game where there are "Elite" players. Yes, you can be the uber player that only needs 2 people to conquer an elite level mission. However, what does that mean? What benefits are there? None. STO doesn't keep a "winners" and "losers" list. The closest would be the rewards at the end of certain missions or a title that accompanies an accolade. The increased difficulty and rewards that accompany Elite level missions is what makes them "Elite".
Increasing the difficulty will only hurt the majority of the player base who participate in these missions. I don't think that anyone would argue that the majority of players think the Elite STF's are too "easy" at current. The learning curve from Normal to Elite is very steep. There are no practice levels between the two difficulties, so making Elites even harder will result in far more frustration... especially when "newbs" that don't already have STF gear join in.
My suggestions for making your gameplay more "difficult":
1. Do not join pre-mades. Only join pugs.
2. Switch weapon type or energy type.
3. Switch ship class.
4. Use only level I abilities, or better yet, use fewer abilities.
5. Use lower leveled gear.
6. Don't heal damage to ship systems.
7. And this one might be interesting to try: don't train the captain in any skills.
See? Elites can be more difficult if you want them to be.
I think you completely miss the point and can't understand what people looking for challenges want. We'll ALWAYS do our best with the best possible gear, strategies, etc. That's why we would like another difficulty level. To do our best with the best stuff we have.
God, lvl 60 CW. 17k.
The only problem with optionals is that they are entirely dependent on DPS up til this point. These new optionals that test survivability as well are a step in the right direction, and are a measure the ability of a group to work in concert.
Artificially creating difficulty has never satisfied anyone.
I have done a number of elite STF and failing the optional causes people to do a rage fit or leave the game/mission ... which is annoying (as we not are down to 4/3 players). If you ask on the chat channel (mostly) I have found that individuals were not aware or destroyed the cube(/whatever) when they did not mean to.
I'm all for the new level of "elite" ... but there has to be a balance of training/accepting that you will lose some missions and staying relaxed (and continue to play) or put rewards in there that minimizes everyone /most people wanting them (or make that available in an alternative way ... this removes the uniqueness of it and we are back to square one)
One option, is having a box that includes players into a more difficult STF, which groups you with other people with the same goal (where restrictions can be placed, such as no ranged weapons)
That's my 2 cents anyway
Unfortunately, the issue with the trolls and griefers is something that no amount of programming can fix. (The /ignore function is close (except you can still be teamed with them in the queues)).
I would expect to lose missions with increased difficulty.. (actually mission loss should always be possible (instead of just continuing to pound away at the boss for hours ad nauseum). It is possible to fail Cure Space, and Khitomer Space... why not the rest... Optional Loss does not equal Mission loss. And should be easier to outright lose at higher levels of difficulty.
Now, a previous poster has recommended that I spend some time away from pre-made/channel teams... and truth be told despite the occassional griefer/troll/elitist... it has increased the difficulty some... but even the random queue groups aren't that bad... still hitting the optionals at least 75%-80%.
I want a level of difficulty that requires a lot of coordination, a lot of communication, a lot of cross role assistance (tanks, healers, dps doers). I've recently taken up liking NWS. Not an STF, and awards TRIBBLE... but I can't get enough...
In no win, getting to level 6 with a group evokes cheers from the team... you spend some time talking after the mission (add new friends)... plan to try again... what went wrong etc.
I haven't progressed beyond level 6... I can see the pride beaming from those who beat it, or reached levels 8, 9, or 10... I see it in their posts... in the conversations I have with them on other channels... am I envious... sure, but not to a point that I want to see the mission changed 1 iota. I want that level of difficulty to continue so it is an accomplishment to complete.
Surprisingly few trolls in there, they've given up I think because the goal isn't a ton of marks, or dilithium, or gear... its the sense of accomplishment (and a title).
In the same light, I'd ask that new optionals be added to Elite STF's that require the same type of coordination and effort... award nothing more than a title (maybe a 0 death (similar to the optional in HSE (keep 1 person alive against boss, 4 throughout the rest of the mission) accolade for each STF)... those who dont care about such things will ignore it (they'll still get their mission completion awards) and wont lose out on anything.
Star Trek Online, Now with out the Trek....
how about no.
What you are a talking about is not difficulty. Its tediousness. There is no challenge in exploiting recognized patterns and simply waiting for hp bars to drop.
Diffilculty is nort produced by giving the mob a million more hp and making it capable of instant killing you. That is fake difficulty. Its a waste of time - the time of your players.
Difficulty would be NPC having proper battlegroups that are designed to work in a team. Cross healing, spider tanking, use of crowd control (why the hell are the BORG OF ALL THINGS?! not spamming viral matrixes?!).
That i can get behind.
Simply upping the amount of time needed to burn those AI cripples however is something i detest greatly.