Irrelevant, and offtopic in this thread. Just acknowledge that the available boff skills clearly identify the sci ship as the "healer" vessel, and not the cruiser.
.
A cruiser can run ALL the Eng AND sci heals.
A sciship can NOT
except: a few sci-cruiser-ships can run all the eng heals (in low versions)
but:
- The sciship can only run eng heals in low version, and the are weaksauce compared to high versions
- The eng ships can run low level versions of sci heals, but the difference between high and low level sci heals is not so big.
- The sciship running eng heals looses his self-buffs/tanking ability, or has to use the heals on himself.
To sum it up:
Having a ton of eng stations lets you heal and tank.
That said, I've seen good engineers healing well in sciships, but they could have been even better in a cruiser.
So there are 3 ally hull heals and 3 ally shield heals. The Eng can buff hull heals (and has 2 of the 3 hull heals) - the Sci can buff shield heals (and has 2 of the 3 shield heals)... 2 of each heal also provides DR. 1 hull heal is also a cleanse while 2 of the shield heals are also cleanses.
Etc, etc, etc, etc...
It's somewhat easy to make the argument that the Cruiser should be the healboat, because of needing the Cmdr Eng for ES3. You can't get that on a Fed Sci Vessel. KDF Sci Vessels are so...er...yeah. You can get it on a BoP or one of the Support Cruisers (as well as Battle Cruisers, etc). Of course, you could pick up a Recluse - the pseudo Sci/Carrier for either side.
From there, it gets into the discussion over whether it should be the Eng or the Sci flying the ship. As well as the discussions about how much DR would help out from other abilities (Tac, etc, etc - which the Recluse is missing).
Some would say that it should be the Eng, because even though much of the healing is going to be shield - the Eng has somewhat better survivability, and you can have your Sci Support Guy drop out Sci Fleet to buff the Eng's shield healing...etc, etc, etc.
Sci's Cmdr III's provide no heals/damage resistance - however, the abilities can be used to reduce incoming damage in their own way... I mean, just look at them, eh?
In the end, my personal opinion is that it comes down to whether you're flying solo or flying in a team. In a team, you're going to have more options. You may find the loss of ES3 easily covered and find more synergy with something else - multiple methods to reduce incoming damage and thus potentially requiring less healing.
All of that goes off on various discussions - which you may or may not feel appropriate to the original post...
this hasnt changed. its still what each captain is best at. no matter how hard you try to do damage in you tac carrier with torpedos.[/QUOTE]
I am not in a carrier but I fly a tact/wells sci ship and outdmg most 5 tact console escorts with only 1 beam array up front. I should also add my number power level preset is high engine power. Vet players and noobs doesn't matter. And even after all that find room for support healing and even running from all out ganks to avoid death.
What sophie wants to do is DPS and still have people shoot at him... frankly if a cruiser was capable of doing enough DPS, such that people would want to shoot at him over the squishy targets... it would destroy the game... why would anyone fly anything else at that point? They wouldn't right... why fly a squishy ship if you could be the tank and still dish out the type of dps people couldn't ignore.
If I recall such cruiser did exist in season 3 when faw got it's first buff. It was a fawking mess till the start of season 4.
i was just going over in my head the different hull heals and shield heals that are bridge officer releated.
shields-
emergency power to shields
extend shields
transfer shields
science team
rotate shield polarity.
hull-
aux to sif
hazzard emitters
engineering team.
notice these only bridge officer powers that can be used on a fellow team mate and actually have a heal assosiated with them, not just a redistribution of heals (tac team) or a resist only (polarize hull, aux to dampiners)
i just find it odd that engineers are "healers" yet clearly it shows that science has the most heals assosiated with it. hmm....
weird eh?
nearly twice as many shield heals as hull heals.
You left out the hull resists vs shields resists. Off the top of my head,
Basic Hull Resists:
Hazzard Doffs
PH
Aux2Damp (kinetic)
BFI (kinetic)
HE
APD
Aux2Sif
Eng Consoles (TRIBBLE non P2W)
Threat Gen Skill
2x Eng hull resist skills (1 for eng types, 1 for kinetic irrc)
Basic Shield Resists:
Shield Power level (may have changed, can't remeber)
TSS
ES
APD (listed, but disputed)
EPTS
Shields Batt w/Purple Maint Doff
As it is shields are the best at resists and repairs in terms of maxing both even w/limited shield resist options. The shield resists cap seems easier to obtain w/the steeper hull resist deminishing returns rate.
To me it would be more interesting to keep the greater number of shield repairs and lower shield resists. As well as keeping the number of hull repairs down, while keeping the number of hull resists high and lowering the magnitude of hull repairs or make all hull repairs moderate to long HoTs as a general concept.
Note: I'm leaving out Captain powers and P2W stuff and just listing options open to all.
[Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
If your cruiser is specced properly you will come in second as far as damage goes (sometimes even first depending on the nature of the teams)... again, I'm a little alien to the cruisers you're all talking about? They don't seem to be the same ones I know from my STO.
It is more the escorts I am talking about You know, those "squishy ships" whose shields will not even be scratched by BO3 that was fired at 125 weapons power.
Next time check the buffs that are up on your target... if they have high shield reists your BOL is going to do nothing.
Honestly I have to agree with Shimmerless... my cruisers when setup to do it beat people down pretty hard... perhaps your not doing something right.
Really if you want to go dps cruiser they will come in second in dps only to escorts... I don't see anything at all broken there. (and honestly when they are rigged for it... and granted they loose all secondary functioning at that point... they will beat escorts on scoreboards if thats what you care about as well... my Galor will end matches with higher scoreboard numbers then my escorts. Still my escort is a better killer)
Other escorts don't down escorts in one pass either unless they catch someone flat footed.
The mechanics of the game are fine Soph... cruisers are pretty much exactly where they should be...
I will say that BFI and Tac team... both need a reduction and that will make escorts a bit more squishy, in comparison to cruisers and sci ships... not that they don't exploit the heck out of those 2 broken mechanics as well.
May I point you at the mature person above about people who derail threads?
Anyway, the whole tangent developed from the original observation that there are more (or more useful) sci heals than eng heals, boff-wise. Following the logic that an engineer captain can do little more for his team but keep his ship alive and functioning with high energy, wouldn't it be optimal to have healers in PvP that are engineer captains, but use sci ships?
Engies in Sci ships don't perform the same role, admittedly this has been blurred by the release of silly do-everything ships like the Recluse.
In general, there are two types of people in the game.
1. Those whose playstyle don't fit within the design of the game and spend their time complaining and indulge in deluges of indignation and righteousness, which are really just exercises of self-justification. Because they don't fit, the game world/design must change to suit them.
2. Those who look at the system in game, examine and experiment with how it works, and then work within the system to obtain optimal results.
THose in category 1 like to talk about how the order of things is out of whack and all these things need to be changed and re-evaluated in order for the game to fit their desire. They'll often start topics upon topics questioning the validity of known game mechanics and want to "discuss" everything, because they want to change everything. They tend to make issues out of non-issues (Like Creationists).
Those in category 2, will make posts about how to optimize builds or explain mechanics to new readers (ie. like Scientists). When new changes are introduced in the game, they generally take into consideration how these changes interact with other systems already in the game and help identify unintended anomalies that can arise in complex game systems. They of course are not without bias, but compared to those in category 1, their observations and inferences are more accurate and significant.
I'm pretty sure it's easy to see who is who in this game.
Join Date: Sep 2009
[23:35] Horta deals 1738411 (1538303) Toxic Damage to Centurion Engineer with Corrosive Acid.
In general, there are two types of people in the game.
1. Those whose playstyle don't fit within the design of the game and spend their time complaining and indulge in deluges of indignation and righteousness, which are really just exercises of self-justification. Because they don't fit, the game world/design must change to suit them.
2. Those who look at the system in game, examine and experiment with how it works, and then work within the system to obtain optimal results.
THose in category 1 like to talk about how the order of things is out of whack and all these things need to be changed and re-evaluated in order for the game to fit their desire. They'll often start topics upon topics questioning the validity of known game mechanics and want to "discuss" everything, because they want to change everything. They tend to make issues out of non-issues (Like Creationists).
Those in category 2, will make posts about how to optimize builds or explain mechanics to new readers (ie. like Scientists). When new changes are introduced in the game, they generally take into consideration how these changes interact with other systems already in the game and help identify unintended anomalies that can arise in complex game systems. They of course are not without bias, but compared to those in category 1, their observations and inferences are more accurate and significant.
I'm pretty sure it's easy to see who is who in this game.
1. Those whose playstyle don't fit within the design of the game and spend their time complaining and indulge in deluges of indignation and righteousness, which are really just exercises of self-justification. Because they don't fit, the game world/design must change to suit them.
2. Those who look at the system in game, examine and experiment with how it works, and then work within the system to obtain optimal results.
The sad truth is almost everyone fits into the first category, even us PvPers. It's just a matter of degree.
Before the Recluse (or the Litter Box for that matter), it was difficult to take strong Eng heals on a science ship because of a lack of high-level Eng slots. The only way to get around this was to take lower levels of ES (still powerful) and fill them out with TSS, ships like the Nebula were good for this.
The thing is that an Eng in a science ship can afford to be more offensive (even if jerks refuse to take advantage of it) than a pure Sci thanks to their self-heals. In an ideal world where science heals didn't have ridonkulous scaling, people wouldn't be taking Com. and Lt. Com. heals for their support ships, but this is the world we live in, so.
I don't really see how what you wrote has any impact on the Engineer being the captain of the science ship, healer-wise? Boff slots are boff slots.
I believe where he's going is since an Eng captain has more ways to focus on self repair via Captain abilities this opens up Boff slots to use on either team repairs and or debuffs/cc which would otherwise be assign for self repair if another profession were captain of the sci ship.
An analogy would be a KDF vs Fed cruiser of like layouts being a better repair ship for Feds since the BoPs are so fragile the repair abilities are less effective not to mention it doesn't fit the "hit and run" raider playstyle design.
[Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
Well, yes, that was pretty much why I suggested the Eng captain/sci ship combination. But sci boff slots are even more suited for healing than eng slots, so...
I mean, okay, the main difference being that the cruiser can spend an Commander slot on healing with ES3 or A2S3, but then again, having two LtCom, 2 Lt and up to 3 ens slots for healing is really nice... I mean, it is essentially... on any ship with a Com and Lt Com of their respective category...
Cruiser: 2 ET, 2 ES, Aux2SIF: six slots out of 7, leaving only 1 for self-protection (EPTS)
Science ship: 2 TSS, 2 ST, 2 HE: six slots out of 7, but 3 are left for self-protection: 2xEpts, RSP, or you could even do a ship that has a total of 8 heals, with only 1 for self-protection - relying on RSF and MW for self-protection.
I'd say if you want to command a healship in space combat, the sci ship wins by a margin? Even without looking at, for example, the Varanus with its neat hull heal console...
For repairs:
ES is >> than TSS for shield resists.
Aux2Sif >> than HE b/c it has 15 second cooldown vs 45 (30 shared). This means you can spread it around where it's needed and buff up to 3 ships resists in the time HE buffs 1.
You've left out Doff potential:
Even if for w/e reason you aren't using Aux2Batt, you should use Maint Doffs instead of 2 ETs.
Shield Distro Doffs are semi reliable.
Borg Set: Fairly reliable
Eng Captain abilities (his main point) offers less need for self repair boffs.
As far as ships you should try and compare like quality vs like quality, ie compare Lotto Sci ships w/Lotto cruisers not basic C-store cruisers. Unfortunately, that's just the way the power creep has become.
[Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
Comments
A cruiser can run ALL the Eng AND sci heals.
A sciship can NOT
except: a few sci-cruiser-ships can run all the eng heals (in low versions)
but:
- The sciship can only run eng heals in low version, and the are weaksauce compared to high versions
- The eng ships can run low level versions of sci heals, but the difference between high and low level sci heals is not so big.
- The sciship running eng heals looses his self-buffs/tanking ability, or has to use the heals on himself.
To sum it up:
Having a ton of eng stations lets you heal and tank.
That said, I've seen good engineers healing well in sciships, but they could have been even better in a cruiser.
-_-
This bit from your first post though...
...and tada - we got what we got.
But still:
Eng
- self shield heal
- self/ally hull heal
- self/ally hull heal
- ally shield heal
- self shield heal
Sci
- self/ally hull heal
- self/ally shield heal
- self/ally shield heal
So there are 3 ally hull heals and 3 ally shield heals. The Eng can buff hull heals (and has 2 of the 3 hull heals) - the Sci can buff shield heals (and has 2 of the 3 shield heals)... 2 of each heal also provides DR. 1 hull heal is also a cleanse while 2 of the shield heals are also cleanses.
Etc, etc, etc, etc...
It's somewhat easy to make the argument that the Cruiser should be the healboat, because of needing the Cmdr Eng for ES3. You can't get that on a Fed Sci Vessel. KDF Sci Vessels are so...er...yeah. You can get it on a BoP or one of the Support Cruisers (as well as Battle Cruisers, etc). Of course, you could pick up a Recluse - the pseudo Sci/Carrier for either side.
From there, it gets into the discussion over whether it should be the Eng or the Sci flying the ship. As well as the discussions about how much DR would help out from other abilities (Tac, etc, etc - which the Recluse is missing).
Some would say that it should be the Eng, because even though much of the healing is going to be shield - the Eng has somewhat better survivability, and you can have your Sci Support Guy drop out Sci Fleet to buff the Eng's shield healing...etc, etc, etc.
Sci's Cmdr III's provide no heals/damage resistance - however, the abilities can be used to reduce incoming damage in their own way... I mean, just look at them, eh?
In the end, my personal opinion is that it comes down to whether you're flying solo or flying in a team. In a team, you're going to have more options. You may find the loss of ES3 easily covered and find more synergy with something else - multiple methods to reduce incoming damage and thus potentially requiring less healing.
All of that goes off on various discussions - which you may or may not feel appropriate to the original post...
I am not in a carrier but I fly a tact/wells sci ship and outdmg most 5 tact console escorts with only 1 beam array up front. I should also add my number power level preset is high engine power. Vet players and noobs doesn't matter. And even after all that find room for support healing and even running from all out ganks to avoid death.
If I recall such cruiser did exist in season 3 when faw got it's first buff. It was a fawking mess till the start of season 4.
You left out the hull resists vs shields resists. Off the top of my head,
Basic Hull Resists:
Hazzard Doffs
PH
Aux2Damp (kinetic)
BFI (kinetic)
HE
APD
Aux2Sif
Eng Consoles (TRIBBLE non P2W)
Threat Gen Skill
2x Eng hull resist skills (1 for eng types, 1 for kinetic irrc)
Basic Shield Resists:
Shield Power level (may have changed, can't remeber)
TSS
ES
APD (listed, but disputed)
EPTS
Shields Batt w/Purple Maint Doff
As it is shields are the best at resists and repairs in terms of maxing both even w/limited shield resist options. The shield resists cap seems easier to obtain w/the steeper hull resist deminishing returns rate.
To me it would be more interesting to keep the greater number of shield repairs and lower shield resists. As well as keeping the number of hull repairs down, while keeping the number of hull resists high and lowering the magnitude of hull repairs or make all hull repairs moderate to long HoTs as a general concept.
Note: I'm leaving out Captain powers and P2W stuff and just listing options open to all.
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
I still get nightmares of my poor BoP getting melted right after decloak by a team of 5 FAWkers back when it was really good.
Ah well, at least I blew up a good amount of those guys too. :P
vids and guides and stuff
[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
Next time check the buffs that are up on your target... if they have high shield reists your BOL is going to do nothing.
Honestly I have to agree with Shimmerless... my cruisers when setup to do it beat people down pretty hard... perhaps your not doing something right.
Really if you want to go dps cruiser they will come in second in dps only to escorts... I don't see anything at all broken there. (and honestly when they are rigged for it... and granted they loose all secondary functioning at that point... they will beat escorts on scoreboards if thats what you care about as well... my Galor will end matches with higher scoreboard numbers then my escorts. Still my escort is a better killer)
Other escorts don't down escorts in one pass either unless they catch someone flat footed.
The mechanics of the game are fine Soph... cruisers are pretty much exactly where they should be...
I will say that BFI and Tac team... both need a reduction and that will make escorts a bit more squishy, in comparison to cruisers and sci ships... not that they don't exploit the heck out of those 2 broken mechanics as well.
There's only one person derailing this thread and his name starts with soph.
Engies in Sci ships don't perform the same role, admittedly this has been blurred by the release of silly do-everything ships like the Recluse.
vids and guides and stuff
[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
Husanakx is replying to him. Don;t feed the trolls
1. Those whose playstyle don't fit within the design of the game and spend their time complaining and indulge in deluges of indignation and righteousness, which are really just exercises of self-justification. Because they don't fit, the game world/design must change to suit them.
2. Those who look at the system in game, examine and experiment with how it works, and then work within the system to obtain optimal results.
THose in category 1 like to talk about how the order of things is out of whack and all these things need to be changed and re-evaluated in order for the game to fit their desire. They'll often start topics upon topics questioning the validity of known game mechanics and want to "discuss" everything, because they want to change everything. They tend to make issues out of non-issues (Like Creationists).
Those in category 2, will make posts about how to optimize builds or explain mechanics to new readers (ie. like Scientists). When new changes are introduced in the game, they generally take into consideration how these changes interact with other systems already in the game and help identify unintended anomalies that can arise in complex game systems. They of course are not without bias, but compared to those in category 1, their observations and inferences are more accurate and significant.
I'm pretty sure it's easy to see who is who in this game.
[23:35] Horta deals 1738411 (1538303) Toxic Damage to Centurion Engineer with Corrosive Acid.
Pretty much...
Nicely put.
The sad truth is almost everyone fits into the first category, even us PvPers. It's just a matter of degree.
Before the Recluse (or the Litter Box for that matter), it was difficult to take strong Eng heals on a science ship because of a lack of high-level Eng slots. The only way to get around this was to take lower levels of ES (still powerful) and fill them out with TSS, ships like the Nebula were good for this.
The thing is that an Eng in a science ship can afford to be more offensive (even if jerks refuse to take advantage of it) than a pure Sci thanks to their self-heals. In an ideal world where science heals didn't have ridonkulous scaling, people wouldn't be taking Com. and Lt. Com. heals for their support ships, but this is the world we live in, so.
vids and guides and stuff
[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
I believe where he's going is since an Eng captain has more ways to focus on self repair via Captain abilities this opens up Boff slots to use on either team repairs and or debuffs/cc which would otherwise be assign for self repair if another profession were captain of the sci ship.
An analogy would be a KDF vs Fed cruiser of like layouts being a better repair ship for Feds since the BoPs are so fragile the repair abilities are less effective not to mention it doesn't fit the "hit and run" raider playstyle design.
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
What p2wsucks said, and also the two play quite drastically different due to the things Eng and Sci Fleet buff.
vids and guides and stuff
[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
For repairs:
ES is >> than TSS for shield resists.
Aux2Sif >> than HE b/c it has 15 second cooldown vs 45 (30 shared). This means you can spread it around where it's needed and buff up to 3 ships resists in the time HE buffs 1.
You've left out Doff potential:
Even if for w/e reason you aren't using Aux2Batt, you should use Maint Doffs instead of 2 ETs.
Shield Distro Doffs are semi reliable.
Borg Set: Fairly reliable
Eng Captain abilities (his main point) offers less need for self repair boffs.
As far as ships you should try and compare like quality vs like quality, ie compare Lotto Sci ships w/Lotto cruisers not basic C-store cruisers. Unfortunately, that's just the way the power creep has become.
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter