I'm sorry, this post upsets me so much I have to post again. Seriously what is wrong with you OP? Banning people for leaving STF? That's their personal choice. I'm sorry authoriatarian wannabe dictators such as yourself don't get his concept, but this is something I do in my free time. PvE that goes wrong due to people deliberately griefing (most common reason I leave), or some noob who refuses to even have their chat window open to learn something is no fun for me. Leaving is my right, why? Because I have something that I HAVE to do every day, it's call a job. If you don't like it, start your own fleet as I have and create your own mission. On a side note though, I can't imagine the type of brown noser yes man who would put up with you for more than 5 minutes, but it sure wouldn't be me.
We take the game seriously because we take our time seriously. The need to replay a mission hiundreds of times for a combination of loot and accolades can get frustrtating.
This isn't a case of, "Oh I love this mission so much I want play it over and over and over and rage at anyone who #&@^$ it up!" :P
It's a case of, -_-" "I still haven't gotten that piece of tech or that accolade. Who's on I can rely on... 2 others, okay well let's do this." and one of the other two my team joins yells out "Leroooooy Jeeeeenkins!"
You're probably one of the goofs who does F$&*^ it up (your words not mine). Hey I'll go along with your ridiculous and authoritarian leaver's penalty, if I'm allowed to vote kick people like yourself who don't know what you're doing in STF, or better yet, shoot at you and destroy your ship for TRIBBLE up.
wouldnt it be better to just have a player
pay a penalty fee for leaving early?
have that player sent to jail facility 4028
and they cant leave till they pay a penalty fee
like let say 100k fleet credits. if they cant pay
they have to wait and stay in jail for 2 hours
account wide across all characters.
just a thought everyone asking for a change
so why not make it huge penalty
and if those that get sent to jail complain
well let them complain lol...
This is actually a pretty funny idea. Besides, I thought the mission on facility 4028 was
awesome
A) I've been disconnected, we all have. But honestly, how many players are in STF's so frequently that the occasional disconnect will cause a highly inconvenient penalty to be incurred?
1) if the proposal is minute (my-nute) as you say, then why alter anything for DC's? or deliberate logg-offs, or even leaving the instance? you have just invalidated 90% of your post.
A-1) It will be minute for the innocent, not for the repeat offenders.
One possible way to further protect those legitimately disconnected on Cryptic?s end is lower the penalty to a single infraction. Those trying to game the system will still earn plenty of infractions fast enough to be stung by the harsher punishments.
KEEP in mind, that the first infraction is a 30 minute lockout that runs simultaneously with the 1 hour cool down.
How frequently are you actually disconnected while in the middle of an STF or Fleet Mark mission that this would become an issue? Please, give me some numbers! The only ones I?ve got are mine.
Fees are something I am considering in the form of a buyout. The penalty of 8 infractions would cost more to buyout than 2 infractions. The penalty of 2 suspensions with 4 additional incursions more than 1 suspension with 7 additional incursions.
2) buyouts are ridiculous, period. that just tells someone if they have enough cash they can do the same thing again. and gold diggers dont care, they would just pay up and sit in the next instance. wont work, dont try it. besides, who gets the money? the people he/she was in the instance with? that seems only fair no? since they left the group hanging...
B-1) I like that idea of the money going to those they left.
Initially you are right, people who use the buyouts will do it over and over.
The catch shows you didn?t read very closely, the more infractions, suspensions, and expulsions on your record will raise the cost of the buyout.
Eventually, even the gold diggers will start to run low on cash.
C) Voting. Yes voting can be abused. But the chat logs that a person kicked will recieve, can be used to file a report IF the kick is an unjust kick. In which case, the kickers get in trouble.
Re-read the section on AFK.
3) your voting proposal is akin to the silence feature that others have issues with in this game. if a person got voted out and is dismissed from the instance, but it later is discovered it was on purpose or had no merit, how do you then make it correct for the person that was kicked out? not only do they get a penalty time, but now they have missed out on marks, drops, xp, etc... wont work as many would like it to. (just check all the griever threads on the silence feature, then get back to me)
C-1) I have read those silence feature threads. And, again you did NOT read very closely.
Here?s an excerpt from the proposal:
Upon being kicked, a player shall receive the following:
~A single infraction.
~A log of ALL chat within the mission covering the 7 minutes leading up to the kick.
~A log of the final minute of Combat (Self) information.
If a the chat log show a player has been unjustly kicked, a ticket can be submitted with either or both of the two logs. If it is determined that a player was indeed unjustly kicked that player shall have the lockout immediately lifted and receive one of the following:
~2 Encrypted Data Chips if kicked from a Normal STF
~1 Common Borg Salvage if kicked from a Normal STF
~3 Encrypted Data Chips if kicked from an Elite STF
~1 Rare Borg Salvage if kicked from an Elite STF
~15 Fleet Marks if kicked from a Fleet mark mission.
The kickers who unjustly kicked, will receive 3 infractions.
Did I answer your question as to what the person kicked gets?
D) If a player is sitting there with weak weapons, it could be because the player is putting the effort into defensive gear, threat gen, shield buffs, zone denial, and heals. So perhaps, heal points used on self and others should be in the equation.
4) i dont think you got what i was saying about weak weps. but i am sure there is a way to create a log that can detect heals, shield buffs, etc... (this has been proposed for fleet actions so that sci toons and engy toons can get the 1st place trophy based on class skills and not just dmg output. they posting that thread and see how far it gets)
D-1) If my strategy is not DPS-based, my funds don?t need to go into the high-grade weapons that a DPS-based strategy needs.
E) It's impossible to create a system that can account for EVERY variable.
To say nothing should be done because of that, is an invalid argument.
5) and to say that something should be done without knowledge of all events invalidates your posting.
E-1) I?m happy to listen to how you build a system can take all the possible variables into account when we, as humans, cannot know everything that can, does, and could happen?
But do we even need to account for the 1-in-a-million occurrence?
Is there not a point than an occurrence become so rare that accounting for it becomes harder than fixing the root issue?
I understand the desire of veterans wanting to rage quit. I've almost done it myself. But rage quitting before the players that need to learn tactics that can be contrary to instict have a chance to run through enough times to figure those out is just as bad as those who just leave to TRIBBLE you.
My skill level or the skill level of another player in this thread is not at issue here, however. I will say this one final time: The only place there is an issue with my tactics causing a problem for the team is in the final chamber of IGE. My first time through on IGN showed me I needed two rifles that could snipe. Until I had them, I did not go back. I've only played IG, maybe, 5 times, but I could give tutorials on the others. Even so, I still know the basics on IG. With that said:
Let's keep the discussion in this thread on the proposal and ideas so they can be refined.
Personal attacks, against anyone, have no place during a brainstorming session.
I would rather someone leave than have a bitter player ruining my fun playing a mission. If people are such pros all the time then they shouldn't have a problem finding their own private team.
That being said the biggest problem I see are certain unnamed fleets, C**** Objectors, (since we can't mention names here) and their minions AFKing in Starbase Incursion and others just to ruin the game play. Unfortunately these missions are also time gated for the better marks and have a 30 minute cooldown to repeat. So if you get one of these losers on your map and don't leave your screwed. I automatically leave the team every time someone from this particular fleet is in the mission and I explain to the group why I'm out of there. I actually keep a sticky note on my desktop to cut and paste the text into the chat. This happens at least once per 2hr event.
I'm a lifetime member and have paid for this game many times over. I don't agree with a leaver penalty for reasons like what I just discussed. I do think F2P has increased these problems but penalties aren't going to stop someone from just creating another toon or F2P account. They've made it so easy to level up in this game you could be a VA in days.
Gold Sub since March 2010
Lifetime Sub since June 2010
I would rather someone leave than have a bitter player ruining my fun playing a mission.
I fully understand the frustration of being in a STF and having a person or two totally TRIBBLE it up.
I was with 2 other people from my fleet earlier today in Infected Ground Elite. The entire time we felt like we were carrying the other two people through the mission. In the final chamber, the word came down "Jumpers go." In 5 seconds I realized no one was jumping. Trusing my fleet members to lay down better cover fire, I called upon the two others and started jumping. They were told SEVEN times to stop clearing the room and jump over to me. They failed to stop clearing the room, stood there like derps, and the drones respwned. After we all had to respawn, they wondered why the three of us were so upset. And than said "I don't jump." If that was the case, SAY SO when you are called up to do so!
We left and took the penalty.
I admit and agree, SOMETHING has to be put in place so when players find themselves in the situation I (and my fleetmates) found ourselves in, we could leave.
I am open to suggestions on how a system to allow for that while minimizing the cheating could be put in place.
An off-the-cuff idea is to require a minimum of 20 EDC to be earned on the normal varient of the mission before Elite is unlocked in addition to being Lvl 50.
I'm open to other sugestions.
I fully understand the frustration of being in a STF and having a person or two totally TRIBBLE it up.
I was with 2 other people from my fleet earlier today in Infected Ground Elite. The entire time we felt like we were carrying the other two people through the mission. In the final chamber, the word came down "Jumpers go." In 5 seconds I realized no one was jumping. Trusing my fleet members to lay down better cover fire, I called upon the two others and started jumping. They were told SEVEN times to stop clearing the room and jump over to me. They failed to stop clearing the room, stood there like derps, and the drones respwned. After we all had to respawn, they wondered why the three of us were so upset. And than said "I don't jump." If that was the case, SAY SO when you are called up to do so!
We left and took the penalty.
I admit and agree, SOMETHING has to be put in place so when players find themselves in the situation I (and my fleetmates) found ourselves in, we could leave.
I am open to suggestions on how a system to allow for that while minimizing the cheating could be put in place.
An off-the-cuff idea is to require a minimum of 20 EDC to be earned on the normal varient of the mission before Elite is unlocked in addition to being Lvl 50.
I'm open to other sugestions.
There's no cheating when you leave a STF. Now you start to understand why any kind of penalty is a pain for fair and good players. Carrying others is fine as long as they don't prevent you from completing the mission, but most of the time they do and won't read what you told in chat.
There's one easy and simple solution: no leaver penalty at all. Everyone is happy. Players with a high rate of leavers will start considering that they do something wrong and good players will be able to leave when they know that the stf can't be completed. Because with some experience, you know when it's not possible after 2-3 minutes or so. The leaver penalty is just a waste of time for everyone.
I see nothing wrong saying pugs you'll leave if they don't listen to your advices because STFs require a high level of technical knowledge.
After reading the various threads, I feel a revamp of the entire system is needed, one that is based on stackable infractions, suspensions, and expulsions that expire over time.
First, the numerical breakdowns:
Infractions (character-specific)
1 - one-half hour STF or Fleet Mark que lockout (simultaneous with cool down)
2 - one hour STF or Fleet Mark que lockout (followed by cool down)
3 - one and one-half hours
4 - two hours
5 - two and one-half hours
6 - three hours
7 - three and one-half hours
8 - four hours
9 - four and one-half hours
10 - Suspension
Suspensions
1 - twenty-four hour Character lockout from STO or Fleet Mark que
2 - forty-eight hour Character lockout from STO or Fleet Mark que
3 - seventy-two hour Character lockout from STO or Fleet Mark que
4 - ninty-six hour Character lockout from STO or Fleet Mark que
5 - PVE que expulsion
Expulsions
1 - fifteen day Account lockout from entire PVE que
2 - thirty day Account lockout from entire PVE que
3 - forty-five day Account lockout from entire PVE que
4 - sixty day Account lockout from entire PVE que
5 - Deletion of Character (Requires 250 infractions that create 16 suspensions and 4 expulsions.)
6 - Removal of Account
Explanation Breakdown :
Infractions remain on a character's record for 5 days (120 hours) after being entered into the record.
Suspensions remain on a character's record for 1 months (30 days) after being entered into the record.
Expulsions remain on a character's record for 12 months (365 days) after being entered into the record.
Infractions shall be issued in the following manner:
~First of Five to leave via pressing the "Leave System" or "Exit" buttons earns 2 infractions.
~Second of Five to leave via pressing the "Leave System" or "Exit" buttons earns 1 infraction.
~Third, Forth, and Fifth to leave earns no infractions.
Reasons behind the above numbers:
~The first person to leave puts the team at a disadvantage; however, the current Join Any Game que method could bring a new player into the match. Also, it is fully possible to finish an STF or Fleet Mark mission with only 4 people if tactics are properly changed up.
~The second person to leave should be punished for not waiting for a replacement member, however, if after 7 minutes of no replacement, no person shall be punished for leaving.
~When 3 players remain with not a single replacement after 5 minutes, no person shall be punished for deciding the mission objectives cannot be met.
13 days is the shortest time to earn a 1st expulsion.
Followed by 28 days to earn a 2nd expulsion.
~71 days for a 3rd.
~129 days for a 4th.
~202 days for deletion of character.
Implementation of this system would require a place within the HUD where one can view the number of infractions, suspensions, and expulsions one has, as well as how much time is remains until the oldest until removal.
In regards to Cowardice (not logging any damage given or received) and AFK; if a person is AFK or is displaying Cowardice for 5 minutes, pause the instance and bring up a pop-up. This pop up would define Cowardice and AFK in simple terms. Included in the text must be a clear statement that makes it clear that players who announce AFK are not to be kicked. At the bottom are two [Remove From Team] and [Do Nothing]. Removal from team will kick the player from the mission. Do Nothing is exactly as it implies, keeps the player in the mission. A majority vote of at least 66% is needed to remove a player from the team.
Upon being kicked, a player shall receive the following:
~A single infraction.
~A log of ALL chat within the mission covering the 7 minutes leading up to the kick.
~A log of the final minute of Combat (Self) information.
If a the chat log show a player has been unjustly kicked, a ticket can be submitted with either or both of the two logs. If it is determined that a player was indeed unjustly kicked that player shall have the lockout immediately lifted and receive one of the following:
~2 Encrypted Data Chips if kicked from a Normal STF
~1 Common Borg Salvage if kicked from a Normal STF
~3 Encrypted Data Chips if kicked from an Elite STF
~1 Rare Borg Salvage if kicked from an Elite STF
~15 Fleet Marks if kicked from a Fleet mark mission.
The kickers who unjustly kicked, will receive 3 infractions.
Side notes:
It has been pointed out that many veteran STF'ers are after the optional accolades. They feel it is unfair to be sent into a mission that has already lost the Optional and be unable to hop out without penalty so as not to waste their time. To alleviate this, the best option would be to add "Join Any Game" or "Join New Game" options in the PVE que, as is seen in the PVP que.
Leaving because the optional failed should not be a valid option because if the team of five, or even four, is still present the primary objectives are still achievable. The only thing lost is the Optional loot bag. To leave because the optional has failed puts the rest of the team left behind in the mission at a disadvantage and risk of having their time wasted. Selfishness is no reason to avoid a penalty.
Needs further work:
Disconnect detection
Lag Spike detection
On a personal note: I do realize some players may inadvertently be given an infraction. No system is perfect. I know I'll earn a few if this is implemented. But this proposal is to focus on the players who regularly TRIBBLE over other players. The players who are decent and respect their fellow players will never earn enough infractions to even reach a suspension much less an expulsion. So, the final two punishments, "Character deletion" and "Account removal" should never be a concern for the respectful player.
Plus, this is a first round proposal. Discussion of concerns will lead to tweaking and improvements. Im looking for constructive criticism. If you have an issue with a certain part, whats the issue? How would you deal with it? If you dont know a solution, list the concern and that you arent sure how to address it.
Instead of making pointless rules that are too complicated to understand, just get over yourself and accept that public stfs fail most of the time. From my understanding there is private elite channels where you can arrange games with the best. Cryptic aren't going to start banning people, (potential sources of cash), from the game just because of you and people like you so grow up and accept that it happens.
This entire thread is pretty pointless. The OP's delusions of STF punishment are pointless for two reasons:
1. OP still enjoys STFs, and has not realized them for the boring-TRIBBLE, useless time sinks that they are. OP even claims to take his time in STFs seriously. The rest of us take things like jobs and family seriously, and don't emotionally invest ourselves in a grind game collectiong fictional virtual widgets.
2. OP seems to think that Cryptic is in any way able to implement such a convoluted set of procedures without TRIBBLE it up. STFs already glitch in such a fashion where a player can receive the current leaver penalty simply by collecting their loot and clicking 'Leave Map.' Suddenly, STF timeout. OP expects these same developers to implement complicated rules concerning multiple punishments, based on how and when someone leaves. Meantime, we're still having to readjust our zoom when moving from ground to space.
1. OP still enjoys STFs, and has not realized them for the boring-TRIBBLE, useless time sinks that they are. OP even claims to take his time in STFs seriously. The rest of us take things like jobs and family seriously, and don't emotionally invest ourselves in a grind game collectiong fictional virtual widgets.
MR. Mattimeo, If you are going to try quoting me, actually quote me. Don't try and put your inaccurate spin on my words.
We take the game seriously because we take our time seriously. The need to replay a mission hundreds of times for a combination of loot and accolades can get frustrtating.
Family, jobs, recreation are all important. Not just game time, but our time as a whole. Hence, "we take our time seriously."
You dont take your time seriously enough to teach newbies how to play properly XD
If a man is by a river and hungry, I will try and teach him how to fish. But if he just wants to goof off, ruin the fishing, and not listen, he's going to get very wet.
1. there would be a very good system that could detect problems with your connection (because i already got a penalty for that in the past)
2. there would be a fix for all those STFs suffering from no "leave system" button that pops up like 2 minutes after the STF is complete
the first is not so common to me anymore as i have a 100mbit internet now but the second is a problem that everyone knows already and its not like this bug exists since the last patch. it exists for a couple of months already and still not fixed.
1. there would be a very good system that could detect problems with your connection (because i already got a penalty for that in the past)
2. there would be a fix for all those STFs suffering from no "leave system" button that pops up like 2 minutes after the STF is complete
the first is not so common to me anymore as i have a 100mbit internet now but the second is a problem that everyone knows already and its not like this bug exists since the last patch. it exists for a couple of months already and still not fixed.
I agree that those are issues. But no one has answered my repeted question:
How often do either of those happen to you while you are in an STF or Fleet Mark mission?
(In this case: within a 4 day period)
If I don't know how frequently it is happening to other players, I don't know how heavily to wiegh that issue.
here gos an idea, well i consider it a wild idea that could be possible
Create Penalty accolades, these accolades are to keep track can not be completed
1 will keep track of your early leaver penalties
this penalty will give you a debuff, the debuff will reduce your dilithium rewards
on all borg stf missions/quests and reduce your drop rate
so every time you leave the debuff will be doubled.
the only way to remove the debuff is when you finish an stf mission with out
leaving,
MR. Mattimeo, If you are going to try quoting me, actually quote me. Don't try and put your inaccurate spin on my words.
You'll notice that I'm quoting you now. Not trying to quote you, but actually quoting you. There's a button for it, and it's not difficult. Which would lead a rational individual to believe that I had no intention of quoting you before; which I did not. When I am speaking to you, I will address you, as I am doing now.
As it is, my 'spin' is hardly inaccurate. You don't value your liesure time at all; this thread makes that readily apparent. If your time was valuable to anyone, most of all yourself, you wouldn't spend it tilting at windmills, attempting to garner support for Cryptic to enact what would very likely be a broken version of your ridiculously convoluted leaver penalty system. You wouldn't be bawwing to your heart's content about people 'ruining' an ultimately pointless leisure activity. STFs are enjoyable at times; they are also repetitive, tiresome, and rapidly grow boring. They are far from the end-all, be-all of the STO experience. It boggles the mind that anyone puts so much emotional investment into gaining widgets that ultimately are doled out based upon random numbers alone. You've managed to take something that's supposed to be a distraction and turn it into a source of irritation and concern.
Furthermore, you choose to play pickup games. The nonsense associated with them is the penalty that you pay for doing so. There is absolutely nothing that Cryptic can implement, to include your overly complicated leaver penalty, that will remove the nonsense from PuG queues. Accounts are free; multiple accounts are available for anyone who chooses to sign up. Griefers will always grief, the willfully ignorant will remain so, and those who do not care about running an STF properly will continue to not care. They'll simply log in to their other account, and continue their shenanigans. And ultimately, they'll still be having more fun than you appear to be.
Character/Account bans for leaving STF's? And possible character/account deletions :eek:
Nope 100% against that. The problems with this kind of system, what happens to those that actually get disconnected from the game by no fault of their own? What if it happens more than once in a month time frame? Should they get the stacked penalty? Because there is no way PWE could actually prove they didn't just "disconnect" to get out of the STF (as a disconnect is a disconnect).
I get that the STF Leaver penalty sucks but that's why you can do private queues, there is quite a few channels for getting teams together and what have you.
I have to say, I like this idea a lot. Needs perhaps a little touching up in the details, but overall on the mark.
To those who think maybe it is too harsh, It takes FIVE times to be the first to leave an STF in order to get the 24 hour suspension. To earn a lockout is a LOT of times. If your connection is actually bad enough to cause you to incur a suspension, you probably shouldn't be in STF anyways because you are probably making it really hard on the rest of the players making up for your absence and/or delayed reactions due to epic lag.
I personally would actually want the penalties to be more severe. Think about it this way. If a person only need the optional from an STF, and someone screws that up quickly, they can leave and incur a penalty. The current penalty is a one hour ban, the same length of time you will have to wait AFTER a completed run. For the person who isn't after tech or salvage, but only the accolade, a one hour ban starting instantly after the optional fails, is a better deal than trudging through the entire run, THEN having to wait an hour. (this occurred to me during the time I was grinding IGE for the tech and wondered "why leave when you can still get the loot?") The answer was, "Because I can get another try at the optional faster if I quit now."
Therefore I would notch the hurt UP a bit on the penalties. (I would suggest the first penalty be a two hour ban from only STF missions, and then scale it from there)
On the flip side, however, there should also be a way out for a player that gets stuck with a REALLY bad crew that has NO chance of beating the scenario. If you started the death count from the start of the mission, you could add the same kind of "right to leave" situation that you proposed for boss fights, to the mission in general. For the person who really does only need the optional, if an hour after the mission started, it becomes clear that the current group doesn't stand a chance, it really stinks to be literally trapped in the instance. (I would suggest 15 deaths before the boss room is sufficient to realize it's not going to happen) In my opinion, even though it's called "optional" the fact that the accolade counts for something makes it legit to be overly concerned about succeeding at it. Part of the blame for rage leaving is often a crew that simply refuses to TRY for it.*
My only other comment is that IMO the second person to leave shouldn't be penalized if no replacement has been slotted after three minutes. In most runs if you lose three minutes of having five people, the run will probably fail anyways.
So that's my input on what to me seems a really good functional proposal for limiting early leavers in STFS!
* (OPTIONAL PERSONAL THOUGHT ON STFs IN GENERAL) I myself have manged to collect all the tech I needed and complete all the optionals on both my Fed and KDF toons, so I am pretty much retired from STFs, but my experiences there almost made me hate this game, so I feel this thread is very much worth being a part of. The concept of STF is so cool, especially being able to team up KDF and Federation toons together. The missions are well thought out, and a great deal of fun with a team that cares enough to play together. The pressure of needing the tech or accolade, sometimes results in people (like myself at one point) who are doing the run, not to enjoy the particulars of it, but just to get to the drop bag at the end. Perhaps the solution to the whole issue, is to slightly tweak the reward system. Develop a scoring system for the STF (simple timer based score would be enough really) and let that score affect the drop rate. My idea on fixing the drops follows:
If the run is successfully completed, the timer score now comes into play. If the main timer goal is met, every player will earn either tech or salvage (perhaps 20% likely to get tech and 80% salvage, but maybe that's too easy to get tech). If the main timer goal is not met, no salvage or tech is won and instead is replaced my 5 extra EDCs. The QUALITY of the tech/salvage would be determined by the optional. If the optional was successful, tech/salvage will be prototype, and if not, it will be rare.
This system would give incentive to every player to try as hard as they can to succeed, not only at the part that matters to them, but also at the part that matters to the others on the team.
Does anyone have a rough idea as to the average number of times a server disconnect occurs while in an STF or Fleet Mark mission over the course of 4 days?
A) I've been disconnected, we all have. But honestly, how many players are in STF's so frequently that the occasional disconnect will cause a highly inconvenient penalty to be incurred?
How often do either of those happen to you while you are in an STF or Fleet Mark mission?
(In this case: within a 4 day period)
And on Sept 29th, I have asked for the figures, even if they were not exact, you see mentioned above.
Considering that NO ONE has given me any figures to take into consideration. I am forced to conclude, once again, that disconnects will not be a major problem and that any penalty because of a disconnect will be a mere inconvenience.
The matter of disconnects is closed.
__________________________________________________________________________
On to other matters:
~The length of time for an AFK?er to be considered officially AFK and to bring up the voting pop-up.
~The length of time for a coward to be considered a coward and to bring up the voting pop-up.
~What triggers the ?Right-to-Leave? vote?
Regarding R2L, it has been proposed that after a certain number of team wide deaths before the boss chamber would trigger a voting pop-up. The number proposed was 15. While I have my concerns, I do like that idea. My concern is this: what if there you have 4 really good STF vets, and 1 that?s new, but is listening and trying to learn?
That newbie used to be me at one point. Yes, I was dying frequently. But I was being revived on scene, I was being taught the tactics, failing at almost every turn, and burning through my regen devices. But those 4 vets dragged my behind along as I bumbled my way through, but I was learning. (And this was before the penalty existed.)
At the end of my first STF, I?d adapted my tactics and was able to help kill Tosk. There were 2 Rare Armor techs given out, another got Rare Salvage, the 4th guy got Common Salvage, and I got a Rare Salvage. (At the time I didn?t realize how unusual 5 loot bags like that were.) I rushed back to DS9 and used that rare salvage to get a Mk XI Antiproton Sniper Rifle that I used for a long time.
I learned so much in that first STF mission I ran, more so because of my TRIBBLE-ups than my successes. But that?s how I?ve always been. Had there been a R2L system that was X-amount of deaths team wide, we probably never would have made it to Tosk. Now the point of that reminiscing was to illustrate why I believe that one team member should not be allowed to accumulate all of the deaths needed to bring up right to leave.
I know when weaker members that die frequently on teams I?ve been on, it causes veterans to get taken out. So, I would recommend, if the number needed is 15 deaths before the boss chamber, that one player can only add 10 deaths to the number needed.
Thirdly.. there are people who go into the STFS just to leave it or mess it up for the rest and best of us. Tell me.. would you rather have to deal with pugs who just go into the match just to jack it up then please.. be my guest.. il send butts from dental over to ya to troll your stfs.
Pardon me if I'm late in getting this, but I am not under your authority. You cannot tell me what to do. I appreciate you for attempting to troll your own members of your fleet, but you must realize that this is against the rule.
So what if you're a horrible dictator that will end up being executed, I am not your lackey and will never be anyone's lackey.
You've made an enemy today. :mad:
Edit: I don't troll STFs. I'm not very good at them and try my best. I've only played Elite STFs, so that might be the reason why.
Comments
You're probably one of the goofs who does F$&*^ it up (your words not mine). Hey I'll go along with your ridiculous and authoritarian leaver's penalty, if I'm allowed to vote kick people like yourself who don't know what you're doing in STF, or better yet, shoot at you and destroy your ship for TRIBBLE up.
This is actually a pretty funny idea. Besides, I thought the mission on facility 4028 was
awesome
A-1) It will be minute for the innocent, not for the repeat offenders.
One possible way to further protect those legitimately disconnected on Cryptic?s end is lower the penalty to a single infraction. Those trying to game the system will still earn plenty of infractions fast enough to be stung by the harsher punishments.
KEEP in mind, that the first infraction is a 30 minute lockout that runs simultaneously with the 1 hour cool down.
How frequently are you actually disconnected while in the middle of an STF or Fleet Mark mission that this would become an issue? Please, give me some numbers! The only ones I?ve got are mine.
B-1) I like that idea of the money going to those they left.
Initially you are right, people who use the buyouts will do it over and over.
The catch shows you didn?t read very closely, the more infractions, suspensions, and expulsions on your record will raise the cost of the buyout.
Eventually, even the gold diggers will start to run low on cash.
C-1) I have read those silence feature threads. And, again you did NOT read very closely.
Here?s an excerpt from the proposal:
Upon being kicked, a player shall receive the following:
~A single infraction.
~A log of ALL chat within the mission covering the 7 minutes leading up to the kick.
~A log of the final minute of Combat (Self) information.
If a the chat log show a player has been unjustly kicked, a ticket can be submitted with either or both of the two logs. If it is determined that a player was indeed unjustly kicked that player shall have the lockout immediately lifted and receive one of the following:
~2 Encrypted Data Chips if kicked from a Normal STF
~1 Common Borg Salvage if kicked from a Normal STF
~3 Encrypted Data Chips if kicked from an Elite STF
~1 Rare Borg Salvage if kicked from an Elite STF
~15 Fleet Marks if kicked from a Fleet mark mission.
The kickers who unjustly kicked, will receive 3 infractions.
Did I answer your question as to what the person kicked gets?
D-1) If my strategy is not DPS-based, my funds don?t need to go into the high-grade weapons that a DPS-based strategy needs.
E-1) I?m happy to listen to how you build a system can take all the possible variables into account when we, as humans, cannot know everything that can, does, and could happen?
But do we even need to account for the 1-in-a-million occurrence?
Is there not a point than an occurrence become so rare that accounting for it becomes harder than fixing the root issue?
I?m not sure yet. I posted the proposal for feedback to learn where the issues I haven?t encountered are.
What are your thoughts on how to keep the sting I?ve proposed, but give the ?right to leave??
My skill level or the skill level of another player in this thread is not at issue here, however.
I will say this one final time: The only place there is an issue with my tactics causing a problem for the team is in the final chamber of IGE. My first time through on IGN showed me I needed two rifles that could snipe. Until I had them, I did not go back. I've only played IG, maybe, 5 times, but I could give tutorials on the others. Even so, I still know the basics on IG. With that said:
Let's keep the discussion in this thread on the proposal and ideas so they can be refined.
Personal attacks, against anyone, have no place during a brainstorming session.
That being said the biggest problem I see are certain unnamed fleets, C**** Objectors, (since we can't mention names here) and their minions AFKing in Starbase Incursion and others just to ruin the game play. Unfortunately these missions are also time gated for the better marks and have a 30 minute cooldown to repeat. So if you get one of these losers on your map and don't leave your screwed. I automatically leave the team every time someone from this particular fleet is in the mission and I explain to the group why I'm out of there. I actually keep a sticky note on my desktop to cut and paste the text into the chat. This happens at least once per 2hr event.
I'm a lifetime member and have paid for this game many times over. I don't agree with a leaver penalty for reasons like what I just discussed. I do think F2P has increased these problems but penalties aren't going to stop someone from just creating another toon or F2P account. They've made it so easy to level up in this game you could be a VA in days.
Lifetime Sub since June 2010
I was with 2 other people from my fleet earlier today in Infected Ground Elite. The entire time we felt like we were carrying the other two people through the mission. In the final chamber, the word came down "Jumpers go." In 5 seconds I realized no one was jumping. Trusing my fleet members to lay down better cover fire, I called upon the two others and started jumping. They were told SEVEN times to stop clearing the room and jump over to me. They failed to stop clearing the room, stood there like derps, and the drones respwned. After we all had to respawn, they wondered why the three of us were so upset. And than said "I don't jump." If that was the case, SAY SO when you are called up to do so!
We left and took the penalty.
I admit and agree, SOMETHING has to be put in place so when players find themselves in the situation I (and my fleetmates) found ourselves in, we could leave.
I am open to suggestions on how a system to allow for that while minimizing the cheating could be put in place.
An off-the-cuff idea is to require a minimum of 20 EDC to be earned on the normal varient of the mission before Elite is unlocked in addition to being Lvl 50.
I'm open to other sugestions.
There's no cheating when you leave a STF. Now you start to understand why any kind of penalty is a pain for fair and good players. Carrying others is fine as long as they don't prevent you from completing the mission, but most of the time they do and won't read what you told in chat.
There's one easy and simple solution: no leaver penalty at all. Everyone is happy. Players with a high rate of leavers will start considering that they do something wrong and good players will be able to leave when they know that the stf can't be completed. Because with some experience, you know when it's not possible after 2-3 minutes or so. The leaver penalty is just a waste of time for everyone.
I see nothing wrong saying pugs you'll leave if they don't listen to your advices because STFs require a high level of technical knowledge.
God, lvl 60 CW. 17k.
Instead of making pointless rules that are too complicated to understand, just get over yourself and accept that public stfs fail most of the time. From my understanding there is private elite channels where you can arrange games with the best. Cryptic aren't going to start banning people, (potential sources of cash), from the game just because of you and people like you so grow up and accept that it happens.
It's not an attack it's a strong suggestion
1. OP still enjoys STFs, and has not realized them for the boring-TRIBBLE, useless time sinks that they are. OP even claims to take his time in STFs seriously. The rest of us take things like jobs and family seriously, and don't emotionally invest ourselves in a grind game collectiong fictional virtual widgets.
2. OP seems to think that Cryptic is in any way able to implement such a convoluted set of procedures without TRIBBLE it up. STFs already glitch in such a fashion where a player can receive the current leaver penalty simply by collecting their loot and clicking 'Leave Map.' Suddenly, STF timeout. OP expects these same developers to implement complicated rules concerning multiple punishments, based on how and when someone leaves. Meantime, we're still having to readjust our zoom when moving from ground to space.
MR. Mattimeo, If you are going to try quoting me, actually quote me. Don't try and put your inaccurate spin on my words.
This is what I said:
Family, jobs, recreation are all important. Not just game time, but our time as a whole. Hence, "we take our time seriously."
You dont take your time seriously enough to teach newbies how to play properly XD
The entire Expulsion timetable has been reworked.
You have spent way to much time writing and thinking about this leaver penalty that nobody supports to say that you take your time seriously...
No to ALL of your suggestions.
Thier time is too limited to mess with the stupid TRIBBLE you suggest.
Find a group or deal with pugginess.
1. there would be a very good system that could detect problems with your connection (because i already got a penalty for that in the past)
2. there would be a fix for all those STFs suffering from no "leave system" button that pops up like 2 minutes after the STF is complete
the first is not so common to me anymore as i have a 100mbit internet now but the second is a problem that everyone knows already and its not like this bug exists since the last patch. it exists for a couple of months already and still not fixed.
I agree that those are issues. But no one has answered my repeted question:
How often do either of those happen to you while you are in an STF or Fleet Mark mission?
(In this case: within a 4 day period)
If I don't know how frequently it is happening to other players, I don't know how heavily to wiegh that issue.
Create Penalty accolades, these accolades are to keep track can not be completed
1 will keep track of your early leaver penalties
this penalty will give you a debuff, the debuff will reduce your dilithium rewards
on all borg stf missions/quests and reduce your drop rate
so every time you leave the debuff will be doubled.
the only way to remove the debuff is when you finish an stf mission with out
leaving,
2 accolade to keep track of finished stf missions
but as i said just a wild idea.
You'll notice that I'm quoting you now. Not trying to quote you, but actually quoting you. There's a button for it, and it's not difficult. Which would lead a rational individual to believe that I had no intention of quoting you before; which I did not. When I am speaking to you, I will address you, as I am doing now.
As it is, my 'spin' is hardly inaccurate. You don't value your liesure time at all; this thread makes that readily apparent. If your time was valuable to anyone, most of all yourself, you wouldn't spend it tilting at windmills, attempting to garner support for Cryptic to enact what would very likely be a broken version of your ridiculously convoluted leaver penalty system. You wouldn't be bawwing to your heart's content about people 'ruining' an ultimately pointless leisure activity. STFs are enjoyable at times; they are also repetitive, tiresome, and rapidly grow boring. They are far from the end-all, be-all of the STO experience. It boggles the mind that anyone puts so much emotional investment into gaining widgets that ultimately are doled out based upon random numbers alone. You've managed to take something that's supposed to be a distraction and turn it into a source of irritation and concern.
Furthermore, you choose to play pickup games. The nonsense associated with them is the penalty that you pay for doing so. There is absolutely nothing that Cryptic can implement, to include your overly complicated leaver penalty, that will remove the nonsense from PuG queues. Accounts are free; multiple accounts are available for anyone who chooses to sign up. Griefers will always grief, the willfully ignorant will remain so, and those who do not care about running an STF properly will continue to not care. They'll simply log in to their other account, and continue their shenanigans. And ultimately, they'll still be having more fun than you appear to be.
Agreed!
Taking it too far buddy.
To those who think maybe it is too harsh, It takes FIVE times to be the first to leave an STF in order to get the 24 hour suspension. To earn a lockout is a LOT of times. If your connection is actually bad enough to cause you to incur a suspension, you probably shouldn't be in STF anyways because you are probably making it really hard on the rest of the players making up for your absence and/or delayed reactions due to epic lag.
I personally would actually want the penalties to be more severe. Think about it this way. If a person only need the optional from an STF, and someone screws that up quickly, they can leave and incur a penalty. The current penalty is a one hour ban, the same length of time you will have to wait AFTER a completed run. For the person who isn't after tech or salvage, but only the accolade, a one hour ban starting instantly after the optional fails, is a better deal than trudging through the entire run, THEN having to wait an hour. (this occurred to me during the time I was grinding IGE for the tech and wondered "why leave when you can still get the loot?") The answer was, "Because I can get another try at the optional faster if I quit now."
Therefore I would notch the hurt UP a bit on the penalties. (I would suggest the first penalty be a two hour ban from only STF missions, and then scale it from there)
On the flip side, however, there should also be a way out for a player that gets stuck with a REALLY bad crew that has NO chance of beating the scenario. If you started the death count from the start of the mission, you could add the same kind of "right to leave" situation that you proposed for boss fights, to the mission in general. For the person who really does only need the optional, if an hour after the mission started, it becomes clear that the current group doesn't stand a chance, it really stinks to be literally trapped in the instance. (I would suggest 15 deaths before the boss room is sufficient to realize it's not going to happen) In my opinion, even though it's called "optional" the fact that the accolade counts for something makes it legit to be overly concerned about succeeding at it. Part of the blame for rage leaving is often a crew that simply refuses to TRY for it.*
My only other comment is that IMO the second person to leave shouldn't be penalized if no replacement has been slotted after three minutes. In most runs if you lose three minutes of having five people, the run will probably fail anyways.
So that's my input on what to me seems a really good functional proposal for limiting early leavers in STFS!
* (OPTIONAL PERSONAL THOUGHT ON STFs IN GENERAL) I myself have manged to collect all the tech I needed and complete all the optionals on both my Fed and KDF toons, so I am pretty much retired from STFs, but my experiences there almost made me hate this game, so I feel this thread is very much worth being a part of. The concept of STF is so cool, especially being able to team up KDF and Federation toons together. The missions are well thought out, and a great deal of fun with a team that cares enough to play together. The pressure of needing the tech or accolade, sometimes results in people (like myself at one point) who are doing the run, not to enjoy the particulars of it, but just to get to the drop bag at the end. Perhaps the solution to the whole issue, is to slightly tweak the reward system. Develop a scoring system for the STF (simple timer based score would be enough really) and let that score affect the drop rate. My idea on fixing the drops follows:
If the run is successfully completed, the timer score now comes into play. If the main timer goal is met, every player will earn either tech or salvage (perhaps 20% likely to get tech and 80% salvage, but maybe that's too easy to get tech). If the main timer goal is not met, no salvage or tech is won and instead is replaced my 5 extra EDCs. The QUALITY of the tech/salvage would be determined by the optional. If the optional was successful, tech/salvage will be prototype, and if not, it will be rare.
This system would give incentive to every player to try as hard as they can to succeed, not only at the part that matters to them, but also at the part that matters to the others on the team.
On Sept 26:
And on Sept 29th, I have asked for the figures, even if they were not exact, you see mentioned above.
Considering that NO ONE has given me any figures to take into consideration. I am forced to conclude, once again, that disconnects will not be a major problem and that any penalty because of a disconnect will be a mere inconvenience.
The matter of disconnects is closed.
__________________________________________________________________________
On to other matters:
~The length of time for an AFK?er to be considered officially AFK and to bring up the voting pop-up.
~The length of time for a coward to be considered a coward and to bring up the voting pop-up.
~What triggers the ?Right-to-Leave? vote?
Regarding R2L, it has been proposed that after a certain number of team wide deaths before the boss chamber would trigger a voting pop-up. The number proposed was 15. While I have my concerns, I do like that idea. My concern is this: what if there you have 4 really good STF vets, and 1 that?s new, but is listening and trying to learn?
That newbie used to be me at one point. Yes, I was dying frequently. But I was being revived on scene, I was being taught the tactics, failing at almost every turn, and burning through my regen devices. But those 4 vets dragged my behind along as I bumbled my way through, but I was learning. (And this was before the penalty existed.)
At the end of my first STF, I?d adapted my tactics and was able to help kill Tosk. There were 2 Rare Armor techs given out, another got Rare Salvage, the 4th guy got Common Salvage, and I got a Rare Salvage. (At the time I didn?t realize how unusual 5 loot bags like that were.) I rushed back to DS9 and used that rare salvage to get a Mk XI Antiproton Sniper Rifle that I used for a long time.
I learned so much in that first STF mission I ran, more so because of my TRIBBLE-ups than my successes. But that?s how I?ve always been. Had there been a R2L system that was X-amount of deaths team wide, we probably never would have made it to Tosk. Now the point of that reminiscing was to illustrate why I believe that one team member should not be allowed to accumulate all of the deaths needed to bring up right to leave.
I know when weaker members that die frequently on teams I?ve been on, it causes veterans to get taken out. So, I would recommend, if the number needed is 15 deaths before the boss chamber, that one player can only add 10 deaths to the number needed.
Pardon me if I'm late in getting this, but I am not under your authority. You cannot tell me what to do. I appreciate you for attempting to troll your own members of your fleet, but you must realize that this is against the rule.
So what if you're a horrible dictator that will end up being executed, I am not your lackey and will never be anyone's lackey.
You've made an enemy today. :mad:
Edit: I don't troll STFs. I'm not very good at them and try my best. I've only played Elite STFs, so that might be the reason why.