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Fleet Mark Abusers
azurianstar
Member Posts: 6,985 Arc User
This is long something that needs to be addressed. For weeks now the increase of trolling fleets and mooching in these Events are far surpassing the early days of Season 5, where they just sit around getting easy rewards while others do their work. Some fleets are well known and do it for the lol-factor, and some just do it for the sake of easy rewards.
I know we discussed this dozens of times with various ways to punish them, which usually end up hurting us more than then. And since these same people have been doing trolling for months, I guess Perfect World allows it.
So why not just get rid of this queue system and go back to the old days of finding a group like the old STFs, where trolls were ousted before they even got in the group?
EDIT: Possible solution
It occurred to me one possible - no griefing idea that might solve this.
Anyone caught idling in a Public Queue without initalizing Red Alert after 30 seconds at the start of the event, engages a PvP Flag in which others players can attack that player under the premise of "dereliction of duty". Upon destruction, that player cannot collect any rewards from the Event and cannot respawn for the remainder of the event.
So with such a system, there shouldn't likely be abuse. Given the action of STFs and Fleet Events starting quickly and sustained throughout the event. And if someone had to go AFK in the real world, they could simply abandon the queue before the event starts or leave the event. Which normally happens.
Of course, abusers are very likely to bypass such a abuse system by simply firing once or moving to avoid the timer. So this flaw would need to thought up.
I know we discussed this dozens of times with various ways to punish them, which usually end up hurting us more than then. And since these same people have been doing trolling for months, I guess Perfect World allows it.
So why not just get rid of this queue system and go back to the old days of finding a group like the old STFs, where trolls were ousted before they even got in the group?
EDIT: Possible solution
It occurred to me one possible - no griefing idea that might solve this.
Anyone caught idling in a Public Queue without initalizing Red Alert after 30 seconds at the start of the event, engages a PvP Flag in which others players can attack that player under the premise of "dereliction of duty". Upon destruction, that player cannot collect any rewards from the Event and cannot respawn for the remainder of the event.
So with such a system, there shouldn't likely be abuse. Given the action of STFs and Fleet Events starting quickly and sustained throughout the event. And if someone had to go AFK in the real world, they could simply abandon the queue before the event starts or leave the event. Which normally happens.
Of course, abusers are very likely to bypass such a abuse system by simply firing once or moving to avoid the timer. So this flaw would need to thought up.
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Besides, of all the things you want to be doing in a scenario, you're going to use it SHOOTING AT EACH OTHER, which both GUARANTEES that you're down at least one man, AND wastes time?
This "solution" of yours does nothing to resolve this problem AND probably makes it worse. It is also a massive waste of time to implement merely to satisfy your pointless spite, since engaging in this behavior does nothing to further the mission goals and is, in fact, entirely counterproductive. Maybe the guy just had a sudden attack of explosive diarrhea. Maybe he's just useless. Either way, if you're spending your time SHOOTING AT HIM, you are ALSO being useless, so now that's TWO people not contributing.
Or do we just let them continue to abuse the system and ruin it for everyone else?
Aeons ago, back in the good old days, I was in a game where players were, in fact, allowed to damage teammates, back when people still considered friendly fire an important part of learning the game and a core part of realism. This was a PvPvE match, in which two teams of players competed against each other, sometimes directly (read: violently), sometimes indirectly, to achieve a goal. Rather like Kerrat, really.
Suffice it to say the most hilarious thing ever was when the entire enemy team composed of highly egotistical veteran players broke down into purposeless infighting over some perceived slight committed by one of the team members, with all of them dying and leaving their noob opposition completely unopposed, like an in-game version of the Battle of Karansebes.
Perhaps a rating system tied to the rep system. A player can be rated based on the damage/healing done during said events and is given a score based on their performance. if your performance threashold is below a certain point you can't que for elite stf's and have a 1 hour cool down on all other events. If you rating falls to 0 you have a 2 day ban on entering said content. This would be handled by the system and would be independent from player interaction. So there is no way for a group or individual to abuse it.
Not everything you see on the internet is true - Abraham Lincoln
Occidere populo et effercio confractus
Rep system always gets discounted due to abuse. But its possible their performance could be measured somewhat.
I'm sorry, but not everyone has large fleets of people that can do events at the drop of a hat. Not to mention Cryptic made public queues available for those who cannot find people to do events.
But guess your solution seems to be basically, "just warp out", and those people get away with their abuse. Because Reporting them to CSR obviously does no good.
If you based the calculations on global averages for say ship type and assigned bonuses for over average. So say a cruiser averages 100/100 across all cruisers at that level and your flying a tac heavy cruiser so you average 150/50 the scoring system would see you are below average for healing so you get a -5 lets say out of 10 for healing in youe vessel type but the system sees you are above average for damage so you get a +15 out of 10 and then it gives you a combined score of 10 out of 10 so you dont loose any standing and still gain some. Now lets say you average 125/125 system scores you at +12.5 on each and you get an above average score of 15 out of 10 so you gain rep faster. Then say your a leecher or constant afk'er, the system will see a 25/25 lets say and score you at -7.5 on each resulting in a combined -15 causing you to loose rep. If each player has 0 rep upon gaining RA then they can earn it through the normal level STF's easily gaining enough by the time you level to VA to be above the threashold for elite and thats assuming they don't play the fleet actions which should also gain you rep. And since the system doesn't count time or deaths you aren't penalized for loosing a man or gaining an AFK'er. Your reputation would be tracked by account so that you can skip leveling up a new rep for new characters, this also means griefers can't get away with making trash characters just to collect dilithium. And since your rating is judged by the average of your ship class and the level of play you are only being judged against others in a narrow range so your aren't tossed in with the people above or below you in level or those in different classes. Also only publis cues would be ranked or tracked. The numbers are arbitrary but in essence thats how I see it working.
Not everything you see on the internet is true - Abraham Lincoln
Occidere populo et effercio confractus
Honestly, you're better off trying to form contacts with people you've participated in previous successful raids with and forming groups from those. I know what you mean: I, too, come from a small and understaffed fleet. But I also happen to know that none of the solutions proposed really WORK. Even if you measure it based on damage/healing, it's entirely possible that these values are counterproductive: Some butthead will focus ENTIRELY on these stats, often in ways that are counterproductive to the success of the mission, like those guys who ALWAYS, ALWAYS, destroy the generator.
Meanwhile, the guy who actually tried to protect the Kang gets shafted on stats.
Ugh, no. I've never played a non-elite raid in my entire career. What a total waste of time! There is a precisely zero percent chance of anything worthwhile dropping in non-Elite STFs.
Well the guy protecting the kand should be 1) healing the kang 2) healing himself 3) killing the things that attack the kang. It's also a point of contention as to weather or not there is a need for a dedicated kang healer. But if it were me and i saw that nothing had been threatening the kang I would move off and help kill other things.
You not doing normal raids is your choice and your problem. As I stated it's not the only way to earn rep. However at some point all new players should do the normal STF's if only to learn how they work and like I said its based on global averages so if you are at least on par then you should earn rep just fine. And regular STF's reward salvage and tech the same as the elite ones so its useable if only to get the lower level stuff while you wait for it to drop in the elites when you level up to them. its also a good source of dilithium at that level.
Frankly if in a system that rewards you for merely being average I fail to see where an above average player would have difficulty.
Not everything you see on the internet is true - Abraham Lincoln
Occidere populo et effercio confractus
Ok i give you an example what would happen. Lets take me and lets say i am a bad guy. I have a very strong fleet defiant and sometimes play cure space normal (just because i am too lazy to dodge invisible plasma torpedoes and i dont need anything from STFs anyway anymore and so on..). I usually kill my cube (alone) before the others manage to even remove the nodes from one of the other 2 cubes. Then lets say (because i am a bad guy in this case) Kerrat is not enough for me and i want some more PvP. In this case, i would just join some cure space normal and wait 30 seconds. Then i would destroy my entire team (most likely) and leave again. Maybe because i would get a penalty, i wouldnt do it often and maybe only just before i go to bed, but maybe, i am a pvp player only and dont care about STFs so i join them once per hour... However, there would be more complaints than you have spent EC on your ship.
is the queue actually working like that?
----
@OP: there IS a chat channel "FleetEvent" if you want to look for premades, personally i did not have much bad experience with PuGs, i guess we have less Trolls on KDF side ;P
There are also fewer people on the KDF side.
Not everything you see on the internet is true - Abraham Lincoln
Occidere populo et effercio confractus
Already looked into that a long time ago.
Never worked like that before. I'll have to try again. Nontheless doesn't excuse such people abusing the system and ruining it for everyone else.
Why do you think this system I proposed is a 2-Way PvP system? Of course it's not, else PvPers would end up adding to the problem. It's 1-way, where the group can attack the player.
Honestly, I really hope Cryptic abandons this stupid queue system and goes back to finding groups the old way. If there is an abuser, he would be quickly alienated by the population and we solve problems. But with this queue nonsense, this is Cryptic's responsiblity. We aren't paying to be griefed and they better realize it.
Why would you WANT lower-level stuff that is bind to character? It's nothing more than vendortrash at that point. And what's the waiting? The 40->50 range is probably the shortest levelups in the entire game, as the amount of XP you're earning for doing...anything, really, is huge compared to the cost of actually levelling. Going 40->50 takes maybe 5 hours, tops, and that's doing it at a relaxed pace. When you're already that close to being able to actually use real equipment instead of newbie trash, why would you gather MORE newbie trash?
And good source of dilithium? You're joking, right? That's peanuts compared to how long it takes and how often PUGs fumble the entire mission. Dilithium isn't why you do these things, anyway. I already have no problems making my 8K/day on 8-10 toons as it is.
I thing this is what happens, for PuG's at least.
Doesn't work for invited groups.
There is another solution, if (as I assume) there is no leavers penalty then as soon as you see someone idling just get all the active members to bug out and restart.
Idlers will be left with no team and no rewards.
To the first point. the drop rates for the mk XII gear are low enough a player may not get a whole set for a while in which case the mkX -XI stuff is a perfectly useable stop gap.
To the second , the fact tht it literaly takes no time to level in this game is a perfectly logical reason to require players to do afew runs through the normal stf's before they can do the elites. And the most logical time to require this is in the level where they can't do the elites anyway. I also never gave numbers for how many runs you would need before you could play elites, In fact I barely gave numbers at all so the assumption that you would have to do alot of grinding in my system is unjustified.
To the third point, why would you purposley ignore a sorce of dilithium? At the level ranges I'm talking about it's one of the better useable sources. Do you not do dailies because the other rewards may be useless? You aren't even elidgable to do elites 'till VA anyway so why not do afew normals? And if it were required to play well enough to play at all then I doubt you would see many pugs fumbling as you say.
Even you were at one point new to the game and I doubt you started with the same knowlage and skill you have now, my suggested system would probably have little to no impact on you unless you were not as good as you think you are.
Not everything you see on the internet is true - Abraham Lincoln
Occidere populo et effercio confractus
Normally I do, especially those with the well-known fleets. But I forgot about this one fleet that does this.
I was in a Fleet Red Alert at the end of the last event, and I was the only escort among 4 Cruisers, 1 a Captain. And we were at the end of Wave 3 when I realized one guy hadn't moved. I was very tempted to beam out but that left me in a spot to abandon the bonus and or finish up and give the guy a freebie.
As I said before, these people really ruin it for everyone and I'm disappointed Cryptic ignores the issue and other people just pretend like it's nothing.
Anyone bothering to do normal STFs at a level range where they can't do the real deal yet is clueless anyway. If you want vendortrash, just scoop it off the exchange. That stuff is worthless and everyone knows it, which is why you find it priced barely above vendortrash value.
I am purposely ignoring it because it is actually a negative value source of dilithium when you factor in opportunity costs of doing something that pays out at a better dil/cost ratio. It takes a good 15-30m, can fail, and generates only a measly pittance. I mean, it's 1100 dil for Elite, and even this is a pittance for how long it takes, but we're not doing STFs for dilithium here. Normal is even less, AND the primary purpose of doing it at all doesn't exist.
Huh? Of course I do the dailies. 1440 dil for about 30 seconds of work is one of the best returns there is. 50 FM is a bonus, too. Of course, anything THAT good is naturally gated as a daily, but eh.
Because...rather than wasting my time on that, I could spend it fixing the "not being VA" problem, which I ultimately will end up having to do anyway?
I thank you for the compliment, seeing as that I still *AM* new. I've been here less than a month. There's a simple, understated recipe for success, though: Find the guy in charge of the raid and do whatever he tells you to do. People like that are never hesitant to tell you what you should be doing. And if he doesn't know either, well, when the raid flops, it's now his fault. And now you know better!
The fact that I have reached the position of viewing normal STFs with the utter contempt they deserve this quickly is proof that they are, indeed, worthless. If even a new player like myself can see what an utterly worthless waste of time they are, it stands to reason that they are exactly as worthless as I say. This is why I have never actually bothered to do them, and just skipped straight for Elite. Probably because I actually read the manual, the part where it says "XII and Prototype Gear Not Found Here". So I came to the simple conclusion: If I want vendortrash to fill gaps in my loadout, I can scoop it from the exchange for...the measly pittance the market knows it's worth. All you have to do is look at the Exchange to realize that the free market places exactly as much value on that stuff as I do: Practically none whatosever. I have seen this stuff being dumped for barely above vendortrash value, and sometimes even less, which means whoever dumped that considered it so worthless that he would rather chuck it on the exchange during a pass-by pitstop than bothering to hike to a vendor to sell it.
And that was probably from an Elite STF, too. But hey, vendortrash, found everywhere.
I normally play in PUGS and don;t have a issue but did notice this a lot in STF's
Vice Admiral Volmack ISS Thundermole
Brigadier General Jokag IKS Gorkan
Centurion Kares RRW Tomalak
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Firstly I have been refrencing the stf gear this entire time not the just that drops normaly. These are things you can't buy on the exchange. I didn't make it very clear though so I'm stating it now.
Your view point seems to come from a more than casual player, which is fine, but the majority of the player base is casual some of whom either don't have the time to play more than 2 or 3 hours a week or aren't part of a larger group of people so they can't or won't simply join up with the same few people. Largely it is these people who are most dependant on pug's conversley it is also this group who mostly hurt pug's. You have made it seem that you don't use the public system so why would you care about a ranking system applied to the public cues?
Not everything you see on the internet is true - Abraham Lincoln
Occidere populo et effercio confractus
The "need or greed" system is laughable because everyone just hits "need" anyway, so the result is that the loot is essentially distributed at random, a system which is actually worse than traditional ninja-looting! At least with ninjalooting, you knew someone wanted it enough to bother. Besides, I like ninja looting. It's traditional. BEING NAGGED OVER EVERY SINGLE FREAKING POTION THAT DROPS IS ANNOYING AS HELL, especially since now I am thus obligated to stop what I am doing and indicate that "Yes, I need this, even though I don't actually want it in any way and would really prefer it if you just gave it to the guy who took the time to pick it up and stopped nagging me about this". ANNOYING!
No, I know what you meant. The thing is, all vendortrash is about the same to me. Substandard STF gear is still just another form of vendortrash. All just filler you're using until you get real equipment. With that in mind, one piece of vendortrash is as good as any other.
Well, someone's gotta get horribly killed in Kerrat for our amusement, I guess. Can't have casualties without the casual.
Did I give that impression? I did mention I don't actually have a group of associates that I can run with regularly, but the way I see it, PUGs are a place where you go to meet people that you can later form privs with. I look to extricate myself from this trainwreck, but I'm still stuck with it. But I see it for what it is: A cesspool of moronity that nothing can cure, where you fish for gems. The proposed cure, "mandatory tutorials" is more annoying than the actual problem! I DETEST tutorials, mostly because if you're playing something the way the designers intended, you are doing it wrong.
I would suggest monitoring damage, if you have not fired weapons at an enemy for 2 minutes then flash a warning about being taken over (moving your ship around doesnt stop the timer)...if you dont engage an enemy within 10 seconds of the warning your ship becomes a npc bot and wont allow you to regain control from the bot until your ship has sucessfully engaged an enemy.
The bot would use your powers and respawn if killed.
During afk engagements no loot is offered to the player and no fleet marks are awarded.
That should force people to either play the game, or if afk at least you have a bot helping out and the afker doesnt get awards.
If you didnt want the stf gear then you know you can trade it for a dilithium box right? Frankly the difference btween the mk XI and XII gear is minimal at best so it really is only worthless once you get the MK XII set. The borg set is probably the cheepest one to get at 20 EDC's and one run through assimilated most people mix and match however. My proposed system would only penalize the truely aweful and the trolls and would only require minimal effort to maintain since all you have to do is play. By the way I have taken some of your concerns into consideration and updated my origional post. I added; The rep ranking should be account wide and only public cues would be ranked private matches are your own fault if you invite a troll.
Not everything you see on the internet is true - Abraham Lincoln
Occidere populo et effercio confractus
Yeah, I got that. I got that playing the REAL DEAL. After that, EDC rapidly declines in value.
Sadly, your system won't actually stop trolls. It won't even do a really terrific job keeping out scrubs, because as you pointed out, the average is just SO BAD. But trolls? Trolls are forever. Trolls DON'T necessarily have ****ty performance stats. They're doing that on purpose, to make you rage. Even the scrubs don't necessarily have bad performance stats. The Guy Who Destroyed The Generator Early wasn't doing no damage, he was doing too MUCH damage. The only guys you'll catch for really awful damage stats are The Guys Who Never Remodulate.
Yeah this is a bad idea especially in IS STF as sometime you have to wait for the other players to take the generators down to 10% before you can fire on yours again so if it took over it could destroy the tactic for the STF
Vice Admiral Volmack ISS Thundermole
Brigadier General Jokag IKS Gorkan
Centurion Kares RRW Tomalak
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I wouldnt suggest implementing this for STFs, but for fleet missions that are just about kill kill kill it could work.
I have seen people floating far away from the starbase in fleet missions just nudging their ship every now and then whilst farming fleet marks...something needs to be done and i think turning you into a bot if your not firing for x amount of time could be the solution.
I once had to sit there for 20 minutes before the rest of the team figured out that that the Dreadnaughts were over HERE. There was no point in firing a shot, taking on the pack ALONE would have just resulted in death (believe me, I tried it). I was spending my time there yelling at them to get their butts over here.
They were blowing the hell out of all the random frigates. I DO NOT WANT TO BE ADDED TO THE FRAY OF POINTLESS FRIGATE DESTRUCTION. I prefer to remain here, so that at least SOMEONE might notice that I am where they're supposed to be and move over here.
Buy zen with your excess it's what I do. I never intended to keep the active trolls out. There is nothing you can do about an *******. I intended to keep leechers and the horribad away.
Being forced to at least once play through some normals probably won't affect most people and as I said It's just one way to earn your reputation you can easily skip then entirely if you were also scored in the fleet actions. Really it should apply to any and all team based missions.
Yes the edc isn't that great once you have full sets of everything but I wasn't suggesting those players at that level do the normals, I was suggesting those who are first time admirals and not eledgible to play the elites be forced to do at least one of each. You argued that there was no point and that there was nothing worth it. I argue that untill elites open you can always do afew normals for the off chance of some rare salvage which can net you a decent amount of dilithium or some good stopgap borg gear.
If a new player had to learn the ropes and actualy become effective in order to play the missions the you would see fewer scrubs queing for elites in rainbow boats doing effectively nothing. If you were required to actualy do somthing then the afk leeches would disappear as it wouldn't be worth it to level your rep back up just to sit out one or 2 stf's at most. I also believe more players would actualy pay attention to their chat window if there was an actual effort cost to gaining entry into the elite stf's.
Not everything you see on the internet is true - Abraham Lincoln
Occidere populo et effercio confractus
That way the game could to work out when someone is being a farming afker in those mission types.
Then you need a solution to being afk...just kicking them or stopping them getting rewards doesnt help the team, so make them into a npc controlled bot so they ae forced to join the action and assit their team.