Simple improvement using existing resources and parameters: While the system checks to make sure the user isn't using a shuttle for STF, check that the user's ship and toon have no damage or injuries.
I was thinking about that last night after getting offline. Such a system would be beneficial for people in the que and to people trying to que since they'll not need to respawn as often.
I thought about the follwing numbers that would prevent a player from entering an STF or Fleet mark mission:
3 or more Minor Injuries
2 Minor and 1 or more Major Injuries
2 or more Major Injuries
1 or more Critical Injuries
Inability to que will generate a message telling the player to go to Sickbay or the Ship and and Heal/Repair before queing becomes available.
Note: Meeting any one of those requirements will prevent queing.
Once in, however, no amount of injuries will result in an auto-kick.
I was thinking about that last night after getting offline. Such a system would be beneficial for people in the que and to people trying to que since they'll not need to respawn as often.
I thought about the follwing numbers that would prevent a player from entering an STF or Fleet mark mission:
3 or more Minor Injuries
2 Minor and 1 or more Major Injuries
2 or more Major Injuries
1 or more Critical Injuries
Inability to que will generate a message telling the player to go to Sickbay or the Ship and and Heal/Repair before queing becomes available.
Note: Meeting any one of those requirements will prevent queing.
Once in, however, no amount of injuries will result in an auto-kick.
Why the complicated system? No damage/injuries means NO DAMAGE/INJURIES. I always have a stack of each repair part in bank/inventory. If I go down and am waiting to respawn, I pull up the paper doll (the "U" button) and fix damage/injuries immediately. It is almost inconcievable that someone would run a whole round without repairing themselves. Using damaged equipment is rude thing to do to your teammates.
Kick voting is crucial. It is not a matter of gear.. you can do elite STFs using white quality mk 10 equipment.
Tactics IS the problem. [There comes a] point that [a] player is literally sabotaging the efforts of the team and will be rewarded in the end for doing so.
A kick vote will enable the team to knock that player off the team before he can continue sabotaging the team effort. I assure you that after being kicked a few times and not getting any rewards the griefer stops doing it (so he can get loot) and the clueless new guy that doesnt read will start wondering wth this is about and see whats going on in the chat window.
I've yet to meet a truly 'new guy' to elite STFs that is unwilling to listen and learn how to win. They want loot and they want to win. [...] Those that obviously just dont give a TRIBBLE about optional and simply kill everything to get the 1100 dilithium at the end as quickly as possible I do have a problem with. I want to be able to kick them out ...with the consensus of the other team-mates.
Please forgive the editing, I only wanted to highlight the most important bits.
After further consideration of the odds regarding offending another player and randomly running into them in an STF of FM mission while they are with their friends. Such an occurrence seems as likely as needing to reboot your computer after a server disconnect. So like the "reboot after disconnect", "kicked by griefer and buddies" is too rare to worry about.
I would however recommend that there be a list of reasons for kicking a person. This reason would be made known to the player kicked, but who voted for what would remain anonymous.
Such a read out would look as follows (reasons to be discussed in other posts):
AFK -- x4
-or-
Failure to read Team Channel* -- x3
Failure to support the Team -- x1
*I would like to make note of an error in my game regarding Team Channel. After multiple file verifications and 2 reinstallations, my Team Channel is still heavily gltiched. I do have a ticket for support in to Cryptic, but have not gotten a response yet. The glitch will cause one of three issues: no issues at all, inability to talk in Channel (other channels fully fully functional), inability to talk or read Team Channel (other channels fully fully functional). I've been focusing on visual cues to lead me when the TC is down. I'd hate to NOT know what needs doing though.
Why the complicated system? No damage/injuries means NO DAMAGE/INJURIES. I always have a stack of each repair part in bank/inventory. If I go down and am waiting to respawn, I pull up the paper doll (the "U" button) and fix damage/injuries immediately. It is almost inconcievable that someone would run a whole round without repairing themselves. Using damaged equipment is rude thing to do to your teammates.
I've racked up a few injuries before and qued up before I realized how many I'd accumulated in the previous mission. I'm far better now at looking above my chat window when I blow up or drop to know if I need to heal before respawning.
But you are right that it is not hard to go get to a shipyard or sickbay to heal. And from a programming pov, zero injuries would be easier to program.
I'm not sure what the big issue with kicking and banning heavy repeat offenders is. I disagree with disconnects causing penalties, my internet will occasionally drop for 2-3 minutes which is enough to pick a penalty in, its less than once a month though and rarely in an STF. Some people have connection issues.
If anything we should be coming down harder on the leachers/afkers. They abuse the game to gain resources without doing anything, do you REALLY think they are spending cash in the z store? Of course they aren't. There is ZERO loss to kicking these players out. They leach dilithium from STFs while afk, then they trade it in for zen.
Vote to kick is abusive, we can vote for reputation, that way people can know what we are dealing with. They could add in reputation filters/limits to the queue options. It should work like a e-bay reputation system, the old ones fade away. We can vote for AFK, this could pop up an AFK respond timer on the AFK player and boot them with penalties. People will horrible reps will be teamed with others of the same reps or have serious difficulty playing until they are forced to become less ignorant.
Any sort of AFK pop-up should pause the instance. This will ensure that voting will not cause the rest of the team to be pummeled by the borg or whoever while they vote and possibly lose the optional that way.
As well, as stop auto-firing beams. >.> I just thought of a cruiser, parked in front of a Nanite Gen, blasting on auto fire and not being able to de-target the Gen at 10% because the player was voting.
Please forgive the editing, I only wanted to highlight the most important bits.
Not prob at all
I would however recommend that there be a list of reasons for kicking a person. This reason would be made known to the player kicked, but who voted for what would remain anonymous.
Thats a good idea in principle but hard to do mid-combat in an stf. If perhaps it was a pop up option once the mission is over and the kicked out player receives the notification as an email...that would work.
*I would like to make note of an error in my game regarding Team Channel. After multiple file verifications and 2 reinstallations, my Team Channel is still heavily gltiched. I do have a ticket for support in to Cryptic, but have not gotten a response yet. The glitch will cause one of three issues: no issues at all, inability to talk in Channel (other channels fully fully functional), inability to talk or read Team Channel (other channels fully fully functional). I've been focusing on visual cues to lead me when the TC is down. I'd hate to NOT know what needs doing though.
believe it or not, this is a server side glitch. It was first seen in tribble many months ago and went into holodeck with a patch (after they ignored the bug report on it of course).
Workaround is simple: while in 'team' tab (if you've made a tab specifically for team chat) switch to ZONE channel, type anything and send it ...and then switch it back to team chat. The bug is that when you switch from one channel to another or one instance to another the server either does not add you to the team channel or kicks you out of it and doesnt put you back in (in the case of when you switch tabs/channels). You have to do it manually.
XD
cmdrskyfaller, you must have been working at typing up your post when I posted my post right above your's regarding how to handle the voting pop-up.
There just needs to be a vote to kick from group system in place other MMOs have this why this game doesn't yet. Considering the amount of afkers, intentional griefing, and the other amounts of bs people have to deal with in pugs due to incompetence and dickish behavior, a vote to kick system would seem a lot better than the penalties tbh.
Increasing the penalty just runs the risk of hurting innocent players falling victim to disconnects/lags. It would also be useless against serial leavers because they will just learn to game the system. It happens in every game where there is such a system. Vote to kick is too prone to abuse. Players could kick for any number of stupid reasons. (Example: I don't like the color you picked for your uniform, I want you out of the match now so I don't have to look at that ugly color combination.) There are just too many possible ways for this to be used as a grief tool.
Auto-AFK kicking is also dangerous. There have been several times where I or other players have hit lag spikes (more common on cure ground) where the player either can't move or they rubber band back and forth. If you have ever experienced one of these, then you know that it is impossible to move or attack effectively. While rare, it would be very unfair to penalize players for this issue that they have no control over by adding a AFK kicker. Almost every time this happens the player is back as soon as the spike ends. If they do disconnect they usually have to reload the game due to the "account server could not be started" bug. It would penalize the whole team if there were a 2-5 minute auto-kick because there would be no way of knowing when it is or is not legit AFK. And the game wouldn't be able to read chat to see if there is a reason for AFK (phone call, etc.). You also run the risk of kicking players that are just changing equipment if you kick players with two minutes out of combat. There are a large number of scenarios that would need to be taken into account.
Rather than increasing the current penalty or adding a vote to kick system, why not add a vote to leave/end match option. If a player wishes to leave a match because the team obviously won't be able to finish the STF, then they should be able to do so if the team is in agreement. If 3/5 of the players agree to end, players can leave without penalty. If a player does not vote within 10 minutes of the poll's initiation, then their vote is automatically counted as a "yes" for leaving. A player can only initiate the poll once (twice?) during any STF in order to prevent abuse. This would eliminate the AFK problem due to the auto-vote and it would also limit leaving. Players would take the attitude of, why leave with a penalty if I can leave without one.
wouldnt it be better to just have a player
pay a penalty fee for leaving early?
have that player sent to jail facility 4028
and they cant leave till they pay a penalty fee
like let say 100k fleet credits. if they cant pay
they have to wait and stay in jail for 2 hours
account wide across all characters.
just a thought everyone asking for a change
so why not make it huge penalty
and if those that get sent to jail complain
well let them complain lol...
Why not the death penalty for STF leavers? OP you're completely ridiculous.
I might agree with more harsh rules if I get a way to force pugs to follow my advices to complete the mission, otherwise it makes no sense at all. Or a chatacter delete if you don't listen to my maco elite commander commands in a STF.
And since it's not acceptable either, I simply suggest that any leaver penalty is removed from the game. This way, everyone is happy. Veterans won't have to endure morons not listening to any tells and advices and noobs will have the possibility to see how hard they suck without the support of veterans and may start to understand that something is wrongwith their game style.
Increasing the penalty just runs the risk of hurting innocent players falling victim to disconnects/lags. It would also be useless against serial leavers because they will just learn to game the system.
I agree that innocents people will get his with infractions, but the catch is, we already are! I've been in Cure Spcae with 3 people left on multiple occasions and was going to be penalized for leaving. My system lifts the penalty for that 5 minutes after the 2nd player leaves.
So, part of this discussion is to work out a new, shorter length of time until infractions are expunged so the serial leavers will still feel the sting, while those erroneously given out don't add up to sting innocent players.
(I'm sorry that innocent players will continue to be hit, my system will help minimize it. That said, laws irl do the same thing: catch people they don't intend to catch in their nets. To fix the problem to not catch innocents lets those who deserve to be caught get free. The only option is to adjust the punishment so innocents get a slap on the wrist while the big sting is reserved for those who deserve it. I am completely fine with being slapped a few time by my own system if it stings those that need stinging. There's plenty of other things to do outside the PVE que.)
Vote to kick is too prone to abuse. Players could kick for any number of stupid reasons. [...] There are just too many possible ways for this to be used as a grief tool.
I agree, it could be abused. But it would take "3 of 4" or "2 of 3" votes to kick a person, "Other" will not be a reason. It must be a valid reason that impedes the success of the mission. I don't think that people will agree to kick a decent player because one person wants to kick another because of a stupid reason.
Auto-AFK kicking is also dangerous. There have been several times where I or other players have hit lag spikes (more common on cure ground) where the player either can't move or they rubber band back and forth. [...] If they do disconnect they usually have to reload the game due to the "account server could not be started" bug. It would penalize the whole team if there were a 2-5 minute auto-kick because there would be no way of knowing when it is or is not legit AFK. [...] You also run the risk of kicking players that are just changing equipment if you kick players with two minutes out of combat.
The AFK kick system is currently being refined to include a pop-up that would pause the mission and allow players to vote on if a person really is AFK or showing cowardice.
Cowardice would be defined as controlling your ship to avoid the AFK but not logging any damage being given or received for a given amount of time. That amount of time needs discussion to determine exactly how long it should be so legit in game things such as equipment changes and lag spikes are accommodated. (If lag spikes are causing too many auto-kicks, the outcry should force Cryptic to do something about it.)
[...] why not add a vote to leave/end match option. If a player wishes to leave a match because the team obviously won't be able to finish the STF, then they should be able to do so if the team is in agreement. [...] A player can only initiate the poll once (twice?) during any STF in order to prevent abuse. This would eliminate the AFK problem due to the auto-vote and it would also limit leaving.
The AFK vote system, if timed right, will not create a vote for legit reasons to be out of the battle. Also, I believe that if each player has the ability to pause the match once as a way out, that's too many pauses in the match that breaks the rhythm of the match. It would be like trying to play hockey, american football, football/soccer, or any other fast paced sport and having game stopping penalties called every minute or so.
I've been hit with the STF leaver penalty myself. Gotten stuck in more than one hopeless STF due to other leavers, and tired of waiting for the system to queue someone else in, had it pop up when I left at the end of the match after getting my loot, had it toss me one for getting disconnected, even got one for being queued into a match after it was over, and people were hanging around on the map goofing off. I left, bang, penalty.
That being said, I have no problem with a leaver penalty. I hate rage quitters and griefers who leave just to bother others. I dislike newbies who leave, instead of stick around and let you help them learn. I'd personally rather babystep someone through learning the mission, than have them quit because they feel they can't handle it.
But the sort of proposals in this thread border on ridiculous. Account locks? Deletions? Inability to create new characters? Do some of you folks really invest so much of your life into less than a dozen boring, repetitive missions? If people leaving puts you this off-kilter that you want to dole out punishment over a computer game, then maybe you should ease up a touch. Read a magazine. Play a foundry mission. Play a different game for an hour or so. I hear Minesweeper is particularly engaging.
Leaver penalties are bad enough as it is already, no need to make it worse. If anything they should be more lenient on letting you leave without penalty like when there are only 4 people in the STF or once nanite spheres have managed to heal a transformer in infected or once a probe makes it through the portal in Khitomer accord.
There are times when you have a group of complete tools and you shouldn't be forced to stay once they mess things up.
I've been hit with the STF leaver penalty myself. Gotten stuck in more than one hopeless STF due to other leavers, and tired of waiting for the system to queue someone else in, had it pop up when I left at the end of the match after getting my loot, had it toss me one for getting disconnected, even got one for being queued into a match after it was over, and people were hanging around on the map goofing off. I left, bang, penalty.
That being said, I have no problem with a leaver penalty. I hate rage quitters and griefers who leave just to bother others. I dislike newbies who leave, instead of stick around and let you help them learn. I'd personally rather babystep someone through learning the mission, than have them quit because they feel they can't handle it.
But the sort of proposals in this thread border on ridiculous. Account locks? Deletions? Inability to create new characters? Do some of you folks really invest so much of your life into less than a dozen boring, repetitive missions? If people leaving puts you this off-kilter that you want to dole out punishment over a computer game, then maybe you should ease up a touch. Read a magazine. Play a foundry mission. Play a different game for an hour or so. I hear Minesweeper is particularly engaging.
first off. this supports the leaver penalty. but ALSO makes it higher and stricter. for you. who got disconnected.. thats a ONE time thing.. as for people hanging around on the map afterwards? there IS a timer before they get ejected from the game.. you clicked the leave button did you not? had you have the patience to wait for the timer to die out you wouldnt have been hit with the penalty
Secondly. its not a account deletion.. or an account termination.. as you said. its just a game.. MAKE A NEW DAMN CHARACTER.. simple solution for a simple person.. such as yourself.
Thirdly.. there are people who go into the STFS just to leave it or mess it up for the rest and best of us. Tell me.. would you rather have to deal with pugs who just go into the match just to jack it up then please.. be my guest.. il send butts from dental over to ya to troll your stfs.
Fourth. I am the kind of girl. and yes I am a girl. who goes into missions with people who know what they are doing.. hence why I do elite missions. ELITE MISSIONS are not for training wheels.. that is what normal is for.. and if you cant do that. read the damn wiki or watch the walkthroughs on youtube.
Fifth. just because you get one penalty. it only stays on your character for x number of days before it gets removed. its just like a drivers license.. the more infractions.. the stronger the penalty until it gets revoked. And after a few years the points come off your license for good driving. just like after the number of days after the penalty.. your points will be removed
Sixth. please learn to read
Seventh. Enjoy my responce
Eighth . Dont reply to logic. it will only come to bite you in your rear
first off. this supports the leaver penalty. but ALSO makes it higher and stricter. for you. who got disconnected.. thats a ONE time thing.. as for people hanging around on the map afterwards? there IS a timer before they get ejected from the game.. you clicked the leave button did you not? had you have the patience to wait for the timer to die out you wouldnt have been hit with the penalty
Secondly. its not a account deletion.. or an account termination.. as you said. its just a game.. MAKE A NEW DAMN CHARACTER.. simple solution for a simple person.. such as yourself.
Thirdly.. there are people who go into the STFS just to leave it or mess it up for the rest and best of us. Tell me.. would you rather have to deal with pugs who just go into the match just to jack it up then please.. be my guest.. il send butts from dental over to ya to troll your stfs.
Fourth. I am the kind of girl. and yes I am a girl. who goes into missions with people who know what they are doing.. hence why I do elite missions. ELITE MISSIONS are not for training wheels.. that is what normal is for.. and if you cant do that. read the damn wiki or watch the walkthroughs on youtube.
Fifth. just because you get one penalty. it only stays on your character for x number of days before it gets removed. its just like a drivers license.. the more infractions.. the stronger the penalty until it gets revoked. And after a few years the points come off your license for good driving. just like after the number of days after the penalty.. your points will be removed
Sixth. please learn to read
Seventh. Enjoy my responce
Eighth . Dont reply to logic. it will only come to bite you in your rear
Nice wall of text. And poor grammar. It was rather enjoyable.
Everyone has to learn somewhere. There's precious little learning going on in Normals.
As for the rest? Again, you should probably relax, have a beer, and enjoy the game. It is just a game, after all. If you have time to sit in front of it, you've already chosen to waste time, rather than pursue more useful activities. If some griefer ruins your 400th run of ISE, you're not exactly losing the opportunity to do something fantastic, since you were already wasting time to begin with.
Some of you people take this far, far too seriously.
Some of you people take this far, far too seriously.
We take the game seriously because we take our time seriously. The need to replay a mission hundreds of times for a combination of loot and accolades can get frustrtating.
This isn't a case of, "Oh I love this mission so much I want play it over and over and over and rage at anyone who #&@^$ it up!" :P
It's a case of, -_-" "I still haven't gotten that piece of tech or that accolade. Who's on I can rely on... 2 others, okay well let's do this." and one of the other two my team joins yells out "Leroooooy Jeeeeenkins!"
The problem of STF leaving is a serious one I will concur........But you are trying to have implemented very UNREALISTIC rules.
The problem is not of chronic leavers leaving to spite other players....the problem is STFS in a pug environment force players who are more , for lack of a better term, more seasoned to have to endure stupid, silly, assinine, tactics that are time consuming and often end in a complete failutre for all who are in the stf.
People are angry, myself included, that we are forced to endure really stupid people in this game of all skill levels.
the easy fix is for cryptic to keep the current leaver penalty in affect and all is well......the better, more proactive, if Cryptic were to implement it, would be to have 2 sets of queus one for anyone and one for elite players.......
The ANYONE pug would have no penalties for leaving...come and go and begone if you want.......
The elite penalty PUG would also be there and would have very strict rules concerning leaving to be set by the devs and their concensus, hopeful based on players input......
The rewards would be the same....nothing elite accept for better and more strict guidelines to be followed.......with the promise of qualified players and an easy (subjective) stf run
I, for one, would frequent the ELITE queue with harsh rules because I believe the players would flock to there wou have skills in the game.........
In closing I feel this is a compromise I am willing to accept But i am sure it will be rejected........
That being said I would favor removing it entirely over any of this......
And lastly.........get some friends....play with them...then this does not happen.....
I work odd hours and my friends are on at diff times so i am forced, if i want to srf, to pug......
Today we fight the GAULS......monstrous and HAIRY beyond reason.
Intersting concept adabisi; two sets of punishment, one for Normal and one for Elite.
If you want harsh penalies for Elite STF's, than my proposal should fit the bill.
I could work on a reduced penalty system for Normal that would include reduced lockout times by 50%, require double the infractions to get suspended, and make every expulsion beyond 4 expulsions equal to the 4th expulsion penatly.
The System is fine the way it is if you do not like the STFs then don't play STFs That simple Stop Pugging Find a Team and stick with the same team.
Just like the other day me a friends did 15 CSE in a row with out a timer be cause There was no ******** and complaining.
Learn to do STFs Correctly then there will not be a issue.Learn to do what the Op says in the STFs KA if every body listens then there should not be a issue.The only time i have a issue in my STFs is when people do not listen or do not know what to do.
CSE MRRMLL is good but not the fast way I get may be 4 to 5 mins.
CSE RRMMLL is the fastest way for the timer This way i get 5 to 7 mins.
KASE One person on right watching probs one of left rest take out the gens and gate on the left side first.If you do this the right way you should have 3 to 5 mins left on the clock.Do not worry about shield Max out your weapons power settings.This is way most people go with Fleet Patrol have a good mix of DPS and healing.
Weapons you should use is STFs are regular weapons not borg weapons they suck in STFs Go with either Disruptors or Tetyron they Both destroy shields pretty quickly.
It really should not be a problem to complete STFs Just stop pugging.Plane and simple Find a team and try to stick with the same people .
These ideas that are poping up should not be in the game main reason they would most likely get abused.If you learn how to do STFs correctly then there should not be a issue.The Ignore Button is all ready abused like crazy people ignore others just for the dumbest things.
And as for people leaving the STFs there is a Bug that auto boots you out of no where if you are in space If this happens just leave STF quickly and then restart the game again.
And as for the needed people there is nothing that can not be done about that every body needs now.
The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.
We take the game seriously because we take our time seriously. The need to replay a mission hiundreds of times for a combination of loot and accolades can get frustrtating.
Hey you know what? Get better at it and veterans won't leave because you screwed the mission up.
I have a rather low leaver rate in my own pug stfs, probably because i'm one of those veterans who enjoys some training to keep his high level of game abilities in such instances and I can carry several burdens in a team. If you have a high level of quit in your STFs then there must be a problem with YOU. I do leave when pugs are hopeless. And I think I have the right to leave with no consequence since i often do my best to make them understand what's wrong with them. When they ignore tells and messages i quit. Without rage but i leave. I have no time to waste with noobs either.
I have both mk 12 sets and all accolades on several chars. So I don't mind, I just pug because I like these missions. Just don't waste my time and take advices seriously when you get one.
I'm always saying at the beginning of Infected Space: "Don't take the Nanite Generators down below 10% until all four are at 10%!"
On Cure Space, "Take out those BoP's on your way to the shipyards, I'll cover and heal the Kang."
On Khitomer Accord Space, "You 4 head left, I'll cover the right gate, and stop those probes!"
On Infected Ground, I admit, I'm still learning the finer nuances of tactics while fighting in the final chamber, but I know the basics. (My first run through taught me I need two sniper rifles, not a sniper and a pulsewave, I didn't go back until I had a mk XII Battle Rifle and Mk XII Tetryon Sniper)
On Cure, I'm coordinating the transformers, guarding of, and assault on turrets. Once at Armek, I've guaged people's abilities and begin coordinating the attack.
On Khitomer Ground, I'm always the one coordinating between the Power units and the Room.
I'm not a perfect STF'er, I know I have more to learn, but I'm not a bad one either.
diogene0-sensei, how about a few lessons sometimes? :cool:
A) I've been disconnected, we all have. But honestly, how many players are in STF's so frequently that the occasional disconnect will cause a highly inconvenient penalty to be incurred?
I know the number I would incur will not hamper my enjoyment of the game. During cooldown I have other stuff to do: story, other toons, grinding for commodities, foundry, non-STO stuff... So, if I have a longer period I can't do STF's or Fleet Mark events it's not the end of my gameplay until the lockout is over. I doubt it's the end of your's as well, thus invalidating that argument.
Fees are something I am considering in the form of a buyout. The penalty of 8 infractions would cost more to buyout than 2 infractions. The penalty of 2 suspensions with 4 additional incursions more than 1 suspension with 7 additional incursions.
If I do, create a buyout table of costs, I would institute a change to the character deletion and account ban in that those penalties only come up if a player buys out the first 4 expulsions. If not, the penalty for the 4th is used for the 5th, 6th, 7th, and upwards.
C) Voting. Yes voting can be abused. But the chat logs that a person kicked will recieve, can be used to file a report IF the kick is an unjust kick. In which case, the kickers get in trouble.
Re-read the section on AFK.
D) If a player is sitting there with weak weapons, it could be because the player is putting the effort into defensive gear, threat gen, shield buffs, zone denial, and heals. So perhaps, heal points used on self and others should be in the equation.
E) It's impossible to create a system that can account for EVERY variable.
To say nothing should be done because of that, is an invalid argument.
This is the stupidest proposal ever. Sorry I'm going to leave as long as there are griefers in this game and/or people who refuse to listen to more experienced players. In fact I'm opposed to a leaver's penalty all together. There should be a punishment for stupidity in STF. How about this? How about we ban you OP?
Comments
I was thinking about that last night after getting offline. Such a system would be beneficial for people in the que and to people trying to que since they'll not need to respawn as often.
I thought about the follwing numbers that would prevent a player from entering an STF or Fleet mark mission:
3 or more Minor Injuries
2 Minor and 1 or more Major Injuries
2 or more Major Injuries
1 or more Critical Injuries
Inability to que will generate a message telling the player to go to Sickbay or the Ship and and Heal/Repair before queing becomes available.
Note: Meeting any one of those requirements will prevent queing.
Once in, however, no amount of injuries will result in an auto-kick.
Why the complicated system? No damage/injuries means NO DAMAGE/INJURIES. I always have a stack of each repair part in bank/inventory. If I go down and am waiting to respawn, I pull up the paper doll (the "U" button) and fix damage/injuries immediately. It is almost inconcievable that someone would run a whole round without repairing themselves. Using damaged equipment is rude thing to do to your teammates.
After further consideration of the odds regarding offending another player and randomly running into them in an STF of FM mission while they are with their friends. Such an occurrence seems as likely as needing to reboot your computer after a server disconnect. So like the "reboot after disconnect", "kicked by griefer and buddies" is too rare to worry about.
I would however recommend that there be a list of reasons for kicking a person. This reason would be made known to the player kicked, but who voted for what would remain anonymous.
Such a read out would look as follows (reasons to be discussed in other posts):
AFK -- x4
-or-
Failure to read Team Channel* -- x3
Failure to support the Team -- x1
*I would like to make note of an error in my game regarding Team Channel. After multiple file verifications and 2 reinstallations, my Team Channel is still heavily gltiched. I do have a ticket for support in to Cryptic, but have not gotten a response yet. The glitch will cause one of three issues: no issues at all, inability to talk in Channel (other channels fully fully functional), inability to talk or read Team Channel (other channels fully fully functional). I've been focusing on visual cues to lead me when the TC is down. I'd hate to NOT know what needs doing though.
I've racked up a few injuries before and qued up before I realized how many I'd accumulated in the previous mission. I'm far better now at looking above my chat window when I blow up or drop to know if I need to heal before respawning.
But you are right that it is not hard to go get to a shipyard or sickbay to heal. And from a programming pov, zero injuries would be easier to program.
Point well made cpt.
If anything we should be coming down harder on the leachers/afkers. They abuse the game to gain resources without doing anything, do you REALLY think they are spending cash in the z store? Of course they aren't. There is ZERO loss to kicking these players out. They leach dilithium from STFs while afk, then they trade it in for zen.
Vote to kick is abusive, we can vote for reputation, that way people can know what we are dealing with. They could add in reputation filters/limits to the queue options. It should work like a e-bay reputation system, the old ones fade away. We can vote for AFK, this could pop up an AFK respond timer on the AFK player and boot them with penalties. People will horrible reps will be teamed with others of the same reps or have serious difficulty playing until they are forced to become less ignorant.
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As well, as stop auto-firing beams. >.> I just thought of a cruiser, parked in front of a Nanite Gen, blasting on auto fire and not being able to de-target the Gen at 10% because the player was voting.
Not prob at all
Thats a good idea in principle but hard to do mid-combat in an stf. If perhaps it was a pop up option once the mission is over and the kicked out player receives the notification as an email...that would work.
believe it or not, this is a server side glitch. It was first seen in tribble many months ago and went into holodeck with a patch (after they ignored the bug report on it of course).
Workaround is simple: while in 'team' tab (if you've made a tab specifically for team chat) switch to ZONE channel, type anything and send it ...and then switch it back to team chat. The bug is that when you switch from one channel to another or one instance to another the server either does not add you to the team channel or kicks you out of it and doesnt put you back in (in the case of when you switch tabs/channels). You have to do it manually.
cmdrskyfaller, you must have been working at typing up your post when I posted my post right above your's regarding how to handle the voting pop-up.
Also, thanks for the workaround!
Auto-AFK kicking is also dangerous. There have been several times where I or other players have hit lag spikes (more common on cure ground) where the player either can't move or they rubber band back and forth. If you have ever experienced one of these, then you know that it is impossible to move or attack effectively. While rare, it would be very unfair to penalize players for this issue that they have no control over by adding a AFK kicker. Almost every time this happens the player is back as soon as the spike ends. If they do disconnect they usually have to reload the game due to the "account server could not be started" bug. It would penalize the whole team if there were a 2-5 minute auto-kick because there would be no way of knowing when it is or is not legit AFK. And the game wouldn't be able to read chat to see if there is a reason for AFK (phone call, etc.). You also run the risk of kicking players that are just changing equipment if you kick players with two minutes out of combat. There are a large number of scenarios that would need to be taken into account.
Rather than increasing the current penalty or adding a vote to kick system, why not add a vote to leave/end match option. If a player wishes to leave a match because the team obviously won't be able to finish the STF, then they should be able to do so if the team is in agreement. If 3/5 of the players agree to end, players can leave without penalty. If a player does not vote within 10 minutes of the poll's initiation, then their vote is automatically counted as a "yes" for leaving. A player can only initiate the poll once (twice?) during any STF in order to prevent abuse. This would eliminate the AFK problem due to the auto-vote and it would also limit leaving. Players would take the attitude of, why leave with a penalty if I can leave without one.
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Real join date: March 2012 / PvP Veteran since May 2012 (Ground and Space)
pay a penalty fee for leaving early?
have that player sent to jail facility 4028
and they cant leave till they pay a penalty fee
like let say 100k fleet credits. if they cant pay
they have to wait and stay in jail for 2 hours
account wide across all characters.
just a thought everyone asking for a change
so why not make it huge penalty
and if those that get sent to jail complain
well let them complain lol...
Just no. Don't pug if youre unhappy with them.
I might agree with more harsh rules if I get a way to force pugs to follow my advices to complete the mission, otherwise it makes no sense at all. Or a chatacter delete if you don't listen to my maco elite commander commands in a STF.
And since it's not acceptable either, I simply suggest that any leaver penalty is removed from the game. This way, everyone is happy. Veterans won't have to endure morons not listening to any tells and advices and noobs will have the possibility to see how hard they suck without the support of veterans and may start to understand that something is wrongwith their game style.
God, lvl 60 CW. 17k.
So, part of this discussion is to work out a new, shorter length of time until infractions are expunged so the serial leavers will still feel the sting, while those erroneously given out don't add up to sting innocent players.
(I'm sorry that innocent players will continue to be hit, my system will help minimize it. That said, laws irl do the same thing: catch people they don't intend to catch in their nets. To fix the problem to not catch innocents lets those who deserve to be caught get free. The only option is to adjust the punishment so innocents get a slap on the wrist while the big sting is reserved for those who deserve it. I am completely fine with being slapped a few time by my own system if it stings those that need stinging. There's plenty of other things to do outside the PVE que.)
I agree, it could be abused. But it would take "3 of 4" or "2 of 3" votes to kick a person, "Other" will not be a reason. It must be a valid reason that impedes the success of the mission. I don't think that people will agree to kick a decent player because one person wants to kick another because of a stupid reason.
The AFK kick system is currently being refined to include a pop-up that would pause the mission and allow players to vote on if a person really is AFK or showing cowardice.
Cowardice would be defined as controlling your ship to avoid the AFK but not logging any damage being given or received for a given amount of time. That amount of time needs discussion to determine exactly how long it should be so legit in game things such as equipment changes and lag spikes are accommodated. (If lag spikes are causing too many auto-kicks, the outcry should force Cryptic to do something about it.)
The AFK vote system, if timed right, will not create a vote for legit reasons to be out of the battle. Also, I believe that if each player has the ability to pause the match once as a way out, that's too many pauses in the match that breaks the rhythm of the match. It would be like trying to play hockey, american football, football/soccer, or any other fast paced sport and having game stopping penalties called every minute or so.
That being said, I have no problem with a leaver penalty. I hate rage quitters and griefers who leave just to bother others. I dislike newbies who leave, instead of stick around and let you help them learn. I'd personally rather babystep someone through learning the mission, than have them quit because they feel they can't handle it.
But the sort of proposals in this thread border on ridiculous. Account locks? Deletions? Inability to create new characters? Do some of you folks really invest so much of your life into less than a dozen boring, repetitive missions? If people leaving puts you this off-kilter that you want to dole out punishment over a computer game, then maybe you should ease up a touch. Read a magazine. Play a foundry mission. Play a different game for an hour or so. I hear Minesweeper is particularly engaging.
There are times when you have a group of complete tools and you shouldn't be forced to stay once they mess things up.
first off. this supports the leaver penalty. but ALSO makes it higher and stricter. for you. who got disconnected.. thats a ONE time thing.. as for people hanging around on the map afterwards? there IS a timer before they get ejected from the game.. you clicked the leave button did you not? had you have the patience to wait for the timer to die out you wouldnt have been hit with the penalty
Secondly. its not a account deletion.. or an account termination.. as you said. its just a game.. MAKE A NEW DAMN CHARACTER.. simple solution for a simple person.. such as yourself.
Thirdly.. there are people who go into the STFS just to leave it or mess it up for the rest and best of us. Tell me.. would you rather have to deal with pugs who just go into the match just to jack it up then please.. be my guest.. il send butts from dental over to ya to troll your stfs.
Fourth. I am the kind of girl. and yes I am a girl. who goes into missions with people who know what they are doing.. hence why I do elite missions. ELITE MISSIONS are not for training wheels.. that is what normal is for.. and if you cant do that. read the damn wiki or watch the walkthroughs on youtube.
Fifth. just because you get one penalty. it only stays on your character for x number of days before it gets removed. its just like a drivers license.. the more infractions.. the stronger the penalty until it gets revoked. And after a few years the points come off your license for good driving. just like after the number of days after the penalty.. your points will be removed
Sixth. please learn to read
Seventh. Enjoy my responce
Eighth . Dont reply to logic. it will only come to bite you in your rear
Nice wall of text. And poor grammar. It was rather enjoyable.
Everyone has to learn somewhere. There's precious little learning going on in Normals.
As for the rest? Again, you should probably relax, have a beer, and enjoy the game. It is just a game, after all. If you have time to sit in front of it, you've already chosen to waste time, rather than pursue more useful activities. If some griefer ruins your 400th run of ISE, you're not exactly losing the opportunity to do something fantastic, since you were already wasting time to begin with.
Some of you people take this far, far too seriously.
This isn't a case of, "Oh I love this mission so much I want play it over and over and over and rage at anyone who #&@^$ it up!" :P
It's a case of, -_-" "I still haven't gotten that piece of tech or that accolade. Who's on I can rely on... 2 others, okay well let's do this." and one of the other two my team joins yells out "Leroooooy Jeeeeenkins!"
The problem is not of chronic leavers leaving to spite other players....the problem is STFS in a pug environment force players who are more , for lack of a better term, more seasoned to have to endure stupid, silly, assinine, tactics that are time consuming and often end in a complete failutre for all who are in the stf.
People are angry, myself included, that we are forced to endure really stupid people in this game of all skill levels.
the easy fix is for cryptic to keep the current leaver penalty in affect and all is well......the better, more proactive, if Cryptic were to implement it, would be to have 2 sets of queus one for anyone and one for elite players.......
The ANYONE pug would have no penalties for leaving...come and go and begone if you want.......
The elite penalty PUG would also be there and would have very strict rules concerning leaving to be set by the devs and their concensus, hopeful based on players input......
The rewards would be the same....nothing elite accept for better and more strict guidelines to be followed.......with the promise of qualified players and an easy (subjective) stf run
I, for one, would frequent the ELITE queue with harsh rules because I believe the players would flock to there wou have skills in the game.........
In closing I feel this is a compromise I am willing to accept But i am sure it will be rejected........
That being said I would favor removing it entirely over any of this......
And lastly.........get some friends....play with them...then this does not happen.....
I work odd hours and my friends are on at diff times so i am forced, if i want to srf, to pug......
If you want harsh penalies for Elite STF's, than my proposal should fit the bill.
I could work on a reduced penalty system for Normal that would include reduced lockout times by 50%, require double the infractions to get suspended, and make every expulsion beyond 4 expulsions equal to the 4th expulsion penatly.
Just like the other day me a friends did 15 CSE in a row with out a timer be cause There was no ******** and complaining.
Learn to do STFs Correctly then there will not be a issue.Learn to do what the Op says in the STFs KA if every body listens then there should not be a issue.The only time i have a issue in my STFs is when people do not listen or do not know what to do.
CSE MRRMLL is good but not the fast way I get may be 4 to 5 mins.
CSE RRMMLL is the fastest way for the timer This way i get 5 to 7 mins.
KASE One person on right watching probs one of left rest take out the gens and gate on the left side first.If you do this the right way you should have 3 to 5 mins left on the clock.Do not worry about shield Max out your weapons power settings.This is way most people go with Fleet Patrol have a good mix of DPS and healing.
Weapons you should use is STFs are regular weapons not borg weapons they suck in STFs Go with either Disruptors or Tetyron they Both destroy shields pretty quickly.
It really should not be a problem to complete STFs Just stop pugging.Plane and simple Find a team and try to stick with the same people .
These ideas that are poping up should not be in the game main reason they would most likely get abused.If you learn how to do STFs correctly then there should not be a issue.The Ignore Button is all ready abused like crazy people ignore others just for the dumbest things.
And as for people leaving the STFs there is a Bug that auto boots you out of no where if you are in space If this happens just leave STF quickly and then restart the game again.
And as for the needed people there is nothing that can not be done about that every body needs now.
Hey you know what? Get better at it and veterans won't leave because you screwed the mission up.
I have a rather low leaver rate in my own pug stfs, probably because i'm one of those veterans who enjoys some training to keep his high level of game abilities in such instances and I can carry several burdens in a team. If you have a high level of quit in your STFs then there must be a problem with YOU. I do leave when pugs are hopeless. And I think I have the right to leave with no consequence since i often do my best to make them understand what's wrong with them. When they ignore tells and messages i quit. Without rage but i leave. I have no time to waste with noobs either.
I have both mk 12 sets and all accolades on several chars. So I don't mind, I just pug because I like these missions. Just don't waste my time and take advices seriously when you get one.
God, lvl 60 CW. 17k.
On Cure Space, "Take out those BoP's on your way to the shipyards, I'll cover and heal the Kang."
On Khitomer Accord Space, "You 4 head left, I'll cover the right gate, and stop those probes!"
On Infected Ground, I admit, I'm still learning the finer nuances of tactics while fighting in the final chamber, but I know the basics. (My first run through taught me I need two sniper rifles, not a sniper and a pulsewave, I didn't go back until I had a mk XII Battle Rifle and Mk XII Tetryon Sniper)
On Cure, I'm coordinating the transformers, guarding of, and assault on turrets. Once at Armek, I've guaged people's abilities and begin coordinating the attack.
On Khitomer Ground, I'm always the one coordinating between the Power units and the Room.
I'm not a perfect STF'er, I know I have more to learn, but I'm not a bad one either.
diogene0-sensei, how about a few lessons sometimes? :cool:
A) I've been disconnected, we all have. But honestly, how many players are in STF's so frequently that the occasional disconnect will cause a highly inconvenient penalty to be incurred?
I know the number I would incur will not hamper my enjoyment of the game. During cooldown I have other stuff to do: story, other toons, grinding for commodities, foundry, non-STO stuff... So, if I have a longer period I can't do STF's or Fleet Mark events it's not the end of my gameplay until the lockout is over. I doubt it's the end of your's as well, thus invalidating that argument.
If I do, create a buyout table of costs, I would institute a change to the character deletion and account ban in that those penalties only come up if a player buys out the first 4 expulsions. If not, the penalty for the 4th is used for the 5th, 6th, 7th, and upwards.
C) Voting. Yes voting can be abused. But the chat logs that a person kicked will recieve, can be used to file a report IF the kick is an unjust kick. In which case, the kickers get in trouble.
Re-read the section on AFK.
D) If a player is sitting there with weak weapons, it could be because the player is putting the effort into defensive gear, threat gen, shield buffs, zone denial, and heals. So perhaps, heal points used on self and others should be in the equation.
E) It's impossible to create a system that can account for EVERY variable.
To say nothing should be done because of that, is an invalid argument.