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Starbases Breaking Fleets?

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  • darkjeffdarkjeff Member Posts: 2,590 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    {UFP} is huge, and we seem to have practically zero problems filling the bars. We don't have rewards for high contributions, we actually had to implement a policy where if you have 30k more FC than the next guy, you're supposed to stop so other people have a chance to earn FC.
    If you don't care about sharing and teamwork why are you even in a fleet?

    Wouldn't it be the ones taking all the Fleet Credits from easy contributions (Expertise, EV via Supplies) be the ones not sharing? Everyone else has to contribute more valuable resources to earn FC. Like DOffs, which are currently ridiculously expensive.
  • plb1982plb1982 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    At Tier 0, there is a race to donate... so some people get left out, take their ball and go to their own starbase.

    ...But once Tier 1... 2... 3... rolls around, there won't be much of a race anymore. Everyone will have their opportunity to contribute. And once the folks who left hit Tier 1 or 2 with their "personal" bases, they'll realize how hard the road ahead of them is, and ask to get back into a bigger fleet.


    ...Patience, people.
  • spacecrazyspacecrazy Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    This seems more like growing pains.
  • truewarpertruewarper Member Posts: 930 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    Making a Starbase is always is....
    spacecrazy wrote: »
    This seems more like growing pains.
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  • anagrojanewayanagrojaneway Member Posts: 48 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    plb1982 wrote: »
    At Tier 0, there is a race to donate... so some people get left out, take their ball and go to their own starbase.

    ...But once Tier 1... 2... 3... rolls around, there won't be much of a race anymore. Everyone will have their opportunity to contribute. And once the folks who left hit Tier 1 or 2 with their "personal" bases, they'll realize how hard the road ahead of them is, and ask to get back into a bigger fleet.


    ...Patience, people.

    Agreed, what I see is :

    BRAND NEW SHINY FEATURE => EVERYONE WANTS TO CONTRIBUTE AT ONCE ==> SUCH LOW REQUIREMENTS (10 of a rare commodity? 1000 Dilith?) = people are jumping over themselves to get in before the buzzer.

    I think it will even out once we start progressing, and also when people start catching on about what to have on hand. Yesterday my fleet sat on a mission for hours because there were no Green diplomats - I have destroyed more of those in the past for dilith than I could count. (Side note, they REALLY need to up the available DOff space - let us purchase more, my collection was already bursting, and I just don't have the room to keep more on hand for these projects without ripping apart my personal collection for space).
  • macfellymacfelly Member Posts: 107 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    As I've mentioned to several people in my fleet, right now its fast and furious but in a month we'll be begging people to contribute. If people are leaving because stuff gets filled up fast then maybe you don't really want them around in the first place. When I first heard the details I thought it would be hard to get marks, and it really isn't if you're patient.
    Apparently not loyal enough :|
  • onenonlydrockonenonlydrock Member Posts: 132 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    As a member of a small fleet who thought I would be doing a lion's share of the resource gathering and grinding...

    I like this system!

    My only problem is the special projects. Costs 600 fleet marks, the duty officers needed cost way too much on the open market, and all for a pathetic 5 xp for tac, sci and eng. Pathetic! They're not worth our time unless one's really desperate for Fleet Credits.

    As for the rest... perfectly fine. The reason why I like this system is that it gives me time to rest. I don't feel pressured to have to constantly grind to get my starbase up and running. The fact that a couple of my fleetmates beat me to the punch is a good thing. It allows me to either rest up or gather resources for the next project.

    I can see where it is a pain in the TRIBBLE for large fleets, where there are so many members that there's no chance in hell of making a contribution. Then again, the fact that they have enough members to make the special project grinds feasible should more than make up for it.

    I just wish we got more XP for it. Oh well.
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  • darkjeffdarkjeff Member Posts: 2,590 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    My only problem is the special projects. Costs 600 fleet marks, the duty officers needed cost way too much on the open market, and all for a pathetic 5 xp for tac, sci and eng. Pathetic! They're not worth our time unless one's really desperate for Fleet Credits.

    I think you have the purpose backwards. :P
    The point of the special projects is to produce Fleet Credits, not Starbase XP. It just gives those who didn't get to contribute to the normal projects a chance to get Fleet Credits.
  • onenonlydrockonenonlydrock Member Posts: 132 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    darkjeff wrote: »
    I think you have the purpose backwards. :P
    The point of the special projects is to produce Fleet Credits, not Starbase XP. It just gives those who didn't get to contribute to the normal projects a chance to get Fleet Credits.

    Oh, I got it.

    But come on... 5 XP? Even for a fleet credit grinder that's pathetic.

    Not to mention it takes a few hours to gather up 600 fleet marks.
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  • alarikunalarikun Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    Oh, I got it.

    But come on... 5 XP? Even for a fleet credit grinder that's pathetic.

    Not to mention it takes a few hours to gather up 600 fleet marks.

    A few hours? For one person maybe, but for a group, it's an hour, maybe 2, tops.

    In addition, part if it is for those people who grinded out fleet credits, only to find that the tap was full on the other projects.
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  • kronkstomperkronkstomper Member Posts: 4 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    My fleet does not have that problem as we are more concerned about what needs to be done and not really who is putting how much of what.
    Its a game people the company goes belly up and where done leave the competive TRIBBLE kicking for the real world lord knows there is plenty out there to spare.

    besides to get the really good fleet stuff you have to BUY things from the ZEN store no suprise there so in the end you will be shopping with ZEN and if this hurts your ego then i know your not in my fleet.
  • furlong359furlong359 Member Posts: 146 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    My fleet is small enough, that its a joke about the leaderboards and whose on top, it doesnt really matter. On the other hand..the constant grinding is getting alittle outta hand and we havent even made a dent in anything...yar
  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,963 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    spacecrazy wrote: »
    This seems more like growing pains.
    Not sure yet, but it could be. People sit on bridge officer skill points, pardon, expertise basically since they became Vice Admirals. This is the first expertise sink the game has, and it will take some time to deplete the accumulated wealth. But once that has happened, I don't think people will have so many problems.
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  • srgtburglarsrgtburglar Member Posts: 138 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    malienwolf wrote: »
    At first, I thought Starbases were the most amazing thing ever. However, I've come to realize a pocket of the community just can't handle this feature. What I'm about to describe is from my experiences and may not necessarily be the same for everyone, or anyone else. However, I think it's something that should be stated none the less.

    Quite simply, I'm watching people fight over who gets to contribute. Let's say a project requires Fleet Marks, Shield Generators, Tactical DOff's, Dilithium and Expertise. Fleet Marks requires a person to 'grind' for them, i.e. participate in fleet events. This is a good thing, as one individual is not likely to donate the full amount in an instant. Shield Generators are easy to replicate, but reward very little fleet credits. Not many people are going to focus on this, but the problem isn't completing it since it's as easy as it is. The DOff's can be expensive, especially right now when everyone is buying them up for their starbases. Further, DOff's reward very few fleet credits, making the reward sub-standard at best. Dilithium and Expertise however, is likely to be capped out as soon as the project comes up. Almost everyone I know has an over abundance of Expertise, and members of fleets are starting to fight over who gets to contribute how much. The leader board is causing so much competition, I'm watching certain fleets completely break apart.

    Does anyone else see these issues? Should we request that the leader board be removed to cease competition? Should there be a cap on how much any one individual can donate? Personally, I have no suggestions here. I only see the problem, but I find it to be an important one.

    Post your thoughts. They are appreciated.
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  • darkjeffdarkjeff Member Posts: 2,590 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    But come on... 5 XP? Even for a fleet credit grinder that's pathetic.

    Not to mention it takes a few hours to gather up 600 fleet marks.

    But you're still thinking of it as "This a goal I need to fill", which is backwards. You're not supposed to see what you can contribute and dedicate yourself to filling it. They're there so that you can get something out of excess resources. They're like selling the Academy event particles because you don't have enough to buy dilithium, a consolation prize for missing the window of opportunity.

    I believe they're primarily aimed for the giant Fleets, where there's more resources than areas to contribute. They're for all those members who missed the chance to contribute to the actual projects, so they can still earn Fleet Credits. That's why they're so short (48 in one day!) while awarding so little XP. The low XP says "If you can't do this, that's fine, it's not worth a lot anyway".

    The {UFP} go through maybe 30 a day. There's never an issue with "Oh man, we need to grind for more X!" because while you are running out of X, somebody else is going "Finally! A chance to turn my X into Fleet Credits!" I don't even bother to keep DOffs to contribute other than Colonists and Refugees because every other specialization requirement fills in seconds.

    While a smaller Fleet may struggle to get 3 special projects done a day (on top of keeping up the normal projects), a large Fleet maybe effortlessly get 30 done. At 5 XP each, that's 135 XP more per day (150 vs 15). At 10 XP each, it would be 270 XP more per day (300 vs 30). At 100 XP each, that would be 2700 XP more per day.

    The more xp the special projects give, the greater the disparity between larger Fleets and smaller Fleets would be. The lower the XP, the smaller the lead the larger Fleets can gain from special projects.
  • onenonlydrockonenonlydrock Member Posts: 132 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    darkjeff wrote: »
    But you're still thinking of it as "This a goal I need to fill", which is backwards. You're not supposed to see what you can contribute and dedicate yourself to filling it. They're there so that you can get something out of excess resources. They're like selling the Academy event particles because you don't have enough to buy dilithium, a consolation prize for missing the window of opportunity.

    I believe they're primarily aimed for the giant Fleets, where there's more resources than areas to contribute. They're for all those members who missed the chance to contribute to the actual projects, so they can still earn Fleet Credits. That's why they're so short (48 in one day!) while awarding so little XP. The low XP says "If you can't do this, that's fine, it's not worth a lot anyway".

    The {UFP} go through maybe 30 a day. There's never an issue with "Oh man, we need to grind for more X!" because while you are running out of X, somebody else is going "Finally! A chance to turn my X into Fleet Credits!" I don't even bother to keep DOffs to contribute other than Colonists and Refugees because every other specialization requirement fills in seconds.

    While a smaller Fleet may struggle to get 3 special projects done a day (on top of keeping up the normal projects), a large Fleet maybe effortlessly get 30 done. At 5 XP each, that's 135 XP more per day (150 vs 15). At 10 XP each, it would be 270 XP more per day (300 vs 30). At 100 XP each, that would be 2700 XP more per day.

    The more xp the special projects give, the greater the disparity between larger Fleets and smaller Fleets would be. The lower the XP, the smaller the lead the larger Fleets can gain from special projects.

    Then there's gotta be a better way for smaller fleets to keep up.
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  • darkjeffdarkjeff Member Posts: 2,590 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    Then there's gotta be a better way for smaller fleets to keep up.
    I don't understand what your complaint is now. You originally complained that the special projects required too many resources for too low a reward.

    It was explained that you have it backwards. The XP is not the reward, it is not the objective. The objective is to spend resources. It functions perfectly in allowing people to spend resources (thereby earning Fleet Credits) while giving a minor bonus to Starbase progression.

    Why does there need to be a "way for smaller fleets to keep up" at all? If 5 player fleets progressed the same as 500 player fleets, that would mean the efforts and contributions of 495 players are marginalized.

    What are the smaller fleets supposed to be "keeping up with" anyway?
  • edude3edude3 Member Posts: 11 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    Several points:

    Very soon the players who have been contributing resources to the fleet projects will start to run out of them and will have to grind to get more of them.

    Also as the devs stated and was seen on tribble higher tier projects require more resources and the donation levels of all of the players will become more balanced.

    The donation levels will also become more balanced when more people who reach level 50 will be able to stock up and save to donate to the projects.

    I also believe that the amounts needed for fleet projects should be adjusted based on the size of the fleet. Where the values along with a size check will be looked at every 4-8 days as to prevent mass exodus of a fleet right before a size check so the fleet would barley have to give.

    I also believe that there should be a donation set up where you can designate what you want to donate to the new project before it comes up so when it comes up those items get donated in equal proportion with everybody else in the fleet. I want this because what if your fleet keeps on getting new projects at 4 am you would still be able to donate while you are asleep.
  • zodrauzodrau Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    Oh, I got it.

    But come on... 5 XP? Even for a fleet credit grinder that's pathetic.

    Not to mention it takes a few hours to gather up 600 fleet marks.

    Paraphrasing the description for the 5XP/5XP/5XP 'special' projects:

    'To ensure large fleets have the ability to generate fleet credits'

    Their only purpose is to give more of the members in larger fleets an opportunity to get fleet credits because the larger fleets will naturally fill up their main projects much faster than a small fleet could. As others previously stated, the 5XP/5XP/5XP is not the goal here. If yours is a small fleet that is having a hard time completing the main projects in a timely fashion, you'd be wasting your resources on these 'make work' special projects (that are spelled out to be used by larger fleets).

    The XP reward is so low because larger fleets would be getting a huge advantage from it if it was higher, as also previously mentioned they can do 40+ of these per day.

    To reiterate...If yours is a small fleet, ignore these 5XP X3 projects and only contribute to your main projects.
  • jim940jim940 Member Posts: 178 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    Personally so far, there are plenty of options in my Fleet to donate. Eventually I hope everyone does as much as they can for the upgrades as they become avalible. IF there is a rush for someone to get FC's then its simple, ask the other members not to donate so that the one who is lacking can pick up their slack.

    But with the requirements for higher projects, I don't see that as a problem.
    I think the OP is referring to the fact that some people don't even get the opportunity to contribute as by the time they try to contribute all the slots are full. Don't forget that when you complete a fleet mission it takes time, 20 hours or so, for the base improvement to be 'built'.

    I think eventually that wont be a problem, the reserves of stuff that were not being used will be gone and then they'll have plenty of time.

    Jim
  • rottonsaztanrottonsaztan Member Posts: 22 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    darkjeff wrote: »
    I don't understand what your complaint is now. You originally complained that the special projects required too many resources for too low a reward.

    It was explained that you have it backwards. The XP is not the reward, it is not the objective. The objective is to spend resources. It functions perfectly in allowing people to spend resources (thereby earning Fleet Credits) while giving a minor bonus to Starbase progression.

    Why does there need to be a "way for smaller fleets to keep up" at all? If 5 player fleets progressed the same as 500 player fleets, that would mean the efforts and contributions of 495 players are marginalized.

    What are the smaller fleets supposed to be "keeping up with" anyway
    ?


    I am one of the guys who lead a smaller fleet, lead as in, we are , as far as we are concered, equals.
    That said, you ask what do smaller fleets need to keep up with anyway?

    Ill respond to this, Special projects within the process are time related, this is what smaller groups need to stay in front of, as well as have the feeling they are " Up to par" with other fleets.

    I have to admit keeping up with bigger fleets is stupid for our fleet, its just the logic and facts of it, and it dosent bother us because we seem to be on track, but then again, being an older group, we are on our own projection, and we are proud to get it done as a group, small or not.

    However I see no need to put folks down because your fleet happens to be bigger, it dosent make you any better than a small group, further just becuse you have more members, dosent mean you should just have it all whipped out because your members who are older to the game got a bunch or stuff to donate, where others dont!!!

    Come Come now, let us not be a bunch of eliteist.....or w/e its spelled.
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  • rickpaaarickpaaa Member Posts: 637 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    I think that the system is unfair at the outset, but it gets better over time.

    One thing I have noticed is that fleets where the bank is well controlled by higher ranking fleet officers (as it should be), those resources which were banked for the day of release of Season Six were used for the great benefit of those with the power to withdraw them, and at the extreme disadvantage of everyone else. Also, only officers can start a new fleet project, and this works greatly to the advantage of those officers, and greatly to the disadvantage to everyone else.

    This is not the fault of the officers, who likely have the good motive of expediting fleet advancement. The devil is in the design. The good news is that the fleet elite doesn't have infinite resources, and soon everyone will be able to rack up fleet credits. Will you be able to buy a fleet ship if you're not of the inner circle? That depends on your fleet, and some people may wait forever.
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  • rajadatrajadat Member Posts: 9 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    Just a Random thought : Politics -> Competition -> Motivation -> Success lol :)
  • darkjeffdarkjeff Member Posts: 2,590 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    Ill respond to this, Special projects within the process are time related, this is what smaller groups need to stay in front of, as well as have the feeling they are " Up to par" with other fleets.

    I have to admit keeping up with bigger fleets is stupid for our fleet, its just the logic and facts of it, and it dosent bother us because we seem to be on track, but then again, being an older group, we are on our own projection, and we are proud to get it done as a group, small or not.
    What's with this "up to par"? What are we keeping up with?

    Starbase construction time? Tier 1 is 10,000xp. We make 1000xp in 20 hours from a normal project, so 50xp/hour. It would take 200 hours if you don't do any special projects. If you manage absolutely zero downtime (not a single wasted second) on special projects, you can get an extra 10xp per hour by running 40 projects every 20 hours, for a total of 60xp/hour. It would take 166.7 hours instead, 16.6% faster.

    A larger fleet that have members on 24/7 who can immediately launch and fill the quota would be able to get at most one tier 33 hours ahead of a smaller fleet. Good for them, they're insane. They're putting in 40 TIMES more resources to be 0.16 times faster.

    Available resources? That doesn't even scale up well. A fleet that's twice as big will need to do twice as much to make equal amounts of stuff available to its members. Assuming that a fleet twice as big manages to be 0.16 times faster than that smaller fleet, once they've reached there they need to do twice as much production so that everybody will have access to as much resources as the smaller fleet, and that production time cannot be reduced - it will take them twice as long. That's either balanced, or advantageous to the smaller fleet.
    However I see no need to put folks down because your fleet happens to be bigger, it dosent make you any better than a small group, further just becuse you have more members, dosent mean you should just have it all whipped out because your members who are older to the game got a bunch or stuff to donate, where others dont!!!
    Whoa whoa whoa, what are you trying to say here? It sounds like you're accusing me of "putting down" smaller fleets, when I have done absolutely no such thing.

    The idea of "we should be able to keep up" is ridiculous. Special projects give the opportunity to invest 4000% more resources to be 16.6% faster. Saying "we should be able to keep up" means that you think investing more resources should result in even less gain than that. Does that sound like a reasonable demand to anybody?

    That idea is what I'm putting down. It's ridiculous.
  • jim940jim940 Member Posts: 178 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    I am one of the guys who lead a smaller fleet, lead as in, we are , as far as we are concered, equals.
    That said, you ask what do smaller fleets need to keep up with anyway?

    I don't think we need to keep up. Once we get there, the share of Fleet Credits would be better for our smaller membership to spend.

    Also, so far, we have done as many projects as humanly possible in the lower teirs, mainly cause of our combined effort of a small membership. Plus the amount of left over resources that we had no use for just sitting in our personal and fleet banks.
    rickpaaa wrote: »
    One thing I have noticed is that fleets where the bank is well controlled by higher ranking fleet officers (as it should be)

    I personally have the bank set up so the higher the fleet rank the more you can take out, if even a new member wants to pull 50 of something we need for a fleet project by all means.

    Anything in the bank, in any fleet bank, lets be honest about this, was garbage that the person putting it in didn't want in the first place. So other then to control the amount of withdrawls especially of newer members who may abuse it. What does it matter if they benefit the fleet and themselves by taking things?
    rickpaaa wrote: »
    This is not the fault of the officers, who likely have the good motive of expediting fleet advancement.

    It is their fault as well. You don't have to max everything out each and every moment you see something avalible. You can wait and see if others can help too.

    While it may be a race to finish for some, the finish line slated to be a minimum of 7 months from now, isn't going to mind if your a week or two late.
    rickpaaa wrote: »
    Will you be able to buy a fleet ship if you're not of the inner circle? That depends on your fleet, and some people may wait forever.

    Well then why stay there and not simply move to a fleet that you'll be able to get something out of?

    Jim
  • dazzajdazzaj Member Posts: 74 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    malienwolf wrote: »
    members of fleets are starting to fight over who gets to contribute how much. The leader board is causing so much competition, I'm watching certain fleets completely break apart.

    Does anyone else see these issues?

    That is quite sad that this is happening, as from what i can see the fleet base system is set up for Teamwork primarily. "Work together for the benefit of all in the fleet."

    I can't say my fleet has the issues that you have outlined here, we have even been encouraging a bit of competition (Special ranks awarded for getting a certain amount on the leader board and so on) and nobody yet has started fighting over who gets to contribute. (and we are only a few clicks away from getting Tier 1)

    It just seems to be that different players react differently.
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  • askrayaskray Member Posts: 3,329 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    I concur this is quite sad to see happening. :( For my fleet, we're using the leaderboard as a way to see who actually contributes and haven't run into any problems of people not being able to contribute that want too. We're finding everyone is working together to get the necessary points and so fourth.

    I like dazzaj's idea of a little competition with special ranks and such. Might have to pass that along to our fleet hehe :)
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  • resoundingenvoyresoundingenvoy Member Posts: 439
    edited July 2012
    Honestly, I wouldn't mind improvements to the system, but I have no idea what those would be.

    I'm sorry people are having infighting over who gets to contribute. In my fleet a number of people are left out a large chunk of the time because of when the fleet projected are started. There are just a few insanely crazy people out there that fill the orders in a space of hours while most of us are in bed.

    I hate to be rude, but if your having a conflict with your fleet that sounds like a fleet problem. If you can think of a nice way to fix it without busting the rest of our chops, Great! However, looking to Cryptic to fix your problem sounds a lot like a solution that's going to bite the rest of us in the posterior.
  • edited July 2012
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  • foundrelicfoundrelic Member Posts: 1,380 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    My fleet just made the EXP requirements for tier one.

    there are THREE Upgrade missions (THat we've seen so far) to actually UNLOCK it and they all require PHENOMENAL contributions.


    Single player fleets can't accomplish this in anything resembling a reasonable amount of time.

    Larger fleets will still allow everyone to contribute. You're not going to get 100k fleet points in one go, but really you SHOULDN'T be earning that much in a single run anyway.

    Besdies this, once fleets start hitting the higher tiers thing WILL balance more as the costs increase even more.
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