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Yes, another torpedo boat question!!
darramouss1
Member Posts: 1,811 Arc User
Trying to decide whether I arm my ship with quantums or transphasics. Either way I can get them to fire one per second (without boff abilities like HYT or Spread) with very good reliability.
Here are my pros and cons for each.
Quantum pro - when they hit unshielded targets they're inflicting upwards of 4,000 per hit. I've landed one or two 20,000 criticals, too.
Quantum con - when hitting a shielded target they're landing between 400-500 per hit.
Transphasic pro - when hitting a shielded target they're landing around 1,100 to 1,300 per hit.
Transphasic con - when hitting unshielded targets they're doing around 2,000-2,300 per hit.
I'm able to strip shields with some regularity, but the victim is always just a 90 degree turn from having shields.
Based on the above numbers, which do you think is more valuable, quantums or transphasics?
Here are my pros and cons for each.
Quantum pro - when they hit unshielded targets they're inflicting upwards of 4,000 per hit. I've landed one or two 20,000 criticals, too.
Quantum con - when hitting a shielded target they're landing between 400-500 per hit.
Transphasic pro - when hitting a shielded target they're landing around 1,100 to 1,300 per hit.
Transphasic con - when hitting unshielded targets they're doing around 2,000-2,300 per hit.
I'm able to strip shields with some regularity, but the victim is always just a 90 degree turn from having shields.
Based on the above numbers, which do you think is more valuable, quantums or transphasics?
Post edited by darramouss1 on
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In PVP, between these two, the transphasics are superior: most other players are going to drop as soon as their shields go down. In PVE, when you're pounding borg who have light shields but tons of hull, Quantum torpedoes would be superior.
Transphasic torps will be getting the 20% shield bypass increased to 40% shield bypass.
I fired at point blank range at a klink cruiser's port side for almost a full minute with three phased polaron cannons that were either on rapid fire or scatter volley due to tactical initiative. My cannons do between 1,800 to 3,000 DPS, depending on energy and other boff abilities and I didn't even break through his shield.
If that's the state of PvP then I think it's so broken it will take forever to fix. Seeing as how the vast majority of players don't PvP, then the time wasted to fix PvP could go to so much end of game content, new episodes, etc.
Mistake #1: You stayed on one target by yourself for a full minute without taking notice of buffs he was using (EPTS, Extends, Tac Teams, RSP, etc) and adapting accordingly.
Mistake #2: You didn't coordinate fire with your team, treating it like it was some haphazard PvE match against useless AI's that can't think.
Mistake #3: You anticipated that because you can damage AI ships that do not have the same skill builds and team builds of your enemies, that by default you can rip them apart in the same fashion. The truth is, AIs rotate the same 4-5 skills whereas humans have a pool of 2+ dozen to cycle against you.
I don't mean to sound rude, but you can't honestly expect to have done any better against competitive, intelligent players without even accomodating these things? Of course you're not going to get much done in PvP with tactics like that.
I could have saved you the heartache if you'd come on here and asked if doing that would be of any success in PvP.
The PvP climate does have a large number of players. For Cryptic to ignore that would be suicide for the game, as PvE and scripted content only goes so far, in any game. Particularly a persistent world.
But for future reference... I don't care if you had 50 Gal-X Spinal Lances on a 30sec CD at point blank unloading all at once on 1 enemy who's at 1% HP... 1 skill will have rendered that entire volley obsolete, and buy him the time to be healed back to 100%.
PvP isn't about a DPS race.
It's about situational awareness, tactical and strategic thinking, teamwork, reflex, proper build design, identification of BOTH your skills AND your enemy's... the list goes on.
It is not PvE where you can spam the space bar and expect to come out on top every single time. Same rules don't apply.
That does NOT mean it is broken.
It just means you did it wrong.
"Yes, I fly a Galaxy-X... and yes, I just 1-shotted you with it." -- Alcione@Hakaishin
How do you think people with less skill will fare, and how encouraging would it be for a relatively new player? To have the entire PvP section fenced off like this shows a broken element.
4 players concentrating him... You missed in that 50 spinal lances can hit a player simultaneously and 1 skill will render that entire volley obsolete.
Your homework... a test of your ability to beat another player, and a very simple test at that... is to tell me what skill that is.
And no, it is not a trick question.
It is even a skill you can double-up on to cut the cooldown timer in half. Something many players in PvP do, when they assume their build will be one of focus fire.
Come on, use your head. You can't honestly tell me you don't have any depth to tactical knowledge or ability to learn?
I honestly don't care what people of less skill fare or think.
And I have very good reason not to.
You don't learn unless you fail.
Those like you enter PvP once and make a stupid mistake (and yes... what you did was retardedly stupid. I'm sorry. That's just being honest), and suddenly think it's all broken and doomed.
You don't even stop to think, "Hey... maybe it was something that I did wrong, instead of design or someone else?"
Without that, the less-skilled players never get skilled. They never learn. They never grow. They never adapt.
They are never a challenge.
And they never should have touched PvP in ANY game to begin with, because the same rules apply.
I'm sorry. What you suggest is to instantly take a completely unskilled player with no knowledge whatsoever of tactical or strategic interest (you), and trying to instantly and without training or experience put them on the same level as the rest of us.
That's like putting 2 cars in a race, one with a twin V-12 engine and nitros, and the other with a V4, and expecting a fair fight.
You're ridiculous if you're actually serious about what you're proposing.
"Yes, I fly a Galaxy-X... and yes, I just 1-shotted you with it." -- Alcione@Hakaishin
PvP might be more populated if its core crowd wasn't so full of itself.
Now, back to the original question, a few numbers (all Torpedo Launchers below are Mk XII White):
Photon DPV against Hull: 2980
Photon DPS against Hull: 458.46
Photon DPV against Shields: 298
Photon DPS against Shields: 45.84
Quantum DPV against Hull: 3313
Quantum DPS against Hull: 389.76
Quantum DPV against Shields: 331
Quantum DPS against Shields: 38.98
Transphasic DPV against Hull: 2155
Transphasic DPS against Hull: 205.24
Transphasic DPV against Shields: 431
Transphasic DPS against Shields: 41.05
See, even against Shielded targets, less DPS than Photons and not that much more than Quantums. Sure, they do the most DPV against Shielded targets, but does that really matter?
But there's a rumour that they'll be buffed to 40% Shield Penetration soon, at which point they'll be more viable.
Until then, Transphasics are pretty pointless.
1 8-beam cruiser with 2 instances of FAW. The same cruiser is also packing a Commander and LTC Engineer stations, enabling it to easily tank the entire volley of spams without so much as breaking a sweat while it does its job.
I, by myself, just rendered your entire team's spam completely and totally obsolete with 1 skill (technically 2, but the same skill repeated).
Easy damn counter... you can't see that? Come on. That was the easiest and most ridiculous idea you could have used to laugh at its inaccuracy.
If that's your assessment of PvP, given it is completely false, your follow up statement stands invalid.
"Yes, I fly a Galaxy-X... and yes, I just 1-shotted you with it." -- Alcione@Hakaishin
All MMOs suffer from attrition. That's a fact. Whether it be due to players moving on to other MMOs, stopping gaming altogether, or even dying is irrelevant. The only way a game can survive is to attract new players, the minimum number, of course, being equal to those that leave.
F2P is a really good method of capturing new market share. It enables people to engage in the game without having to lay down any form of investment. The bane of F2P, however, is that people can play and leave, thus using resources without ever having paid a cent.
Most new people are more likely to reserve their spending until they're sure that they wish to engage in the game for a set period of time. The length of this period is not really definable. It's a non-consciously determined amount of time that varies from player to player. Once they decide they're going to stay, at least 'for a while', they are more likely to spend.
What keeps players? Engaging storylines, fun action, a sense of progression and accessibility. When you have a game where the PvP is unaccessible, except to an elite group, well then you're starting to limit your potential market, after all, PvP is one of the main features of any MMO. You're going to have people who discover the game and relish the thought of PvP in the Star Trek universe only to be slapped down so hard that it leaves a sour taste in their mouth.
Can you understand how that experience may sour a new player's opinion of the game enough that they may decide to a) not invest in the game, or b) leave?
Let's equate this to sport. Many many moons ago I played very high level hockey in Australia. Not good enough to be international grade, but very high level. If people who were interested in hockey had to play their first game against players of my caliber, well, they never would have come back. Instead, they compete in levels more akin to their skill so they can learn, progress and achieve.
Until STO PvP has this, then any new player looking in to the game will count PvP as a detractor.
Why do you think there are motions to fix PvP? Companies don't spend money fixing things unless they're broken.
As an aside, I love all things Trek, and I don't appreciate game-play that revolves around repeating the same skill time and again to fix or survive any scenario. It's not Trek, and the game should have no place for it. Can you imagine how boring the shows would have been if everything revolved around the same skills which appeared every episode? "We're being pursued, Spock? Well then, let's just vent warp plasma again. Worked the last 248 times!!!" "The Romulans are attacking us!! Quick, Mr Data. Reverse shield polarity over and over. That'll ensure our survival!!" How utterly droll.
Because for 2 years we've had the same maps, same modes, same skills, same bugs, and really the same old useful ships (the new Akira and Odyssey being the exceptions) for the last two years, completely unchanging.
Yeah, if there wasn't a call to fix that, I'd probably TRIBBLE myself at the sheer stupidity of my audience.
That said, someone who's only pvp'd once really has no place trying to tell me about it. I promise, I know a little more on the subject than you do. Your words are a bit invalid.
The problems PvP faces (and yes, there are problems, I do not deny that - just not what you claim they are) are better known to the PvP audience than you.
Someone from outside trying to fix it is no different than an idiot on a high horse telling me to go 6,000 miles away and kill innocent people in the Middle East because the USA and UK from the outside thought they could live their lives "better".
That aside, I do not PvP to role play telling Spock to perform a function. Sorry. I don't play a Star Trek game one-handed because I'm whacking off trying to imagine myself in a "real life" Captain chair. I play one-handed because I took shrapnel which destroyed my left arm while deployed.
I PvP because I enjoy a competitive game. I enjoy a challenge. I enjoy having to actually think about what I'm doing over spamming the space bar (or in many STFs, having my 5 year old son do it while I'm on the other monitor watching Netflix). I particularly enjoy the naval combat aspect of this game's PvP, because it adds an element of strategic and tactical depth not present in many other environments (an element you advocate removing).
Many, if not most, PvPers share these sentiments.
Not yours.
"Yes, I fly a Galaxy-X... and yes, I just 1-shotted you with it." -- Alcione@Hakaishin
Wow, awesome stats, thank you!!
The ship I've built is pretty much firing one torpedo per second of all types. I guess that makes the DPV = DPS.
That being the case, photons are out of the question. It comes down to having 1200 more damage to the hull (quantum over transphasic) or 100 more damage when shielded (transphasic over quantum). That would mean that one quantum to the hull equates to the extra damage done by 12 transphasics when shields are up.
Quantums all the way, it seems. I really hope the buff they give to transphasics makes them a seriously considerable option.
Admiral Federation Tactical Corps
>Star Fleet Elite Force< Click if you are ready to boldy go where no one has gone before.
Seek not the final frontier if you fear the unknown. -Admiral Trimen Ranger
Hey, hakaishinlegion, surely getting this done to you would attract new players?
The magic to doing so? Treating it like a friendly game.
Ranting about how something is OP or broken, not so much.
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
Problem #1: A lot of folks, particularly Starfleet, don't start PvPing until they hit near max or max level.
This is like skipping all the lower competitions and expecting to do well because they practiced for years.
Most folks asking for PvP to be fixed are avid PvPers. Most other people are happy doing their own thing.
It's also not, generally, how STO PvP works. You are either ignoring or missing the bit about tactics and situational awareness.
A GOOD PvPer changes what skills she is using in response to changing circumstances. A GREAT PvPer chances BOFFs and equipment to handle different circumstances and tailors her play.
(I'm only good -- anything more than a few gear changes or moving seats around for STF vs. PvP is a bit beyond me)
Also, PvP in STO depends HIGHLY on teamwork. I'd happily field a team of coordinated, experienced PvPers who are used to how one another works all in white MK X gear with no special consoles against a PUG in purple MK XII.
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
To my knowledge the only way to reduce Torpedo recast is Projectile DOFFs:
3 of them give:
- 51.2% chance per tube not to reduce recast.
- 38.4% chance to reduce it once.
- 9.6% chance to reduce it twice.
- .8% chance to reduce it thrice.
How many tubes are you using?
Ignoring the PvP trolls.
I actually remember when I first started, far worse happened to me.
Remember, I stated you do not improve without failure.
That said, I've failed a LOT in my time.
And I've gotten a LOT better.
I don't quit after I see something I don't like. I don't quit after losing once. I don't quit because I think something is broken.
I fail. I look at what happened. If I can, I'll talk to who beat me and find out what I did wrong, and what they did right. I'll learn. I'll practice. I'll communicate.
I'll improve.
In 2 years, you can bet I've lost a number of matches. I've no shame in admitting that. Some losses were so bad that I didn't feel like ever touching the game at all again.
But I did.
And I'm better for it.
Interesting you make such a comment to try to make some snide jab at me... fact of the matter is that it only notates what makes me a good PvPer, in my ability to learn.
"Yes, I fly a Galaxy-X... and yes, I just 1-shotted you with it." -- Alcione@Hakaishin
If you want to use transphasics, you have to use the rapid reloads as they also have an 8.5 second reload. Any longer and you have to have more than one doff trigger to keep the torps rolling.
Granted, there are times when you're unlucky and you don't get a doff trigger, but seeing as every tube has three doff rolls every time a torpedo is fired, you're betting on 1 in 6 rolls hitting before its that torpedo's turn again.
Do you actually think this statement makes any sense? The only thing cryptic is trying to do is add some more depth and a bit of balance to the pvp side. It isn't broken. Any mmo you play, if you pvp, you will come across a player that can tank 2,3 sometimes 4 other players. Why? Because they know exactly what you can and cannot do and how to counter it. They have all the best "gear" and that gives them the extra edge they need to do this. They practice over and over and it has become second nature to them.
Honestly can you really say pve is any different? Sure maybe the content changes but your skills are the same. You are using the same tactics over and over in pve and because you can't enter pvp and smash face you assume it's "broken".
You need to realize that in any mmo the best players are those that pvp. Don't get me wrong I'm not saying that players that pve aren't good but it is much harder to fight a thinking opponent that can change tactics at any moment than it is to fight a scripted opponent.
so firing one quantum doesn't reset the identical torpedo type cooldown on the other tubes? interesting.
of course, I use everything by using warhead yield chambers. hargh'peng, plasma, transphasic, quantum up front, with tricobalt and photons aft. high yield plasmas and tricobalt devices provide the entertainment. I can easily drive multiple rapid cooldowns via my doffs so that the hargh'peng and tricobalt devices are ready much sooner. then there is the KHG bonus and rule 62 bonus (for the more dedicated), along with firing from cloak... all of which I'm sure Starfleet will get before long for a mere handful of c points.
IKS Korrasami (Fleet B'rel Bird of Prey Retrofit T5-U)
While you're absolutely correct, you're wasting your breath.
Even walking out of the PvPvsPve debate (which he started... strangely if he did not all he had to do was say, "I don't enjoy PvP" as opposed to insulting us off the bat, prompting my response to begin with), He's displayed already that the fact he stayed 60 seconds on 1 target and even after seeing 4 players focusing him for that duration, it didn't occur to him...
"...Hey, this guy isn't going down, his entire team must be focusing him to keep him up along with a REALLY nice implementation of tact... Maybe we should change targets suddenly and without warning, to catch their healers and tanks off guard and burn another target?"
Nope... instead, 60 seconds (which in PvP is an INSANELY LONG amount of time) of spamming the spacebar thinking the system is broken without even stopping to think at all, but more importantly on the notation that maybe he's doing something wrong?
No strategic or tactical awareness at all.
Probably had 2+ Extends on him, 2x RSPs, 2x EPtS, 2x Tac Teams, and any number of heals between 5 ships. Yet didn't occur at all to, now that all this attention is given to 1 target to keep them alive (as is standard PvP tactic in ANY game), to try to catch your enemy off guard by making a coordinated target-swap to a random target.
Hell, I've seen PuG parties pull this off, there is no excuse.
That one teeny little no-brainer would have altered the course of the entire match.
But we're trying to explain PvP to an RPer... it's like trying to explain the intricacies of the human mind's ability to analyze and defeat a problem to an insect.
This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Perfect World Entertainment Community Rules and Policies. ~kalecto
"Yes, I fly a Galaxy-X... and yes, I just 1-shotted you with it." -- Alcione@Hakaishin
I personally find this remark offensive and uncalled for. This right here is why I don't have anything to do with pvp or let my children play this game no matter how much they beg me.
_____________________________________________________________
Thankfully I find the very notion of being offended by words to be ridiculous in and of itself, but that is aside the point. It is merely a means used when a comment cannot be responded to intellectually, and therefore demanding acknowledgment of a feigned negative emotional response in an effort to bully someone else to alter their behavior to suit personal whim.
Alongside that, what you do with your children is your business sir, not mine. I honestly don't care. I've my own to worry about. And frankly if I thought my son were so inept that he couldn't comprehend that sometimes a combat veteran is going to talk like a combat veteran from time to time, then I'd have to question not my speech behavior, but the intellectual critical thinking skills I've taught him to date alongside his ability to accept his fellow human being in spite of small speech terms used that I might not personally like for whatever reason.
To feign any of the above in my opinion is fundamentally dishonest, and frankly I prize integrity above saving someone else's feelings.
"Yes, I fly a Galaxy-X... and yes, I just 1-shotted you with it." -- Alcione@Hakaishin
From my experience based on PuGs I've been on, getting a PuG to focus on one target in the first place requires a minor miracle.
Sigh.
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
I do agree that this is nearly impossible myself. However you do run across some truly great fleetless players or those whose fleets aren't online etc, that are good art coordinating pugs. Not often but it does happen.
Oh I admit it is rare, you're correct. But the fact that it does happen is impressive and leaves the actions of this man relatively without excuse.
Ironically, if you use team chat in a pug PvP, you'll often be surprised however at how well your team will respond.
"Yes, I fly a Galaxy-X... and yes, I just 1-shotted you with it." -- Alcione@Hakaishin
The numbers are wrong there. Transphasic does +20% shield penetration (not raw 20%), and due to the way resistance works becomes:
(1-0.1)*(1-0.2) = 0.72 resistance => 28% bleedthrough
Transphasic Hull DPV against Shields: 603
Transphasic Hull DPS against Shields: 57.46
And you still get the usual (heavily reduced) damage against the shields themselves.
When/if the new +40% bleedthrough goes live it becomes:
(1-0.1)*(1-0.4) = 0.54 resistance => 46% bleedthrough
Transphasic (40%) Hull DPV against Shields: 991
Transphasic (40%) Hull DPS against Shields: 94.41
Which IMO is too high (+30% bleedthrough would give a good dps/bleedthrough balance with other torps).
Of course, none of that factors in the targets Kinetic resistances (which are then applied). Once you add that in, Brace For Impact and active console resists does a lot less vs Transphasic over time, as they're best used when your shields drop.
My question is this: I'm currently looking for a combo of boffs or a general idea of what works and what doesn't that would increase my odds of survival against borg cubes and in PvP battles. Currently PvP matches are "Let's see how fast I can get my ship vaporized!" I currently use overload beam arrays, torpedo spread, vent plasma, and attack pattern alpha as my main goto combat tactics. As I said before, I'm kind of new to this game so any constructive advice is appreciated.
First I would start a new threat to ask these questions as you will likely get a better response.
Second, What engineering/science skills are you using? and what duty offivers do you have equipped for space? And what did you spend youe skill points on in the engineering and science sections of the tree?
Not everything you see on the internet is true - Abraham Lincoln
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