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hull heals vrs shield heals

matteo716maikaimatteo716maikai Member Posts: 823
edited October 2012 in PvP Gameplay
i was just going over in my head the different hull heals and shield heals that are bridge officer releated.

shields-
emergency power to shields
extend shields
transfer shields
science team
rotate shield polarity.

hull-
aux to sif
hazzard emitters
engineering team.

notice these only bridge officer powers that can be used on a fellow team mate and actually have a heal assosiated with them, not just a redistribution of heals (tac team) or a resist only (polarize hull, aux to dampiners)

i just find it odd that engineers are "healers" yet clearly it shows that science has the most heals assosiated with it. hmm....

weird eh?
nearly twice as many shield heals as hull heals.
Post edited by matteo716maikai on
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Comments

  • havamhavam Member Posts: 1,735 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Don;t forget

    Miracle Worker (both)
    Tac Team (shields)

    and also

    Sci Fleet
    Eng Fleet

    As affecting actual heals
  • husanakxhusanakx Member Posts: 1,674 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Well you did forget polarized hull... not that it does any healing... but I think it counts under hull.

    Yes the game is slanted toward shield heals though no doubt.
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    weird eh?

    Not really. Kind of, but not really.

    Like we were discussing in the other thread:

    1) The Eng is tankier than the Sci. If one were to go with a pseudo-analogy, it's like picturing the difference between the healer in plate and the healer wearing a robe.

    2) The Sci has other stuff it can do. Sure, some of it is what the Eng should be doing - but Sci got it. So if the Eng wants in, the Eng needs something to do, and tada!

    So yeah, it's one of those not really - kind of - but not really things.

    It really came to the forefront in the discussions on the changes to EPtS/ES/et al - it was SHIELD > hull. Well, the Sci is the Shield Healer - the Eng is the Hull Healer. But Eng is the Healer?

    So it's kind of weird, but given the rest - not really.
  • edited October 2012
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  • naz4naz4 Member Posts: 1,373 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    1. Engineers are no healers. They are clearly not meant to be, they only became it in PvP because there is little else they can be useful for there.

    2. In-universe, it makes sense that shields (nebulous damage-taking force field technology) are more easy to bring up again than armor.

    He's never met Era
  • thishorizonthishorizon Member Posts: 1,158
    edited October 2012
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    1. Engineers are no healers. They are clearly not meant to be, they only became it in PvP because there is little else they can be useful for there.

    2. In-universe, it makes sense that shields (nebulous damage-taking force field technology) are more easy to bring up again than armor.

    are you you still try to be helpful?

    lol, pls learn a little more about the game before posting stuff like this. you still come off un informed, and kind of trollish.

    what i'm saying, is....

    engies are healers.

    just like scis are CC

    and tacs are dps.

    this hasnt changed. its still what each captain is best at. no matter how hard you try to do damage in you tac carrier with torpedos.
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    what i'm saying, is....

    engies are healers.

    just like scis are CC

    and tacs are dps.

    Tac:
    APA - DPS
    FoMM - DPS
    TI - DPS
    GDF - DPS
    TFleet - DPS

    Sci:
    SS - Debuff
    SNB - Buff Strip
    SF - Defensive Buff
    PF - DPS/Support Pets
    SFleet - Resist Buff/Shield Repair Buff

    Eng:
    RSF - Self Defensive Buff
    EPSPT - Self Power Buff
    NI - Self Drain Resist
    MW - Self Heal
    EFleet - Resist Buff/Hull Repair Buff

    So er... I guess you got one out of three.
  • hyprodimushyprodimus Member Posts: 196 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Engies are the healers because they have more resists and self heals, hence they can afford to share their other heals.
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    hyprodimus wrote: »
    Engies are the healers because they have more resists and self heals, hence they can afford to share their other heals.

    An Engineer has five abilities.

    Where are they getting all these self-heals from? What other heals do they have to share?
  • thishorizonthishorizon Member Posts: 1,158
    edited October 2012
    lol, you guys kill me.

    tacs are dps, thats a given.

    the reason scis are CC....CROWD CONTROL....is because of all of the abilities you listed, the innate captain powers. lol unless you need a definition of crowd control for video games.

    and engies are healers, for, exactly why the previous poster stated. their innate captain powers make their ship the toughest to kill. therefore thay can afford to stay alive and distribute more heals to the team.

    care to continue this?
  • thishorizonthishorizon Member Posts: 1,158
    edited October 2012
    An Engineer has five abilities.

    Where are they getting all these self-heals from? What other heals do they have to share?

    my engie heal themselves with miracle worker, and RSP.

    everything else goes to the team.

    all ET's, all aux2sif, all tss, all hazzards. any TT if im running it. EXTENDSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!

    if thats not your mindset you are doing it wrong.
  • adamkafeiadamkafei Member Posts: 6,539 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Tac:
    APA - DPS
    FoMM - DPS
    TI - DPS
    GDF - DPS
    TFleet - DPS

    Sci:
    SS - Debuff
    SNB - Buff Strip
    SF - Defensive Buff
    PF - DPS/Support Pets
    SFleet - Resist Buff/Shield Repair Buff

    Eng:
    RSF - Self Defensive Buff
    EPSPT - Self Power Buff
    NI - Self Drain Resist
    MW - Self Heal
    EFleet - Resist Buff/Hull Repair Buff

    So er... I guess you got one out of three.

    Exactly, Tac is DPS, Eng is the counter to tac and sci is the tide turner if we go by career skills
    ZiOfChe.png?1
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    my engie heal themselves with miracle worker, and RSP.

    everything else goes to the team.

    all ET's, all aux2sif, all tss, all hazzards. any TT if im running it. EXTENDSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!

    if thats not your mindset you are doing it wrong.

    RSP is not an Engineer ability. It's an Engineer BOFF ability - Tac, Sci, or Eng can put it on a ship they're flying if the layout allows for it. The same for the rest - they're Eng, Tac, and Sci abilities that anybody can run if the ships allow for it.

    So you've got MW. You've got a self-heal on a longish cooldown.

    Outside of the five "Captain" abilities - you're not looking at a difference. Any changes to the Space skills would reflect those abilities - otherwise (or even ignoring that if you choose); you could build the toon the same way.

    You could build a Tac Healer to fly a Cruiser or Science Vessel. What's different between the Tac and a Sci or Eng doing that? The five abilities is the difference.

    You could gear the ship the same. You could fill out the BOFFs the same. You could even build the Space skills the same. If you don't use any of those five abilities - there's no difference.

    So let's plop them in a Cruiser - since the Cruiser's been labeled the healboat.

    Tac Cruiser Healer:
    Maneuverable, Higher Pressure Damage, Debuff Resistance on Priority Target, Reduced Recharge on Tac Abilities (APD, APO, TT, etc - defensive and offensive), Increased Pressure Damage While Going Down, Team Maneuverability - Damage - Accuracy.

    Sci Cruiser Healer:
    AoE Debuff Damage and Damage Resistance, Buff Stripper, Team Damage Resistance, Pets, Team Shield Resistance - Drain Resist - Shield Healing

    Eng Cruiser Healer:
    Self Shield Regen/Resist Buff, Self/Ally Power Buff, Self Drain Resist, Self Heal, Team Damage Resist - Hull Healing - Power Buff

    One could say the following then...

    The Tac Healer seeks to reduce the damage that needs to be healed by helping the team kill the enemy faster.

    The Sci Healer seeks a middle ground, reducing the damage being done by increasing resistances and decreasing damage capability.

    The Eng Healer probably runs in a PUG where he or she realizes that the rest of the team is going to be off chasing butterflies so they need more tank than either the Tac or the Sci.
  • edited October 2012
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  • thishorizonthishorizon Member Posts: 1,158
    edited October 2012
    okay, thats my time with the peanut crowd for the day.

    you guys have fun out there.
  • husanakxhusanakx Member Posts: 1,674 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Tac:
    APA - DPS
    FoMM - DPS
    TI - DPS
    GDF - DPS
    TFleet - DPS

    Sci:
    SS - Debuff
    SNB - Buff Strip
    SF - Defensive Buff
    PF - DPS/Support Pets
    SFleet - Resist Buff/Shield Repair Buff

    Eng:
    RSF - Self Defensive Buff
    EPSPT - Self Power Buff
    NI - Self Drain Resist
    MW - Self Heal
    EFleet - Resist Buff/Hull Repair Buff

    So er... I guess you got one out of three.

    No he nailed all 3 perfectly...

    You can't heal anyone if your dead... which is why sci and tacs make poor healers. A healer MUST be able to tank... in order to heal others.

    IF you ask pugs why they don't heal people they will say things like I might need that heal myself in 5 seconds.... well thats where the engi self heals come into play... the engi has multiple OH no I need myself buttons.... they allow them to share the wealth of BOFF abilities with teammates....

    Engi = Healer... anyone unwilling to accept that has a ruff road to hoe in pvp.
  • husanakxhusanakx Member Posts: 1,674 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    Yes, right now, there is little other option to optimize a team's performance with an engineer cruiser other than making that engineer cruiser a healer. But that is because the game currently does not achieve what it explicitly wants to achieve.

    It achieves it well... its your interpretation of that goal that is missing the mark.

    Fine Sophie here you go there IS 100% TANKING in PvP.... however you don't Tank in order to do more DPS...

    Engi and ENGI Cruiser to be more precise... is a heal platform. Says so right in the Docs you keep going back to... it says cruisers are hull healing platforms... sci ships are shield healing platforms.

    In order to be able to dish out the massive hull healing that cruisers are capable of dealing they need to be hard targets to take down... or as in every other MMO in the world people just kill the healer first. Engi Cruisers is not easy to kill even if they are spending the majority of there Boff Heals on others.... Sci Cruisers and Tac Cruises ARE easy to kill if you focus them, unless they start burning their Boff skills on themselves... that is why they make terrible healers. You have to pour a heck of a lot more fire power on an engi healer to deter them from there objective... (keeping everyone alive.)

    I'm sorry you don't like the design of the cruiser Buddy... but there is nothing wrong with it. You simply don't play it properly.
  • edited October 2012
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  • husanakxhusanakx Member Posts: 1,674 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    I have no idea why I try at all to reason with you but here goes....

    What is it you are trying to do that leads you to believe Engi is broken ?

    In what way are you not able to be a tank ?

    Is it that players simply choose to ignore you ?

    In order to have people focus on you and make you feel like a tank like you want to... you have to you know do something threatening. Now you are not in an escort so you won't be doing top DPS if your on a team with even one escort... so you won't be tanking that way.

    If you are out there with a sci healer and you are playing your engi properly as a healer... how do you think people are going to focus on.... Heres a hint you should be putting out the larger heal numbers SO... who is the bigger target.

    Its not broken Sophie you simply refuse to use the PvP tanking abilities.... IE Extend Shields... Large Engi Team and Aux to Sif Heals... go out there and start doing those things and see if you in fact have to start tanking in PvP. :) lol
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Tac has options.
    Sci has options.
    Eng has no options.
    That's how Eng is broken.

    It's also how Eng ended up being the Healer - not because they're best at it. It's the only thing they're good for in PvP. They have no options.

    If Eng had options, then people might play some of the other options the other Careers have as well.

    If you know the Eng's going to be the healer, you pretty much know the Tac's going to be the DPS, and that the Sci's going to be support.

    If you don't know the Eng's going to be the healer, you don't know that the Tac's going to be the DPS, nor do you know the Sci's going to be support.
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  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    Irrelevant, and offtopic in this thread. Just acknowledge that the available boff skills clearly identify the sci ship as the "healer" vessel, and not the cruiser.

    That cruisers are set up as healers in PvP is an emergency solution, it is not because the game was intentionally designed that way.

    Honestly, I would not say that any ship can clearly be identified as the "healer" vessel.

    However, I would say that certain types of ships can clearly be identified as being "healer" capable ships.

    When those "healer" capable ships do not provide actual other options in PvP (like they do in PvE) - then they have been labeled the "healer" vessel.

    Say you buy an LCD monitor with a built-in OTA digital tuner. You can use it as a computer monitor or as a TV. Say you buy an LCD monitor with a built-in OTA analog tuner. You can use it as a computer monitor or as a TV as long as you pick up a separate OTA digital tuner.

    One can do either regardless while the other can only do both in certain situations.

    Tada... Science Vessels and Cruisers.

    edit: I should note, mind you - that my Eng Healer flies a Sci. Subtargeting, Sensor Analysis, Shield Modifier, Maneuverability, Aux Bonus... yeah, I'm not sure why folks fly Cruisers outside of wanting to get their Kirk or Picard on.
  • thishorizonthishorizon Member Posts: 1,158
    edited October 2012
    omg husanak.

    its a damn train wreck.
  • shimmerlessshimmerless Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    What is your source for Engineers being supposed to be healers? Right, you don't have any. It is just a conclusion from the way the game is set up right now. In other words, you are talking out of your TRIBBLE. You do that more often than you realize.
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    Irrelevant, and offtopic in this thread. Just acknowledge that the available boff skills clearly identify the sci ship as the "healer" vessel, and not the cruiser.

    That cruisers are set up as healers in PvP is an emergency solution, it is not because the game was intentionally designed that way.

    Which is it? Are Engineers the dreaded not-healers or is it cruisers? You don't seem to be sure which?
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  • husanakxhusanakx Member Posts: 1,674 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Tac has options.
    Sci has options.
    Eng has no options.
    That's how Eng is broken.

    It's also how Eng ended up being the Healer - not because they're best at it. It's the only thing they're good for in PvP. They have no options.

    If Eng had options, then people might play some of the other options the other Careers have as well.

    If you know the Eng's going to be the healer, you pretty much know the Tac's going to be the DPS, and that the Sci's going to be support.

    If you don't know the Eng's going to be the healer, you don't know that the Tac's going to be the DPS, nor do you know the Sci's going to be support.

    Let me improve pvp for you 1000%....

    Tacs go in escorts... anything else is stupid... They have no other options.

    Sci goes in a sci ships.... anything else is stupid... They have no other options.

    There ya go play with that in mind and you just got 1000% better in pvp.

    Sorry that comes across as really harsh... but really there are no other viable options.

    Tac cruisers suck... Tac sci suck.... Sci scorts havn't been really viable in a year... sci cruisers ya put your sci in a science ship and do your job.

    I hate to sound so conformist... but its true Captain types do much much better in the proper ship class... its just the way it is.
  • husanakxhusanakx Member Posts: 1,674 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    Irrelevant, and offtopic in this thread. Just acknowledge that the available boff skills clearly identify the sci ship as the "healer" vessel, and not the cruiser.

    That cruisers are set up as healers in PvP is an emergency solution, it is not because the game was intentionally designed that way.

    Extend Shields..
    Aux to Sif
    Engi Team

    VS

    Hazards
    Transfer Shield Strength
    Sci team

    One has 2 hull heals and one shield
    One has 2 shield heals and one hull

    Whats your point?

    I never said sci ships didn't have a healing role... I said cruisers are the main healers... its the way the game has been for 3 years... and it won't change cause Sophie wants to dps.
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    husanakx wrote: »
    Let me improve pvp for you 1000%....

    /snip

    Well, I read the first part. Then I read the rest. I'm still waiting on the first part...
  • husanakxhusanakx Member Posts: 1,674 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Well, I read the first part. Then I read the rest. I'm still waiting on the first part...

    Its simple...

    Play your role as its designed.

    To many people trying to tank in cruisers in pvp... and DPS in there tac cruisers... and being ignored in there engi scorts.

    Playing around with options can be fun... but you can't really get upset if a sub optimal build turns out to be sub optimal. Play your Captain type in the right ship in a manner that plays to the combinations strength and you will do 10x better.

    Would you see a WW 2 Escort fighter... slow down to half throttle and dare the other guys to blast him ?

    Would you see a WW 2 Bomber trying to dog fight ?

    The ships and the Captains have roles they are designed to perform... frankly if you are not playing your role in a PvP match.. you are letting your team down.
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    husanakx wrote: »
    I never said sci ships didn't have a healing role... I said cruisers are the main healers... its the way the game has been for 3 years... and it won't change cause Sophie wants to dps.

    Soph didn't create this thread. Soph didn't bring this point up. Besides, Soph doesn't want to DPS - Soph wants to tank...

    Is the majority of healing Hull or Shield in a match? That's what was brought up.

    Which class of ship is the primary Shield healer and which is the Hull healer? That's what was brought up.

    It's kind of that simple...
  • shimmerlessshimmerless Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    I wouldn't say Tac/Sci is necessarily bad... Sci/Tac suffers mostly because subnuke doesn't clear all the newer TRIBBLE like BFI, meaning you're ill-equipped to put out enough hurt.
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