It very well could be a Deep Space Science. Since it doesn't seem to have an official designation, not that I could find in Memory Alpha or Ex Astris Scientia. Although I'm still in favor of having it as a Cruiser. Simply because I'm an Engineer. Not that this would prevent me from using it, I have a Deep Space Science Vessel.
I have little intention of getting the Chimera, it bothers me greatly by its design. I'd much prefer to have seen the Legacy-class, or Century-class as alternatives now those are two beautiful fan made vessels.
Back on topic:
How would one, if the Niagara per say came as a skin. How do you present that, if you are Cryptic/PWE. She's got three nacelles versus the Ambassador's two.
On top of this, what consoles would you offer the Ambassador/Niagara and do you add two alternative skins to aid in this new 'kit-bashing.'
The size differential, plus the added nacelle, I'm not sure the Niagara could even be an Ambassador skin. It may need to be its' own ship. And why not? Would be much more fun having another ship anyway vs. just a skin. And then the Devs could play around with the ship and what it could potentially offer.
HMM, the Niagara is, oversimplified, an Ambassador with 3 Galaxy nacelles and a bigger saucer.
So she has a bigger internal volume than the Ambassador and can theoretically carry a larger crew compliment and additional cargo bays (for spare parts etc.) and transporters.
Let's use this to our advantage.
In one of the old Ambassador class threads I proposed a few different special abilities that might go well with that class.
One that might actually be even better suited for a ship with such an enlarged saucer.
Special Ability: Damage Control Team
The large saucer on the Niagara provides excellent room for a high crew compliment and additional support facilities.
In emergency situations Damage Control Teams that consist of specialists from all departments can be deployed on the ship itself or quickly beamed to allied ships in need.
Effect:
The combined effects of Science, Engineering, and Tactical Team 2 restore the ship to working order and provide the defenses needed to keep it running under advese conditions.
Cooldown: 3 minutes.
The size differential, plus the added nacelle, I'm not sure the Niagara could even be an Ambassador skin. It may need to be its' own ship. And why not? Would be much more fun having another ship anyway vs. just a skin. And then the Devs could play around with the ship and what it could potentially offer.
The large saucer on the Niagara provides excellent room for a high crew compliment and additional support facilities.
In emergency situations Damage Control Teams that consist of specialists from all departments can be deployed on the ship itself or quickly beamed to allied ships in need.
Effect:
The combined effects of Science, Engineering, and Tactical Team 2 restore the ship to working order and provide the defenses needed to keep it running under advese conditions.
Cooldown: 3 minutes.
I approve whole heartily of both. Aforementioned, I am in love with the Niagara having had one in a play by forum.
Now my feel is that she's a fast little buggar, and that little healing ability would assist her greatly. I also don't recall if she was featured in some actual table top RP book or not, but the Niagara is more suited to a dog fight. Her speed is her best friend as she wasn't exactly armed to the teeth but her turn rate should be above that of a normal in-game cruiser.
I won't say she could keep pace with that Defiant [ENG - Speaking], but she could certainly give it a run for its money.
I'm sorry but I'll have to disagree with you, at least when it comes to impulse speeds.
The Niagara must be a very heavy ship and from the few available images, she only has a single impulse engine in the neck like the Ambassador.
This may sound confusing so I'll try to explain what I mean.
According to the TNG Technical Manual, the warpcoils (only the warpcoils) from the two nacelles make up 25% of a Galaxy's mass.
The Niagara is based on an Ambassador frame and is fitted with nacelles that are much bigger than those on a conventional Ambassador...and on top of that with three of them.
Thus at impulse speeds the ship has to carry a lot of "dead weight".
Because from what information is available that is all they are at impulse speeds.
This might also explain why there are so few ships with more than two nacelles: it's a tradeoff between not straining the engines at high speed and adequate maneuverability at sublight.
And somewhere a friend of mine has the PDF of this book, which lists a little more detail on the Niagara herself. She did make use of all three nacelles, thus making her that little fast cruiser. I can certainly see where her dead weight might come into play.
But as Data once put it, "fully functional."
That is the Niagara with all three of her Nacelles. It was that exact third nacelle that gave her, her energy boost. This was of course with a cost.
Edit: Nevermind, my friend deleted said book u.u and yeah... T_T
"Critics who say that the optimistic utopia Star Trek depicted is now outmoded forget the cultural context that gave birth to it: Star Trek was not a manifestation of optimism when optimism was easy. Star Trek declared a hope for a future that nobody stuck in the present could believe in. For all our struggles today, we haven’t outgrown the need for stories like Star Trek. We need tales of optimism, of heroes, of courage and goodness now as much as we’ve ever needed them." -Thomas Marrone
And somewhere a friend of mine has the PDF of this book, which lists a little more detail on the Niagara herself. She did make use of all three nacelles, thus making her that little fast cruiser. I can certainly see where her dead weight might come into play.
But as Data once put it, "fully functional."
That is the Niagara with all three of her Nacelles. It was that exact third nacelle that gave her, her energy boost. This was of course with a cost.
Edit: Nevermind, my friend deleted said book u.u and yeah... T_T
If we take this as a proper soft-canon source, we still end up with a clear explanation for the term "Fast Cruiser": her FTL speed, not impulse.
According to this PDF her distinct advantage over the Istanbul class is her higher maximum speed of Warp 9.6 as opposed to the Istanbul's 9.5 and the Ambassador's 9.2.
So I'm afraid my estimation that she'd not be particularly fast at impulse (which is of course only my estimation based on my observation of how the ship is structured) is at least not refuted.
Her secondary impulse engine was intended for [at least on soft canon], for emergency power/extra power to which I assume would go to Auxiliary Systems, if this is implemented in game?
She is less armed and is more or less suited to diplomatic missions, which would then perhaps in-game since we're throwing around titles. Classify her as a 'Diplomatic Cruiser.'
Her secondary impulse engine was intended for [at least on soft canon], for emergency power/extra power to which I assume would go to Auxiliary Systems, if this is implemented in game?
She is less armed and is more or less suited to diplomatic missions, which would then perhaps in-game since we're throwing around titles. Classify her as a 'Diplomatic Cruiser.'
Perhaps gaining some boosts to Diplomatic XP?
There's not really a ton of official canon information about the Niagara, so the Devs would probably have a well portioned amount of leeway when designing it. And that's a good thing. However it is made, it would give players 1 more ship choice. A destroyer would be nice. Since the Ambassador is already on the way, anything but a Cruiser would probably be a nice addition to the game.
Indeed, though I take into consideration that the New Orleans would fulfill that 'destroyer' role. Springfield would correspond with Science, leaving the Niagara to a Cruiser status.
Though having the Niagara regardless of her status as a vessel of her own, would be nice.
Her secondary impulse engine was intended for [at least on soft canon], for emergency power/extra power to which I assume would go to Auxiliary Systems, if this is implemented in game?
She is less armed and is more or less suited to diplomatic missions, which would then perhaps in-game since we're throwing around titles. Classify her as a 'Diplomatic Cruiser.'
Perhaps gaining some boosts to Diplomatic XP?
I've desperately tried to figure out the thing with the secondary impulse engines myself.
However to me the locations don't actually fit the ship.
The first set is supposedly located in "Saucer Aft Port and Starboard" and is "Class 8"
while the second is in "Engineering Aft", "Class 5".
I've compared that to the Ambassador in the PDF.
The Ambassador has only one set "Engineering Aft", "Class 5".
So my guess is that's the impulse engine engine in the neck.
There are however no additional visible impulse engines on the Niagara except the one it has "inherited" from the Ambassador.
My best guess at this point is this:
When the book was made, the authors assumed the Niagara was using a Galaxy-style saucer along with the impulse engines, either a fullsize version or a scaled-down model like the Cheyenne.
This would also fit the discription of the Cheyenne impulse engines that are described as "saucer aft".
Unfortunately this is not reflected in the most recently released images of the Niagara model used in "Best of Both Worlds".
There are however some additional options open (in theory).
Why not make the Niagara a Science-Cruiser Hybrid in a different sense than the Nebula?
Armament 4/3 with no Sensor Analysis but a higher amount of power overall.
This would fit the reduced armament compared to to other ships of her size while giving her an ende in other ways.
I'm thinking somehting like
+5 to Weapons and Engines
+10 to Shields and Aux
This way she'd be more of a "Combat Support Cruiser" in function, even though she can easily still be called a "Diplomatic Cruiser" as a class.
The added power bonus could be explained by the fact that the larger saucer contains additional power generators that are used to boost denfenses and provide additional amenities important dignitaries (the latter out fo combat of course).
I can see that yes, and would this be in addition to the said ability you mentioned earlier? Or in-part of the hybrid would that ability go to console? I don't want to over power the Niagara because she's not going to outpace any of the bigger guns in games, by any means but she would have her advantages certainly.
I would propose that she'd be added as a "Fleet" vessel as well, seeing how her cousin the Cheyenne is listed in as a "Fleet" version. I am certainly aiming to grab the Cheyenne as a "Fleet" since I never grabbed her while leveilng my main.
its hard to classify ships like this , since so little has been released about them , but from an STO perspective , i could see this being a dreadnought-lite
not as powerful as the refitted galaxy , but with a better turn to compensate , thats just my take on it however
I personally have always loved the Niagara class ship and have wished to see it added to the game. Personally I would like to see it added as a Refit class with both the original and an updated 2409 look to it. However as many of you have stated; what type of ship is it?
To that I say lets take a look back at history and see what historical fast cruisers were intended to do.
In the 1890's before the first dreadnaughts the armored cruiser was becoming the standard in line of battle doctrine. These cruisers were however inefficient and could not travel far from coaling stations. To empires and aspiring empires this was inconvenient to say the least. For that reason a sub class of cruiser was created. These ships fit between the light and heavy cruiser classes and were known as Fast Armored Cruisers.
Now the name is misleading as these cruisers weren't especially fast. In fact most could be run down by their normal counterparts or early dreadnaughts. The advantage these cruisers held was range and endurance at speed, which far surpassed anything else afloat. It was cruisers such as these that came to make up the bulk of the South Atlantic and Far East fleets of many nations. So it had range, but what did it actually do?
Well from the 1890's to the early 1920's the fast armored cruiser had a few important roles. The first of course was power projection at the edges of the empire. While not as armored as her standard cousin she had the same, if not larger guns. This idea eventually morphed into the battlecruisers and pocket battleships of WWII fame. A second role of note was that these cruisers would ferry high ranking diplomats around the world. Due to their ability to go long distances at near full speed, these ships were the fastest available transportation in the days before transoceanic flight. Not to mention having a few 8in guns to back you up makes one heck of an opening statement. Lastly these ships with their ability to range far from the home shores served in the role of commerce raiders. The French affectionately nicknamed theirs Corsair Cruisers.
Now with the history lesson over, the historical uses for Fast Armored cruisers sounds similar to the limited canon available for the Niagara doesn't it? Range and endurance for scientific missions, the ability to move diplomats quickly. Sounds like things the Federation would want out of a ship. But commerce raiding... No never, not the Feds... The Orions though... Now the door is open to giving the KDF boys a new toy to play with as well. Something like http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Wanderer_class perhaps?
So how would that play out as an in game ship? I'd personally say as a more combat oriented Science ship. Maybe something like this...
its hard to classify ships like this , since so little has been released about them , but from an STO perspective , i could see this being a dreadnought-lite
not as powerful as the refitted galaxy , but with a better turn to compensate , thats just my take on it however
Keep in mind that the Borg Cube, which in STO is a battleship and therefore weaker than a dreadnought, trashed at least one Niagara at Wolf 359. A cruiser/escort/science vessel would be better, since they're weaker than the Borg Cube but still strong enough to hold their own most of the time.
"Critics who say that the optimistic utopia Star Trek depicted is now outmoded forget the cultural context that gave birth to it: Star Trek was not a manifestation of optimism when optimism was easy. Star Trek declared a hope for a future that nobody stuck in the present could believe in. For all our struggles today, we haven’t outgrown the need for stories like Star Trek. We need tales of optimism, of heroes, of courage and goodness now as much as we’ve ever needed them." -Thomas Marrone
I can see that yes, and would this be in addition to the said ability you mentioned earlier? Or in-part of the hybrid would that ability go to console? I don't want to over power the Niagara because she's not going to outpace any of the bigger guns in games, by any means but she would have her advantages certainly.
I would propose that she'd be added as a "Fleet" vessel as well, seeing how her cousin the Cheyenne is listed in as a "Fleet" version. I am certainly aiming to grab the Cheyenne as a "Fleet" since I never grabbed her while leveilng my main.
I'm actually worried this would still be underpowered.
"True" Science ships use their Sensor Analysis ability to gradually increase the damage of all their weapons so eventhaully they reach pretty much cruiser level.
It just takes some time.
The "Hybrid" I proposed would lack this yet have only 7 weapons overall.
So this would actually be a somewhat undergunned ship.
As compensation she'd have the added powerbonus I described.
And since console abilities take up a slot I'd say the power bonus can be inherited from the overall classification while the ability can come from a console.
I'm sorry if this didn't become any clearer in my other post.
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
The ship is as canon as the Cheyenne.
Stats are at least soft-canon but since the Last Unicorn RPG and STO are very different we can use it as inspiration...or not.
Just like the special ability that I proposed that's pure speculation.
What movie or series show was it I'n I don't
Remember ever seeing it ?
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
There are additional ones for each individual ship as well but since this thread is primarily about the Niagara this one should suffice for this topic:
Just pointing this out Mister. Under your current setup you have the Niagara giving a bonus of +30 power across all systems. Currently the limit is +15 for escorts, science and hybrids, with +20 for cruisers. Its something Cryptic would never go for. And TBH, it would make the ship really op, because if my fitting ideas are on the mark, and considering time on target; it would out DPS anything but escorts and be able to out tank anything currently in game.
Just pointing this out Mister. Under your current setup you have the Niagara giving a bonus of +30 power across all systems. Currently the limit is +15 for escorts, science and hybrids, with +20 for cruisers. Its something Cryptic would never go for. And TBH, it would make the ship really op, because if my fitting ideas are on the mark, and considering time on target; it would out DPS anything but escorts and be able to out tank anything currently in game.
As I already tried to point out, it would only have 7 weapons and no Sensor Analysis (so no 33% bonus over time that counters the fact that Science ships have only 6 weapons).
Did you factor that into your analysis?
And I did not take your BO layout onto consideration, how could I have done so since you posted it after I had posted my idea?
Well lets take a comparative look at two tier 5 ships. Lets use the Excelsior refit z-store ship and a DSSV modified to your stats, with both captains having 6 points in each warp core skill. We'll use the balanced power option as the disparity only become greater in other options or custom settings.
Mind you, that you still have the Niagara getting the target subsystems sci ability which effectively increases its attack or defense over time by disabling enemy systems.
Now as far as consoles lets run with stock DSSV consoles for the Niagara, so we come up with this.
Excelsior- Tac 3 / Eng 4 / Sci 2
Niagara- Tac 2 / Eng 3 / Sci 4
Now most people would say that the Excel should out tank the Niagara. However we have to factor in the Niagara's greater base shield strength. Her extra Sci consoles to improve said shield, and her greater engine which gives her a defense bonus from her higher speed. In addition she still has that subsystem targeting and a host of Sci abilities to mitigate damage. Along with increase maneuverability to change shield facings if needed.
Damage wise most would still say the Excelsior has the advantage. Now base, unmodified by power; a standard 7 Mk XII Common beam broadside from the Excel would have 1,232 DPS with consoles to bring that up. Now figuring the standard Sci point your nose and tank and spank tactic. A Niagara with 3 DBB Mk XII Common and 3 Mk XII Common Turrets would have a base DPS of 1,083. Now that 150 DPS disparity would only be increased by the added console on the Excelsior. However the Niagara's tank a spank fighting style would allow it to also keep its Quantum torp in play more often than the Excel. In addition her Sci abilities can take down the enemy shield and keep them held in place to fire on that opening. Damage over time the Niagara would win out.
But just for a second imagine a Niagara in defense mode. You be looking at facing a ship with stats like these.
Weapons 79 / Shields 125 / Engines 65 / Aux 65
Which depending on the captain could be flown like a tank, or a Hvy Escort. That is not a ship I would want to face. Good Sci captains are hard to beat, lets not make bad Sci captains just as capable.
Well lets take a comparative look at two tier 5 ships. Lets use the Excelsior refit z-store ship and a DSSV modified to your stats, with both captains having 6 points in each warp core skill. We'll use the balanced power option as the disparity only become greater in other options or custom settings.
Mind you, that you still have the Niagara getting the target subsystems sci ability which effectively increases its attack or defense over time by disabling enemy systems.
Now as far as consoles lets run with stock DSSV consoles for the Niagara, so we come up with this.
Excelsior- Tac 3 / Eng 4 / Sci 2
Niagara- Tac 2 / Eng 3 / Sci 4
Now most people would say that the Excel should out tank the Niagara. However we have to factor in the Niagara's greater base shield strength. Her extra Sci consoles to improve said shield, and her greater engine which gives her a defense bonus from her higher speed. In addition she still has that subsystem targeting and a host of Sci abilities to mitigate damage. Along with increase maneuverability to change shield facings if needed.
Damage wise most would still say the Excelsior has the advantage. Now base, unmodified by power; a standard 7 Mk XII Common beam broadside from the Excel would have 1,232 DPS with consoles to bring that up. Now figuring the standard Sci point your nose and tank and spank tactic. A Niagara with 3 DBB Mk XII Common and 3 Mk XII Common Turrets would have a base DPS of 1,083. Now that 150 DPS disparity would only be increased by the added console on the Excelsior. However the Niagara's tank a spank fighting style would allow it to also keep its Quantum torp in play more often than the Excel. In addition her Sci abilities can take down the enemy shield and keep them held in place to fire on that opening. Damage over time the Niagara would win out.
But just for a second imagine a Niagara in defense mode. You be looking at facing a ship with stats like these.
Weapons 79 / Shields 125 / Engines 65 / Aux 65
Which depending on the captain could be flown like a tank, or a Hvy Escort. That is not a ship I would want to face. Good Sci captains are hard to beat, lets not make bad Sci captains just as capable.
Considering we have nt talked about shields, hull or turnrate, why don't we do that before jumping to conclusions?
For the record: I HATE overpowered ships.
What I meant by Science-Cruiser Hybrid was actually a ship that's based on a cruiser (like the Star Cruiser or Galaxy) with an LtC Science and no Science-Specific gimmicks.
That's why I called it a "Diplomatic Cruiser", not a "Diplomatic Science ship".;)
The idea was to trade an aft weapons slot for extra power, not some OP instawinproboat.
Comments
I was thinking of a science or attack cruiser maybe. The options on how to use it is there.
USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
Races Wanted: Half-Orc | Gnome | Warforged
The size differential, plus the added nacelle, I'm not sure the Niagara could even be an Ambassador skin. It may need to be its' own ship. And why not? Would be much more fun having another ship anyway vs. just a skin. And then the Devs could play around with the ship and what it could potentially offer.
So she has a bigger internal volume than the Ambassador and can theoretically carry a larger crew compliment and additional cargo bays (for spare parts etc.) and transporters.
Let's use this to our advantage.
In one of the old Ambassador class threads I proposed a few different special abilities that might go well with that class.
One that might actually be even better suited for a ship with such an enlarged saucer.
Special Ability: Damage Control Team
The large saucer on the Niagara provides excellent room for a high crew compliment and additional support facilities.
In emergency situations Damage Control Teams that consist of specialists from all departments can be deployed on the ship itself or quickly beamed to allied ships in need.
Effect:
The combined effects of Science, Engineering, and Tactical Team 2 restore the ship to working order and provide the defenses needed to keep it running under advese conditions.
Cooldown: 3 minutes.
And...
I approve whole heartily of both. Aforementioned, I am in love with the Niagara having had one in a play by forum.
Now my feel is that she's a fast little buggar, and that little healing ability would assist her greatly. I also don't recall if she was featured in some actual table top RP book or not, but the Niagara is more suited to a dog fight. Her speed is her best friend as she wasn't exactly armed to the teeth but her turn rate should be above that of a normal in-game cruiser.
I won't say she could keep pace with that Defiant [ENG - Speaking], but she could certainly give it a run for its money.
Would that be an agreeable trait for the Niagara?
Races Wanted: Half-Orc | Gnome | Warforged
The Niagara must be a very heavy ship and from the few available images, she only has a single impulse engine in the neck like the Ambassador.
This may sound confusing so I'll try to explain what I mean.
According to the TNG Technical Manual, the warpcoils (only the warpcoils) from the two nacelles make up 25% of a Galaxy's mass.
The Niagara is based on an Ambassador frame and is fitted with nacelles that are much bigger than those on a conventional Ambassador...and on top of that with three of them.
Thus at impulse speeds the ship has to carry a lot of "dead weight".
Because from what information is available that is all they are at impulse speeds.
This might also explain why there are so few ships with more than two nacelles: it's a tradeoff between not straining the engines at high speed and adequate maneuverability at sublight.
She was large yes, but she was fast.
Memory Beta's Niagara Class
The Price of Freedom, RPG by Last Unicorn Games
And somewhere a friend of mine has the PDF of this book, which lists a little more detail on the Niagara herself. She did make use of all three nacelles, thus making her that little fast cruiser. I can certainly see where her dead weight might come into play.
But as Data once put it, "fully functional."
That is the Niagara with all three of her Nacelles. It was that exact third nacelle that gave her, her energy boost. This was of course with a cost.
Edit: Nevermind, my friend deleted said book u.u and yeah... T_T
This is all I have, the Memory Beta.
Races Wanted: Half-Orc | Gnome | Warforged
misskorya, this is for you. One of the nicest looking images of the Niagara I've been able to find online.
http://media.moddb.com/images/mods/1/14/13251/F_TNG_NIAGARA.jpg
but...
this one looks pretty good too: http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs51/f/2009/257/b/8/Gofer_by_Jetfreak74656.jpg
*tears well up in shear beauty, in an anim? style*
She's beautiful mon Capi-tan!
Thank you, though in all seriousness I shall save these and slap the latter onto my desktop!
Races Wanted: Half-Orc | Gnome | Warforged
Wow, that actually is a somewhat pretty ship.
"Critics who say that the optimistic utopia Star Trek depicted is now outmoded forget the cultural context that gave birth to it: Star Trek was not a manifestation of optimism when optimism was easy. Star Trek declared a hope for a future that nobody stuck in the present could believe in. For all our struggles today, we haven’t outgrown the need for stories like Star Trek. We need tales of optimism, of heroes, of courage and goodness now as much as we’ve ever needed them."
-Thomas Marrone
No need to give up so quickly;)
http://ebookbrowse.com/ship-recognition-manual-01-federation-star-fleet-pdf-d255804033
If we take this as a proper soft-canon source, we still end up with a clear explanation for the term "Fast Cruiser": her FTL speed, not impulse.
According to this PDF her distinct advantage over the Istanbul class is her higher maximum speed of Warp 9.6 as opposed to the Istanbul's 9.5 and the Ambassador's 9.2.
So I'm afraid my estimation that she'd not be particularly fast at impulse (which is of course only my estimation based on my observation of how the ship is structured) is at least not refuted.
Oh I see now. I stand corrected.
Her secondary impulse engine was intended for [at least on soft canon], for emergency power/extra power to which I assume would go to Auxiliary Systems, if this is implemented in game?
She is less armed and is more or less suited to diplomatic missions, which would then perhaps in-game since we're throwing around titles. Classify her as a 'Diplomatic Cruiser.'
Perhaps gaining some boosts to Diplomatic XP?
Races Wanted: Half-Orc | Gnome | Warforged
There's not really a ton of official canon information about the Niagara, so the Devs would probably have a well portioned amount of leeway when designing it. And that's a good thing. However it is made, it would give players 1 more ship choice. A destroyer would be nice. Since the Ambassador is already on the way, anything but a Cruiser would probably be a nice addition to the game.
Though having the Niagara regardless of her status as a vessel of her own, would be nice.
Races Wanted: Half-Orc | Gnome | Warforged
I've desperately tried to figure out the thing with the secondary impulse engines myself.
However to me the locations don't actually fit the ship.
The first set is supposedly located in "Saucer Aft Port and Starboard" and is "Class 8"
while the second is in "Engineering Aft", "Class 5".
I've compared that to the Ambassador in the PDF.
The Ambassador has only one set "Engineering Aft", "Class 5".
So my guess is that's the impulse engine engine in the neck.
There are however no additional visible impulse engines on the Niagara except the one it has "inherited" from the Ambassador.
My best guess at this point is this:
When the book was made, the authors assumed the Niagara was using a Galaxy-style saucer along with the impulse engines, either a fullsize version or a scaled-down model like the Cheyenne.
This would also fit the discription of the Cheyenne impulse engines that are described as "saucer aft".
Unfortunately this is not reflected in the most recently released images of the Niagara model used in "Best of Both Worlds".
There are however some additional options open (in theory).
Why not make the Niagara a Science-Cruiser Hybrid in a different sense than the Nebula?
Armament 4/3 with no Sensor Analysis but a higher amount of power overall.
This would fit the reduced armament compared to to other ships of her size while giving her an ende in other ways.
I'm thinking somehting like
+5 to Weapons and Engines
+10 to Shields and Aux
This way she'd be more of a "Combat Support Cruiser" in function, even though she can easily still be called a "Diplomatic Cruiser" as a class.
The added power bonus could be explained by the fact that the larger saucer contains additional power generators that are used to boost denfenses and provide additional amenities important dignitaries (the latter out fo combat of course).
I would propose that she'd be added as a "Fleet" vessel as well, seeing how her cousin the Cheyenne is listed in as a "Fleet" version. I am certainly aiming to grab the Cheyenne as a "Fleet" since I never grabbed her while leveilng my main.
Races Wanted: Half-Orc | Gnome | Warforged
not as powerful as the refitted galaxy , but with a better turn to compensate , thats just my take on it however
Rear Admiral , Engineering Division
U.S.S. Sheffield N.C.C. 92016
To that I say lets take a look back at history and see what historical fast cruisers were intended to do.
In the 1890's before the first dreadnaughts the armored cruiser was becoming the standard in line of battle doctrine. These cruisers were however inefficient and could not travel far from coaling stations. To empires and aspiring empires this was inconvenient to say the least. For that reason a sub class of cruiser was created. These ships fit between the light and heavy cruiser classes and were known as Fast Armored Cruisers.
Now the name is misleading as these cruisers weren't especially fast. In fact most could be run down by their normal counterparts or early dreadnaughts. The advantage these cruisers held was range and endurance at speed, which far surpassed anything else afloat. It was cruisers such as these that came to make up the bulk of the South Atlantic and Far East fleets of many nations. So it had range, but what did it actually do?
Well from the 1890's to the early 1920's the fast armored cruiser had a few important roles. The first of course was power projection at the edges of the empire. While not as armored as her standard cousin she had the same, if not larger guns. This idea eventually morphed into the battlecruisers and pocket battleships of WWII fame. A second role of note was that these cruisers would ferry high ranking diplomats around the world. Due to their ability to go long distances at near full speed, these ships were the fastest available transportation in the days before transoceanic flight. Not to mention having a few 8in guns to back you up makes one heck of an opening statement. Lastly these ships with their ability to range far from the home shores served in the role of commerce raiders. The French affectionately nicknamed theirs Corsair Cruisers.
Now with the history lesson over, the historical uses for Fast Armored cruisers sounds similar to the limited canon available for the Niagara doesn't it? Range and endurance for scientific missions, the ability to move diplomats quickly. Sounds like things the Federation would want out of a ship. But commerce raiding... No never, not the Feds... The Orions though... Now the door is open to giving the KDF boys a new toy to play with as well. Something like http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Wanderer_class perhaps?
So how would that play out as an in game ship? I'd personally say as a more combat oriented Science ship. Maybe something like this...
Rank: Rear Admiral
Tier: 5
Hull: 29,500
Shield Modifier: 1.2
Weapons 3 fore / 3 aft
Crew: 550
Bridge Officers: Lt. Cmdr Tac, Esgn Tac, Lt. Eng, Cmdr Sci, Lt. Sci
Device Slots: 3
Consoles: 3 Tactical, 2 Engineering, 4 Science
Turn Rate: 10
Impulse Modifier: .20
Inertia Rating: 35
Bonus Power: Weapons +5, Shields 0, Engines 0, Auxiliary +10
Abilities: Subsystem Targeting, Sensor Analysis
As far as a Universal console? Maybe it times the Federation got the http://www.stowiki.org/Universal_Consoles#Magnetometric_Generator and the Klinks the http://www.stowiki.org/Universal_Consoles#Point_Defense_System
Keep in mind that the Borg Cube, which in STO is a battleship and therefore weaker than a dreadnought, trashed at least one Niagara at Wolf 359. A cruiser/escort/science vessel would be better, since they're weaker than the Borg Cube but still strong enough to hold their own most of the time.
"Critics who say that the optimistic utopia Star Trek depicted is now outmoded forget the cultural context that gave birth to it: Star Trek was not a manifestation of optimism when optimism was easy. Star Trek declared a hope for a future that nobody stuck in the present could believe in. For all our struggles today, we haven’t outgrown the need for stories like Star Trek. We need tales of optimism, of heroes, of courage and goodness now as much as we’ve ever needed them."
-Thomas Marrone
I'm actually worried this would still be underpowered.
"True" Science ships use their Sensor Analysis ability to gradually increase the damage of all their weapons so eventhaully they reach pretty much cruiser level.
http://www.stowiki.org/Ability:_Sensor_Analysis
It just takes some time.
The "Hybrid" I proposed would lack this yet have only 7 weapons overall.
So this would actually be a somewhat undergunned ship.
As compensation she'd have the added powerbonus I described.
And since console abilities take up a slot I'd say the power bonus can be inherited from the overall classification while the ability can come from a console.
I'm sorry if this didn't become any clearer in my other post.
All of it's stats are not cannon
Still a nice ship
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
The ship is as canon as the Cheyenne.
Stats are at least soft-canon but since the Last Unicorn RPG and STO are very different we can use it as inspiration...or not.
Just like the special ability that I proposed that's pure speculation.
Remember ever seeing it ?
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
It was among the models specifically built for the wreckage scene in TNG "The Best of Both Worlds" part 2.
There is an extensive article on the shipsin general here:
http://ex-astris-scientia.org/articles/wolf359.htm
There are additional ones for each individual ship as well but since this thread is primarily about the Niagara this one should suffice for this topic:
http://ex-astris-scientia.org/articles/niagara.htm
Particularly the images where you can see people from the production staff with these ships shows that this is not about some fanfiction stuff.
As I already tried to point out, it would only have 7 weapons and no Sensor Analysis (so no 33% bonus over time that counters the fact that Science ships have only 6 weapons).
Did you factor that into your analysis?
And I did not take your BO layout onto consideration, how could I have done so since you posted it after I had posted my idea?
We would come out with these power levels.
Excelsior- Weapons 78 / Shield 78 / Engine 78 / Aux 78
Niagara- Weapons 78 / Shield 78 / Engine 83 / Aux 83
Mind you, that you still have the Niagara getting the target subsystems sci ability which effectively increases its attack or defense over time by disabling enemy systems.
Now as far as consoles lets run with stock DSSV consoles for the Niagara, so we come up with this.
Excelsior- Tac 3 / Eng 4 / Sci 2
Niagara- Tac 2 / Eng 3 / Sci 4
Now most people would say that the Excel should out tank the Niagara. However we have to factor in the Niagara's greater base shield strength. Her extra Sci consoles to improve said shield, and her greater engine which gives her a defense bonus from her higher speed. In addition she still has that subsystem targeting and a host of Sci abilities to mitigate damage. Along with increase maneuverability to change shield facings if needed.
Damage wise most would still say the Excelsior has the advantage. Now base, unmodified by power; a standard 7 Mk XII Common beam broadside from the Excel would have 1,232 DPS with consoles to bring that up. Now figuring the standard Sci point your nose and tank and spank tactic. A Niagara with 3 DBB Mk XII Common and 3 Mk XII Common Turrets would have a base DPS of 1,083. Now that 150 DPS disparity would only be increased by the added console on the Excelsior. However the Niagara's tank a spank fighting style would allow it to also keep its Quantum torp in play more often than the Excel. In addition her Sci abilities can take down the enemy shield and keep them held in place to fire on that opening. Damage over time the Niagara would win out.
But just for a second imagine a Niagara in defense mode. You be looking at facing a ship with stats like these.
Weapons 79 / Shields 125 / Engines 65 / Aux 65
Which depending on the captain could be flown like a tank, or a Hvy Escort. That is not a ship I would want to face. Good Sci captains are hard to beat, lets not make bad Sci captains just as capable.
Considering we have nt talked about shields, hull or turnrate, why don't we do that before jumping to conclusions?
For the record: I HATE overpowered ships.
What I meant by Science-Cruiser Hybrid was actually a ship that's based on a cruiser (like the Star Cruiser or Galaxy) with an LtC Science and no Science-Specific gimmicks.
That's why I called it a "Diplomatic Cruiser", not a "Diplomatic Science ship".;)
The idea was to trade an aft weapons slot for extra power, not some OP instawinproboat.