The assumption that the tech exists to make items that resist only Borg plasma is actually incorrect. The engine has the tech to check particulars of the target when a power is applied against that target. It does not have the ability to tell about the particulars of a source when someone is affected by a power from that source.
E.g: If you fire a weapon at the Borg, the engine can tell that your target is Borg and thus apply modifiers.
If you are hit by a Borg plasma weapon, the engine can tell that you were hit by plasma (because the weapon damage is of that type), but the engine does not report particulars about who fired the plasma. The engine thus cannot have a power on you (the person who was hit) that checks to see if the incoming damage was from Borg and then reduces it.
It is a difference in what information is visible depending upon whether a power is incoming or outgoing.
The only ways to have an item that resists plasma from Borg attacks would be to:
(a) Change all of the Borg's plasma weapons to be type "Borg plasma," which gets into the problem that Jeremy mentioned previously.
(b) Change all of the Borg's plasma weapons to have a separate damage entry if the target has a particular power (namely, the set item bonus power). Extremely unwieldy, very subject to bugs.
(c) Get new tech that allows targets to parse more information from the source of powers used on them.
I can see all that. I could however apply a debuff to any Borg in a large AoE range, right?
The only ways to have an item that resists plasma from Borg attacks would be to:
(a) Change all of the Borg's plasma weapons to be type "Borg plasma," which gets into the problem that Jeremy mentioned previously.
(b) Change all of the Borg's plasma weapons to have a separate damage entry if the target has a particular power (namely, the set item bonus power). Extremely unwieldy, very subject to bugs.
(c) Get new tech that allows targets to parse more information from the source of powers used on them.
Likwe i said myself, why wasn't it just a plain resist everything, no disadvantage to any specific type that way, i suspected there would be tech issues with any other option TBH.
That makes four non-plasma resistant non-relevant shields and four plasma resistant endgame shields. One of the four non-plasma resistant shields have resistances to specific damage types. The Reman shield is lacking in that area, but that may change in the future.
Fixed that for you.
_______________ CommanderDonatra@Capt.Sisko: ahhh is it supposed to do that? Norvo Tigan@dontdrunkimshoot: hell ya, maybe
Not to speak for drunk who has already said the same thing I would have but better than I would have already today, but, that's not how I read that. I don't think he's taking issue with the existence of must haves. The things that make these shields a must have are separate from the plasma resist. He's taking issue with tacking the plasma resist on just because it makes sense against the borg, and that four of the best shields associated with four of the best sets were all given the same treatment.
this is infant my position. i have in detail explained a solution to the specific problem of the plasma resist, the fact that the shields are must have are not really a problem. i don't really like that ether, but since everyone has them its a non issue.
The assumption that the tech exists to make items that resist only Borg plasma is actually incorrect. The engine has the tech to check particulars of the target when a power is applied against that target. It does not have the ability to tell about the particulars of a source when someone is affected by a power from that source.
E.g: If you fire a weapon at the Borg, the engine can tell that your target is Borg and thus apply modifiers.
If you are hit by a Borg plasma weapon, the engine can tell that you were hit by plasma (because the weapon damage is of that type), but the engine does not report particulars about who fired the plasma. The engine thus cannot have a power on you (the person who was hit) that checks to see if the incoming damage was from Borg and then reduces it.
It is a difference in what information is visible depending upon whether a power is incoming or outgoing.
The only ways to have an item that resists plasma from Borg attacks would be to:
(a) Change all of the Borg's plasma weapons to be type "Borg plasma," which gets into the problem that Jeremy mentioned previously.
(b) Change all of the Borg's plasma weapons to have a separate damage entry if the target has a particular power (namely, the set item bonus power). Extremely unwieldy, very subject to bugs.
(c) Get new tech that allows targets to parse more information from the source of powers used on them.
I think we can understand the reasoning for sure. It wasn't something you foresaw needing... and going back to recode weapon types, or add code likely to be buggy. I can understand completely.
Just thought I would throw my vote behind Option C there.... I know that one is likely the most work. I would think though that if your systems team was to implement this capability it would be a feature in the code you could use for future items... and I dare say I could see how that would come in very handy in other titles that share the Cryptic MMO engine.
Just like the borg weapons that have a chance to proc extra dmg against the borg... you could intro duce say shields that only proc there healing effect when under fire from borg... or really any other enemy you wish.... In other titles you could add defensive shields/armour or any other item really that would only have specific procs when they face say Boss level NPCs.... In other MMOS there is gear that works exactly in that manner, and I would assume on the system side they use some type of hook that would be very much the same.
I think it would be a great feature to add to the engine. I can see all sorts of intelligent uses for such a incoming dmg tag feature. It is likely worth the time your systems team would need to invest to add it to your engine for future use.
The level of information available to various elements of the system may depend on the specifics of the system. I don't work with the UI so I don't know what parameters are passed to display, but I can say from experience that a power set to give you resistance does not (at this time) have the ability to vary that resistance or to turn it off or on based on information from the source of damage. It can only give you resistance to a type of damage.
Does the tech exist to modify powers (or simply turn them on/off) based on the map or environment? Perhaps the plasma resist on these STF shields can be made only active in STFs (or for even more variety/balance, provide different levels of resist between Normal and Elite difficulties), thus effectively making them "STF Plasma resist". Not perfect, but if it's doable, at least PvP is plasma becomes more viable.
I can see all that. I could however apply a debuff to any Borg in a large AoE range, right?
That would actually make a lot of sense. What was that Enterprise episode...the doc, doses himself with some kind of radiation that kills the nanites. So make the shield have a 100% chance to proc an AoE (or make it debuff the attacker) debuff called "Delta(orwhatever) radiation burst" that debuffs damage for Borg.
The things that make these shields a must have are separate from the plasma resist.
I disagree.
They're "must have" shields outside of the plasma resists for min/maxers (myself included).
We can't say the same for the general playerbase.
Would people still desire these shields if they did not have any plasma resistances? Possibly - but the easy to get, non-STF (and free of grinding) sets would be directly more competitive against them.
That's not generally desired when trying to incentivize content, especially something intended for as much repetition as the STFs were designed for.
Even the fleet gear was made as an alternative and at least one dev, and I apologize for not having a quote handy, stated the goal was not to make them compete with STF gear.
We can see what happens when the newer gear designed does not compete with something it was meant to compete (or supersede) with by simply looking at the bonuses the STF sets grant in comparison to the Borg Heal Procs.
Few people ever recommend them, or use them. (partly because the Borg procs are good, and partly because the set bonuses outside of Tet Glider are trivial or not especially powerful - the third tier powers being some of the worst offenders).
Without resistances the KHG and Omega shields in particular would only have been considered "must haves" by min/maxers. MACO I think we can make a case that its impact is visible enough even a casual player can spot its useful even if they don't immediately understand how.
Please understand, I would love to see a solution for Plasma to be a viable PvP weapon and my points above are mostly playing devil's advocate as I do not believe it's as easy as some people make it out to be to just "remove X" from a power, item, etc. simply because it makes sense in one portion of the game environment but not necessarily for another.
LOl as much as I think Softie is a noob who the hell are you to tell people to stay out of productive conversation. Oh that's right you are in the arrogant I can do anything I want pandas. My bad.
How about we look at it from a different angle. Surviving STF's isn't that hard, correct? The biggest problem with pugs in an stf is not survival, it's dps production. Why not give a bonus to any of the borg pc's or a combination of the pcs together to boost the [borg] proc on the weapons and drop the plasma resist altogether? This benefits both the pvp crowd, and the stf crowd. This gives there [borg] weapon sets they're proud of grinding for more bite and creates a nice synergy between their weapons and their gear working together as a "set".
Heck give each pc of a set a 20% bonus to [borg] procs so you could have a total of 60% increase to [borg] procs. Going from 1000 to 1600 damage isnt going to throw it off too much
E1 knows its the borg torps that are killers, not their energy weapons. Taking the resist away really isn't going to make a big difference, but increasing borg procs by this much would be a huge benefit to the pve crowd
How about we look at it from a different angle. Surviving STF's isn't that hard, correct? The biggest problem with pugs in an stf is not survival, it's dps production. Why not give a bonus to any of the borg pc's or a combination of the pcs together to boost the [borg] proc on the weapons and drop the plasma resist altogether? This benefits both the pvp crowd, and the stf crowd. This gives there [borg] weapon sets they're proud of grinding for more bite and creates a nice synergy between their weapons and their gear working together as a "set".
Heck give each pc of a set a 20% bonus to [borg] procs so you could have a total of 60% increase to [borg] procs. Going from 1000 to 1600 damage isnt going to throw it off too much
E1 knows its the borg torps that are killers, not their energy weapons. Taking the resist away really isn't going to make a big difference, but increasing borg procs by this much would be a huge benefit to the pve crowd
Did you see this post over in the Tribble section?
Isnt this thread about taking the plasma resist away from shields though?
Was just on what you had said about the issue being DPS rather than survivability - with the proposed changes, they're tackling survivability and DPS.
With the inclusion of the Borg Plasma Torp in that 3-set - does that mean they're going to be looking more closely at the Plasma Resist on the shield...?
Was just on what you had said about the issue being DPS rather than survivability - with the proposed changes, they're tackling survivability and DPS.
With the inclusion of the Borg Plasma Torp in that 3-set - does that mean they're going to be looking more closely as the Plasma Resist on the shield...?
That sort of thing.
Ahh...gotcha. I get the feeling that this isn't high on their priority list, but who knows. Bort has been surprising the hell out of me lately. I'm trying to think outside the box in a way that benefits e1 including devs job of making it so
LOl as much as I think Softie is a noob who the hell are you to tell people to stay out of productive conversation. Oh that's right you are in the arrogant I can do anything I want pandas. My bad.
Well put.
I don't know Softie or naz or bloop, doop, derp, nor herp. I just saw someone ordering someone else not to post in an open forum when all the offending person did was attempt to provide a commonly accepted answer to the question at hand. An answer that, may I remind, J-Man himself confirmed.
This Softie fellow may indeed have offended community members in other forums threads, but no such offensive language was present in any of his comments on this thread. The only thing many of us saw was several unwarranted and arrogant sounding posts commanding this guy to stop posting in the thread.
Yes this is the internet, but civility in an open discussion is still a possibility that one should at least make an attempt to strive for.
Comments
I can see all that. I could however apply a debuff to any Borg in a large AoE range, right?
So, option C it is?
Or is it a hint of things to come?
You have correctly identified all of the available shields, but you're still not talking about the same thing.
Fixed that for you.
CommanderDonatra@Capt.Sisko: ahhh is it supposed to do that?
Norvo Tigan@dontdrunkimshoot: hell ya, maybe
this is infant my position. i have in detail explained a solution to the specific problem of the plasma resist, the fact that the shields are must have are not really a problem. i don't really like that ether, but since everyone has them its a non issue.
ya seriously. any shield but the 4 that resist plasma are so terrible they are not even considerable for use. what they do is irreverent.
I think we can understand the reasoning for sure. It wasn't something you foresaw needing... and going back to recode weapon types, or add code likely to be buggy. I can understand completely.
Just thought I would throw my vote behind Option C there.... I know that one is likely the most work. I would think though that if your systems team was to implement this capability it would be a feature in the code you could use for future items... and I dare say I could see how that would come in very handy in other titles that share the Cryptic MMO engine.
Just like the borg weapons that have a chance to proc extra dmg against the borg... you could intro duce say shields that only proc there healing effect when under fire from borg... or really any other enemy you wish.... In other titles you could add defensive shields/armour or any other item really that would only have specific procs when they face say Boss level NPCs.... In other MMOS there is gear that works exactly in that manner, and I would assume on the system side they use some type of hook that would be very much the same.
I think it would be a great feature to add to the engine. I can see all sorts of intelligent uses for such a incoming dmg tag feature. It is likely worth the time your systems team would need to invest to add it to your engine for future use.
Cmdr @Intricated
Medical Division, Alpha Squad
12th Fleet
That would actually make a lot of sense. What was that Enterprise episode...the doc, doses himself with some kind of radiation that kills the nanites. So make the shield have a 100% chance to proc an AoE (or make it debuff the attacker) debuff called "Delta(orwhatever) radiation burst" that debuffs damage for Borg.
There, we fixed the problem. What's next?
I disagree.
They're "must have" shields outside of the plasma resists for min/maxers (myself included).
We can't say the same for the general playerbase.
Would people still desire these shields if they did not have any plasma resistances? Possibly - but the easy to get, non-STF (and free of grinding) sets would be directly more competitive against them.
That's not generally desired when trying to incentivize content, especially something intended for as much repetition as the STFs were designed for.
Even the fleet gear was made as an alternative and at least one dev, and I apologize for not having a quote handy, stated the goal was not to make them compete with STF gear.
We can see what happens when the newer gear designed does not compete with something it was meant to compete (or supersede) with by simply looking at the bonuses the STF sets grant in comparison to the Borg Heal Procs.
Few people ever recommend them, or use them. (partly because the Borg procs are good, and partly because the set bonuses outside of Tet Glider are trivial or not especially powerful - the third tier powers being some of the worst offenders).
Without resistances the KHG and Omega shields in particular would only have been considered "must haves" by min/maxers. MACO I think we can make a case that its impact is visible enough even a casual player can spot its useful even if they don't immediately understand how.
Please understand, I would love to see a solution for Plasma to be a viable PvP weapon and my points above are mostly playing devil's advocate as I do not believe it's as easy as some people make it out to be to just "remove X" from a power, item, etc. simply because it makes sense in one portion of the game environment but not necessarily for another.
LOl as much as I think Softie is a noob who the hell are you to tell people to stay out of productive conversation. Oh that's right you are in the arrogant I can do anything I want pandas. My bad.
Does that mean there might be hope?
Or does that just further show where PvP sits in things?
Heck give each pc of a set a 20% bonus to [borg] procs so you could have a total of 60% increase to [borg] procs. Going from 1000 to 1600 damage isnt going to throw it off too much
E1 knows its the borg torps that are killers, not their energy weapons. Taking the resist away really isn't going to make a big difference, but increasing borg procs by this much would be a huge benefit to the pve crowd
Did you see this post over in the Tribble section?
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=417101
The second post in the thread linking to the changes...?
There's another thread over there talking about that 1% wep pwr proc and trying to make it more useful.
Isnt this thread about taking the plasma resist away from shields though?
Was just on what you had said about the issue being DPS rather than survivability - with the proposed changes, they're tackling survivability and DPS.
With the inclusion of the Borg Plasma Torp in that 3-set - does that mean they're going to be looking more closely at the Plasma Resist on the shield...?
That sort of thing.
edit: pesky typo
Ahh...gotcha. I get the feeling that this isn't high on their priority list, but who knows. Bort has been surprising the hell out of me lately. I'm trying to think outside the box in a way that benefits e1 including devs job of making it so
Well put.
I don't know Softie or naz or bloop, doop, derp, nor herp. I just saw someone ordering someone else not to post in an open forum when all the offending person did was attempt to provide a commonly accepted answer to the question at hand. An answer that, may I remind, J-Man himself confirmed.
This Softie fellow may indeed have offended community members in other forums threads, but no such offensive language was present in any of his comments on this thread. The only thing many of us saw was several unwarranted and arrogant sounding posts commanding this guy to stop posting in the thread.
Yes this is the internet, but civility in an open discussion is still a possibility that one should at least make an attempt to strive for.