Considering that B-4 did not wish to improve himself, but Data did... despite claim of sentience, that made him no better than a robot. In other words, a tough decision Geordi and the others had to make:
Keep B-4, who would essentially remain the same... or get Data back, who would improve himself?
Plus, if I remember correctly, they've made a lot of moral decisions on the show. Not all of them have been noble.
There's a huge difference between making a tough moral decision and premeditated murder. B-4, regardless of his shortcomings, was declared sentient (i.e., a person protected by Federation law). Geordi and friends decided to ignore that and merrily went on their way to try to subvert his consciousness because they liked Data better. Regardless of whether B-4 was "no better than a robot", Federation law protected him. But I guess Federation law isn't what it used to be. :rolleyes:
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Wow, you are seriously confused. Because STO is not canon, they get to pick and choose(key words) which stories from the books they want to use. They are in no way obligated to use every story from every book(and probably wouldnt even be allowed to do so by CBS if they tried).
CBS? There are aspects of this game that shows they really don't care what happens to the IP. Paramount (the movie rights owners) show they care more and they allowed 2009 movie which was basically a Star Wars wannabe. The director even said in the extras he was going for a Star Wars feel.
But this thread existed before and there were people trying to convince me this game was canon. So at least you got that right.
___________________
"There is no problem in the universe that can't be solved with a bribe, a paid assassin, or an overpowered fighter." - Chubain from Jumpgate Evolution
There's a huge difference between making a tough moral decision and premeditated murder. B-4, regardless of his shortcomings, was declared sentient (i.e., a person protected by Federation law). Geordi and friends decided to ignore that and merrily went on their way to try to subvert his consciousness because they liked Data better. Regardless of whether B-4 was "no better than a robot", Federation law protected him. But I guess Federation law isn't what it used to be. :rolleyes:
Commanding officers have defied things like that before; Kirk made a career off of it.
Plus the Prime Directive was frequently violated... if their laws weren't enforced consistently in the first place, they didn't hold much weight.
So I really doubt subverting B-4 was a special occasion.
Was named Trek17.
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
CBS? There are aspects of this game that shows they really don't care what happens to the IP. Paramount (the movie rights owners) show they care more and they allowed 2009 movie which was basically a Star Wars wannabe. The director even said in the extras he was going for a Star Wars feel.
But this thread existed before and there were people trying to convince me this game was canon. So at least you got that right.
I'm not really sure what you point is here. STO is "soft" canon just as the books are. Whether you like a particular movie or series doesn't really matter. CBS is the one who gets to dictate what canon is. In the next Trek series CBS could decide to make many things in STO canon, or they could go a completely different direction: it would all depend on what rights are owned by whom. And it's not like canon doesn't contradict itself even with the 700+ episodes of the various series.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
Commanding officers have defied things like that before; Kirk made a career off of it.
Plus the Prime Directive was frequently violated... if their laws weren't enforced consistently in the first place, they didn't hold much weight.
So I really doubt subverting B-4 was a special occasion.
You're obviously missing the point, whether deliberately or by lack of ability, I don't know. This isn't a commanding officer issue, nor a Prime Directive issue, as B-4 was neither a subordinate (or even a member of Starfleet) nor a pre-warp alien species - he was a sentient being granted protection under Federation law. Geordi and gang decided to snuff him anyway because, well, they liked Data better. There's really no morality play here - the "right" thing to do was clear. They just did the opposite, and in doing so violated everything Starfleet says it stands for. Because they liked Data better.
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You're obviously missing the point, whether deliberately or by lack of ability, I don't know. This isn't a commanding officer issue, nor a Prime Directive issue, as B-4 was neither a subordinate (or even a member of Starfleet) nor a pre-warp alien species - he was a sentient being granted protection under Federation law. Geordi and gang decided to snuff him anyway because, well, they liked Data better. There's really no morality play here - the "right" thing to do was clear. They just did the opposite, and in doing so violated everything Starfleet says it stands for. Because they liked Data better.
What I think the point is, once a law/moral code/whatever is broken the first time, the other incidents lose their value over time. The Federation tried to be a moral force, but there were a lot of violations along the way... subverting B-4 does not surprise me by this point, regardless of my personal opinion on the act.
They say the first cut is the deepest. And after that, the other violations are much less meaningful. Or so I think it is.
Was named Trek17.
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
Wow, I had never thought of that, that would have been an excellent way to do it! It would be a call back to a previous movie, be something that Picard has picked up and carried with him as something special he learned from those people, and would be a very special moment for him as it would remind him of her, it could have been done in a very memorable way! I like this idea, so much better than Data dying. Good idea sir.
I know, right? Plus, it seems like a strategy that Picard would use. He is much more likely to outsmart an adversary than to try to out fight him.
Umm. Didn't Picard learn how to slow down time only for himself? I mean, unless I am remembering wrong, time slowed for him and his girlfriend to allow thier friends to find them. Everyone else was still going normal speed. Am I wrong?
No, you are remembering correctly. It has an limited area of effect. It seems to create a temporal bubble around the user. But I imagine that it would be enough to work within the Scimitar's reactor room (or whatever that place was). Perhaps even being close enough to the radiation beam to cause it to fluctuate would be enough to make their ship's fail-safes shut down the cannon.
Moreover, that only worked because they were on a planet with special properties. The whole main plot was around less than scrupulous people trying to mine said properties.
There is no reason to believe anyone gained any permanent abilities.
They wanted to mine the planet's energy field to act as a fountain of youth, I think. Still, you raise an interesting point.
Perhaps the time control only works there. Or maybe people can only use it for a limited amount of time elsewhere before they have to return to Ba'ku and recharge.
Regardless, I think it would have made for a better ending to Nemesis than killing off Data.
I'm not really sure what you point is here. STO is "soft" canon just as the books are. Whether you like a particular movie or series doesn't really matter. CBS is the one who gets to dictate what canon is. In the next Trek series CBS could decide to make many things in STO canon, or they could go a completely different direction: it would all depend on what rights are owned by whom. And it's not like canon doesn't contradict itself even with the 700+ episodes of the various series.
No, there were people claiming it was HARD CANON in that previous thread. And soft canon is just another term for fanfic. So soft doesn't account to much.
And CBS you mentioned dictates canon. Funny, I said that in the previous thread and pointed to startrek.com (RAN BY CBS) and people tried to argue that down too.
___________________
"There is no problem in the universe that can't be solved with a bribe, a paid assassin, or an overpowered fighter." - Chubain from Jumpgate Evolution
No, there were people claiming it was HARD CANON in that previous thread. And soft canon is just another term for fanfic. So soft doesn't account to much.
And CBS you mentioned dictates canon. Funny, I said that in the previous thread and pointed to startrek.com (RAN BY CBS) and people tried to argue that down too.
I like to talk about the things in THIS thread when in THIS thread. I don't really care about what "might" have been said in some OTHER thread anywhere from 1 month to 3 years ago.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
Brent said not only is Data dead but they are all dead. lol
Spiner also was asked about the death of Data in Star Trek: Nemesis. He noted that he was not on set when they filmed the emotional farewell/memorial scene, but he did offer this:
A lot of people have asked about [Star Trek: Nemesis] and "why did you kill Data?" We knew that it was going to be our last film, and we thought it might be a good idea to end it on a big emotional moment and it seemed to complete Data?s arc from the beginning. What you don?t know is that when the curtains closed in the theater and you left, the Enterprise blew up and everyone else was killed (laughs).
Star Trek pulled a Star Wars Extended Universe/comicbook death/resurrection cliche. It's stuff like this that makes me almost glad ST went and had a reboot...almost.
Star Trek pulled a Star Wars Extended Universe/comicbook death/resurrection cliche. It's stuff like this that makes me almost glad ST went and had a reboot...almost.
They didn't actually plan to leave Data dead when they killed him in Nemesis.
Spiner did want out of the age defying makeup they were using on him but he and John Logan had plans for another movie had Nemesis done better.
The buzz I heard at the time was that, as is usually the case for the TNG movies, they padded the budget to create sets an SFX they planned to use elsewhere. It's not that odd for Trek. Heck, the only reason we see saucer sep and main engineering in the TNG pilot was to create stock footage of saucer sep and amortize the cost of building main engineering into a big budget pilot. Had they not shown it, they were told they couldn't have an elaborate main engineering set later.
In the case of Data's "death", my understanding is that it was all an excuse to make a high quality scan of Brent Spiner for the space jump scene, which they would have upgraded into a fully CGI B4/Data in the sequels. Furthermore, there was a lot of conflict between budget and reality there.
My understanding is that they WANTED Jude Law as young Picard and also wanted B4 to be a 1987 accurate Brent Spiner CGI, all so that Spiner could play the role without going into makeup after the body swap.
There are a lot of rumors that he never wanted to play Data again. I have heard Spiner refute those. I think he still sees the prospect of playing Data as a lucrative gravy train he'd ride again gladly; just with no makeup.
As much as Data aged over the shows and movies, Spiner aged more and by the end they were using heavy prosthesis, thick makeup, and a toupee to fake the look. What started out as contacts and theatrical makeup turned into dieting and more makeup than Michael Dorn wore, all to fake an attempt at looking 20 years younger that Spiner himself wasn't buying when he saw it onscreen.
So I think Data's return comes down more to cribbing notes from Spiner and John Logan, who never intended the death to stick, and less to do with fanfic-y writing. The fanfic there was Data's death scene itself, which was never meant to last.
So I think Data's return comes down more to cribbing notes from Spiner and John Logan, who never intended the death to stick, and less to do with fanfic-y writing. The fanfic there was Data's death scene itself, which was never meant to last.
That makes sense, they've done the same thing for other tv shows and movies.
You know.... this being a video game and all, would be a perfect time for him to come back.
They didn't actually plan to leave Data dead when they killed him in Nemesis.
Spiner did want out of the age defying makeup they were using on him but he and John Logan had plans for another movie had Nemesis done better.
The buzz I heard at the time was that, as is usually the case for the TNG movies, they padded the budget to create sets an SFX they planned to use elsewhere. It's not that odd for Trek. Heck, the only reason we see saucer sep and main engineering in the TNG pilot was to create stock footage of saucer sep and amortize the cost of building main engineering into a big budget pilot. Had they not shown it, they were told they couldn't have an elaborate main engineering set later.
In the case of Data's "death", my understanding is that it was all an excuse to make a high quality scan of Brent Spiner for the space jump scene, which they would have upgraded into a fully CGI B4/Data in the sequels. Furthermore, there was a lot of conflict between budget and reality there.
My understanding is that they WANTED Jude Law as young Picard and also wanted B4 to be a 1987 accurate Brent Spiner CGI, all so that Spiner could play the role without going into makeup after the body swap.
There are a lot of rumors that he never wanted to play Data again. I have heard Spiner refute those. I think he still sees the prospect of playing Data as a lucrative gravy train he'd ride again gladly; just with no makeup.
As much as Data aged over the shows and movies, Spiner aged more and by the end they were using heavy prosthesis, thick makeup, and a toupee to fake the look. What started out as contacts and theatrical makeup turned into dieting and more makeup than Michael Dorn wore, all to fake an attempt at looking 20 years younger that Spiner himself wasn't buying when he saw it onscreen.
So I think Data's return comes down more to cribbing notes from Spiner and John Logan, who never intended the death to stick, and less to do with fanfic-y writing. The fanfic there was Data's death scene itself, which was never meant to last.
Thanks for setting that straight. I'd read bits and pieces of this elsewhere. But not in any one place.
(/\) Exploring Star Trek Online Since July 2008 (/\)
Comments
Separate from the prime novelverse, because Shatner wanted to spread his crapulence even more.
There's a huge difference between making a tough moral decision and premeditated murder. B-4, regardless of his shortcomings, was declared sentient (i.e., a person protected by Federation law). Geordi and friends decided to ignore that and merrily went on their way to try to subvert his consciousness because they liked Data better. Regardless of whether B-4 was "no better than a robot", Federation law protected him. But I guess Federation law isn't what it used to be. :rolleyes:
CBS? There are aspects of this game that shows they really don't care what happens to the IP. Paramount (the movie rights owners) show they care more and they allowed 2009 movie which was basically a Star Wars wannabe. The director even said in the extras he was going for a Star Wars feel.
But this thread existed before and there were people trying to convince me this game was canon. So at least you got that right.
"There is no problem in the universe that can't be solved with a bribe, a paid assassin, or an overpowered fighter." - Chubain from Jumpgate Evolution
Plus the Prime Directive was frequently violated... if their laws weren't enforced consistently in the first place, they didn't hold much weight.
So I really doubt subverting B-4 was a special occasion.
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
Yes, I said CBS. Glad you caught that.
Of course I did! The people who think STO is an official part of canon are simply delusional.
You're obviously missing the point, whether deliberately or by lack of ability, I don't know. This isn't a commanding officer issue, nor a Prime Directive issue, as B-4 was neither a subordinate (or even a member of Starfleet) nor a pre-warp alien species - he was a sentient being granted protection under Federation law. Geordi and gang decided to snuff him anyway because, well, they liked Data better. There's really no morality play here - the "right" thing to do was clear. They just did the opposite, and in doing so violated everything Starfleet says it stands for. Because they liked Data better.
They say the first cut is the deepest. And after that, the other violations are much less meaningful. Or so I think it is.
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
Yes. Thalaron. You are absolutely correct. I confused it with the sensor scrambler radiation.
I know, right? Plus, it seems like a strategy that Picard would use. He is much more likely to outsmart an adversary than to try to out fight him.
No, you are remembering correctly. It has an limited area of effect. It seems to create a temporal bubble around the user. But I imagine that it would be enough to work within the Scimitar's reactor room (or whatever that place was). Perhaps even being close enough to the radiation beam to cause it to fluctuate would be enough to make their ship's fail-safes shut down the cannon.
They wanted to mine the planet's energy field to act as a fountain of youth, I think. Still, you raise an interesting point.
Perhaps the time control only works there. Or maybe people can only use it for a limited amount of time elsewhere before they have to return to Ba'ku and recharge.
Regardless, I think it would have made for a better ending to Nemesis than killing off Data.
No, there were people claiming it was HARD CANON in that previous thread. And soft canon is just another term for fanfic. So soft doesn't account to much.
And CBS you mentioned dictates canon. Funny, I said that in the previous thread and pointed to startrek.com (RAN BY CBS) and people tried to argue that down too.
"There is no problem in the universe that can't be solved with a bribe, a paid assassin, or an overpowered fighter." - Chubain from Jumpgate Evolution
I even saw Nemisis! I probably forced myself to forget, since he was one of my favorite characters. I'm glad he is in STO.
http://trekmovie.com/2011/06/29/brent-spiner-talks-typcasting-death-of-data-bringing-back-soong-for-star-trek-sequel/
"There is no problem in the universe that can't be solved with a bribe, a paid assassin, or an overpowered fighter." - Chubain from Jumpgate Evolution
They stopped making movies so that they could troll Sheldon Cooper.
They didn't actually plan to leave Data dead when they killed him in Nemesis.
Spiner did want out of the age defying makeup they were using on him but he and John Logan had plans for another movie had Nemesis done better.
The buzz I heard at the time was that, as is usually the case for the TNG movies, they padded the budget to create sets an SFX they planned to use elsewhere. It's not that odd for Trek. Heck, the only reason we see saucer sep and main engineering in the TNG pilot was to create stock footage of saucer sep and amortize the cost of building main engineering into a big budget pilot. Had they not shown it, they were told they couldn't have an elaborate main engineering set later.
In the case of Data's "death", my understanding is that it was all an excuse to make a high quality scan of Brent Spiner for the space jump scene, which they would have upgraded into a fully CGI B4/Data in the sequels. Furthermore, there was a lot of conflict between budget and reality there.
My understanding is that they WANTED Jude Law as young Picard and also wanted B4 to be a 1987 accurate Brent Spiner CGI, all so that Spiner could play the role without going into makeup after the body swap.
There are a lot of rumors that he never wanted to play Data again. I have heard Spiner refute those. I think he still sees the prospect of playing Data as a lucrative gravy train he'd ride again gladly; just with no makeup.
As much as Data aged over the shows and movies, Spiner aged more and by the end they were using heavy prosthesis, thick makeup, and a toupee to fake the look. What started out as contacts and theatrical makeup turned into dieting and more makeup than Michael Dorn wore, all to fake an attempt at looking 20 years younger that Spiner himself wasn't buying when he saw it onscreen.
So I think Data's return comes down more to cribbing notes from Spiner and John Logan, who never intended the death to stick, and less to do with fanfic-y writing. The fanfic there was Data's death scene itself, which was never meant to last.
They would be a great race to have in game. But didn't they join the Federation?
Let us upgrade the Seleya Ceremonial Lirpa and Kri'stak Blade
That makes sense, they've done the same thing for other tv shows and movies.
You know.... this being a video game and all, would be a perfect time for him to come back.
Thanks for setting that straight. I'd read bits and pieces of this elsewhere. But not in any one place.