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fleet ship shield mods, more convoluted then i thought
dontdrunkimshoot
Member Posts: 0 Arc User
there are 2 types of fleet ships, those that are based off ships that were at tier 5 when the fleet system was introduced, and those that are not. the first type, like the fleet patrol, fleet vorcha and the like have higher then standard shield mods. when checked, no mater what the shield you check it with the shield mod is correct.
the other type of ships, the originally tier 2 and 3 ships, well they are tricky. they come with a lower then normal shield mod, but they also have a hidden bonus shield mod as well, so when you attempt to calculate the actual shield mod, its different for every shield. thats because this hidden bonus is on a curve, and the curve favors low capacity shields.
so, figuring out exactly what this hidden bonus is would be next to impossible on our end. here are some actual findings in numbers. these were done on ships with no capacity boosting consoles and 9 to the shield hitpoint skill tree skill. first i'll mention my fleet ktinga and fleet heavy cruiser have the exact same mod and exact same curved bonus mod, the omega and borg shields both had the same per faceing numbers
base line vorcha R with 1.0 shield mod
mkXII KHG tool tip: 8431.5
mkXII KHG per faceing: 10961
mkXI omega tool tip: 6259
mkXI omega per faceing: 8137
borg tool tip: 5250
borg per faceing: 6825
fleet vorcha with 1.1 shield mod
mkXII KHG tool tip: 9724.6
mkXII KHG per faceing: 12057- 1.09999 mod
mkXI omega tool tip: 6885.4
mkXI omega per faceing: 8951- 1.10004 mod
borg tool tip: 5775
borg per faceing: 7507- 1.09993 mod
(there is a decimal point not displayed in the UI, effecting the math)
it showing a ~1.1 shield mod across the board tells me that its not the skill tree skill points effecting things on the tier 2&3 fleet ships. now here is were it gets real interesting
fleet ktinga with a listed .94 shield mod
mkXII KHG tool tip: 8004.2
mkXII KHG per faceing: 11780- 1.07472 mod
mkXI omega tool tip: 5920.2
mkXI omega per faceing: 9071- 1.11475 mod, a bit more then fleet vorcha
borg tool tip: 4950
borg per faceing: 7810- 1.14432 mod, a bit more then fleet vorcha
decided to give the omega shield a try, the gap between the capacity on the vorcha is 3106, but on the ktinga its only 2709, a 397 capacity difference. time to run infected elite again :rolleyes:
gravametic anchor is awesome by the way, never looked into it much but in addition to making you unable to turn for 10 seconds, it lowers defense score by 50! so yes, when you see me dump plasma wile we fly strait at each other, you will in fact be flying directly into it
for more data, here's my non fleet somraw retrofit, listed 0.65 shield mod
mkXII KHG tool tip: 5582
mkXII KHG per faceing: 8820- .80467 mod
mkXI omega tool tip: 4119
mkXI omega per faceing: 6917- .85007 mod
borg tool tip: 3437
borg per faceing: 6037- .88366 mod
1903 hitpoint difference between KHG and omega here
and here's how the shields are on a a normal qin with an .83 mod across the board to compare to the somraw
mkXII KHG tool tip: 7026
mkXII KHG per faceing: 9134- .83332 mod
mkXI omega tool tip: 5216
mkXI omega per faceing: 5687- .83335 mod
borg tool tip: 4375
borg per faceing: 5687- .83326 mod
(math effected by undisplayed decimal point again)
as you can see, tier 2 and 3 fleet ships definitely favor lower capacity shields, even surpassing their superior tier 5 fleet ship bretheran, if my fleet vorcha is any baseline.
just thought i would post about this, my testing has definitely effected my shield choice, at least on the kdf side. i think this is a good indication that the fleet bops will have a much nicer total shield capacity then it has listed at the very least, and all those somraws, sabers, novas, etc... are more then viable ships for use. i would DEFINITELY chose a fleet saber over a fleet patrol now, provided its maco hitpoints are higher. the 'apparent' shield mod on my mkXI maco fleet heavy cruiser is 1.10595, when .94 is its listed.
this is why this information is important, and why i choose to provide it, with it who would opt for a fleet patrol over a fleet saber?
the other type of ships, the originally tier 2 and 3 ships, well they are tricky. they come with a lower then normal shield mod, but they also have a hidden bonus shield mod as well, so when you attempt to calculate the actual shield mod, its different for every shield. thats because this hidden bonus is on a curve, and the curve favors low capacity shields.
so, figuring out exactly what this hidden bonus is would be next to impossible on our end. here are some actual findings in numbers. these were done on ships with no capacity boosting consoles and 9 to the shield hitpoint skill tree skill. first i'll mention my fleet ktinga and fleet heavy cruiser have the exact same mod and exact same curved bonus mod, the omega and borg shields both had the same per faceing numbers
base line vorcha R with 1.0 shield mod
mkXII KHG tool tip: 8431.5
mkXII KHG per faceing: 10961
mkXI omega tool tip: 6259
mkXI omega per faceing: 8137
borg tool tip: 5250
borg per faceing: 6825
fleet vorcha with 1.1 shield mod
mkXII KHG tool tip: 9724.6
mkXII KHG per faceing: 12057- 1.09999 mod
mkXI omega tool tip: 6885.4
mkXI omega per faceing: 8951- 1.10004 mod
borg tool tip: 5775
borg per faceing: 7507- 1.09993 mod
(there is a decimal point not displayed in the UI, effecting the math)
it showing a ~1.1 shield mod across the board tells me that its not the skill tree skill points effecting things on the tier 2&3 fleet ships. now here is were it gets real interesting
fleet ktinga with a listed .94 shield mod
mkXII KHG tool tip: 8004.2
mkXII KHG per faceing: 11780- 1.07472 mod
mkXI omega tool tip: 5920.2
mkXI omega per faceing: 9071- 1.11475 mod, a bit more then fleet vorcha
borg tool tip: 4950
borg per faceing: 7810- 1.14432 mod, a bit more then fleet vorcha
decided to give the omega shield a try, the gap between the capacity on the vorcha is 3106, but on the ktinga its only 2709, a 397 capacity difference. time to run infected elite again :rolleyes:
gravametic anchor is awesome by the way, never looked into it much but in addition to making you unable to turn for 10 seconds, it lowers defense score by 50! so yes, when you see me dump plasma wile we fly strait at each other, you will in fact be flying directly into it
for more data, here's my non fleet somraw retrofit, listed 0.65 shield mod
mkXII KHG tool tip: 5582
mkXII KHG per faceing: 8820- .80467 mod
mkXI omega tool tip: 4119
mkXI omega per faceing: 6917- .85007 mod
borg tool tip: 3437
borg per faceing: 6037- .88366 mod
1903 hitpoint difference between KHG and omega here
and here's how the shields are on a a normal qin with an .83 mod across the board to compare to the somraw
mkXII KHG tool tip: 7026
mkXII KHG per faceing: 9134- .83332 mod
mkXI omega tool tip: 5216
mkXI omega per faceing: 5687- .83335 mod
borg tool tip: 4375
borg per faceing: 5687- .83326 mod
(math effected by undisplayed decimal point again)
as you can see, tier 2 and 3 fleet ships definitely favor lower capacity shields, even surpassing their superior tier 5 fleet ship bretheran, if my fleet vorcha is any baseline.
just thought i would post about this, my testing has definitely effected my shield choice, at least on the kdf side. i think this is a good indication that the fleet bops will have a much nicer total shield capacity then it has listed at the very least, and all those somraws, sabers, novas, etc... are more then viable ships for use. i would DEFINITELY chose a fleet saber over a fleet patrol now, provided its maco hitpoints are higher. the 'apparent' shield mod on my mkXI maco fleet heavy cruiser is 1.10595, when .94 is its listed.
this is why this information is important, and why i choose to provide it, with it who would opt for a fleet patrol over a fleet saber?
Post edited by dontdrunkimshoot on
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(and if this is a math bug and they get rid of it, they do need to find some other way to make the lower tier refits worth using)
In either case, awesome work hunting down this info.
and yes, any fix beter not leave these ships with shield hitpoints in the tank, that would be UNACCEPTABLE. .8 on the somraw is much more reasonable then .65, thats insainly low.
a.) everything feeling the same, or
b.) odious power creep, or
c.) weird convoluted differentiators.
Maybe it's not too late to change to something more SFC-like. It's a problem that will only get bigger as time goes on after all. Ideally they would just copy-paste the basically perfect system from Starship Creator.
ya actual hardpoints would have been awesome, they worked great in star trek legacy, after a TON of moding. at the very least side weapons, now they are proboly going to release 1 ship with side weapons and its gonna be terrible.
a slider for how strong we want certain shield facings would be nice too, being able to set 115% up front and 95 everywhere else for example. i remember the SFC games having different strengths for different facings.
i loved geeking out in starship creator, i should reload that. they wouldn't even need to do that though, just taking the space part of the skill tree and putting it in the ship costume screen so you can change around your ship's equipment (skills and the skill points in them) as you see fit. it wouldn't be a respec, it would be a refit. and it wouldn't cost zen to do, which is STUPID for how needed it is if you adjust your build.
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
Can anyone confirm the shield data for that ship?
Zenith Nader - R.R.W. Nader4President - Tactical Rom KDF
Hei Qin - I.K.S. Apex Revenant -Tactical KDF
That should be the case. I won't know for certain until my kdf sci hits level cap. (as I'm going to build a Sci X Wing Sci Bop)
Actually it seems to me they put a modifier they later forgot about or that it is an inside joke by some dev with lots of free time (and that's "rolling on the floor laughing", literally).
What's a positive, even the lowest shield mods found (measured with KHG shields) are still far superior to those listed.
I wonder if the Borg shield could get any use with those lower tier retrofits. :P After all, it isn't that bad if you're not being fired at with hight bursts.
Toi'Va, Ti'vath, Toivia, Ty'Vris, Tia Vex, Toi'Virth: Add Tier 6 KDF Carrier and Raider.
Tae'Va, T'Vaya, To'Var, Tevra, T'Vira, To'Vrak: Give us Asylums for Romulans.
Don't make ARC mandatory! Keep it optional only!
no field gens on any of those ships when i recorded their hitpoints
would have had to go to tribble and strip that in a respec, but since the skill points didn't effect the mod one way or the other on the fleet vorcha, i take it that those skill tree modifier has no effect on what appears to be the shield mod, and nothing to do with the hidden bonus curve on those other ships.
Mk Xii KHG per facing shows 10961 which just happens to be 8431*1.3, or your skill mod on the base vorcha. So we know now the amount shown in dock or tooltip on the vorcha is the base shield amount and we can avoid doing math with it again. This is the list with skill mod.
KHG = 10961
Omega = 8137
Borg = 6825
Now lets take a look at the Fleet Ktinga. .94 mod, it applies to the skill mod so we can actually ignore that part of the math.
With the listed shield mod applied with skill mod would be
KHG = 10303
Omega = 7649
Borg = 6415
So the first number is what it would be without the hidden bonus, second number is the amount you really get.
KHG = 10303 / 11780
Omega = 7649 / 9071
Borg = 6415 / 7810
Now what could we do to the first number with this myserious hidden mechanic to make it the second?
Add the flat bonus of roughly 1477 to 1395. Reason that the number is not exact is likely due to rounding in my math somewhere or an accolade that does effect it or even if your skill bonus changed by equipping a different deflector. There is also the possibility that the flat bonus scales with mark level of the shield but I did not see that in my previous original testing.
for proboly the 5th time, the skill mod did not give the fleet vorcha a curve at all. if it was what was causing the apparent curves on the ktinga and somraw, it would have effected the fleet vorcha as well.
Because the fleet vorcha is a mod of a lvl 40 ship. It's shield mod is the same as the other fleet ships and does not get a flat bonus, only the retrofits of the lower tier ships do.
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=357641
Is where I show my original testing.
i started off by saying things are different between level 40 and up fleet ships and everything below. those level 40 ships ONLY have thier listed shield mod with nothing else hidden, curved or flat.
when i took the base line off the vorcha R with with a captain that had 9 to shield capacity skill, and based all other measurements off that baseline, the skillpoints invested became a non factor.
Standard Shield Strength Formula
((Base * Skill Modifier) + (Base * Console Modifier) + Base) * Ship Modifier
-Base is from the shield you equip
-Skill Modifier at 99 shield system skill is .3
Fleet Retrofit Shield Formula
(((Base * Skill Modifier) + (Base * Console Modifier) + Base) * Ship Modifier) + Flat Bonus
If you equip something that increases either the skill modifier, or the console modifier you will notice that their % increase is different between the fleet retrofits and all other ships. The only way to account for that is a flat bonus at the end of the formula.
For example, if you equipped a blue Mk 11 console to the Vorcha it would gain 13.5% (roughly) shield strength. Because it scales with the ship shield modifier it will grant that amount to every single ship you fly, EXCEPT the fleet retrofits. On those you would only gain roughly an 11% increase because it, and the skill bonus, do not effect the Flat Bonus that only they get.
That is why the skill bonus does matter for the math. The flat bonus that ONLY the new retrofit ships have is not effected by it.
To compare it to something else. Some boff abilities that effect weapons do not effect the bonus damage that the weapons gain from tac consoles. Hence why some boff abilities are better than others by a large amount on an escort vs a cruiser. It all depends on where in the formula those bonuses are added and where you put the multiplication signs at.
Were all your tests done with no deflector on the ships?
so your saying these sub tier 5 fleet ships just have a flat +1000 (just a random number) or so hitpoints to go with their worse mod? you may be on to something here, that would make it seemed curved in this case. is that +flat effected by the listed mod? is it independent of that?
im really starting to hate these fleet ship shields. for the life of me i don't know why they wouldn't advertise the bonus shields, that would be an incentive to buy one. or oh i don't know, give them better shield mods without this confusing extra!?
the deflector i had on was ether borg or omega, nether effects shield capacity skill
Yes that is exactly what I am saying. The most obvious way to see it is to slap a Mk 1 shield onto them.
The only reason I noticed it so fast was by observing the % gain from the shield cap console. That to me was a dead give-away.
if only there was a fleet ship with an exact 1.0 shield mod, and another with exactly .9, i could have this all figured out in 5 minutes :rolleyes:
I could understand a strange, forgotten mod. But this? It's like they tasked someone not knowledgeable of the system to "make shields better" on those ships.
And that someone just added hp to them, oblivious to multipliers, mods.
It's just so messy a system now...
Toi'Va, Ti'vath, Toivia, Ty'Vris, Tia Vex, Toi'Virth: Add Tier 6 KDF Carrier and Raider.
Tae'Va, T'Vaya, To'Var, Tevra, T'Vira, To'Vrak: Give us Asylums for Romulans.
Don't make ARC mandatory! Keep it optional only!
It is certainly not the only explanation, though it is the simplest and most obvious. Despite that, you're wrong.
In the OP's example of the fleet K'tinga:
The KHG shields have an extra 1476.66 points of shielding
The Omega shields have an extra 1422.22 points of shielding
The Borg shields have an extra 1394.5 points of shielding
That is obviously not a flat bonus. The bonus points of shielding gradually decline as the overall shield capacity does, on a shallow curve.
Who is that guy anyway?
I mean it's pretty you know Obvious when you look at the different shields. Bad Math is Bad?
He's the bad escort build guy. He is in need of your help, Mav.
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=3632284&postcount=5
This reminds me of the revelation that there are tier modifiers in play that they don't want to tell us about. And the other threads that showed that they're not all that sure about how they work. And the other threads where they finally figure out that the "hidden tier modifier" is interacting with things (FBP) in ways they didn't expect.
CommanderDonatra@Capt.Sisko: ahhh is it supposed to do that?
Norvo Tigan@dontdrunkimshoot: hell ya, maybe
| Join Date: January 2009 | Computer | Fleet: Broken Wings |
Having just read the last 4 pages of the thread (I dared not go back farther) the only help he will qualify for from me is the kind where I link him products to get the sand out of his ***.