They do it in STO all the time: If your saucer or your MVAM part-pets are destroyed, they become untargettable, until they rejoin the main ship. Which is the scenario you replied to. Asking for Canon references for this is quite strange, as in canon, the heros don't die at all and their ships don't, either (or on the rare occasions they do, they are lost forever).
In canon there are time loop episodes where they die a dozen times over before they figure out how to prevent it and get out of the loop. How is that any different from what happens in STO?
Well, if you have trouble with NPC's being idiots, then STO, at this point, is not a game for you. :P
More seriously, though: The whole point of this thread is to point out that the explosions are not "easy to shrug off" for a sizable portion of the players. Please try to understand why.
You are asking for them to be more idiotic though. And you are making an arbitrary, unsubstantiated statement regarding the portion being 'sizable.'
It should be you wake up 24 hours later in sick bay then have to do 3 days in recovery then 1 week in therapy and a few days with a cousler. Then ya can resume your mission after you buy a new ship. C store Will have replacement ships for you to use. :rolleyes:
I do tend to agree thou its lacking that WOW factor but again its a game so there has tobe a sacrafice somewhere!
I, too, am all for changing the "Defeated" mechanic (for all situations other than the special Plasma Energy Ball defeat, which I also dislike but cannot see a good solution for) to the player ship becoming totally disabled like the saucer sections/Enterprise in Boldly They Rode. Enemies stop targeting you, and you become revivable by an teammate's ship in much the same way you are revivable on the ground (the suggestion of having to drop shields to revive sounds decent too). Should you choose to respawn once the timer is up, you warp out, or perhaps an allied NPC ship comes in and tractors you out, and then back to the spawn point, repaired.
Alternatively, since there seem to be quite a few people complaining about the ship becoming "magically untargetable", then after defeat you could still be targetable by the enemy, yet since the damage you've sustained forces you to eject the warp core, you are totally disabled until repaired. The hits could still come pouring in, however, your ship would not entirely explode, and you remain at zero hit points -- if you take more hits when disabled, you get more/worse ship injuries. Enemies would not WANT to target you, though, since you can no longer fight back; you're no longer a priority target, so unless all allied ships are also disabled you would quite likely be de-targeted.
The way I see things, in order to totally annihilate a large spaceship without a mechanic such as the Plasma Energy Ball or a catastrophic internal warp core explosion (or being rammed by a ship of equal or greater mass, I suppose), it would take many, many more weapons hits than you could accrue in the ~15 seconds you are disabled, especially when considering huge ships like carriers or Odysseys. Sure, if you are pounded on by the entire arsenal of a Borg Cube for 15 seconds*, your ship could be really beat up but still repairable (I'd expect ships totally destroyed by the Borg were fired on for much longer than 15 seconds, barring internal warp core explosion) -- although admittedly not in such a short timeframe as a respawn, so the immersion-breaking is offset to this issue.
Still, to me this would be vastly preferable than you magically acquiring an identical new ship after every respawn (I already presume my captain & bridge crew always beam out/escape via escape pod from every destroyed ship).
This also doesn't address the ship explosion after the use of Abandon Ship. Again, you have to acquire a new, identical ship after that in under 30 seconds... ah well, can't see a decent fix for that.
*Presuming the cube doesn't want to target your allies that are still combat-ready.
Placing any greater penalties or burden on your teams such as having them go repair you should be optional thing in PvE missions, but never in STFs or fleet actions, unless EVERYONE in it has it turned on. Good grief, I can understand if you want to have greater immersion, but why is it always assumed so would everyone else? Especially when its talked about in a way that would make thigs take longer or more complicated or worse, would require more of your team... have you seen the state of pugs lately??
Well, with a "respawn or call for help" mechanic similar to the one used in ground combat, that should not really be an issue, don't you agree?
And just like the ground respawn / CPR, waiting is optional.
One can always hit the respawn button in space to warp in a new ship. With what OP is suggesting, team revive is -optional- and can help players who have made errors and racked up a death timer. The fact that having the wonderful appearance of engineering support ships salvaging disabled allied ships is just icing on the cake but would be spectacular.
The existing system is functional, yes, but it's no harm giving alternatives / more options. That's what this game is built around. Lotso options to do the same task with.
STF Flight Instructor since Early 2012. Newbies are the reason why STO lives and breathes today. Do not discriminate.
You can get damaged to heck this requires you to go to your bridge and visit different parts of your ship to "fix" it. You then can recharge shields and whatnot allowing you to get back to the scenario. Have some sort of "escape combat" ability on long-ish cool down. This would throw you 20kmaway from the combat zone.
or
You get blown up.
You re-spawn in orbit at ESD or where ever you are 'bound" (new option at every space station including fleet space station)
if you were in an STF that team is now one ship short. you get NOTHING but no gate timer on mission you can re-que immediately.
Yes, a few. But they are always a major plot element, not just some handwaving explanation why the heroes don't die. Such a thing could be featured in a mission (and I had this once in a Foundry mission... that was cool). It cannot possibly be a regular game mechanic.
Die less and it is more believable. And how is it not a 'game mechanic' in canon? When have main characters died outside of a loop? Even an incarnation of Tasha came back. Kirk is still alive in the Nexus (since it touches all times). Jadzia came back as Ezri.
Seriously....
Let me summarize your point of view as I understand it:
Okay, on the one hand, we have enemy captains misjudging a situation. You find that implausible.
On the other hand, we have the laws of the universe bending and breaking themselves to make your ship re-emerge out of its own explosion. You find that less implausible than the other option.
Are you serious?
You are assuming that the universe is bending and breaking deliberately rather than simply being inherently unstable due to all the time travel related shenanigans happening in the various in game plot lines.
Captains misjudging situations just as often, though is another matter. That requires a large number of enemy captains to all be inherently unstable. It is, actually, harder to explain.
From a canon standpoint, the only time I ever saw a ship being disabled in any ST episode or movie is when the attacker made a point to target non-critical areas of the ship for the specific purpose of disabling that ship.
Any time the attacker wanted to destroy a ship, it was all too easy to target the warp core. A warp core breach would destroy the starship 100% of the time.
Which is why I don't think Cryptic should cause any ship I attack to ever become disabled from weapons fire. They should blow up when they reach 0% hull.
An optional death cutscene involving escape pods would be a good idea to help role players maintain immersion.
You can get damaged to heck this requires you to go to your bridge and visit different parts of your ship to "fix" it. You then can recharge shields and whatnot allowing you to get back to the scenario. Have some sort of "escape combat" ability on long-ish cool down. This would throw you 20kmaway from the combat zone.
or
You get blown up.
You re-spawn in orbit at ESD or where ever you are 'bound" (new option at every space station including fleet space station)
if you were in an STF that team is now one ship short. you get NOTHING but no gate timer on mission you can re-que immediately.
But there is already a mechanism for players who want a harsher death penalty. Go into options and set the difficulty to advanced or elite. Then you can fix your character and ships when they get broken.
If the mission is supposed to be hard, like an STF all they have to do is move the spawn point farther away from where the action is taking place. This is also probably why they all have optionals with timers. If you die too much, you lose out on gear.
Well, with a "respawn or call for help" mechanic similar to the one used in ground combat, that should not really be an issue, don't you agree?
...... if you don't play the game you really shouldn't try to suggest "improvements" you know? Maybe i'm mistaken, but it really sounds like you don't, or that you only group with people you know.
I play every day and am firmly against adding anything that will further complicate things upon death. I find the explode and respawn a much bettermechanic than what was done with the Defiant and the Ody in the DS9 FE or most of what people in thinsthread would seem to want.
By an automatic defense system, not a normal fight.
USS Defiant (Tholians)
A race which uses webs to entrap and capture.
USS Excalibur (M5)
By a computer programmed for 'self defense.' ALL hands were killed. So unless you are suggesting that the player re-roll a new character every time they are defeated, not sure that counts either.
STSFS:
USS Enterprise (By a mere BoP, which made the good captain activate self-destruct)
The Enterprise had never been repaired from the fight with Khan, other than what Scotty was able to do on the way to the Genesis planet solo, and only had the bridge staff for crew. It started the fight crippled.
STFC: USS Defiant (disabled by the Borg, Worf was pretty angry about it)
And I am sure there are countless others that I don't remember right now.
And they had to be beamed off. It wasn't salvaged until after the battle was over. It was, in effect, destroyed for purposes of this discussion.
"Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel."
Thirty seconds in ESD or Sirius is enough to destroy my immersion, if I let it. It's the same for a half dozen other things I could name. It's not that the developers, or your fellow players, set out to wreck your immersion - they just don't care about such things, or it's something like #14 (hundred) on their list.
Let it go or work harder at ignoring it. The nature of the game is not going to change now. Two-plus years and two owners later, STO is not going to suddenly transform itself into a strict-canon, fully-immersive simulation experience for the hardcore Trekkie. (Alas.)
Comments
In canon there are time loop episodes where they die a dozen times over before they figure out how to prevent it and get out of the loop. How is that any different from what happens in STO?
You are asking for them to be more idiotic though. And you are making an arbitrary, unsubstantiated statement regarding the portion being 'sizable.'
I do tend to agree thou its lacking that WOW factor but again its a game so there has tobe a sacrafice somewhere!
Alternatively, since there seem to be quite a few people complaining about the ship becoming "magically untargetable", then after defeat you could still be targetable by the enemy, yet since the damage you've sustained forces you to eject the warp core, you are totally disabled until repaired. The hits could still come pouring in, however, your ship would not entirely explode, and you remain at zero hit points -- if you take more hits when disabled, you get more/worse ship injuries. Enemies would not WANT to target you, though, since you can no longer fight back; you're no longer a priority target, so unless all allied ships are also disabled you would quite likely be de-targeted.
The way I see things, in order to totally annihilate a large spaceship without a mechanic such as the Plasma Energy Ball or a catastrophic internal warp core explosion (or being rammed by a ship of equal or greater mass, I suppose), it would take many, many more weapons hits than you could accrue in the ~15 seconds you are disabled, especially when considering huge ships like carriers or Odysseys. Sure, if you are pounded on by the entire arsenal of a Borg Cube for 15 seconds*, your ship could be really beat up but still repairable (I'd expect ships totally destroyed by the Borg were fired on for much longer than 15 seconds, barring internal warp core explosion) -- although admittedly not in such a short timeframe as a respawn, so the immersion-breaking is offset to this issue.
Still, to me this would be vastly preferable than you magically acquiring an identical new ship after every respawn (I already presume my captain & bridge crew always beam out/escape via escape pod from every destroyed ship).
This also doesn't address the ship explosion after the use of Abandon Ship. Again, you have to acquire a new, identical ship after that in under 30 seconds... ah well, can't see a decent fix for that.
*Presuming the cube doesn't want to target your allies that are still combat-ready.
Placing any greater penalties or burden on your teams such as having them go repair you should be optional thing in PvE missions, but never in STFs or fleet actions, unless EVERYONE in it has it turned on. Good grief, I can understand if you want to have greater immersion, but why is it always assumed so would everyone else? Especially when its talked about in a way that would make thigs take longer or more complicated or worse, would require more of your team... have you seen the state of pugs lately??
And just like the ground respawn / CPR, waiting is optional.
One can always hit the respawn button in space to warp in a new ship. With what OP is suggesting, team revive is -optional- and can help players who have made errors and racked up a death timer. The fact that having the wonderful appearance of engineering support ships salvaging disabled allied ships is just icing on the cake but would be spectacular.
The existing system is functional, yes, but it's no harm giving alternatives / more options. That's what this game is built around. Lotso options to do the same task with.
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You can get damaged to heck this requires you to go to your bridge and visit different parts of your ship to "fix" it. You then can recharge shields and whatnot allowing you to get back to the scenario. Have some sort of "escape combat" ability on long-ish cool down. This would throw you 20kmaway from the combat zone.
or
You get blown up.
You re-spawn in orbit at ESD or where ever you are 'bound" (new option at every space station including fleet space station)
if you were in an STF that team is now one ship short. you get NOTHING but no gate timer on mission you can re-que immediately.
Die less and it is more believable. And how is it not a 'game mechanic' in canon? When have main characters died outside of a loop? Even an incarnation of Tasha came back. Kirk is still alive in the Nexus (since it touches all times). Jadzia came back as Ezri.
Seriously....
You are assuming that the universe is bending and breaking deliberately rather than simply being inherently unstable due to all the time travel related shenanigans happening in the various in game plot lines.
Captains misjudging situations just as often, though is another matter. That requires a large number of enemy captains to all be inherently unstable. It is, actually, harder to explain.
Any time the attacker wanted to destroy a ship, it was all too easy to target the warp core. A warp core breach would destroy the starship 100% of the time.
Which is why I don't think Cryptic should cause any ship I attack to ever become disabled from weapons fire. They should blow up when they reach 0% hull.
An optional death cutscene involving escape pods would be a good idea to help role players maintain immersion.
But there is already a mechanism for players who want a harsher death penalty. Go into options and set the difficulty to advanced or elite. Then you can fix your character and ships when they get broken.
If the mission is supposed to be hard, like an STF all they have to do is move the spawn point farther away from where the action is taking place. This is also probably why they all have optionals with timers. If you die too much, you lose out on gear.
I like it the way it is.
...... if you don't play the game you really shouldn't try to suggest "improvements" you know? Maybe i'm mistaken, but it really sounds like you don't, or that you only group with people you know.
I play every day and am firmly against adding anything that will further complicate things upon death. I find the explode and respawn a much bettermechanic than what was done with the Defiant and the Ody in the DS9 FE or most of what people in thinsthread would seem to want.
By an automatic defense system, not a normal fight.
A race which uses webs to entrap and capture.
By a computer programmed for 'self defense.' ALL hands were killed. So unless you are suggesting that the player re-roll a new character every time they are defeated, not sure that counts either.
The Enterprise had never been repaired from the fight with Khan, other than what Scotty was able to do on the way to the Genesis planet solo, and only had the bridge staff for crew. It started the fight crippled.
And they had to be beamed off. It wasn't salvaged until after the battle was over. It was, in effect, destroyed for purposes of this discussion.
So, any examples that are actually relevant?
Thirty seconds in ESD or Sirius is enough to destroy my immersion, if I let it. It's the same for a half dozen other things I could name. It's not that the developers, or your fellow players, set out to wreck your immersion - they just don't care about such things, or it's something like #14 (hundred) on their list.
Let it go or work harder at ignoring it. The nature of the game is not going to change now. Two-plus years and two owners later, STO is not going to suddenly transform itself into a strict-canon, fully-immersive simulation experience for the hardcore Trekkie. (Alas.)