Right-on. The bigest problem are the premades that Science spam SS, etc. We saw, we learned, we don't wanna play that way. I meet a lot of people ingame that quit PvP, not because of losing, but because of OP scispam.
There are good premades that aren't like that. Then like you said, even losing can be fun.
sometimes the only way to counter well coordinated sci teams is to sci'em back.
but ive seen that turn into about as much fun as 5v5 engineer in cruiser match.
that being said, to disrupt the copious amounts of healing some disruption is needed. most of the time in the form of subukes and scrambles. ive seen 2 sci captains hold it down, but i feel sometimes 3 is needed.
and since my fleet does everything not to use scramble (although im thinking lately we need at least 1 copy of ss1 on someone's ship) we have subnukes to clear, and psw's to disrupt extends.....tbr's to remove healers from field of battle (sometimes not worth it) and plain ole burst to remove the healer or spammer target. (those are mostly sci power spams btw)
my team accidentally popped off 3 photo fleets at once on a group last night. ive been on the other end of that, no fun. chain subuked....been there, sux.
being aware and trying to put together a gameplan to overcome the challenge is why we are all still here....is it not?
good players will work with the system, and be aware of their community and surroundings. they will gain friends and build good teams....until the game dies.
you all should stick around to have fun and kill bad guys, specially the noob who just got his rear handed to him and may rage in this thread in 2 seconds....
Nobody tries to threaten any dominance. However, introducing a random element would be an addition to gameplay, as you can't rely on your buddies providing xyz. Hence more fun for all. If you want to be your best, fight a pvp fleet in a premade setup. Wanna see how well you perform without you team, join the PUGs.
As Dan and yourself already show, not the case. Just another generalized insult you keep throwing at other players.
Sucks, just as calling people pathetic, innorite, lazy or fragile (btw short and terse has nothing to do with it)
will be randomized just as every body else, you can still hang out on TS and do whatever. Your friends will still be there, just on two sides of the battle, or in multiple battles. Wanna stick together as a team of 5, join a match of like minded ppl
Just the same as PUG being forced to, just on a more level playing field. Some call it community i hear...
None, I m in a pvp fleet because i like to pvp, if i don't like to PUG why would i like to play against them.
Still waiting on your suggestion on how to revitalize the population. ...
What I want is a match-making system. Anything else will just suck anyway.
I want to fly with friends in my team. But I want to fight different people as well. There are enough times over the course of the day where there aren't multiple premades on, which means the lone premade can stay at home. And even then, there are plenty of "premades" whose only "premade" aspect is that they are from the same fleet. They don't use voice comms, they don't have tailored builds for their premade. If they still beat a PuG, it's because of their experience as players in the game. And the fact that they are willing and able to coordinate when things get tougher.
A match-making system will ensure that people get into matches, but if they get into matches, it will be more likely equally strong teams fight. Without a match-making system we will either get too many situations where you're waiting for a game, or you encounter players of vastly different skill level.
I would get behind that too. Might even remove the need for split queues, depending on how well the matchmaking works, and what the population looks like.
Well, somehow Buccaneer found a way to respond. What's his trick?
You mistake short and terse language for insults, you are seeing what you choose to see, an angry man, not what is there, someone tired of trite conversation on a topic that has been rejected by the community countless times, about as many as the "Klingons are OP" threads, or the pointless "Defiants decloak alphas are OP" threads from the same user. Forgive me, if I have lost my patience, but do not mistake that for "spitting venom", a laughable accusation at best.
Blaming Cryptic is cheap? Should I list off the plethora of plain broken and overpowered skills or ships they have brought in to this game since launch? Do I even need to?
Since this topic is specifically about splitting the queues, not about the myriad ways we could improve PvP, it is no surprise I haven't started rambling about other suggestions, but simply expressed my dismay at having to see one of these topics once again.
Perhaps you would like however to comment on:
Queues not being dominated by premades as suggested
PUGS not wanting to face a challenge
Cryptics attitude toward PvP
Fleets that PUG
Premades being forced to play the same teams repeatedly
The impact on PvP fleets
Or perhaps....perhaps...I never mentioned any of that in my previous posts....woe unto me for not making any points....
:rolleyes:
14 hour work days mean I spend more time on the forums, it's that time of year for me. I have seen you around enough to know where you are coming from. You have a good list here. Only Cryptic can change the game or its mechanics and PvP has been the red-headed stepchild for a while.
Even in my discussion earlier with Mav, I respect where he is coming from and the 600 days leading up to now. And text based forums are inferior to face to face communication. Hard to interpret coulture, mood, even age/experience. So I try to refrain from insults and such and see how we might close some of the gap between PvP and PvE/PvP casual players.
Somebody can be young in age yet a wise veteran in gameplay knowledge and experience. But natural immaturity can make it difficult for that one to be a mentor to the perhaps older more casual player. And the reverse when the teammates try to teach lone wolf.
[*]Nobody tries to threaten any dominance. However, introducing a random element would be an addition to gameplay, as you can't rely on your buddies providing xyz. Hence more fun for all. If you want to be your best, fight a pvp fleet in a premade setup. Wanna see how well you perform without you team, join the PUGs.
You know it's always amazed me how quick those who accuse others of not paying attention are to commit the same error themselves.
What I in fact said was:
"This claim that Premades dominate queues, is, at least from my timezone perspective, laughable. I see pug vs pug all the time."
Perhaps this time you would like to respond in context?
[*]As Dan and yourself already show, not the case. Just another generalized insult you keep throwing at other players.
Just because there are exceptions does not make it a rule. As someone who pugs a lot, I can say from experience, from zone comments, from tells, from people leaving matches and the re-occurring threads here, there is a vast swathe of people who have no interest in anything remotely difficult. To them, we are haxxors, worth little else but an ignore.
Sucks, just as calling people pathetic, innorite, lazy or fragile (btw short and terse has nothing to do with it)
If the boot fits...
will be randomized just as every body else, you can still hang out on TS and do whatever. Your friends will still be there, just on two sides of the battle, or in multiple battles. Wanna stick together as a team of 5, join a match of like minded ppl
Again, the actual comment was:
"Should LF be barred from CnH because whichever side they happened to end up on dominates the game?"
There are fleets that do a lot of pugging, and by pure chance they will end up on one side and dominate another. Even if just 2 players from said fleet end up on a team. Should they be penalised also? If not, why not, they are just as "bad" as the teams that pre-team before the match and end up dominating games.
[*]Just the same as PUG being forced to, just on a more level playing field. Some call it community i hear...
Again, refer to point 1. From my experience, the claim that Premades are dominating PvP queues is nonsense. I get plenty of pug vs pug games. So no, pugs are not being forced to do anything, while premades should apparently be forced to play the same few premades, or abandon the team they worked hard to perfect. Wow, great.
[*]None, I m in a pvp fleet because i like to pvp, if i don't like to PUG why would i like to play against them.
I refer you back to the comment:
"And so for as long as there are no better teams around, which could be hours, or the entire time they are online, the LA Lakers are forced to split off and find random players to play with.
Let me ask you then, what exactly is the point of even being an LA Laker in that scenario? "
Replace LA Laker with "pvp fleet"
Still waiting on your suggestion on how to revitalize the population. ...
Because I can't possibly know something is a bad idea without suggesting a better one? Forgive me for voicing an opinion.
14 hour work days mean I spend more time on the forums, it's that time of year for me. I have seen you around enough to know where you are coming from. You have a good list here. Only Cryptic can change the game or its mechanics and PvP has been the red-headed stepchild for a while.
A while? Try forever!
Sometimes it actually amazes me that people even still play. We aren't just the red-headed step child, we are the red-headed step child that gets a slap in the face every few months, and for some reason, come back for more.
Speaking from the point of view of a regular pugger with the limited game experience of ~140 days subbed (my fleet doesn't have much of a pvp presence or focus at this time), I honestly don't mind getting bombed 15-0 to a premade.
If I roll up in a pug against TSI, so what? We're going to lose 15-0 every time. So why not try and have fun or learn something while blowing up. Watch the abilities your oponents are using and the timing of it, maybe pick out something you could use to better your own strategy.
Failing all that, play a game: How low can you get Era's hull before you get popped :P
This game simply doesn't have the pvp population to split the queuse into premade and pugs. Quite frankly, I wouldn't want it to have. Even if we did have the player base.
I ran into Skysni once. He was on the other team. That is exactly what I did and it is a great game to play.
I ran into Skysni once. He was on the other team. That is exactly what I did and it is a great game to play.
Yes, but a person can only blow up so many times before they say "forget it" and turn away from PvP completely.
It's really hard to get new people into playing PvP when they are just being crushed time and time and time again.
I'm looking to the near future here. Hopefully F2P is going to bring a large influx of new players. They'll play PvE at first, but even Feds run out of content after a month or so of regular play. So, inevitably, they are going to turn to PvP for entertainment.
Now of course everyone is going to lose at first. But once you've taken your licks a few hundred times you should start to get a grasp on what works and what doesn't.
Unfortunately right now the PvP game is completely dominated by premades exploiting broken tactics like SS and PSW. If you don't like to play that way you are going to lose 90% of the time. Even if you get points for losing you do get tired of it after a while.
PvP is just barely hanging on as it is, and as much as it might anger the "elites" who have been PvPing since the very beginning, some changes are going to have to be made to make the environment more n00b and casual player friendly if PvP is expected to survive the next year.
Yes, but a person can only blow up so many times before they say "forget it" and turn away from PvP completely.
By the time I stopped struggling through PvE and actually tried to get into PvP, there were already plenty of Premades out there.
And I still kept playing. I died a lot. But there were also lot of PuG vs PuG matches to be had, and sometimes my side won.
I am not an awesome player. I have no lightning fast reflexes (I click my abilities. And my dream is a round-based ego shooter.)
Over time I understood that I alone couldn't achieve anything more, not without someone else to play with regularly and really learn what my flaws are vs. the flaws of the team and how to fix both.
Maybe the hard, cold truth is - If you leave after struggling for quite some time through PvP, instead of trying to improve your situation - maybe it really wasn't for you. That doesn't even mean you're a bad player - you might not have the time, or the type of PvP offered by STO isn't the type you work best in.
But there really is no reason to stay a "PuG" forever. If you have any amount of skill or experience, plenty of fleets will have you. Sure, it might require some extra devotion - you actually have to find a fleet that PvPs. Maybe you don't actually need to become a fleet member - Many fleets have private channels beyond the reglar fleet channel to facilitate communication between KDF/FED sister fleets and the like.
All you need is a pool of people that you fly with regularly. (And for the most part, a fleet like LaFamlia isn't much more when we're talking "Premades". They rarely have dedicated, rounded or even optimized teams around. Just a pool of players that ask "any open teams", get invited, and then queue up.
If you're not willing to do at least that, or don't have the time for that - maybe you should not PvP? Or at least adjust your expectations? I know some players that genuinely prefer to PuG - I know that they could become member of some fleets very easily if they wanted to - but they don't need it. That's fine, too. Sure, some of them would prefer less premades, but I think most of the times they don't really meet the kind of Premades that are all that hard to beat! TSI and QEW aren't online all the time!
Many so called Premades can be beat by a PuG that cares to coordinate and at least know how to manage their own ships.
Maybe the hard, cold truth is - If you leave after struggling for quite some time through PvP, instead of trying to improve your situation - maybe it really wasn't for you. That doesn't even mean you're a bad player - you might not have the time, or the type of PvP offered by STO isn't the type you work best in.
But there really is no reason to stay a "PuG" forever. If you have any amount of skill or experience, plenty of fleets will have you. Sure, it might require some extra devotion - you actually have to find a fleet that PvPs. Maybe you don't actually need to become a fleet member - Many fleets have private channels beyond the reglar fleet channel to facilitate communication between KDF/FED sister fleets and the like.
All you need is a pool of people that you fly with regularly. (And for the most part, a fleet like LaFamlia isn't much more when we're talking "Premades". They rarely have dedicated, rounded or even optimized teams around. Just a pool of players that ask "any open teams", get invited, and then queue up.
I've been playing space shooter PvP since the days of X-wing vs TIE Fighter. 1-on-1 and teams. I'll admit I was never "the best" or even one of the "really good" players... but most of the time I could give as well as I got. I realize STO is more complicated than those games but it still boils down to grab a ship and go shoot people.
In the end I suppose it all boils down to the "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" mechanic. If a quality team is what's needed to have a reasonable chance of winning in this game I guess I'll have to go find one. The fleet I'm with now is a good bunch of people, but they don't do space PvP a lot. Perhaps it is time to shop my skills and desires elsewhere.
I'm still not sure why non-teamed playing queue is so threatening... If anything, it gives non-affliliated players a chance to choose which arena they wish to enter. The freedom to choose is ALWAYS a positive thing
I'm still not sure why non-teamed playing queue is so threatening...
The only reason I can come up with is that there are premades out there who get a kick out of rolling PuGs 15-0. If you make them play only against other premades that would force them to compete on a level playing field. You'd think they would enjoy that... but look what happens when the schoolyard bully finally meets someone his own size.
Yes, but a person can only blow up so many times before they say "forget it" and turn away from PvP completely.
It's really hard to get new people into playing PvP when they are just being crushed time and time and time again.
I'm looking to the near future here. Hopefully F2P is going to bring a large influx of new players. They'll play PvE at first, but even Feds run out of content after a month or so of regular play. So, inevitably, they are going to turn to PvP for entertainment.
Now of course everyone is going to lose at first. But once you've taken your licks a few hundred times you should start to get a grasp on what works and what doesn't.
Unfortunately right now the PvP game is completely dominated by premades exploiting broken tactics like SS and PSW. If you don't like to play that way you are going to lose 90% of the time. Even if you get points for losing you do get tired of it after a while.
PvP is just barely hanging on as it is, and as much as it might anger the "elites" who have been PvPing since the very beginning, some changes are going to have to be made to make the environment more n00b and casual player friendly if PvP is expected to survive the next year.
Trust me I have a lot to learn about PvP. So forgive this observation, but...
While I agree we need fresh blood in PvP and the more the merrier. If they have not developed a thick enough skin to deal with a steamroll they have not really gotten the PvP bug. Would I like to see a PUG friendlier queue? Yeah that would be nice. But the one thing about the current queue is it keeps you humble by reminding you of that next level of play. No one likes to be curb stomped, but if that new blood can't shake it off and get back in queue, well perhaps PvP is not for them.
The only reason I can come up with is that there are premades out there who get a kick out of rolling PuGs 15-0. If you make them play only against other premades that would force them to compete on a level playing field. You'd think they would enjoy that... but look what happens when the schoolyard bully finally meets someone his own size.
If RIFT doesn't have a separated que, then STO doesn't need one. I don't see people in rift going "ZOMG PREMADES ARE TOO GOOD ZOMG NOOOO HATE HATE HATE".
I'm not just speaking from a Premade player, (because my fleet is a strange beast, we have a Premade team, but we also just pick up who ever happens to be around that night from our fleet, or friends list.) the fact of the matter is 99 percent of the time my fleet isn't going Full Bore into matches. There's elements of our Premade we will test etc during matches against pugs but it's pretty rare for us to bring out all the big guns and let it fly. Do we try to win, with whatever it is we brought? Yes. Do we 'play down' and insult both our opponent and us? God no. Because that's what it is an insult. I wouldn't want QEW going "well these guys suck so let's only use half our bridge officers" and I would never similarly want to utter similar words.
The problem stems from this games abysmal population and a player base that by and large doesn't know what even half of the abilities of their ships do.
There are nights (rare that they are) that I do go pugging. To get the most mileage out of my Escort (because I know better than to expect heals especially from Feds), and to scout for people that I think might have potential that can be unlocked if they joined our fleet. Actually pretty much all of our current Team consists of people that I spotted along the way and went "hey that guy was actually pretty good".
Seperating the ques? Denies such opportunities, since at that point in an ideal circumstance I have to relay the info back to my fleetmates, about X player who by then may or may not be interested. Less and less I have the urge to Pug. Because for the most part, guys that have even a sparkle of talent have already been absorbed into a pvp fleet, or aren't willing to move out. And if I'm pugging unless I'm playing my Healer, no one wants to join a fleet with an Escort in it that can barely muster up kills. (regardless of the fact that I am getting next to no heals)
It also slaps people in the face that have developed relationships with other gamers. Let's say for example, I'm in a team that consists of SOB, CAC, and 528th. We're just out for a good time, and team up before hand. Is it Fair, for us to end up forced to play against say... QEW, TSI, RE, or a Full SOB Premade? Our ships aren't optimized to hang with each other, (far from it most likely as each fleet I mentioned does have some very significantly different pvp attitudes) but hey were an evil premade because we faceroll the pugs 15 and 0 repeatedly! This team is no different than a Pug, other than it's got talent in it's playerbase. How is it fair for those friends of each other to be denied the right to play, because the Space Bar Heroes Committee (also known as typical Fed Pugs) can't keep up?
I have no issue with running into another Premade. Infact if I had issues with doing so (or the other teams in it) why would my fleet be in the OPVP Tournament? However this game is in such a sorry state that a great many PvP Focused fleets have out right left the game, or had their numbers emaciated by the Year and six Months + of constant neglect by Cryptic's hand, and the braindead nature of PVE. So if you are the lone "premade" (let's pick on my Fleet or LF for the example running a semi pugmade) on, you get the sweet joy of.... No PvP or you don't get to play with your friends. How is that fair?
All that's doing is rewarding the antisocial person, that refuses to improve and refuses to actually get to know people and play with other people with any sort of regularity. And that is a horrible idea.
This game doesn't cater to Gamers. It slaps them in the face. (and I can assure you this game is going to probably have a pvp suicide once another title comes out and then the game will die less than eight months later) and this game frankly doesn't have the population to support even Matchmaking (which would be the ideal way to do it, and even that's not fool proof)
I'm still not sure why non-teamed playing queue is so threatening... If anything, it gives non-affliliated players a chance to choose which arena they wish to enter. The freedom to choose is ALWAYS a positive thing
The only reason I can come up with is that there are premades out there who get a kick out of rolling PuGs 15-0. If you make them play only against other premades that would force them to compete on a level playing field. You'd think they would enjoy that... but look what happens when the schoolyard bully finally meets someone his own size.
It is because people are friends. They don't want to end up distributed over 3 different matches on 6 different teams. They want to fly with their friends. They didn't join their fleet just to use it as a chat cannel.
It's the same reason that fleets build teams to play through STFs or other content - they want to play with people they can work with together, that they can rely on, that they like. Playing with others is part of the appeal of playing an MMO - and of course you want to have some choice in who those others are.
I'm still not sure why non-teamed playing queue is so threatening... If anything, it gives non-affliliated players a chance to choose which arena they wish to enter. The freedom to choose is ALWAYS a positive thing
Let me guess... you are not part of a premade? And you have the illusion that a premade who wants to fight other premades can actually find such matches?
The sad truth is that almost never TSI's "any premades on?" is answered. We would love to play against other premades - but either there are no other premades around when we are or they don't want to fight against us.
The idea of splitting the queues is therefore identical to the suggestion of removing organised teams from pvp outside of tournaments (1-2 matches per week at best). You write about "freedom to choose" and fail to see that there is no freedom at all when we cannot get other premades to play against us. All that remains is a forced breaking up of a group of friends who want to play together.
And what is a premade anyway? Even the combination of an Eng / Assault Cruiser with a Tac / Golfball was called a premade once.
If RIFT doesn't have a separated que, then STO doesn't need one. I don't see people in rift going "ZOMG PREMADES ARE TOO GOOD ZOMG NOOOO HATE HATE HATE".
Thats IMO an "old" STO problem. Everything beside PVP and STFs can be done solo, and ppl continue to claim that they want to be able to do the rest alone, even PVP wich is BY NATURE not doable solo.
Its an MMO, IMO the basic sense behind is is doing stuff in teams.
The problem stems from this games abysmal population and a player base that by and large doesn't know what even half of the abilities of their ships do.
Another old problem.
Honestly, I wouldnt know that, too, if I wanst "forced" to level a character only with PVP on KDF side before season 1. The whole leveling progress was nothing but a learning progress. When I was finished with first KDF and locked back to my fed, wich I thought was awsome before, i got a bout of laughter about how stupid my build was.
Today nobody has the luxury of leveling via pvp. People get thrown into VA pvp (low level pvp was prety gone before, but the pay 2 win ships ultimatly killed it), and get killed there fast by experieced players.
You cant really LEARN by just blowing up without knowing what hit you.
The only way to become better in pvp is going in with premade teams with other, better players who give advices, but especially those who do not care about playing with others wont do that.
Back before I started to PvP I was really on the fence about it. I honestly did not want to know how bad I actually was at the game. I came to the forums and read about it. One of the things I read in those early posts was to not be afraid to ask for advice after a match. Problem is you only get about a minute before you are auto-booted from the instance.
What I think would be nice are the kinds of features you see in PvP centric games like iRacing. Where you can watch live matches and chat with that community real time. Not only would it be something to do while waiting for a queue, it would give a low stress environment that would allow you to see skills and counters in action, also it would encourage core patronage that could encourage new PvPers and even train them. Further it would allow PvP fleets to look for new talent. At least that is my opinion of how such an environment would work and what it could foster. It would take too much work to implement though.
Back before I started to PvP I was really on the fence about it. I honestly did not want to know how bad I actually was at the game. I came to the forums and read about it. One of the things I read in those early posts was to not be afraid to ask for advice after a match. Problem is you only get about a minute before you are auto-booted from the instance.
What I think would be nice are the kinds of features you see in PvP centric games like iRacing. Where you can watch live matches and chat with that community real time. Not only would it be something to do while waiting for a queue, it would give a low stress environment that would allow you to see skills and counters in action, also it would encourage core patronage that could encourage new PvPers and even train them. Further it would allow PvP fleets to look for new talent. At least that is my opinion of how such an environment would work and what it could foster. It would take too much work to implement though.
Watching it wouldnt help much I believe. You still wouldnt know stuff like... energy settings, builds, wich level of wich ability, speed settings, gear...
Also that feature would be hard to build in the game..
But the pvp-guys in this forum are always willing to give advice. You just have to ask, that cant be done by somebody else.
And you must be willing to TAKE that advice (wich happens less often then you think, people ask, you tell them what how/how to do something and why XY doesnt work.... people still DO XY and wonder why it doesnt work....)
I mean I'm prety long in that game and I believe I know a lot of what works and what doesnt, still I'm willing to take advices from others and to try something new/diffrent.
Watching it wouldnt help much I believe. You still wouldnt know stuff like... energy settings, builds, wich level of wich ability, speed settings, gear...
Also that feature would be hard to build in the game..
But the pvp-guys in this forum are always willing to give advice. You just have to ask, that cant be done by somebody else.
And you must be willing to TAKE that advice (wich happens less often then you think, people ask, you tell them what how/how to do something and why XY doesnt work.... people still DO XY and wonder why it doesnt work....)
I mean I'm prety long in that game and I believe I know a lot of what works and what doesnt, still I'm willing to take advices from others and to try something new/diffrent.
It was only a suggestion.
Do notice what I said of watching was about powers used and counters, in essence timing, and the visual FX of the skills allow you to see that. I am full aware that you should not see power settings and equipment used. That is what the community chat I suggested was for. So PvP veterans could make commentary about what is observed to those interested in the hopes that it could one day yield a better match for them. the only issue I really see of such a social zone would be when veterans do not see eye to eye on a build or strategy and start a text version of PvP in chat. I have seen this phenomenon in the forums often enough to know it would happen in a PvP social zone.
Trust me I have asked and I have taken to heart the advice I was given. I am always willing to try something new.
Watching it wouldnt help much I believe. You still wouldnt know stuff like... energy settings, builds, wich level of wich ability, speed settings, gear...
Watching matches + reading about mechanics + playing does help. In other games you can view demos of 1v1 or team games. They are fun to watch and also give a lot of insight into the game.
Here's hoping we get some recordings from the upcoming competitive matches.
On topic:
I don't support the segregation of the queues because of how small they are, making it unfair and unpractical for those teams that fit that loose definition of a premade.
Thats IMO an "old" STO problem. Everything beside PVP and STFs can be done solo, and ppl continue to claim that they want to be able to do the rest alone, even PVP wich is BY NATURE not doable solo.
Its an MMO, IMO the basic sense behind is is doing stuff in teams.
Another old problem.
Honestly, I wouldnt know that, too, if I wanst "forced" to level a character only with PVP on KDF side before season 1. The whole leveling progress was nothing but a learning progress. When I was finished with first KDF and locked back to my fed, wich I thought was awsome before, i got a bout of laughter about how stupid my build was.
Today nobody has the luxury of leveling via pvp. People get thrown into VA pvp (low level pvp was prety gone before, but the pay 2 win ships ultimatly killed it), and get killed there fast by experieced players.
You cant really LEARN by just blowing up without knowing what hit you.
The only way to become better in pvp is going in with premade teams with other, better players who give advices, but especially those who do not care about playing with others wont do that.
Yeah, and that 'soloing' first mindset in my opinion is partly what has killed this game. That and the well, incredibly boring experience of playing sto anything but pvp.
I didn't really start pvping till my toon was RA back in the day (seems so long ago now). Back then we were all still learning for the most part what worked and what didn't. Toons I have made recently, I'm learning all over again with (Iceheart is my healer... though I've had the wonderful pleasure of pvping with Bigred for over a year and some other phenominal healers and know -what- skills they use I'm still learning the Timing aspect. I can say no matter what numbers I rack up and how many deaths I prevent I'm just not wired to fix people. I'm wired to blow them up.) my healer cruiser, newest tac (never built a Tac Recon as anything serious and really haven't seen a good one yet.) and two LOLground toons. (this one is self explanatory. I'm a space player)
Most of the avid pvpers though I think are quite willing to give and take advice. As much as we all love/hate each other we would all love to see new competitive faces even more. Though there is an interesting question involving that. Assuming that the Pug community actually started getting serious (lets say because of a "you only get emblems for winning", would it eventually get to a point where you could recognize which 'teacher' or group of 'teachers' a 'new' pvper had?
By the time I stopped struggling through PvE and actually tried to get into PvP, there were already plenty of Premades out there.
And I still kept playing. I died a lot. But there were also lot of PuG vs PuG matches to be had, and sometimes my side won.
I am not an awesome player. I have no lightning fast reflexes (I click my abilities. And my dream is a round-based ego shooter.)
Over time I understood that I alone couldn't achieve anything more, not without someone else to play with regularly and really learn what my flaws are vs. the flaws of the team and how to fix both.
Maybe the hard, cold truth is - If you leave after struggling for quite some time through PvP, instead of trying to improve your situation - maybe it really wasn't for you. That doesn't even mean you're a bad player - you might not have the time, or the type of PvP offered by STO isn't the type you work best in.
But there really is no reason to stay a "PuG" forever. If you have any amount of skill or experience, plenty of fleets will have you. Sure, it might require some extra devotion - you actually have to find a fleet that PvPs. Maybe you don't actually need to become a fleet member - Many fleets have private channels beyond the reglar fleet channel to facilitate communication between KDF/FED sister fleets and the like.
All you need is a pool of people that you fly with regularly. (And for the most part, a fleet like LaFamlia isn't much more when we're talking "Premades". They rarely have dedicated, rounded or even optimized teams around. Just a pool of players that ask "any open teams", get invited, and then queue up.
If you're not willing to do at least that, or don't have the time for that - maybe you should not PvP? Or at least adjust your expectations? I know some players that genuinely prefer to PuG - I know that they could become member of some fleets very easily if they wanted to - but they don't need it. That's fine, too. Sure, some of them would prefer less premades, but I think most of the times they don't really meet the kind of Premades that are all that hard to beat! TSI and QEW aren't online all the time!
Many so called Premades can be beat by a PuG that cares to coordinate and at least know how to manage their own ships.
I found this post to be very well put together, not insulting or condescending at all. Nice post, thanks.
I enjoy the RPG side of STO (crew building, ship customization, character building) My PvP experience was mostly 1v1 until I got Battlefield 2142. That game taught me the fun of squads and large battles. A lot of the people I used to PvP with are gone now. I have been doing a lot of ground PvP with my son since Season 4 hit. Now I am trying to get him back into space PvP. He loves cruisers and BFaW. But he quit when BFaW was OP and ruined his build (we hate to have advantages being competitive by nature) Our fleet has been here since launch but we have remained small. We don't mind teaming up but we will NEVER spawncamp a PuG. We will sit by an watch to even up the teams when someone leaves etc. It's just who we are. If I had known Cap H was leaving his fleet...
Do notice what I said of watching was about powers used and counters, in essence timing, and the visual FX of the skills allow you to see that. I am full aware that you should not see power settings and equipment used. That is what the community chat I suggested was for. So PvP veterans could make commentary about what is observed to those interested in the hopes that it could one day yield a better match for them. the only issue I really see of such a social zone would be when veterans do not see eye to eye on a build or strategy and start a text version of PvP in chat. I have seen this phenomenon in the forums often enough to know it would happen in a PvP social zone.
Trust me I have asked and I have taken to heart the advice I was given. I am always willing to try something new.
Well I know and I gave just feedback to that suggestion. I personally do not think the efford for that system would be balanced to the use. I mean.... Cryptic would have to build in an completly new mechanic into the current game. Dont know how hard that would be, but I believe it would take some resources and THOSE are needet in SO MANY places here...
But I just a player with an opinion^^
Well about that commentary: What could be REALLY usefull, I believe, would be "good pvpers" making kind of Tutoriel-videos including comments and explanations, showing "critical situations" in slow motion discribing exactly what they to and what can be done and what to look out for ect.... Dont know if something like that is arround.
Would be less efford and more unsefull.
Watching matches + reading about mechanics + playing does help. In other games you can view demos of 1v1 or team games. They are fun to watch and also give a lot of insight into the game.
Here's hoping we get some recordings from the upcoming competitive matches.
On topic:
I don't support the segregation of the queues because of how small they are, making it unfair and unpractical for those teams that fit that loose definition of a premade.
Remember that STo-pvp is much more chaotic then 1vs1 games. Dont know if you can even learn anything out of looking at a mass of 10 ships shooting at each other.
And everyone willing to watch matches+researching.... will also be willing to ask arround for a team that takes him with them and gives him advice.
My experience is that lot of PVPers welcome newbies and are willing to help.
Yeah, and that 'soloing' first mindset in my opinion is partly what has killed this game. That and the well, incredibly boring experience of playing sto anything but pvp.
Most of the avid pvpers though I think are quite willing to give and take advice.
Didnt say EVERYBODY refuses advices.
Another point, by the way, is: A lot of people kind of get lazy after taking advices and dont thing for themselfes.
Not every tactic and build works for everybody equaly. PPL (who take advices in the first place) just do exactly what has been said without trying to costumize the new advices to the own favored playstyle.
As much as we all love/hate each other we would all love to see new competitive faces even more. Though there is an interesting question involving that. Assuming that the Pug community actually started getting serious (lets say because of a "you only get emblems for winning", would it eventually get to a point where you could recognize which 'teacher' or group of 'teachers' a 'new' pvper had?
Agree here, too.
Just recently happened to me that I got the bad taste of my own medicine by a friend of mine using MY tactics against me. Kind of funny...
Comments
sometimes the only way to counter well coordinated sci teams is to sci'em back.
but ive seen that turn into about as much fun as 5v5 engineer in cruiser match.
that being said, to disrupt the copious amounts of healing some disruption is needed. most of the time in the form of subukes and scrambles. ive seen 2 sci captains hold it down, but i feel sometimes 3 is needed.
and since my fleet does everything not to use scramble (although im thinking lately we need at least 1 copy of ss1 on someone's ship) we have subnukes to clear, and psw's to disrupt extends.....tbr's to remove healers from field of battle (sometimes not worth it) and plain ole burst to remove the healer or spammer target. (those are mostly sci power spams btw)
my team accidentally popped off 3 photo fleets at once on a group last night. ive been on the other end of that, no fun. chain subuked....been there, sux.
being aware and trying to put together a gameplan to overcome the challenge is why we are all still here....is it not?
good players will work with the system, and be aware of their community and surroundings. they will gain friends and build good teams....until the game dies.
you all should stick around to have fun and kill bad guys, specially the noob who just got his rear handed to him and may rage in this thread in 2 seconds....
-horizon
sure why not
Still waiting on your suggestion on how to revitalize the population. ...
I would get behind that too. Might even remove the need for split queues, depending on how well the matchmaking works, and what the population looks like.
14 hour work days mean I spend more time on the forums, it's that time of year for me. I have seen you around enough to know where you are coming from. You have a good list here. Only Cryptic can change the game or its mechanics and PvP has been the red-headed stepchild for a while.
Even in my discussion earlier with Mav, I respect where he is coming from and the 600 days leading up to now. And text based forums are inferior to face to face communication. Hard to interpret coulture, mood, even age/experience. So I try to refrain from insults and such and see how we might close some of the gap between PvP and PvE/PvP casual players.
Somebody can be young in age yet a wise veteran in gameplay knowledge and experience. But natural immaturity can make it difficult for that one to be a mentor to the perhaps older more casual player. And the reverse when the teammates try to teach lone wolf.
The Asians are coming! The Asians are coming! Too bad won't see them much during USA primetime playing.
Let's hope they'll save us all.
Its going to be pearl harbor all over again.. Ill be waiting for them (polishing torpedo launchers)
You know it's always amazed me how quick those who accuse others of not paying attention are to commit the same error themselves.
What I in fact said was:
"This claim that Premades dominate queues, is, at least from my timezone perspective, laughable. I see pug vs pug all the time."
Perhaps this time you would like to respond in context?
Just because there are exceptions does not make it a rule. As someone who pugs a lot, I can say from experience, from zone comments, from tells, from people leaving matches and the re-occurring threads here, there is a vast swathe of people who have no interest in anything remotely difficult. To them, we are haxxors, worth little else but an ignore.
If the boot fits...
Again, the actual comment was:
"Should LF be barred from CnH because whichever side they happened to end up on dominates the game?"
There are fleets that do a lot of pugging, and by pure chance they will end up on one side and dominate another. Even if just 2 players from said fleet end up on a team. Should they be penalised also? If not, why not, they are just as "bad" as the teams that pre-team before the match and end up dominating games.
Again, refer to point 1. From my experience, the claim that Premades are dominating PvP queues is nonsense. I get plenty of pug vs pug games. So no, pugs are not being forced to do anything, while premades should apparently be forced to play the same few premades, or abandon the team they worked hard to perfect. Wow, great.
I refer you back to the comment:
"And so for as long as there are no better teams around, which could be hours, or the entire time they are online, the LA Lakers are forced to split off and find random players to play with.
Let me ask you then, what exactly is the point of even being an LA Laker in that scenario? "
Replace LA Laker with "pvp fleet"
Because I can't possibly know something is a bad idea without suggesting a better one? Forgive me for voicing an opinion.
1 if by land, 2 if by sea, 3 if with Asian?
But seriously now... you know why the Enterprise survived its 5 year mission? Sulu's got skillz
A while? Try forever!
Sometimes it actually amazes me that people even still play. We aren't just the red-headed step child, we are the red-headed step child that gets a slap in the face every few months, and for some reason, come back for more.
I ran into Skysni once. He was on the other team. That is exactly what I did and it is a great game to play.
Yes, but a person can only blow up so many times before they say "forget it" and turn away from PvP completely.
It's really hard to get new people into playing PvP when they are just being crushed time and time and time again.
I'm looking to the near future here. Hopefully F2P is going to bring a large influx of new players. They'll play PvE at first, but even Feds run out of content after a month or so of regular play. So, inevitably, they are going to turn to PvP for entertainment.
Now of course everyone is going to lose at first. But once you've taken your licks a few hundred times you should start to get a grasp on what works and what doesn't.
Unfortunately right now the PvP game is completely dominated by premades exploiting broken tactics like SS and PSW. If you don't like to play that way you are going to lose 90% of the time. Even if you get points for losing you do get tired of it after a while.
PvP is just barely hanging on as it is, and as much as it might anger the "elites" who have been PvPing since the very beginning, some changes are going to have to be made to make the environment more n00b and casual player friendly if PvP is expected to survive the next year.
I don't know... I'm still around:).
And I still kept playing. I died a lot. But there were also lot of PuG vs PuG matches to be had, and sometimes my side won.
I am not an awesome player. I have no lightning fast reflexes (I click my abilities. And my dream is a round-based ego shooter.)
Over time I understood that I alone couldn't achieve anything more, not without someone else to play with regularly and really learn what my flaws are vs. the flaws of the team and how to fix both.
Maybe the hard, cold truth is - If you leave after struggling for quite some time through PvP, instead of trying to improve your situation - maybe it really wasn't for you. That doesn't even mean you're a bad player - you might not have the time, or the type of PvP offered by STO isn't the type you work best in.
But there really is no reason to stay a "PuG" forever. If you have any amount of skill or experience, plenty of fleets will have you. Sure, it might require some extra devotion - you actually have to find a fleet that PvPs. Maybe you don't actually need to become a fleet member - Many fleets have private channels beyond the reglar fleet channel to facilitate communication between KDF/FED sister fleets and the like.
All you need is a pool of people that you fly with regularly. (And for the most part, a fleet like LaFamlia isn't much more when we're talking "Premades". They rarely have dedicated, rounded or even optimized teams around. Just a pool of players that ask "any open teams", get invited, and then queue up.
If you're not willing to do at least that, or don't have the time for that - maybe you should not PvP? Or at least adjust your expectations? I know some players that genuinely prefer to PuG - I know that they could become member of some fleets very easily if they wanted to - but they don't need it. That's fine, too. Sure, some of them would prefer less premades, but I think most of the times they don't really meet the kind of Premades that are all that hard to beat! TSI and QEW aren't online all the time!
Many so called Premades can be beat by a PuG that cares to coordinate and at least know how to manage their own ships.
Yeah and I must admit I am surprised sto hasn't integrated a /target_hale command into it's infrastructure. :cool:
I've been playing space shooter PvP since the days of X-wing vs TIE Fighter. 1-on-1 and teams. I'll admit I was never "the best" or even one of the "really good" players... but most of the time I could give as well as I got. I realize STO is more complicated than those games but it still boils down to grab a ship and go shoot people.
In the end I suppose it all boils down to the "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" mechanic. If a quality team is what's needed to have a reasonable chance of winning in this game I guess I'll have to go find one. The fleet I'm with now is a good bunch of people, but they don't do space PvP a lot. Perhaps it is time to shop my skills and desires elsewhere.
The only reason I can come up with is that there are premades out there who get a kick out of rolling PuGs 15-0. If you make them play only against other premades that would force them to compete on a level playing field. You'd think they would enjoy that... but look what happens when the schoolyard bully finally meets someone his own size.
I want a T-shirt that says, "I have used the /target_Hale command."
Trust me I have a lot to learn about PvP. So forgive this observation, but...
While I agree we need fresh blood in PvP and the more the merrier. If they have not developed a thick enough skin to deal with a steamroll they have not really gotten the PvP bug. Would I like to see a PUG friendlier queue? Yeah that would be nice. But the one thing about the current queue is it keeps you humble by reminding you of that next level of play. No one likes to be curb stomped, but if that new blood can't shake it off and get back in queue, well perhaps PvP is not for them.
If RIFT doesn't have a separated que, then STO doesn't need one. I don't see people in rift going "ZOMG PREMADES ARE TOO GOOD ZOMG NOOOO HATE HATE HATE".
I'm not just speaking from a Premade player, (because my fleet is a strange beast, we have a Premade team, but we also just pick up who ever happens to be around that night from our fleet, or friends list.) the fact of the matter is 99 percent of the time my fleet isn't going Full Bore into matches. There's elements of our Premade we will test etc during matches against pugs but it's pretty rare for us to bring out all the big guns and let it fly. Do we try to win, with whatever it is we brought? Yes. Do we 'play down' and insult both our opponent and us? God no. Because that's what it is an insult. I wouldn't want QEW going "well these guys suck so let's only use half our bridge officers" and I would never similarly want to utter similar words.
The problem stems from this games abysmal population and a player base that by and large doesn't know what even half of the abilities of their ships do.
There are nights (rare that they are) that I do go pugging. To get the most mileage out of my Escort (because I know better than to expect heals especially from Feds), and to scout for people that I think might have potential that can be unlocked if they joined our fleet. Actually pretty much all of our current Team consists of people that I spotted along the way and went "hey that guy was actually pretty good".
Seperating the ques? Denies such opportunities, since at that point in an ideal circumstance I have to relay the info back to my fleetmates, about X player who by then may or may not be interested. Less and less I have the urge to Pug. Because for the most part, guys that have even a sparkle of talent have already been absorbed into a pvp fleet, or aren't willing to move out. And if I'm pugging unless I'm playing my Healer, no one wants to join a fleet with an Escort in it that can barely muster up kills. (regardless of the fact that I am getting next to no heals)
It also slaps people in the face that have developed relationships with other gamers. Let's say for example, I'm in a team that consists of SOB, CAC, and 528th. We're just out for a good time, and team up before hand. Is it Fair, for us to end up forced to play against say... QEW, TSI, RE, or a Full SOB Premade? Our ships aren't optimized to hang with each other, (far from it most likely as each fleet I mentioned does have some very significantly different pvp attitudes) but hey were an evil premade because we faceroll the pugs 15 and 0 repeatedly! This team is no different than a Pug, other than it's got talent in it's playerbase. How is it fair for those friends of each other to be denied the right to play, because the Space Bar Heroes Committee (also known as typical Fed Pugs) can't keep up?
I have no issue with running into another Premade. Infact if I had issues with doing so (or the other teams in it) why would my fleet be in the OPVP Tournament? However this game is in such a sorry state that a great many PvP Focused fleets have out right left the game, or had their numbers emaciated by the Year and six Months + of constant neglect by Cryptic's hand, and the braindead nature of PVE. So if you are the lone "premade" (let's pick on my Fleet or LF for the example running a semi pugmade) on, you get the sweet joy of.... No PvP or you don't get to play with your friends. How is that fair?
All that's doing is rewarding the antisocial person, that refuses to improve and refuses to actually get to know people and play with other people with any sort of regularity. And that is a horrible idea.
This game doesn't cater to Gamers. It slaps them in the face. (and I can assure you this game is going to probably have a pvp suicide once another title comes out and then the game will die less than eight months later) and this game frankly doesn't have the population to support even Matchmaking (which would be the ideal way to do it, and even that's not fool proof)
It is because people are friends. They don't want to end up distributed over 3 different matches on 6 different teams. They want to fly with their friends. They didn't join their fleet just to use it as a chat cannel.
It's the same reason that fleets build teams to play through STFs or other content - they want to play with people they can work with together, that they can rely on, that they like. Playing with others is part of the appeal of playing an MMO - and of course you want to have some choice in who those others are.
The sad truth is that almost never TSI's "any premades on?" is answered. We would love to play against other premades - but either there are no other premades around when we are or they don't want to fight against us.
The idea of splitting the queues is therefore identical to the suggestion of removing organised teams from pvp outside of tournaments (1-2 matches per week at best). You write about "freedom to choose" and fail to see that there is no freedom at all when we cannot get other premades to play against us. All that remains is a forced breaking up of a group of friends who want to play together.
And what is a premade anyway? Even the combination of an Eng / Assault Cruiser with a Tac / Golfball was called a premade once.
Thats IMO an "old" STO problem. Everything beside PVP and STFs can be done solo, and ppl continue to claim that they want to be able to do the rest alone, even PVP wich is BY NATURE not doable solo.
Its an MMO, IMO the basic sense behind is is doing stuff in teams.
Another old problem.
Honestly, I wouldnt know that, too, if I wanst "forced" to level a character only with PVP on KDF side before season 1. The whole leveling progress was nothing but a learning progress. When I was finished with first KDF and locked back to my fed, wich I thought was awsome before, i got a bout of laughter about how stupid my build was.
Today nobody has the luxury of leveling via pvp. People get thrown into VA pvp (low level pvp was prety gone before, but the pay 2 win ships ultimatly killed it), and get killed there fast by experieced players.
You cant really LEARN by just blowing up without knowing what hit you.
The only way to become better in pvp is going in with premade teams with other, better players who give advices, but especially those who do not care about playing with others wont do that.
What I think would be nice are the kinds of features you see in PvP centric games like iRacing. Where you can watch live matches and chat with that community real time. Not only would it be something to do while waiting for a queue, it would give a low stress environment that would allow you to see skills and counters in action, also it would encourage core patronage that could encourage new PvPers and even train them. Further it would allow PvP fleets to look for new talent. At least that is my opinion of how such an environment would work and what it could foster. It would take too much work to implement though.
Watching it wouldnt help much I believe. You still wouldnt know stuff like... energy settings, builds, wich level of wich ability, speed settings, gear...
Also that feature would be hard to build in the game..
But the pvp-guys in this forum are always willing to give advice. You just have to ask, that cant be done by somebody else.
And you must be willing to TAKE that advice (wich happens less often then you think, people ask, you tell them what how/how to do something and why XY doesnt work.... people still DO XY and wonder why it doesnt work....)
I mean I'm prety long in that game and I believe I know a lot of what works and what doesnt, still I'm willing to take advices from others and to try something new/diffrent.
It was only a suggestion.
Do notice what I said of watching was about powers used and counters, in essence timing, and the visual FX of the skills allow you to see that. I am full aware that you should not see power settings and equipment used. That is what the community chat I suggested was for. So PvP veterans could make commentary about what is observed to those interested in the hopes that it could one day yield a better match for them. the only issue I really see of such a social zone would be when veterans do not see eye to eye on a build or strategy and start a text version of PvP in chat. I have seen this phenomenon in the forums often enough to know it would happen in a PvP social zone.
Trust me I have asked and I have taken to heart the advice I was given. I am always willing to try something new.
Watching matches + reading about mechanics + playing does help. In other games you can view demos of 1v1 or team games. They are fun to watch and also give a lot of insight into the game.
Here's hoping we get some recordings from the upcoming competitive matches.
On topic:
I don't support the segregation of the queues because of how small they are, making it unfair and unpractical for those teams that fit that loose definition of a premade.
Yeah, and that 'soloing' first mindset in my opinion is partly what has killed this game. That and the well, incredibly boring experience of playing sto anything but pvp.
I didn't really start pvping till my toon was RA back in the day (seems so long ago now). Back then we were all still learning for the most part what worked and what didn't. Toons I have made recently, I'm learning all over again with (Iceheart is my healer... though I've had the wonderful pleasure of pvping with Bigred for over a year and some other phenominal healers and know -what- skills they use I'm still learning the Timing aspect. I can say no matter what numbers I rack up and how many deaths I prevent I'm just not wired to fix people. I'm wired to blow them up.) my healer cruiser, newest tac (never built a Tac Recon as anything serious and really haven't seen a good one yet.) and two LOLground toons. (this one is self explanatory. I'm a space player)
Most of the avid pvpers though I think are quite willing to give and take advice. As much as we all love/hate each other we would all love to see new competitive faces even more. Though there is an interesting question involving that. Assuming that the Pug community actually started getting serious (lets say because of a "you only get emblems for winning", would it eventually get to a point where you could recognize which 'teacher' or group of 'teachers' a 'new' pvper had?
I found this post to be very well put together, not insulting or condescending at all. Nice post, thanks.
I enjoy the RPG side of STO (crew building, ship customization, character building) My PvP experience was mostly 1v1 until I got Battlefield 2142. That game taught me the fun of squads and large battles. A lot of the people I used to PvP with are gone now. I have been doing a lot of ground PvP with my son since Season 4 hit. Now I am trying to get him back into space PvP. He loves cruisers and BFaW. But he quit when BFaW was OP and ruined his build (we hate to have advantages being competitive by nature) Our fleet has been here since launch but we have remained small. We don't mind teaming up but we will NEVER spawncamp a PuG. We will sit by an watch to even up the teams when someone leaves etc. It's just who we are. If I had known Cap H was leaving his fleet...
Well I know and I gave just feedback to that suggestion. I personally do not think the efford for that system would be balanced to the use. I mean.... Cryptic would have to build in an completly new mechanic into the current game. Dont know how hard that would be, but I believe it would take some resources and THOSE are needet in SO MANY places here...
But I just a player with an opinion^^
Well about that commentary: What could be REALLY usefull, I believe, would be "good pvpers" making kind of Tutoriel-videos including comments and explanations, showing "critical situations" in slow motion discribing exactly what they to and what can be done and what to look out for ect.... Dont know if something like that is arround.
Would be less efford and more unsefull.
Remember that STo-pvp is much more chaotic then 1vs1 games. Dont know if you can even learn anything out of looking at a mass of 10 ships shooting at each other.
And everyone willing to watch matches+researching.... will also be willing to ask arround for a team that takes him with them and gives him advice.
My experience is that lot of PVPers welcome newbies and are willing to help.
Yeah that is definitly a point...
Didnt say EVERYBODY refuses advices.
Another point, by the way, is: A lot of people kind of get lazy after taking advices and dont thing for themselfes.
Not every tactic and build works for everybody equaly. PPL (who take advices in the first place) just do exactly what has been said without trying to costumize the new advices to the own favored playstyle.
Agree here, too.
Just recently happened to me that I got the bad taste of my own medicine by a friend of mine using MY tactics against me. Kind of funny...