For space combat death/revival, rather than the ship exploding it should simply be disabled. This is already seen in multiple missions for story dependent NPC ships. Every player regardless of rank and career should have the ability to send engineering teams to friendly ships to repair battle damage. Since Cryptic has added the increasing respawn timer, the severity of the damage increases the time necessary to repair the damage. Use of the appropriate components removes the debuffs and/or decreases the time necessary for repair.
Disabling is almost always followed by boarding in those missions, and sometimes with destroying the sitting duck ship afterwards.
In short, why would the enemy suddenly ignore you completely rather than finishing you off?
Disabling is almost always followed by boarding in those missions, and sometimes with destroying the sitting duck ship afterwards.
In short, why would the enemy suddenly ignore you completely rather than finishing you off?
Probably for the same reason that they ignore separated saucers and Aquarius ships that are disabled in space.
Long story short it's trading one logical stretch for another, but it is a shorter logical stretch to be ignored by an enemy once you're no longer a threat than to be spontaneously brought back from the dead, ship and all.
Disabling is almost always followed by boarding in those missions, and sometimes with destroying the sitting duck ship afterwards.
In short, why would the enemy suddenly ignore you completely rather than finishing you off?
Why would my destroyed ship magically teleport across space-time to the warp-in point of the system with the crew slowly rising from the dead to reassume their stations?
Jack Emmert: "Starfleet and Klingon. ... So two factions, full PvE content." Al Rivera hates Klingons Star Trek Online: Agents of Jack Emmert All cloaks should be canon.
Probably for the same reason that they ignore separated saucers and Aquarius ships that are disabled in space.
When, precisely did they do this in canon? When has saucer separation ever been significantly useful in canon?
Long story short it's trading one logical stretch for another, but it is a shorter logical stretch to be ignored by an enemy once you're no longer a threat than to be spontaneously brought back from the dead, ship and all.
It is trading an easy to shrug off game mechanic for enemies all being idiots. YMMV, but respawning is easier for me to simply ignore as a standard aspect of most computer games.
When, precisely did they do this in canon? When has saucer separation ever been significantly useful in canon?
It is trading an easy to shrug off game mechanic for enemies all being idiots. YMMV, but respawning is easier for me to simply ignore as a standard aspect of most computer games.
2366. The Best of Both Worlds, Part II. Saucer separation coupled with the use of antimatter spread provided the guile necessary for Data and Worf to board the cube. Perhaps you should revisit these two episodes?
Jack Emmert: "Starfleet and Klingon. ... So two factions, full PvE content." Al Rivera hates Klingons Star Trek Online: Agents of Jack Emmert All cloaks should be canon.
2366. The Best of Both Worlds, Part II. Saucer separation coupled with the use of antimatter spread provided the guile necessary for Data and Worf to board the cube. Perhaps you should revisit these two episodes?
But they didn't ignore the saucer, in the context of this discussion. Neither saucer nor star-drive sections were disabled.
Based on that logic, they would ignore all ships, since they shot at some other ship first...
Perhaps you should actually learn the context of posts before you spout off?
When, precisely did they do this in canon? When has saucer separation ever been significantly useful in canon?
I suggest you read before you post. Now read my post again and let it sink in.
Jack Emmert: "Starfleet and Klingon. ... So two factions, full PvE content." Al Rivera hates Klingons Star Trek Online: Agents of Jack Emmert All cloaks should be canon.
I suggest you read before you post. Now read my post again and let it sink in.
You might partially have me on the second half, but not on the first. I wasn't asking when they separated the saucer. I was asking when it was successfully used as an escape vehicle while under fire.
The closest was in Generations, and they 'escaped' into a hard landing.
Using the saucer offensively is the exact opposite of the situation I was saying they never did.
This is what I mean by context. Now.... is that sinking in?
You might partially have me on the second half, but not on the first. I wasn't asking when they separated the saucer. I was asking when it was successfully used as an escape vehicle while under fire.
The closest was in Generations, and they 'escaped' into a hard landing.
Using the saucer offensively is the exact opposite of the situation I was saying they never did.
This is what I mean by context. Now.... is that sinking in?
That is not what you asked. At no point in your statement was escape ever mentioned as the intent of your reasoning. That may be what you want to have seen being asked after the fact but it does not change that I made a direct quote of your post asking: "When has saucer separation ever been significantly useful in canon?" No matter how you try and spin it, you asked that question and no other context can be inferred from the question. Nice try.
Jack Emmert: "Starfleet and Klingon. ... So two factions, full PvE content." Al Rivera hates Klingons Star Trek Online: Agents of Jack Emmert All cloaks should be canon.
That is not what you asked. At no point in your statement was escape ever mentioned as the intent of your reasoning. That may be what you want to have seen being asked after the fact but it does not change that I made a direct quote of your post asking: "When has saucer separation ever been significantly useful in canon?" No matter how you try and spin it, you asked that question and no other context can be inferred from the question. Nice try.
This is what I was responding to with that post.
Originally Posted by red01999
Probably for the same reason that they ignore separated saucers and Aquarius ships that are disabled in space.
That is called "Context"
Now, care to try again or do you need a bigger shovel?
Now, care to try again or do you need a bigger shovel?
I fail to see "escape" or reference to "escape" anywhere in the context you propose. Your attempts to insert the notion of escape into context where it never existed either in the post you responded to or the post you made is absurd. Perhaps a study on the intricacies of literary context is in order for you. You could review it between Best of Both Worlds episodes.
Jack Emmert: "Starfleet and Klingon. ... So two factions, full PvE content." Al Rivera hates Klingons Star Trek Online: Agents of Jack Emmert All cloaks should be canon.
I fail to see "escape" or reference to "escape" anywhere in the context you propose. Your attempts to insert the notion of escape into context where it never existed either in the post you responded to or the post you made is absurd. Perhaps a study on the intricacies of literary context is in order for you. You could review it between Best of Both Worlds episodes.
Only if you can explain how best of both worlds relates to this thread in any way other than your ego.
In what way were saucers ignored by an enemy in any manner relevant to this thread? In particular, when were disabled saucers ignored?
2366. The Best of Both Worlds, Part II. Saucer separation coupled with the use of antimatter spread provided the guile necessary for Data and Worf to board the cube. Perhaps you should revisit these two episodes?
Notice the lack of "escape," concept of escape, or notion of escape anywhere in the context of these posts. Does this spell it out for you simply enough? Or do you prefer doing things the hard way? It is your ego that blocks resolution. This conversation is terminated due to lack of coherent, contextual response on your part.
Jack Emmert: "Starfleet and Klingon. ... So two factions, full PvE content." Al Rivera hates Klingons Star Trek Online: Agents of Jack Emmert All cloaks should be canon.
Notice the lack of "escape," concept of escape, or notion of escape anywhere in the context of these posts. Does this spell it out for you simply enough? Or do you prefer doing things the hard way? It is your ego that blocks resolution. This conversation is terminated due to lack or coherent, contextual response on your part.
Wow, so your entire argument, continuing and ongoing consists of telling me what I meant, completely ignoring any explanation or elaboration on my part, and completely ignoring the thread topic?
Funny people are worried about immersion when there are people running around in every uniform from every era in Star Trek lol. No such thing as immersion. I think Immersion is what you make it if you can handle Multiple uniforms and ships from every era why would a boom and respawn be that big of a deal ? Man people need to clam down this is a game not real life.
About Pong, I mean. When one of the paddles misses the ball and it goes off the screen, then immediately reappears in the middle to launch off in one direction, with no apparent outside force acting on it? Come on! That really makes it hard for me to believe I'm one of two rectangular white blocks in a featureless black void.
No, what should happen is the closest paddle should have to go catch up with it before it's lost forever! Otherwise one of the paddles would have to go get a spare ball, perhaps even having to go to a vendor to buy it if none are available in reserve. Maybe have a third impartial rectangular block come on to the screen to launch the ball in an official capacity.
I mean, why get back to action as soon as possible when you can have IMMERSIVE REALISM?
Funny people are worried about immersion when there are people running around in every uniform from every era in Star Trek lol. No such thing as immersion. I think Immersion is what you make it if you can handle Multiple uniforms and ships from every era why would a boom and respawn be that big of a deal ? Man people need to clam down this is a game not real life.
This is very-much my feeling on the matter. We play a game where we have TOS Connies sitting in Sol next to Odysseys. It's a game where we have Klingon Vice Admirals wearing pajamas giving orders to Caitians wearing Mercenary Outfits. The idea that ships blowing up is somehow less immersive then anything else in the game is just ludicrous, IMHO.
Immersion is what you make of it; and any of it requires a lot of squinting in this game.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
This is very-much my feeling on the matter. We play a game where we have TOS Connies sitting in Sol next to Odysseys. It's a game where we have Klingon Vice Admirals wearing pajamas giving orders to Caitians wearing Mercenary Outfits. The idea that ships blowing up is somehow less immersive then anything else in the game is just ludicrous, IMHO.
Immersion is what you make of it; and any of it requires a lot of squinting in this game.
The difference, at least IMO, is greatest in that it is happening to you the player. If someone else wants to wander around in Enterprise-era uniforms, it's much easier to block that out, but when it's YOU that's exploding, that gets a lot tougher.
About Pong, I mean. When one of the paddles misses the ball and it goes off the screen, then immediately reappears in the middle to launch off in one direction, with no apparent outside force acting on it? Come on! That really makes it hard for me to believe I'm one of two rectangular white blocks in a featureless black void.
No, what should happen is the closest paddle should have to go catch up with it before it's lost forever! Otherwise one of the paddles would have to go get a spare ball, perhaps even having to go to a vendor to buy it if none are available in reserve. Maybe have a third impartial rectangular block come on to the screen to launch the ball in an official capacity.
I mean, why get back to action as soon as possible when you can have IMMERSIVE REALISM?
This is actually right around the point where these threads get derailed. You're jumping to conclusions - solving this does not necessarily mean grossly modifying a game mechanic. IMO just changing the effects would do it. Even if not, this proposal has been brought up several times in the past independent of this, if I recall correctly, inspired by ground combat.
Honestly, the people who bring up this problem are usually not the ones jumping up to try to stick in new mechanics, new long-winded videos, etc. etc. They just want ships to be disabled instead of graphically blown to bits, and possibly the introduction of a game mechanic that already exists elsewhere in the game.
The difference, at least IMO, is greatest in that it is happening to you the player. If someone else wants to wander around in Enterprise-era uniforms, it's much easier to block that out, but when it's YOU that's exploding, that gets a lot tougher.
You must die a lot more then I do. I play on Elite and can go from Tutorial to VA without ever dying in space once. Heck, I once took an NX all the way to VA on Elite - though I did die a lot.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
I'm going to address several posts as I'm not sure what the correct one(s) to quote would be at this point.
On ignoring separated ship parts that have been disabled:
I don't know if you've got a Gal-R or a saucer-sep Ody - or an MVAE or Aquarius Ody for that matter - but the way that they work is when the non-player component is defeated it basically is dead in the water until it's recalled, whereupon it moves (actually moving, presumably with emergency power) to reconnect with the main ship. Simple fact of the matter is that ship separation mechanics are considerably different in STO, and if we're dying for an in-character, in-universe explanation, then it's not much of a stretch to think that the gross failure of the Galaxy-class project to leverage its saucer separation capabilities caused a major rethinking and redesign of newer ships and retrofits (hence why the Galaxy Retrofit is in fact a retrofit, aside from loading it down with a lot more armor).
On the tactical usefulness of separated components:
This is getting very much off the subject. However, it is entirely possible that tactical capabilities are generally upgraded with the separable components of the ship; that said, the saucers tend to be quite useless in general, and I rather wish with my Ody I could just order mine to get the heck away.
On the saucer as an escape vehicle:
As has been cited before, I am not sure where the idea of using the saucer as an "escape vehicle" comes into this. However, according to the tech manual and several episodes of TNG (and the movie), this is entirely viable. Plus it seemed to work pretty well in Encounter at Farpoint in this role - and that was with the Enterprise going over maximum rated warp at the time of separation, no less.
On enemies being stupid:
I will grant that the enemies ignoring you may be a bit of a stretch. But, they already do it (the aforementioned disabled saucers). And in truth we do not HAVE much of a context in canon (never mind that canon is of only limited help here for any number of reasons, including the aforementioned ones about the saucer), because there is exactly one canonical situation wherein both the saucer and stardrive of any ship in separated flight mode engaged an enemy, and that is Best of Both Worlds II, which was a grossly unusual battle for any number of reasons besides that one
But to go further, it is entirely possible that enemy units may be waiting to dump boarding parties on your ship - at least, once the firing stops. If your teammates are pounding on the enemies, the boarding parties are going to have a hard time of getting aboard, at least if we consider it to be similar to the aforementioned situations in the game wherein the player's ship leaves an enemy ship intact in order to board it. And in single-player situations, well, there's the Respawn button, which, as proposed, is an emergency short-warp escape switch, or something in a similar vein.
On how often I die:
I used to die a lot more. Now it's mostly to instakill weapons, or when I get into a BoP. I am aware, however, that I am not the best player here. EDIT: That being said, I fail to see the relevance to this in how often I die.
They do it in STO all the time: If your saucer or your MVAM part-pets are destroyed, they become untargettable, until they rejoin the main ship. Which is the scenario you replied to. Asking for Canon references for this is quite strange, as in canon, the heros don't die at all and their ships don't, either (or on the rare occasions they do, they are lost forever).
Well, if you have trouble with NPC's being idiots, then STO, at this point, is not a game for you. :P
More seriously, though: The whole point of this thread is to point out that the explosions are not "easy to shrug off" for a sizable portion of the players. Please try to understand why.
Well you're the one arguing that adding more immersive realism would make the game tedious and frustrating, while whining that there isn't enough immersive realism in the game.
Comments
Disabling is almost always followed by boarding in those missions, and sometimes with destroying the sitting duck ship afterwards.
In short, why would the enemy suddenly ignore you completely rather than finishing you off?
Borg do not negotiate.
And for the sake of an extra round of fire, why not make sure the corpse is dead?
Probably for the same reason that they ignore separated saucers and Aquarius ships that are disabled in space.
Long story short it's trading one logical stretch for another, but it is a shorter logical stretch to be ignored by an enemy once you're no longer a threat than to be spontaneously brought back from the dead, ship and all.
They assimilate what posed a threat. Their actions after an engagement has started are not the same as how they act before.
This is getting old. The only reason some don't explode is that those scenarios have the attacker deliberately hold fire after disabling.
There are NO examples of accidental crippling.
Why would my destroyed ship magically teleport across space-time to the warp-in point of the system with the crew slowly rising from the dead to reassume their stations?
Al Rivera hates Klingons
Star Trek Online: Agents of Jack Emmert
All cloaks should be canon.
When, precisely did they do this in canon? When has saucer separation ever been significantly useful in canon?
It is trading an easy to shrug off game mechanic for enemies all being idiots. YMMV, but respawning is easier for me to simply ignore as a standard aspect of most computer games.
2366. The Best of Both Worlds, Part II. Saucer separation coupled with the use of antimatter spread provided the guile necessary for Data and Worf to board the cube. Perhaps you should revisit these two episodes?
Al Rivera hates Klingons
Star Trek Online: Agents of Jack Emmert
All cloaks should be canon.
But they didn't ignore the saucer, in the context of this discussion. Neither saucer nor star-drive sections were disabled.
Based on that logic, they would ignore all ships, since they shot at some other ship first...
Perhaps you should actually learn the context of posts before you spout off?
I suggest you read before you post. Now read my post again and let it sink in.
Al Rivera hates Klingons
Star Trek Online: Agents of Jack Emmert
All cloaks should be canon.
You might partially have me on the second half, but not on the first. I wasn't asking when they separated the saucer. I was asking when it was successfully used as an escape vehicle while under fire.
The closest was in Generations, and they 'escaped' into a hard landing.
Using the saucer offensively is the exact opposite of the situation I was saying they never did.
This is what I mean by context. Now.... is that sinking in?
That is not what you asked. At no point in your statement was escape ever mentioned as the intent of your reasoning. That may be what you want to have seen being asked after the fact but it does not change that I made a direct quote of your post asking: "When has saucer separation ever been significantly useful in canon?" No matter how you try and spin it, you asked that question and no other context can be inferred from the question. Nice try.
Al Rivera hates Klingons
Star Trek Online: Agents of Jack Emmert
All cloaks should be canon.
This is what I was responding to with that post.
That is called "Context"
Now, care to try again or do you need a bigger shovel?
I fail to see "escape" or reference to "escape" anywhere in the context you propose. Your attempts to insert the notion of escape into context where it never existed either in the post you responded to or the post you made is absurd. Perhaps a study on the intricacies of literary context is in order for you. You could review it between Best of Both Worlds episodes.
Al Rivera hates Klingons
Star Trek Online: Agents of Jack Emmert
All cloaks should be canon.
Only if you can explain how best of both worlds relates to this thread in any way other than your ego.
In what way were saucers ignored by an enemy in any manner relevant to this thread? In particular, when were disabled saucers ignored?
Notice the lack of "escape," concept of escape, or notion of escape anywhere in the context of these posts. Does this spell it out for you simply enough? Or do you prefer doing things the hard way? It is your ego that blocks resolution. This conversation is terminated due to lack of coherent, contextual response on your part.
Al Rivera hates Klingons
Star Trek Online: Agents of Jack Emmert
All cloaks should be canon.
Wow, so your entire argument, continuing and ongoing consists of telling me what I meant, completely ignoring any explanation or elaboration on my part, and completely ignoring the thread topic?
Well that sure is constructive.....
About Pong, I mean. When one of the paddles misses the ball and it goes off the screen, then immediately reappears in the middle to launch off in one direction, with no apparent outside force acting on it? Come on! That really makes it hard for me to believe I'm one of two rectangular white blocks in a featureless black void.
No, what should happen is the closest paddle should have to go catch up with it before it's lost forever! Otherwise one of the paddles would have to go get a spare ball, perhaps even having to go to a vendor to buy it if none are available in reserve. Maybe have a third impartial rectangular block come on to the screen to launch the ball in an official capacity.
I mean, why get back to action as soon as possible when you can have IMMERSIVE REALISM?
Immersion is what you make of it; and any of it requires a lot of squinting in this game.
The difference, at least IMO, is greatest in that it is happening to you the player. If someone else wants to wander around in Enterprise-era uniforms, it's much easier to block that out, but when it's YOU that's exploding, that gets a lot tougher.
This is actually right around the point where these threads get derailed. You're jumping to conclusions - solving this does not necessarily mean grossly modifying a game mechanic. IMO just changing the effects would do it. Even if not, this proposal has been brought up several times in the past independent of this, if I recall correctly, inspired by ground combat.
Honestly, the people who bring up this problem are usually not the ones jumping up to try to stick in new mechanics, new long-winded videos, etc. etc. They just want ships to be disabled instead of graphically blown to bits, and possibly the introduction of a game mechanic that already exists elsewhere in the game.
On ignoring separated ship parts that have been disabled:
I don't know if you've got a Gal-R or a saucer-sep Ody - or an MVAE or Aquarius Ody for that matter - but the way that they work is when the non-player component is defeated it basically is dead in the water until it's recalled, whereupon it moves (actually moving, presumably with emergency power) to reconnect with the main ship. Simple fact of the matter is that ship separation mechanics are considerably different in STO, and if we're dying for an in-character, in-universe explanation, then it's not much of a stretch to think that the gross failure of the Galaxy-class project to leverage its saucer separation capabilities caused a major rethinking and redesign of newer ships and retrofits (hence why the Galaxy Retrofit is in fact a retrofit, aside from loading it down with a lot more armor).
On the tactical usefulness of separated components:
This is getting very much off the subject. However, it is entirely possible that tactical capabilities are generally upgraded with the separable components of the ship; that said, the saucers tend to be quite useless in general, and I rather wish with my Ody I could just order mine to get the heck away.
On the saucer as an escape vehicle:
As has been cited before, I am not sure where the idea of using the saucer as an "escape vehicle" comes into this. However, according to the tech manual and several episodes of TNG (and the movie), this is entirely viable. Plus it seemed to work pretty well in Encounter at Farpoint in this role - and that was with the Enterprise going over maximum rated warp at the time of separation, no less.
On enemies being stupid:
I will grant that the enemies ignoring you may be a bit of a stretch. But, they already do it (the aforementioned disabled saucers). And in truth we do not HAVE much of a context in canon (never mind that canon is of only limited help here for any number of reasons, including the aforementioned ones about the saucer), because there is exactly one canonical situation wherein both the saucer and stardrive of any ship in separated flight mode engaged an enemy, and that is Best of Both Worlds II, which was a grossly unusual battle for any number of reasons besides that one
But to go further, it is entirely possible that enemy units may be waiting to dump boarding parties on your ship - at least, once the firing stops. If your teammates are pounding on the enemies, the boarding parties are going to have a hard time of getting aboard, at least if we consider it to be similar to the aforementioned situations in the game wherein the player's ship leaves an enemy ship intact in order to board it. And in single-player situations, well, there's the Respawn button, which, as proposed, is an emergency short-warp escape switch, or something in a similar vein.
On how often I die:
I used to die a lot more. Now it's mostly to instakill weapons, or when I get into a BoP. I am aware, however, that I am not the best player here. EDIT: That being said, I fail to see the relevance to this in how often I die.
Well you're the one arguing that adding more immersive realism would make the game tedious and frustrating, while whining that there isn't enough immersive realism in the game.
Make up your mind.