The Guild Perk system in World of ******** was one of the worst ideas ever implemented in that game, and there are many - including me - who believe it was one of the major reasons the game shed at least a third its Western playerbase within a year and put the game into terminal decline.
Why the STO dev team thought it would be a good idea to take one of WoW's worst ideas and bring it to STO, when that game's main appeal is that it is so unlike WoW, is baffling.
The chain of events is exactly the same. Guild perk system is introduced. Beta testers complain that the levelling curve is too long, it disincentivizes smaller guilds and solo players, and gives guilds too much power over members. Blizzard says it will be fine. System debuts. Instant drama and complaining about how brutal the curve is and how it damages smaller guilds. Blizzard says it will be fine. Guilds continue to consolidate, die, or muddle along. The community starts to crumble, players quit. Blizzard says no problem, come back soon. Game starts to die. Blizzard comes up with all kinds of stupid excuses about how it's everyone's fault but the devs because Lord knows that MMO developers never make mistakes, and resorts to endless short-term hijinks to string the game along for one more quarter.
Same story, just replace Blizzard with PWE.
The profound inability of MMO developers and producers to admit and correct their mistakes and simply remove or overhaul systems that are obviously not working is a major dysfunction in the genre. Another major dysfunction is the propensity of MMO developers to unimaginatively copy each others' features regardless of whether they work or not. Many of WoW's most glaring problems come from game dynamics it borrowed from EQ and Rift even though those dynamics sucked in those games too.
The above poster is so right. They should have made three types of fleetbases, small, medium and large, small for small fleets, medium for medium sized fleets etc.
Players should form a fleet because they want to play together based on the fact that they are friends, have a common game idea or something, not because they can earn cool things or have it easier earning those. It is a game, not a job.
Beta testers complain that the levelling curve is too long, it disincentivizes smaller guilds and solo players, and gives guilds too much power over members.
Again, in STO just about anyone can start a Fleet, it does not have to be run with Fleet Star Base in mind, unless you want it to. What is it about optional people do not understand?
Also, in ~3 days so far, my Fleet has done 12 projects, we are a smaller fleet, not even 50 members, and most of my members are new to the game and do not have the in game wealth to drop a lot into the projects. But that is fine, those who can are contributing and I'm glad for that.
Will we make a full tier of everything quickly? Maybe not, since our wealther members are starting to run dry. Does it mean lots of grinding for us? Yes, but at least we will have something to do and show for our time in game. Because our personal charactors were over and done with in under 2 months after we joined.
Players should form a fleet because they want to play together based on the fact that they are friends, have a common game idea or something, not because they can earn cool things or have it easier earning those. It is a game, not a job.
While its true Fleets should play together, once you hit level 50 there isn't much to look forward to.
One does not have to do anything with their fleet, or even be in a fleet, there are other options to getting just as good equipment on STO. Hell I would not trade my Excellisor Class ship for any of the new ones, not because I paid real cash for it in the form of the C-Store (now Z-Store), but because the one thing I wanted most, beyond any kind of offensive/defensive perk is a Excellisor, and most of my friends who all joined STO at the same time when it went F2P all ended up buying the ship they wanted, for various reasons so our fleet ship yards at the moment is not a high priority.
So now that Season 6 is online, it has rekindled the fire in the fleet and we have gotten more active then the occasional STF's, because till we hit Tier 5 atleast there is something for us to do, even if we will not enjoy the fruits of our labor and our newer members will.
Again, in STO just about anyone can start a Fleet, it does not have to be run with Fleet Star Base in mind, unless you want it to. What is it about optional people do not understand?
Also, in ~3 days so far, my Fleet has done 12 projects, we are a smaller fleet, not even 50 members, and most of my members are new to the game and do not have the in game wealth to drop a lot into the projects. But that is fine, those who can are contributing and I'm glad for that.
This is what Blizzard said almost word for word back when the guild perk system came out.
They said it wasn't a problem because it was all about "choice" and they'd back it up with cheesy individual anecdotes (obviously, because it's not a problem for any one player, it's not a problem for anyone, right?)
Whether you're actually a CS professional sock puppet or you're actually naive/foolish enough to waste your time and energy defending a very flawed system doesn't really make a difference. It adds up to the same thing which is that you are defending one corp repeating another corp's mistake, which to me, seems one of the silliest things anyone could do.
The Guild Perk system in World of ******** was one of the worst ideas ever implemented in that game, and there are many - including me - who believe it was one of the major reasons the game shed at least a third its Western playerbase within a year and put the game into terminal decline.
Of course, the game being seven years old and having a large increase in difficulty at the start of the expansion had nothing to do with losses at all.
Oh, and those losses have stabilized at 10 million subscribers. And we don't know where all of those losses came from, so saying "a third of its Western playerbase" is misleading.
This is what Blizzard said almost word for word back when the guild perk system came out.
They said it wasn't a problem because it was all about "choice" and they'd back it up with cheesy individual anecdotes (obviously, because it's not a problem for any one player, it's not a problem for anyone, right?)
Whether you're actually a CS professional sock puppet or you're actually naive/foolish enough to waste your time and energy defending a very flawed system doesn't really make a difference. It adds up to the same thing which is that you are defending one corp repeating another corp's mistake, which to me, seems one of the silliest things anyone could do.
While I admit this system is quite brutal on smaller fleets and the T5 cap should be lowered. I don't agree with you, the system isn't so flawed that it isn't worth having. You on the other hand, show clear bias in this subject, you continuously bring up other MMOs to support your claim. Fundamentally you shouldn't have to do that to support your argument.
What I gather is, you don't have the resources, you didn't get the fleet marks, so you didn't get the fleet cred, you came here to rant about it. Whilst insulting players who disagreed with you.
This is what Blizzard said almost word for word back when the guild perk system came out.
Maybe they had a point? Maybe their goal isn't the whiners but the people who take responsibility for themselves and are willing to play the game the way it suits them?
Whether you're actually a CS professional sock puppet or you're actually naive/foolish enough to waste your time and energy defending a very flawed system doesn't really make a difference.
The point isn't if it makes a difference or not, the point is for some players who have maxed out their charactors such as my fleet and I, it gives us something to do.
While either way I'm going to be grinding PvE missions, now my grinding has a purpose to see my Fleet progress. Verses grinding for what? My 2nd set of STF equipment I don't really care for anyways as I already have the set I want?
PS. I am niether a CS professional or naive, I just apperciate having something to do. And now that fleets serve more then a social purpose, I do appreciate the fact I can see the fleet grow for more then just "name" but also for helping new STO players.
i agree with the op in this . though i enjoy the prospect of the fleet system , and doing fleet focused missions with my fleet mates . the starbase system is focused to hardcore players in STO .the competition between the casual sto player and the hardcore STO player is no competition
a player thats on a few hrs a night opposed to players that spend most of there day and night in game . the latter will always get project completed before the former . even though as the tiers go up and it gets more expensive . the one can always grind more than the other ,and on and on .
fleets using just the leader boards to dictate who earns what in the fleet is wrong and does a injustice to those that work just as hard but dont get to get there contributions acknowledged. which with the limited amount that certain awards get distributed makes more drama and issues with fleet members from both sides . this is a flaw in the system . though might work well in small fleets in the beginning ,doesnt run as smoothly in the medium to large fleets .but later you might need the larger numbers to get the project done , but there is no incentive for those that cant get to the top of the leader boards in med to large fleets that us that method to earn the proper rewards .
They're also the major bottleneck for smaller fleets. At least for me.
Everything else is filled up except for those.
I'm in a very small fleet. We used to have 5 regular, active members. Now we have two. I do most of the work myself. So far at Tier 1 not bad. I know its going to get way worse but thats what happens when you try to build a star base by yourself.
Right now, my Fleet put in a soft "10% policy"(IE you can add 10% to any item of any project per project) per player account - EXCEPT Fleet Marks which are exempt - meaning you can pop in as many FM as you like); and I'd say 99% of all our members are adhering to it with no issues.
In fact sometimes the Fleet chat channel has had convos like:
- "hey we still need 30 of item <X> to complete the current project and start the countdown timer"
Response - "I could, but I already did 10% on that..."
And in the end, some guys even feel more guilty if they're at the top of leaderboard when this comes up, but again usually, the ones who finally do it feel better getting permisson from the group that's online.
If the TIER system opens up and requires larger numbers of items as the tiers progress, we may not need the 10% policy at that point; but I think it speaks well of our Fleet that to date, on one's had a real issue with it, and in general, we are trying to work as a group so that:
- Everyone that wants to participate and earn Fleet Credit can.
- Our Starbase Tier development proceeds at a fair pace.
But, like every other Fleet, we're seeing how things work and adjusting as we go. The interesting thing about all this was that originally, the "10% policy" was going to be for Council and Fleet Officers only (and regular members could donate to their hearts content) - but in the end, the majority of the regular membership chimed in with "Hey, I like that, gives everyone an opportunity..."; and it was effectively adopted by the Fleet in general.
So, in the end, I guess it just depends on what the membership of a Fleet wants to do, or is willing to accept. With us, it may also be that the majority of us in the Fleet are older gamers, and for a lot of us, this ain't our first MMO or Guild type experience.
The funny thing is - For all you guys bemoaning that Cryptic's at fault for wanting a Fleets playerbase to use their own discretion on how to handle Fleet donations; if you were ever in a Raiding Guild of the first fantasy MMOs (IE EQ, ****, WoW) - there was no built in game system for awarding 'Raid Gear' (IE Gear gotten from encounters that took 40+ guild members and often MONTHS of trying to get to the point where you got said gear reliably); that system was usually set up by the Guild Leaders and followed by the Guild membership (in the guild I was in we called it 'DKP' or 'Dragon Kill Points' and had an officer that kept track of who showed up for what Raid, and gave the character DKP accordingly. When a piece of gear dropped you could use, you bid against others of your class who also wanted the gear. We also had a policy of 'Mains before Alts' meaning that if you were raiding with an ALT, you could only bid if there wasn't anyone on their Main who didn't have, and wanted the gear.) <--- But again, this was all player run and tracked outside of the games themselves.
^^^
Was the above perfect and '100% drama free'? Not always, but it worked in general, and kept 'gear drama' to a minimum over the years.
But, in the end, every group of people are different; and will accept and devise different methods of doing things. In dealing with trying to find a Fleet/Guild (assuming you're interested in it) - just be aware that not everything is the same; and there maybe Fleets that don't fit your attitude or play style, but in the end, if you keep being willing to try, you should eventually find a group of folks with a similar mind set that you like working with; and at that point, you've found your Fleet.
Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012 PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
Quite honestly, I think people just need to evaluate their good nature. I'll take myself as an example. Over the last few months, I've managed to acquire just over 1 million dilithium.
For those of you wondering, I sold zen for really high when new c-store ships were announcement, and then bought them back after prices dropped on the dilithium exchange. Do this a few times and you reap of profit.
My contribution to a fleet was opening their windows. That's a 200,000 dilithium job, which in turn gave me 200,000 credits. Resting comfortable knowing that this will be enough for me, I sit back and let everyone else contribute. I'm not too worried about the leader board.
What I'm trying to say is that good fleets don't complete so much with one another on an internal level. Instead, they help each other out. Whether that's stepping aside and letting others contribute more than you, or giving someone duty officers to contribute to a project. There are many ways of doing this, you just have to be willing to give way.
There is another issue that had yet to occur yet, that been new fleets starting up in a few months from now. In the past people have joined fleets based on common interests, now people will be joining fleets whilst also thinking about what level the fleets starbase is and what they have unlocked. I think in the long run this is going to harm new fleets trying to start up and even harm smaller fleets as they stall and loose members to larger fleets. I'm pretty sure the system will stall at tier 3 as well, since many ships people want are thier and I really think people been bothered to contribute will drop off os they get all the items they want (not because they are selfish, but also because by tier 3 is unlocked many people will be getting burnt out).
They really need to make more ways for people to earn fleet marks via regular play, more so with people needing to really farm dilithium as well now for fleet items too (most people still seem unaware that most fleet items cost fleet credits 'and' dilithium), plus the cost of provisioning for ships is quite high as well dilithium wise. I'm really not sure if the market can sustain the current rate of consumption of resources starbases are actually using, more so as projects are require more and more as we level the starbase up.
In the past people have joined fleets based on common interests, now people will be joining fleets whilst also thinking about what level the fleets starbase is and what they have unlocked.
I personally set it so that newer members cannot buy anything with fleet provisions, and therefor the star base when we get to it. Not till you reach 150,000 Fleet Marks donated to our fleet, then even if you did come with other Fleet marks to buy that 200,000 Mark ship, atleast you did have to help us somewhat.
I'm pretty sure the system will stall at tier 3 as well, since many ships people want are thier and I really think people been bothered to contribute will drop off os they get all the items they want
True, but by then, everyone will be too poor to move too fast too far anyways. Everyone will end up running out of money, bigger fleets might take longer, but a economic slow down will happen over all in game.
For me, the bottleneck is definitely fleet marks. I'm waiting for the promised(?) "earn marks instead of DOff xp if you're at the cap" update... got one character already at 150k almost across the board, ready to go.
Any suggestions for someone who currently makes maybe 25 marks a day, between "Thinning the Hive" and "Officer of the Watch"?
For me, the bottleneck is definitely fleet marks. I'm waiting for the promised(?) "earn marks instead of DOff xp if you're at the cap" update... got one character already at 150k almost across the board, ready to go.
Any suggestions for someone who currently makes maybe 25 marks a day, between "Thinning the Hive" and "Officer of the Watch"?
Nukara Prime during the fleet mark event is probably the best way of getting fleet marks, especially with a group.
Do the easy mission Industrial Espionage, the two medium missions Rescuing Redshirts and...well I can't remember the name of the other one, but you have to close the gateway things. Toss in Thinning the Hive as well if available.
Those three missions with a group (even just one partner) can earn you a heap of fleet marks, but just know it is EXTREMELY tedious, even for this game in terms of grinding, it isn't for those who don't wanna put in that kind of work.
If by yourself, I recommend just the Rescuing Redshirts mission, it's simple and quick.
That all said, I have managed to earn well over 300 marks with a full team of fleetmates, which means easily 1,500 marks that the fleet doesn't need to worry about.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
There is another issue that had yet to occur yet, that been new fleets starting up in a few months from now. In the past people have joined fleets based on common interests, now people will be joining fleets whilst also thinking about what level the fleets starbase is and what they have unlocked. I think in the long run this is going to harm new fleets trying to start up and even harm smaller fleets as they stall and loose members to larger fleets.
I agree with this to some degree.
But there's also some pressure on larger fleets to get smaller and this may fuel new & small fleets for some time to come. If Cryptic ever introduces a new faction, there will be another boom of fleet creation.
Also, don't forget the 'clubhouse' mentality at work. Some people will create fleets just because they want to be in charge. Some will create fleets because they like to tinker with stuff. That won't stop just because of fleet advancement.
My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
show clear bias in this subject, you continuously bring up other MMOs to support your claim. Fundamentally you shouldn't have to do that to support your argument. .
Talking as if STO is the only MMO or is somehow not comparable to other MMOs is the biased argument. The definition of bias is resisting comparison and that would seem to be what you are doing - not I.
If you want to argue that I have bias then what exactly is that bias? It certainly isn't bias in favor of STO (because I play it) or WoW (because I roundly criticize Blizzard's bad decisions). Nor is it accurate to say that I'm biased against the system itself, because I got all the rewards in WoW, I just saw clearly that it was a bad system.
I'm experienced. I see the big picture, and I have a wide frame of reference. My opinion is not a biased one, it is an informed one. That I know it to be informed based on my knowledge of my experience is strictly objective. And my informed opinion is that this system is terrible.
Maybe they had a point? Maybe their goal isn't the whiners but the people who take responsibility for themselves and are willing to play the game the way it suits them?
This is an uninformed opinion. Responsibility had nothing to do with it; Blizzard implemented the Guild Perk system (the inspiration for the Fleet Credit system) while making other changes that dramatically reduced the role of responsibility in the game in general.
What exactly were the goals of Blizzard (or PWE) in implementing these systems isn't relevant. What is relevant is that these systems simply aren't good for the health of game communities. That's not an opinion, it's an objective fact based on hard facts - the decline in the number and diversity of guilds/fleets in games that implement such systems, and the resultant decline in the playerbase.
The proper analogy is New Coke. The fact that Coca-Cola launched it with the best of intentions and that many people liked it did not change the fact that many others did not, and although it did get some new people drinking New Coke, they were grossly outnumbered by those who stopped drinking Coke because they disliked the New version.
There's a further, ironic parallel. Coca-Cola's goal with New Coke was to make Coke more similar to Pepsi, when the entire appeal of Coke is that it is very different from Pepsi and most other cola products. It doesn't make sense to blindly emulate your competitor when your niche is defined by being different from them. Same with STO and WoW.
PS. I am niether a CS professional or naive, I just apperciate having something to do. And now that fleets serve more then a social purpose, I do appreciate the fact I can see the fleet grow for more then just "name" but also for helping new STO players.
How does your grinding FC/FMs help new STO players?
I am concerned with the sheer burnout of the projects.
Our fleet is about 20 or so folks actively working the starbase when we can, but I am concerned the grind is starting to feel like a job.
One of our Fleet Admirals had a great idea at the onset, where he would hand out a $20 gift card to highest contributing member at each tier of the starbase...so we have some friendly and motivated competition. It has worked well and folks are working together to the fleet goals.
I understand the designers/developers want the tasks to take awhile so we dont max out the Starbases in a short time period...... maybe a solution is to increase more SB tiers that require less resources to achieve, in other words, more milestones at shorter intervals?
How does your grinding FC/FMs help new STO players?
How about you join my fleet, and check us out
Seriously though, my Fleet bank is well stocked with equipment and supplies for new players to use, I have most marks of equipment in the bank. Plus other kinds of help are avalible from my fleet.
Grinding for fleet marks is one thing to do in game, seeing as currently I doubt I could fit anymore into our bank, and the new to STO members seem to be happy with how the fleet is treating them.
Fleet projects are long term, even Cryptic said so, 7 months at the earliest for a completed star base, personally I'm figuring double that for my fleet, but that is okay, we are casual and we don't care if we are first to complete our base, because we know we wont be.
STO at the end of the day, is simply a game, some people take it way too seriously, have fun, play at YOUR pace not at everyone else's pace, and even if you never get around to getting a Tier 2 let alone Tier 5 Star base, who cares.
Seriously though, my Fleet bank is well stocked with equipment and supplies for new players to use, I have most marks of equipment in the bank. Plus other kinds of help are avalible from my fleet.
Grinding for fleet marks is one thing to do in game, seeing as currently I doubt I could fit anymore into our bank, and the new to STO members seem to be happy with how the fleet is treating them.
Fleet projects are long term, even Cryptic said so, 7 months at the earliest for a completed star base, personally I'm figuring double that for my fleet, but that is okay, we are casual and we don't care if we are first to complete our base, because we know we wont be.
The thread is about the fleet progression system not the FM tokens.
You gave a long response about how PWE and your fleet is awesome but you didn't answer my question. How does the fleet mark system help newbs?
STO at the end of the day, is simply a game, some people take it way too seriously, have fun, play at YOUR pace not at everyone else's pace, and even if you never get around to getting a Tier 2 let alone Tier 5 Star base, who cares.
Golf is a game.
I guess the fact a golf course has horrible layout, the management is unresponsive and the cafe serves stuff that's worse than airline food isn't a problem, because hey it's a game? They make me wait six hours for my scheduled tee time, and I have to walk a kilometer through boring and unsightly terrain to get between holes, but that's okay, because golf is a game, right?
Argument is silly and makes no sense except from the standpoint of trying to white-knight for PWE.
I already suggested that there be a way for fleet leaders to make the donations auto-limited. So then people can't donate more than a certain amount per mission, per day, etc., IF THEY SO CHOOSE.
Seriously. Even the Fleet Bank lets you set limits on how much can be gained per day from it.
I guess the fact a golf course has horrible layout, the management is unresponsive and the cafe serves stuff that's worse than airline food isn't a problem, because hey it's a game? They make me wait six hours for my scheduled tee time, and I have to walk a kilometer through boring and unsightly terrain to get between holes, but that's okay, because golf is a game, right?
Argument is silly and makes no sense except from the standpoint of trying to white-knight for PWE.
And the fact that there are no green fees and even most of the cafe's offerings are free wouldn't change the perception of the course?
It would be seen as a bad course simply because the course offers fancy clubs or tee shirts to those who play an ungodly number of rounds?
And people would complain to this level that those clubs took too much work to get, or that they sold other clubs that were seen as better clubs? Or that buying clubs from them somehow meant free upgrades for life as new tech clubs came out?
You gave a long response about how PWE and your fleet is awesome but you didn't answer my question. How does the fleet mark system help newbs?
It doesn't, but it gives them something to do and look forward to eventually once they do hit level 50 and make Vice Admiral, because after the month it takes to make VA, there really isn't much to do.
I already suggested that there be a way for fleet leaders to make the donations auto-limited. So then people can't donate more than a certain amount per mission, per day, etc., IF THEY SO CHOOSE.
That is the most sensible idea to come out of any of these fleet discussions.
And the fact that there are no green fees and even most of the cafe's offerings are free wouldn't change the perception of the course? It would be seen as a bad course simply because the course offers fancy clubs or tee shirts to those who play an ungodly number of rounds? And people would complain to this level that those clubs took too much work to get, or that they sold other clubs that were seen as better clubs? Or that buying clubs from them somehow meant free upgrades for life as new tech clubs came out?
Golf, like STO, is a game. Sane people play games because they are fulfilling, not because they desire the internal rewards.
If your estimate of a game is based on how many purples you can get with a certain amount of real-life cash then perhaps you need to re-examine your reasons for playing it and how it fits into your life.
Anyway, this thread is not about the monetization of this game. So why make it about that unless all you want to do is pump up PWE?
Humm, You qouted ME saying that I help new STO members using my fleet.
PS. I am niether a CS professional or naive, I just apperciate having something to do. And now that fleets serve more then a social purpose, I do appreciate the fact I can see the fleet grow for more then just "name" but also for helping new STO players.
Fleet marks have nothing to do with that. Hence it does not help new players, unless they are willing to grind for less reward then in Episode missions etc.
However, as I stated, my bank is stocked, we help out new players, and in return their loyalty and donations to the fleet help us and themselves so that by the time they can get that fancy new ship as their level will be high enough they want they'll have it.
Fleets and their star bases can serve multiple roles you know? :rolleyes:
I apperciate something to do that is different and that there is a defined goal because it keeps me active, by keeping me active, I can help more new players through regular fleet things. And therefor things go full circle.
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5,000+ Hours in STO? Yes, Yes i do.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Fleet Leader of "Icarus Factor" - The official fleet of Pothole Studios.
STO Guides for your Android? Yes. Yes we do. STO Guides - Google Play.
Why the STO dev team thought it would be a good idea to take one of WoW's worst ideas and bring it to STO, when that game's main appeal is that it is so unlike WoW, is baffling.
The chain of events is exactly the same. Guild perk system is introduced. Beta testers complain that the levelling curve is too long, it disincentivizes smaller guilds and solo players, and gives guilds too much power over members. Blizzard says it will be fine. System debuts. Instant drama and complaining about how brutal the curve is and how it damages smaller guilds. Blizzard says it will be fine. Guilds continue to consolidate, die, or muddle along. The community starts to crumble, players quit. Blizzard says no problem, come back soon. Game starts to die. Blizzard comes up with all kinds of stupid excuses about how it's everyone's fault but the devs because Lord knows that MMO developers never make mistakes, and resorts to endless short-term hijinks to string the game along for one more quarter.
Same story, just replace Blizzard with PWE.
The profound inability of MMO developers and producers to admit and correct their mistakes and simply remove or overhaul systems that are obviously not working is a major dysfunction in the genre. Another major dysfunction is the propensity of MMO developers to unimaginatively copy each others' features regardless of whether they work or not. Many of WoW's most glaring problems come from game dynamics it borrowed from EQ and Rift even though those dynamics sucked in those games too.
It's stupid. So stupid it's depressing, really.
Players should form a fleet because they want to play together based on the fact that they are friends, have a common game idea or something, not because they can earn cool things or have it easier earning those. It is a game, not a job.
Again, in STO just about anyone can start a Fleet, it does not have to be run with Fleet Star Base in mind, unless you want it to. What is it about optional people do not understand?
Also, in ~3 days so far, my Fleet has done 12 projects, we are a smaller fleet, not even 50 members, and most of my members are new to the game and do not have the in game wealth to drop a lot into the projects. But that is fine, those who can are contributing and I'm glad for that.
Will we make a full tier of everything quickly? Maybe not, since our wealther members are starting to run dry. Does it mean lots of grinding for us? Yes, but at least we will have something to do and show for our time in game. Because our personal charactors were over and done with in under 2 months after we joined.
While its true Fleets should play together, once you hit level 50 there isn't much to look forward to.
One does not have to do anything with their fleet, or even be in a fleet, there are other options to getting just as good equipment on STO. Hell I would not trade my Excellisor Class ship for any of the new ones, not because I paid real cash for it in the form of the C-Store (now Z-Store), but because the one thing I wanted most, beyond any kind of offensive/defensive perk is a Excellisor, and most of my friends who all joined STO at the same time when it went F2P all ended up buying the ship they wanted, for various reasons so our fleet ship yards at the moment is not a high priority.
So now that Season 6 is online, it has rekindled the fire in the fleet and we have gotten more active then the occasional STF's, because till we hit Tier 5 atleast there is something for us to do, even if we will not enjoy the fruits of our labor and our newer members will.
Jim
This is what Blizzard said almost word for word back when the guild perk system came out.
They said it wasn't a problem because it was all about "choice" and they'd back it up with cheesy individual anecdotes (obviously, because it's not a problem for any one player, it's not a problem for anyone, right?)
Whether you're actually a CS professional sock puppet or you're actually naive/foolish enough to waste your time and energy defending a very flawed system doesn't really make a difference. It adds up to the same thing which is that you are defending one corp repeating another corp's mistake, which to me, seems one of the silliest things anyone could do.
Of course, the game being seven years old and having a large increase in difficulty at the start of the expansion had nothing to do with losses at all.
Oh, and those losses have stabilized at 10 million subscribers. And we don't know where all of those losses came from, so saying "a third of its Western playerbase" is misleading.
In short, you're barking up the wrong tree.
While I admit this system is quite brutal on smaller fleets and the T5 cap should be lowered. I don't agree with you, the system isn't so flawed that it isn't worth having. You on the other hand, show clear bias in this subject, you continuously bring up other MMOs to support your claim. Fundamentally you shouldn't have to do that to support your argument.
What I gather is, you don't have the resources, you didn't get the fleet marks, so you didn't get the fleet cred, you came here to rant about it. Whilst insulting players who disagreed with you.
| Join Date: January 2009 | Computer | Fleet: Broken Wings |
Maybe they had a point? Maybe their goal isn't the whiners but the people who take responsibility for themselves and are willing to play the game the way it suits them?
It is about choice, you either want to:
The point isn't if it makes a difference or not, the point is for some players who have maxed out their charactors such as my fleet and I, it gives us something to do.
While either way I'm going to be grinding PvE missions, now my grinding has a purpose to see my Fleet progress. Verses grinding for what? My 2nd set of STF equipment I don't really care for anyways as I already have the set I want?
PS. I am niether a CS professional or naive, I just apperciate having something to do. And now that fleets serve more then a social purpose, I do appreciate the fact I can see the fleet grow for more then just "name" but also for helping new STO players.
Jim
a player thats on a few hrs a night opposed to players that spend most of there day and night in game . the latter will always get project completed before the former . even though as the tiers go up and it gets more expensive . the one can always grind more than the other ,and on and on .
fleets using just the leader boards to dictate who earns what in the fleet is wrong and does a injustice to those that work just as hard but dont get to get there contributions acknowledged. which with the limited amount that certain awards get distributed makes more drama and issues with fleet members from both sides . this is a flaw in the system . though might work well in small fleets in the beginning ,doesnt run as smoothly in the medium to large fleets .but later you might need the larger numbers to get the project done , but there is no incentive for those that cant get to the top of the leader boards in med to large fleets that us that method to earn the proper rewards .
I'm in a very small fleet. We used to have 5 regular, active members. Now we have two. I do most of the work myself. So far at Tier 1 not bad. I know its going to get way worse but thats what happens when you try to build a star base by yourself.
In fact sometimes the Fleet chat channel has had convos like:
- "hey we still need 30 of item <X> to complete the current project and start the countdown timer"
Response - "I could, but I already did 10% on that..."
And in the end, some guys even feel more guilty if they're at the top of leaderboard when this comes up, but again usually, the ones who finally do it feel better getting permisson from the group that's online.
If the TIER system opens up and requires larger numbers of items as the tiers progress, we may not need the 10% policy at that point; but I think it speaks well of our Fleet that to date, on one's had a real issue with it, and in general, we are trying to work as a group so that:
- Everyone that wants to participate and earn Fleet Credit can.
- Our Starbase Tier development proceeds at a fair pace.
But, like every other Fleet, we're seeing how things work and adjusting as we go. The interesting thing about all this was that originally, the "10% policy" was going to be for Council and Fleet Officers only (and regular members could donate to their hearts content) - but in the end, the majority of the regular membership chimed in with "Hey, I like that, gives everyone an opportunity..."; and it was effectively adopted by the Fleet in general.
So, in the end, I guess it just depends on what the membership of a Fleet wants to do, or is willing to accept. With us, it may also be that the majority of us in the Fleet are older gamers, and for a lot of us, this ain't our first MMO or Guild type experience.
The funny thing is - For all you guys bemoaning that Cryptic's at fault for wanting a Fleets playerbase to use their own discretion on how to handle Fleet donations; if you were ever in a Raiding Guild of the first fantasy MMOs (IE EQ, ****, WoW) - there was no built in game system for awarding 'Raid Gear' (IE Gear gotten from encounters that took 40+ guild members and often MONTHS of trying to get to the point where you got said gear reliably); that system was usually set up by the Guild Leaders and followed by the Guild membership (in the guild I was in we called it 'DKP' or 'Dragon Kill Points' and had an officer that kept track of who showed up for what Raid, and gave the character DKP accordingly. When a piece of gear dropped you could use, you bid against others of your class who also wanted the gear. We also had a policy of 'Mains before Alts' meaning that if you were raiding with an ALT, you could only bid if there wasn't anyone on their Main who didn't have, and wanted the gear.) <--- But again, this was all player run and tracked outside of the games themselves.
^^^
Was the above perfect and '100% drama free'? Not always, but it worked in general, and kept 'gear drama' to a minimum over the years.
But, in the end, every group of people are different; and will accept and devise different methods of doing things. In dealing with trying to find a Fleet/Guild (assuming you're interested in it) - just be aware that not everything is the same; and there maybe Fleets that don't fit your attitude or play style, but in the end, if you keep being willing to try, you should eventually find a group of folks with a similar mind set that you like working with; and at that point, you've found your Fleet.
PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
For those of you wondering, I sold zen for really high when new c-store ships were announcement, and then bought them back after prices dropped on the dilithium exchange. Do this a few times and you reap of profit.
My contribution to a fleet was opening their windows. That's a 200,000 dilithium job, which in turn gave me 200,000 credits. Resting comfortable knowing that this will be enough for me, I sit back and let everyone else contribute. I'm not too worried about the leader board.
What I'm trying to say is that good fleets don't complete so much with one another on an internal level. Instead, they help each other out. Whether that's stepping aside and letting others contribute more than you, or giving someone duty officers to contribute to a project. There are many ways of doing this, you just have to be willing to give way.
They really need to make more ways for people to earn fleet marks via regular play, more so with people needing to really farm dilithium as well now for fleet items too (most people still seem unaware that most fleet items cost fleet credits 'and' dilithium), plus the cost of provisioning for ships is quite high as well dilithium wise. I'm really not sure if the market can sustain the current rate of consumption of resources starbases are actually using, more so as projects are require more and more as we level the starbase up.
I personally set it so that newer members cannot buy anything with fleet provisions, and therefor the star base when we get to it. Not till you reach 150,000 Fleet Marks donated to our fleet, then even if you did come with other Fleet marks to buy that 200,000 Mark ship, atleast you did have to help us somewhat.
True, but by then, everyone will be too poor to move too fast too far anyways. Everyone will end up running out of money, bigger fleets might take longer, but a economic slow down will happen over all in game.
Jim
Any suggestions for someone who currently makes maybe 25 marks a day, between "Thinning the Hive" and "Officer of the Watch"?
You'll be making that amount of marks each and every time you play. But you wont really get anything else in the way of equipment.
Jim
Turn in Tholian missions during the Fleet Mark event, you can get quite a few Fleet Marks during that time.
Nukara Prime during the fleet mark event is probably the best way of getting fleet marks, especially with a group.
Do the easy mission Industrial Espionage, the two medium missions Rescuing Redshirts and...well I can't remember the name of the other one, but you have to close the gateway things. Toss in Thinning the Hive as well if available.
Those three missions with a group (even just one partner) can earn you a heap of fleet marks, but just know it is EXTREMELY tedious, even for this game in terms of grinding, it isn't for those who don't wanna put in that kind of work.
If by yourself, I recommend just the Rescuing Redshirts mission, it's simple and quick.
That all said, I have managed to earn well over 300 marks with a full team of fleetmates, which means easily 1,500 marks that the fleet doesn't need to worry about.
I agree with this to some degree.
But there's also some pressure on larger fleets to get smaller and this may fuel new & small fleets for some time to come. If Cryptic ever introduces a new faction, there will be another boom of fleet creation.
Also, don't forget the 'clubhouse' mentality at work. Some people will create fleets just because they want to be in charge. Some will create fleets because they like to tinker with stuff. That won't stop just because of fleet advancement.
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Talking as if STO is the only MMO or is somehow not comparable to other MMOs is the biased argument. The definition of bias is resisting comparison and that would seem to be what you are doing - not I.
If you want to argue that I have bias then what exactly is that bias? It certainly isn't bias in favor of STO (because I play it) or WoW (because I roundly criticize Blizzard's bad decisions). Nor is it accurate to say that I'm biased against the system itself, because I got all the rewards in WoW, I just saw clearly that it was a bad system.
I'm experienced. I see the big picture, and I have a wide frame of reference. My opinion is not a biased one, it is an informed one. That I know it to be informed based on my knowledge of my experience is strictly objective. And my informed opinion is that this system is terrible.
This is an uninformed opinion. Responsibility had nothing to do with it; Blizzard implemented the Guild Perk system (the inspiration for the Fleet Credit system) while making other changes that dramatically reduced the role of responsibility in the game in general.
What exactly were the goals of Blizzard (or PWE) in implementing these systems isn't relevant. What is relevant is that these systems simply aren't good for the health of game communities. That's not an opinion, it's an objective fact based on hard facts - the decline in the number and diversity of guilds/fleets in games that implement such systems, and the resultant decline in the playerbase.
The proper analogy is New Coke. The fact that Coca-Cola launched it with the best of intentions and that many people liked it did not change the fact that many others did not, and although it did get some new people drinking New Coke, they were grossly outnumbered by those who stopped drinking Coke because they disliked the New version.
There's a further, ironic parallel. Coca-Cola's goal with New Coke was to make Coke more similar to Pepsi, when the entire appeal of Coke is that it is very different from Pepsi and most other cola products. It doesn't make sense to blindly emulate your competitor when your niche is defined by being different from them. Same with STO and WoW.
The "prisoner's dilemma" is also a choice. A similarly unfair one, I might add.
How does your grinding FC/FMs help new STO players?
I am concerned with the sheer burnout of the projects.
Our fleet is about 20 or so folks actively working the starbase when we can, but I am concerned the grind is starting to feel like a job.
One of our Fleet Admirals had a great idea at the onset, where he would hand out a $20 gift card to highest contributing member at each tier of the starbase...so we have some friendly and motivated competition. It has worked well and folks are working together to the fleet goals.
I understand the designers/developers want the tasks to take awhile so we dont max out the Starbases in a short time period...... maybe a solution is to increase more SB tiers that require less resources to achieve, in other words, more milestones at shorter intervals?
Thx
Delirium Tremens
Tier 4 Starbase, Tier 3 Embassy
http://dtfleet.com/
How about you join my fleet, and check us out
Seriously though, my Fleet bank is well stocked with equipment and supplies for new players to use, I have most marks of equipment in the bank. Plus other kinds of help are avalible from my fleet.
Grinding for fleet marks is one thing to do in game, seeing as currently I doubt I could fit anymore into our bank, and the new to STO members seem to be happy with how the fleet is treating them.
Fleet projects are long term, even Cryptic said so, 7 months at the earliest for a completed star base, personally I'm figuring double that for my fleet, but that is okay, we are casual and we don't care if we are first to complete our base, because we know we wont be.
STO at the end of the day, is simply a game, some people take it way too seriously, have fun, play at YOUR pace not at everyone else's pace, and even if you never get around to getting a Tier 2 let alone Tier 5 Star base, who cares.
Jim
The thread is about the fleet progression system not the FM tokens.
You gave a long response about how PWE and your fleet is awesome but you didn't answer my question. How does the fleet mark system help newbs?
Golf is a game.
I guess the fact a golf course has horrible layout, the management is unresponsive and the cafe serves stuff that's worse than airline food isn't a problem, because hey it's a game? They make me wait six hours for my scheduled tee time, and I have to walk a kilometer through boring and unsightly terrain to get between holes, but that's okay, because golf is a game, right?
Argument is silly and makes no sense except from the standpoint of trying to white-knight for PWE.
Seriously. Even the Fleet Bank lets you set limits on how much can be gained per day from it.
And the fact that there are no green fees and even most of the cafe's offerings are free wouldn't change the perception of the course?
It would be seen as a bad course simply because the course offers fancy clubs or tee shirts to those who play an ungodly number of rounds?
And people would complain to this level that those clubs took too much work to get, or that they sold other clubs that were seen as better clubs? Or that buying clubs from them somehow meant free upgrades for life as new tech clubs came out?
I think you need to work on your analogy....
There's plenty of starbase projects, and no one can have an infinite amount of stuff onhand at once. Everyone will get a crack at it.
It doesn't, but it gives them something to do and look forward to eventually once they do hit level 50 and make Vice Admiral, because after the month it takes to make VA, there really isn't much to do.
That is the most sensible idea to come out of any of these fleet discussions.
His does, but yours seem spot on.
Jim
If your estimate of a game is based on how many purples you can get with a certain amount of real-life cash then perhaps you need to re-examine your reasons for playing it and how it fits into your life.
Anyway, this thread is not about the monetization of this game. So why make it about that unless all you want to do is pump up PWE?
Then why say it does?
There doesn't seem to be a consistent theme to what you say other than white-knighting for PWE.
Fleet marks have nothing to do with that. Hence it does not help new players, unless they are willing to grind for less reward then in Episode missions etc.
However, as I stated, my bank is stocked, we help out new players, and in return their loyalty and donations to the fleet help us and themselves so that by the time they can get that fancy new ship as their level will be high enough they want they'll have it.
Fleets and their star bases can serve multiple roles you know? :rolleyes:
I apperciate something to do that is different and that there is a defined goal because it keeps me active, by keeping me active, I can help more new players through regular fleet things. And therefor things go full circle.
Jim