This is also something I should have addressed sooner. Let's assume this happens. TOR comes out, seeing as how most of OPVP knows at least one or two people that they are Friends With, are going to leave this game in the ditch for TOR once it hits, and they won't be able to game with people they know (if they want any pvp at all) what's to stop them then from going "TRIBBLE this, Cryptic hates Friendships and Team Play, I'm going to TOR".
Which will start a cascading effect of Hardened PvPers leaving this game, and leaving the poor rookies to learn from scratch or worse, try to learn from people that have no clue of what they are talking about. Essentially neutering the community.
Totally hear you on that one. I've got coworkers and former coworkers who will be picking up TOR, as well as a few STO friends.
Hopefully STO will be F2P by then, and I can still log in on my BoP or noobula and pvp for free. Can't say what others will do, but I'll stop by from time to time to see if cryptic gets their head out of their buttocks.
It doesn't matter if it's "team only" or "team optional". The important part is there is a "no team" queue that will reduce the number of people bothering with the "team option/only" queue.
That may be true, but let's do a quick general listing of players who normally queue for PVP:
1 - Organized Prebuilt Teams (competition oriented)
2 - Teams of Friends / Fleet member (non-competition oriented; mostly a social group)
3 - Solo PVP'ers who PVP mostly for fun / challenge
4 - PVP'ers who actively participate only for rewards / emblems / leveling
5 - AFK'ers - just there for rewards; not interested in any PVP whatsoever.
Some groups do have shared interests and objectives, but certain group combinations in the same arena tend to cause problems. For example, there are Type1 player groups that actively grieve CnH where they know most will be Type3's or 4. Type5's are the bane of all PVP teams... their presence is usually enough to shift the game in favor of the opposing team. Frankly, I'd like to see Type5 players have a separate queue where they can still get their rewards without negatively impacting Player Type 1, 2, and 3.
In a nutshell, the large variety of players warrants different queues to meet their particular needs. Perhaps the non-team queue could be created for just CnH only, while keeping Arena strictly team only.
Either way, I'm open to suggestions, because the current conventional queue system with its ridiculous player count requirements and 60+ minute wait times isn't working for myself and many other who have already voiced their opinions in this thread. If enough of us leave this game because Cryptic isn't willing to give us what we want, which is a more tailored and balanced PVP system, then they only have themselves to blame.
If they are happy PuGging, that is okay. But this is not a 1vs1 PvP game. If it was, Cruisers were hopelessly overpowered. So people eithe rhave to accept that they will occasionally lose against premades, or they will have to step up their game.
If you want a 1v1 Queue - that's another matter. Maybe that could work, though I claim the game is not balanced for that and trying to balance the game both for team PvP and 1v1 PvP will be an even bigger nightmare than the PvE vs PvP balancing aspect. The complains would change from "I don't want to fight those Premades that just steamroll everyone" to "Cruiser players are griefers and should be banned from the 1v1 Queue."
The non-team queue is flexible enough to support anything from 16 vs 16 down to 1 vs 1. Exact combat results will always vary depending on the captains the their respective builds, but at least they got to choose where to play. Also keep this in mind: Many players can jump games as easily as they jump queues, and keeping STO PVP's current queue system (including the long wait times and emblem reward grinds) is a sure way to lose players long term, even with the upcomning F2P system factored in.
This game is going to be dead soon anyway. I don't see why you are clamoring for something that's only going to accelerate the process.
Can you at least explain how you arrived at the above conclusion? I don't know about your sources, but mine actually has Cryptic as a customer, and they're moving to the F2P microtransaction system because its revenue stream far-exceeds monthly subscription by more than double. So is STO going to be dead soon? I don't think so...
"but it's sto natural selection!" No it really isn't. It's artificially introduced selection.
Can you please explain how giving PVP players a choice is artificial selection? I'll agree with your statement if you can at least put your reasoning in text.
Also, the current system already creates artificial player participation demands, previously posted in this thread:
PVP will return to its former speed and glory once they dump the above code, or until F2P goes live. Until then, be prepared to wait 60+ minutes per match off peak hours.
Also how exactly is this going to help new people improve in PVP when the people they are exposed to will most likely be the same people that even in Pug Groups I have been One Passing over the last year? Not exactly the group of people you want to be getting advice from.
Answer: a separate queue will give new players exposure to the basics of PVP... pretty much like training wheels. The level of team play in that arena will be no where near as demanding as the conventional queues. New players do not have to worry about being kill-farmed 50+ times by the same group of 5 seasoned player who are there only to grief and nothing else. Once those players are comfortable enough with the basics of ship to ship combat, then they can more onto a more team-oriented environment where coordination is the next discipline to master.
Also, there's quite a few of us that would rather not game at all if we can't get games while playing with our friends. So we aren't going to notice new names either, if we're in what is effectively a Team Only Que, we aren't going to see new comers, we're not going to go "oh hey asked me for help. I should help him out." Nor will "Hey that guy wasn't bad for a new guy, I'll see if he's fleet shopping."
The suggested team reward system above will insure that winning a team PVP match nets more than just emblems and credits, not to mention attract more players into the traditional queues. Once F2P goes live, and the broken PVP player count code scrapped, then PVP will start moving again like it did during STO's first few months.
Anyway, I'm certain that I've already covered the above previously, but somehow it just keeps coming back again and again...
This is also something I should have addressed sooner. Let's assume this happens. TOR comes out, seeing as how most of OPVP knows at least one or two people that they are Friends With, are going to leave this game in the ditch for TOR once it hits, and they won't be able to game with people they know (if they want any pvp at all) what's to stop them then from going "TRIBBLE this, Cryptic hates Friendships and Team Play, I'm going to TOR".
Which will start a cascading effect of Hardened PvPers leaving this game, and leaving the poor rookies to learn from scratch or worse, try to learn from people that have no clue of what they are talking about. Essentially neutering the community.
This is the game industry's natural selection process in action again. If a new game title is that much better than any current title, then customers will naturally try out the new game to see how it compares. From there they can make an educated choice about which game provides a more enjoyable experience.
Also, do we really think that the "poor rookies" will invariably suffer just because they get to learn how to play the game from scratch? Sometimes the learning process provides more entertainment and first-hand experience that can never be taught by anyone, especially by seasoned players who only serve to spoil the surprises.
You do NOT divide the community up even farther when there's something bigger, badder and way cooler just around the corner. Especially when there's already a large amount of discontent in that population. You want to keep them happy and gaming together as long as possible.
There are already many sub-divisions within the PVP community, and the sheer number of opposing responses in this thread proves the latter. Denying a feature that is wanted by many STO players will only serve to accelerate their departure from this game. If you think otherwise, then no amount of proof will ever change your mind.
Totally hear you on that one. I've got coworkers and former coworkers who will be picking up TOR, as well as a few STO friends.
Hopefully STO will be F2P by then, and I can still log in on my BoP or noobula and pvp for free. Can't say what others will do, but I'll stop by from time to time to see if cryptic gets their head out of their buttocks.
Admittedly, I will be one of many players here who will be picking up TOR along with Diablo3 when they come out. That does not mean I will leave STO permanently, especially since I have so many friends that I made here through my fleet Vent. However, I am keeping my options open if STO doesn't remove the PVP queue player count requirements.
Can you at least explain how you arrived at the above conclusion? I don't know about your sources, but mine actually has Cryptic as a customer, and they're moving to the F2P microtransaction system because its revenue stream far-exceeds monthly subscription by more than double. So is STO going to be dead soon? I don't think so...
Can you please explain how giving PVP players a choice is artificial selection? I'll agree with your statement if you can at least put your reasoning in text.
Also, the current system already creates artificial player participation demands, previously posted in this thread:
PVP will return to its former speed and glory once they dump the above code, or until F2P goes live. Until then, be prepared to wait 60+ minutes per match off peak hours.
Answer: a separate queue will give new players exposure to the basics of PVP... pretty much like training wheels. The level of team play in that arena will be no where near as demanding as the conventional queues. New players do not have to worry about being kill-farmed 50+ times by the same group of 5 seasoned player who are there only to grief and nothing else. Once those players are comfortable enough with the basics of ship to ship combat, then they can more onto a more team-oriented environment where coordination is the next discipline to master.
The suggested team reward system above will insure that winning a team PVP match nets more than just emblems and credits, not to mention attract more players into the traditional queues. Once F2P goes live, and the broken PVP player count code scrapped, then PVP will start moving again like it did during STO's first few months.
Anyway, I'm certain that I've already covered the above previously, but somehow it just keeps coming back again and again...
The other scifimmo that's coming out is going to bury this game unless some rather dramatic content, and additions /improvements are made to this game f2p or not. (f2p only works for so many games because they just can't compete against high end p2p titles) There is then of course D3, and GW2 to think about as well as quite a few other stellar titles due out this year. The whole reason they are moving to f2p is because they are finally well under the minimal 100k subs they felt necessary to sustain any kind of profit.
No one wants to learn, save for a handful who are going to learn how to pvp under the current system anyway. All this is doing is putting an artifical End to any kind of prearranged teaming. Those guys that I have been One Passing for the last year? Perfect example, and there's far from few of them out there. (and boy do they tend to send some rather......colorful tells) Basically it's going to favor that kind of player out right which unfortunately makes up the lion's share of 'pvper' in this game.
If anyone in this thread is wondering just why I'm so bitter and hateful towards this idea, it's squarely due to people not even trying in pvp, then they come onto the forums and ***** and ****** about "evil premades'' even if it's a Pug that just rolled them one 15 and 0. Heck over the last year I have even seen people name names of just who curbstomped them one, and blame cryptic and hate on that player's fleet for allowing a Premade Grade player to even PUG solo. Or they'll make various threads about how "escorts need nerfed!" etc etc, and despite incredibly civil and help offering posts, the OP will remain steadfast in their viewpoint, and or get very uncivil with various posters. I don't want any system in place that in my opinion is going to encourage that mentality, sure they exist now, but it'd be even worse if cryptic actually made a que system 'just for them' because they are being rewarded for essentially poor sportsmanship.
This is still encouraged already to a very large degree of cryptic basically saying "everyone is a winner" by handing out emblems and full rewards regardless of just how badly a player managed to embarrass themselves and their team in a game.
I don't see how your idea is going to encourage people to join the conventional ques. Maybe do what Starcraft 2 does instead, where the "open random ques" don't count for anything (like a custom game in sc2), unless you win. (you get 3 emblems for winning in a Random Game set) And maybe after a set amount of wins to losses you lose the ability to que up for the Random Games again. (much like the 'practice league') Winning the "conventional que" nets you 6 emblems instead of 3, along with much higher Merit Points.
The problem with the seperate que idea as it's own entity is that really there are people that are So Bad at this game that the Fleet Support NPCS put up more of a fight (and I'm not talking about the Dreadnought and Carrier either, not even a Typhoon) than people that have been pvping as long as I have or longer. It's not really good practice to play against those level of players. It doesn't teach you anything other than Space Bar and Buffs Kill People. To really start to learn the game, you have to face people better than yourself so you can see what you are doing wrong, Regularly.
If you change your idea to a Practice Que System, where you have a limited number of games in it (that proven teams can't get in or get access to) then that would be a much better idea than a permanent No Team que. Those people with Friends get what they want (variety in opponents) and new guys get what they want time to practice and sharpen up abit before worrying about running into people as good or far better.
We'll say the Practice Que Ladder, lasts until you've won 30 or 40 matches. After that it graduates you into the normal que system.
/snip of doom
If you change your idea to a Practice Que System, where you have a limited number of games in it (that proven teams can't get in or get access to) then that would be a much better idea than a permanent No Team que. Those people with Friends get what they want (variety in opponents) and new guys get what they want time to practice and sharpen up abit before worrying about running into people as good or far better.
We'll say the Practice Que Ladder, lasts until you've won 30 or 40 matches. After that it graduates you into the normal que system.
Hmm so there are those that you are one-passing for over a year, and they learn from being perma-scrambled how? What good are they in the queues?
Your idea of the practice pond I like somewhat. I m not sure why people have to be forced to leave it, after a set time. But how about gradually limiting rewards? Kind of a compromise.
So the practice queues break up previous teams, and randomly group people together. (like the Borg RA, so the tech is there). At VA, you get 50 arenas, and CnH matches, with normal rewards, at the same time regular queues give twice as much. Afterwards you get another 50 with half the rewards, after that no more rewards. This way you wouldn't force people to go where they don't want, but they ll still have the choice. Also players who like to pvp would enter the regular queues early. How about that? Cryptic pay attention, we might have a winner here.
P.S. Really wouldn't have thought this might actually arrive at some contsructive result.
There's a difference between the usual fed newbie and the kling newbie. More klings who decide to fully level klings do it because they like pvp and want to get better at it in some fashion. Most fed pvp emblem farmers are just there to collect rewards
The other scifimmo that's coming out is going to bury this game unless some rather dramatic content, and additions /improvements are made to this game f2p or not. (f2p only works for so many games because they just can't compete against high end p2p titles) There is then of course D3, and GW2 to think about as well as quite a few other stellar titles due out this year. The whole reason they are moving to f2p is because they are finally well under the minimal 100k subs they felt necessary to sustain any kind of profit.
The Star Wars franchise overtook Star Trek in terms of popularity a while ago, and there are many fans looking forward to ToR. However, keep in mind that this is the second attempt at a Star Wars MMO. The first was Star Wars Galaxies. However, SWG lost its #1 MMO subscriber ranking to WoW when SOE installed a patch that was extremely unpopular with its user base. The SWG players sent Sony an ultimatum: back out this patch, or we jump ship. Sony stuck to its guns, stating that it was for the good of SWG long term. Within 3 days of Sony's response, SWG lost over 50% of its user's to WoW. The rest is now history. Bottom Line: Give the customers what they want, or they will take their business elsewhere.
Cryptic decision to move STO to a F2P model was actually based on the increased profits delivered by Champions after it went F2P. This information also comes from my source mentioned above who deals with Cryptic.
I would not be surprised if Blizzard and ArenaNet create their version of the C-Store for Diablo3 and GW2 given F2P's proven performance over subscription financial models.
No one wants to learn, save for a handful who are going to learn how to pvp under the current system anyway. All this is doing is putting an artifical End to any kind of prearranged teaming. Those guys that I have been One Passing for the last year? Perfect example, and there's far from few of them out there. (and boy do they tend to send some rather......colorful tells) Basically it's going to favor that kind of player out right which unfortunately makes up the lion's share of 'pvper' in this game.
If anyone in this thread is wondering just why I'm so bitter and hateful towards this idea, it's squarely due to people not even trying in pvp, then they come onto the forums and ***** and ****** about "evil premades'' even if it's a Pug that just rolled them one 15 and 0. Heck over the last year I have even seen people name names of just who curbstomped them one, and blame cryptic and hate on that player's fleet for allowing a Premade Grade player to even PUG solo. Or they'll make various threads about how "escorts need nerfed!" etc etc, and despite incredibly civil and help offering posts, the OP will remain steadfast in their viewpoint, and or get very uncivil with various posters. I don't want any system in place that in my opinion is going to encourage that mentality, sure they exist now, but it'd be even worse if cryptic actually made a que system 'just for them' because they are being rewarded for essentially poor sportsmanship.
This is still encouraged already to a very large degree of cryptic basically saying "everyone is a winner" by handing out emblems and full rewards regardless of just how badly a player managed to embarrass themselves and their team in a game.
...<SNIP>...
The problem with the seperate que idea as it's own entity is that really there are people that are So Bad at this game that the Fleet Support NPCS put up more of a fight (and I'm not talking about the Dreadnought and Carrier either, not even a Typhoon) than people that have been pvping as long as I have or longer. It's not really good practice to play against those level of players. It doesn't teach you anything other than Space Bar and Buffs Kill People. To really start to learn the game, you have to face people better than yourself so you can see what you are doing wrong, Regularly.
...<SNIP>...
The above provides ample proof that queues need separating. Obviously you are not being remotely challenged by that group of PVP'ers you've been 1-passing for over a year, and they will probably never get any better. The same probably holds true for those who just started playing the game, and yet are forced to compete with fully geared VA1's / LG1's. So, why have them compete in your same arena if they do nothing more than serve as target practice? You can still fight these same opponents in the non-team PVP queue if you so choose, and the results will still be the same, right? If this is the case, then why deny players what they are asking for? You do realize that these players won't stay here forever while you repeatedly shoot them down. If their STO progress hits a brick wall, then they will move onto other games rather than waste their time being phaser-fodder, and in those other titles, they may be the ones applying a beat-down to everyone else.
If players really want to learn, let them approach you for advice... do not impose it on them if they don't want your words of wisdom.
Regardless of what happens, if Cryptic provided non-teamed players a queue of their own, then they still get to complete with other similar players in STO, while the team-oriented PVP'ers continue playing in their original queues.
I don't see how your idea is going to encourage people to join the conventional ques. Maybe do what Starcraft 2 does instead, where the "open random ques" don't count for anything (like a custom game in sc2), unless you win. (you get 3 emblems for winning in a Random Game set) And maybe after a set amount of wins to losses you lose the ability to que up for the Random Games again. (much like the 'practice league') Winning the "conventional que" nets you 6 emblems instead of 3, along with much higher Merit Points.
Exclusive drop items, especially those with stunning visuals, tend to attract a lot of attention and recognition. If they are very rare bind-on-equip drops, then they can command serious monetary amounts on exchange. Big example: efficient bridge officers. Imagine these dropping only in Conventional queues. Who in their right STO-focused mind wouldn't want to have a chance at getting these for free in the conventional queues?
If you haven't already realized it, the bigger the carrot, the larger the general player interest. To avoid rampant farming of such exclusive items, they should be a specific rare drop, and only to the winning side players.
...<SNIP>...
If you change your idea to a Practice Que System, where you have a limited number of games in it (that proven teams can't get in or get access to) then that would be a much better idea than a permanent No Team que. Those people with Friends get what they want (variety in opponents) and new guys get what they want time to practice and sharpen up abit before worrying about running into people as good or far better.
We'll say the Practice Que Ladder, lasts until you've won 30 or 40 matches. After that it graduates you into the normal que system.
Why implement the above as a limited feature? Why not just leave it out there for everyone to use whenever they want? It can even be a "king-of-the-hill" queue where the player get progressively higher rewards as they remain victorious, but each opponent gets a stacking buff that makes them progressively harder than the last.
There are many options here... just gotta be open to new ideas
There's a difference between the usual fed newbie and the kling newbie. More klings who decide to fully level klings do it because they like pvp and want to get better at it in some fashion. Most fed pvp emblem farmers are just there to collect rewards
A "Are you as cool and skilled as a Klingon" requirement shall be introduced for all FEDplayers.
If they pass they may practice with the cool kids. Otherwise there would only be KvK matches, and we all know how well that is going with all the cool and skilled players looking for a real competition.
Said feature shall be abandoned, just like the KDF as soon as the Romulans are back. In their tutorial players shall do horrid things to anything that spreads the disgusting smell of Klingon cowardice and inferiority. The PG rating can be re-enabled later, via C-store ...
A "Are you as cool and skilled as a Klingon" requirement shall be introduced for all FEDplayers.
If they pass they may practice with the cool kids. Otherwise there would only be KvK matches, and we all know how well that is going with all the cool and skilled players looking for a real competition.
Said feature shall be abandoned, just like the KDF as soon as the Romulans are back. In their tutorial players shall do horrid things to anything that spreads the disgusting smell of Klingon cowardice and inferiority. The PG rating can be re-enabled later, via C-store ...
think about it man, most feds just pve, and if that's what they want to do that's great. They come to pvp for added emblems.
The ones who roll kling and stick it out to LG have at least a passing interest in pvp. So they get in matches, get bloodied, and get better.
It's not that the factions are different but the people's motivations behind them. Fix pvp by making a sizable difference in victory / loss rewards, THEN the feds who go to pvp will actually want to win and formulate different tactics.
I'm talking about the emblem farmers and the ones who think because they got beaten they need to rage in zone chat about fairness.
It's people, people are people. Klings were advertised as pvp centric long ago, and since there's only so much pve content kling side, one's either a TRIBBLE or likes klingons and battle when leveling one up.
lol, glad to see you come around, just read the thread again and think of Klingon PUGs instead of ROFLstomp QQnoobs.
Hmm so there are those that you are one-passing for over a year, and they learn from being perma-scrambled how? What good are they in the queues?
Your idea of the practice pond I like somewhat. I m not sure why people have to be forced to leave it, after a set time. But how about gradually limiting rewards? Kind of a compromise.
So the practice queues break up previous teams, and randomly group people together. (like the Borg RA, so the tech is there). At VA, you get 50 arenas, and CnH matches, with normal rewards, at the same time regular queues give twice as much. Afterwards you get another 50 with half the rewards, after that no more rewards. This way you wouldn't force people to go where they don't want, but they ll still have the choice. Also players who like to pvp would enter the regular queues early. How about that? Cryptic pay attention, we might have a winner here.
P.S. Really wouldn't have thought this might actually arrive at some contsructive result.
The problem with them is I don't think even the practice que would help them. They'd be kind of a speed bump on the way to a pvp prospects greatness. They really aren't any good in the ques sadly as anything other than helping it pop.
Well the reason I suggested a set time limit was partly due to how it's setup in starcraft 2. (though they aren't even as generous as I am. it's 50 matches win or lose and then you can't do it anymore... of course you can skip the practice league all together and should be able to in this game too if they did it) I proposed the idea so people would eventually have to grow to being able to pvp if they wanted to continue winning emblems etc.
The idea of diminishing returns on rewards can also work as well, since eventually the solo qers really would only be playing for the sake of playing, and to get rewarded they'd have to step up to the non practice league, however in that case we might have to adjust your numbers abit (so it happens a little sooner. Some people -really- don't play that often)
The Star Wars franchise overtook Star Trek in terms of popularity a while ago, and there are many fans looking forward to ToR. However, keep in mind that this is the second attempt at a Star Wars MMO. The first was Star Wars Galaxies. However, SWG lost its #1 MMO subscriber ranking to WoW when SOE installed a patch that was extremely unpopular with its user base. The SWG players sent Sony an ultimatum: back out this patch, or we jump ship. Sony stuck to its guns, stating that it was for the good of SWG long term. Within 3 days of Sony's response, SWG lost over 50% of its user's to WoW. The rest is now history. Bottom Line: Give the customers what they want, or they will take their business elsewhere.
Cryptic decision to move STO to a F2P model was actually based on the increased profits delivered by Champions after it went F2P. This information also comes from my source mentioned above who deals with Cryptic.
I would not be surprised if Blizzard and ArenaNet create their version of the C-Store for Diablo3 and GW2 given F2P's proven performance over subscription financial models.
The above provides ample proof that queues need separating. Obviously you are not being remotely challenged by that group of PVP'ers you've been 1-passing for over a year, and they will probably never get any better. The same probably holds true for those who just started playing the game, and yet are forced to compete with fully geared VA1's / LG1's. So, why have them compete in your same arena if they do nothing more than serve as target practice? You can still fight these same opponents in the non-team PVP queue if you so choose, and the results will still be the same, right? If this is the case, then why deny players what they are asking for? You do realize that these players won't stay here forever while you repeatedly shoot them down. If their STO progress hits a brick wall, then they will move onto other games rather than waste their time being phaser-fodder, and in those other titles, they may be the ones applying a beat-down to everyone else.
If players really want to learn, let them approach you for advice... do not impose it on them if they don't want your words of wisdom.
Regardless of what happens, if Cryptic provided non-teamed players a queue of their own, then they still get to complete with other similar players in STO, while the team-oriented PVP'ers continue playing in their original queues.
Exclusive drop items, especially those with stunning visuals, tend to attract a lot of attention and recognition. If they are very rare bind-on-equip drops, then they can command serious monetary amounts on exchange. Big example: efficient bridge officers. Imagine these dropping only in Conventional queues. Who in their right STO-focused mind wouldn't want to have a chance at getting these for free in the conventional queues?
If you haven't already realized it, the bigger the carrot, the larger the general player interest. To avoid rampant farming of such exclusive items, they should be a specific rare drop, and only to the winning side players.
Why implement the above as a limited feature? Why not just leave it out there for everyone to use whenever they want? It can even be a "king-of-the-hill" queue where the player get progressively higher rewards as they remain victorious, but each opponent gets a stacking buff that makes them progressively harder than the last.
There are many options here... just gotta be open to new ideas
Blizzard won't have a cstore for D3. However they will have a system in the auction house where you can buy, or legally Sell Items for Real Money. (and it can either be used as credit for your blizzard account... to say.. pay for wow each month, or some vanity item in the blizz store, or can be sent directly to your bankaccount. That's right in D3 Gold Farming is going Legit)
Actually I've seen guys with TRIBBLE gear with newbie toons and new to pvp at VA, get decent results before (those are usually the ones I immediately try to get into the fleet if possible) Even rookies can be better than most of of the one pass club.
I don't go about telling people how to build their ships that's a completely voluntary process on their part. If they post a thread here making a typical fed pugger whine fest, I'll offer to help or maybe give some general advice. Most of the time though, by the time I get to such a thread it's already well...devolved.
I'd rather have a graduation system. (another reason I wish this game had actually took off. so Matchmaking and Brackets could have been implemented, but several... well "fantastic'' ideas of cryptic's have prevented that from ever happening I think) When people graduate out of the practice league, they'll have to pvp like we currently have, and at that point since they've already got quite a few wins under their belt, if they have any intention on getting better they'll have to seek out like minded players like we all did 'back then'. Or seek out old bitter pvpers like myself and a slew of others to team up with
Ideally this situation would never have come to pass with pvp. Even as recent as six months ago, the pvp community was much stronger (in my opinion) with a lot more pvp focused fleets. It was a good time to be a new guy or gal learning to pvp in my opinion because if you wanted it there was at least one fleet out there that probably fit your playstyle. Now there's only a handful of pvp fleets left, some with very similar styles and only a couple that differ to varying degrees.
I just hope the Devs can turn this game around. I'd hate to have had the last year and change to go up in smoke due to Deliberate Neglect and Abuse on cryptic's part of things.
So players like me whom have Pugged since the Begining and know enough members of the community to easily (ok sometimes easily) synchronize teamplay on the fly to do well in a Pug enviroment, How do I not get handicapped for my experience and the ability to adapt to team play?
I mean, I am not a great PvP'er ( or even good in my own eyes) but when I team with those Klinks who tutored me back before release and I've flown with often enough to know thier tactics/builds and become a minipremade in the PuG, how does one control that and still keep it fair to me as a player and to those I am playing against?
Autoteam dissolving will only go so far and random queing up of players to discourage mini-premies can only work so well when you know alot of the small PvP community.
To those that discount the "difference" between playing KDF and playing Fed PvP.
Humbly, I may be one of those examples. I started STO with no interest in PvP, found it as I leveled my first Klink in the River of Blood that was the ques back then (I miss them so), learned tips from the forums, asked questions of my betters and worked to improve once I found the enjoyment of it. My fed experiences never put me in a position to HAVE to do this when I leveld that toon.
The "difference" of the factions in regards to PvP is a much fact as it is fantasy, but no less true.
So players like me whom have Pugged since the Begining and know enough members of the community to easily (ok sometimes easily) synchronize teamplay on the fly to do well in a Pug enviroment, How do I not get handicapped for my experience and the ability to adapt to team play?
... how does one control that and still keep it fair to me as a player and to those I am playing against?
Autoteam dissolving will only go so far and random queing up of players to discourage mini-premies can only work so well when you know alot of the small PvP community.
To those that discount the "difference" between playing KDF and playing Fed PvP.
...
Hmm i realy don't see how you would be handicapped. If anything you would meet more players like yourself in the open queues. With less afkers thrown in. Meaning better PUGs or PUGmades. As for the difference of the factions... well lets just say i never could stand Klingons, but if you can form a good PUG on the fly with a KDF toon, you should be able to do so on FED side.
Practicing on-the-fly adaption is kind of the whole point of having a no-teams queue, as far as i am concerned. Making sure that the other team has to do the same, is hardly a handycap, i just don't see how that is less fair to anybody...
Hmm i realy don't see how you would be handicapped. If anything you would meet more players like yourself in the open queues. With less afkers thrown in. Meaning better PUGs or PUGmades. As for the difference of the factions... well lets just say i never could stand Klingons, but if you can form a good PUG on the fly with a KDF toon, you should be able to do so on FED side.
Practicing on-the-fly adaption is kind of the whole point of having a no-teams queue, as far as i am concerned. Making sure that the other team has to do the same, is hardly a handycap, i just don't see how that is less fair to anybody...
My apoligies the premise under which i was thinking at the time was from the PoV that there was a magical code written to seperate those considered (if only my onw mind) of a caliber above the norm through iether a statisacal nature or repetitive PUG syndrome analysis algorythm. (Trek Tech Speak is cool)
I met and know those types of players now ( in fact they quite thrashed me earlier) and see them often in my playtime in the Ques. (day 2 and I am sore).
If we ( I use the term for me loosely) are seperated from the norm and play among ourslef in joyable destructive glee somehow in a ingame que system.... What/Who would judge/set the requirements of said Upper Que?
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Totally hear you on that one. I've got coworkers and former coworkers who will be picking up TOR, as well as a few STO friends.
Hopefully STO will be F2P by then, and I can still log in on my BoP or noobula and pvp for free. Can't say what others will do, but I'll stop by from time to time to see if cryptic gets their head out of their buttocks.
That may be true, but let's do a quick general listing of players who normally queue for PVP:
1 - Organized Prebuilt Teams (competition oriented)
2 - Teams of Friends / Fleet member (non-competition oriented; mostly a social group)
3 - Solo PVP'ers who PVP mostly for fun / challenge
4 - PVP'ers who actively participate only for rewards / emblems / leveling
5 - AFK'ers - just there for rewards; not interested in any PVP whatsoever.
Some groups do have shared interests and objectives, but certain group combinations in the same arena tend to cause problems. For example, there are Type1 player groups that actively grieve CnH where they know most will be Type3's or 4. Type5's are the bane of all PVP teams... their presence is usually enough to shift the game in favor of the opposing team. Frankly, I'd like to see Type5 players have a separate queue where they can still get their rewards without negatively impacting Player Type 1, 2, and 3.
In a nutshell, the large variety of players warrants different queues to meet their particular needs. Perhaps the non-team queue could be created for just CnH only, while keeping Arena strictly team only.
I also suggested a rewards-system that pays out far more for actually winning in conventional team arenas (thereby denying most AFK'ers access to the listed exclusive team PVP drops):
http://forums.startrekonline.com/showpost.php?p=3757987&postcount=33
Either way, I'm open to suggestions, because the current conventional queue system with its ridiculous player count requirements and 60+ minute wait times isn't working for myself and many other who have already voiced their opinions in this thread. If enough of us leave this game because Cryptic isn't willing to give us what we want, which is a more tailored and balanced PVP system, then they only have themselves to blame.
The non-team queue is flexible enough to support anything from 16 vs 16 down to 1 vs 1. Exact combat results will always vary depending on the captains the their respective builds, but at least they got to choose where to play. Also keep this in mind: Many players can jump games as easily as they jump queues, and keeping STO PVP's current queue system (including the long wait times and emblem reward grinds) is a sure way to lose players long term, even with the upcomning F2P system factored in.
Can you at least explain how you arrived at the above conclusion? I don't know about your sources, but mine actually has Cryptic as a customer, and they're moving to the F2P microtransaction system because its revenue stream far-exceeds monthly subscription by more than double. So is STO going to be dead soon? I don't think so...
Can you please explain how giving PVP players a choice is artificial selection? I'll agree with your statement if you can at least put your reasoning in text.
Also, the current system already creates artificial player participation demands, previously posted in this thread:
http://forums.startrekonline.com/showpost.php?p=3760309&postcount=142
PVP will return to its former speed and glory once they dump the above code, or until F2P goes live. Until then, be prepared to wait 60+ minutes per match off peak hours.
Answer: a separate queue will give new players exposure to the basics of PVP... pretty much like training wheels. The level of team play in that arena will be no where near as demanding as the conventional queues. New players do not have to worry about being kill-farmed 50+ times by the same group of 5 seasoned player who are there only to grief and nothing else. Once those players are comfortable enough with the basics of ship to ship combat, then they can more onto a more team-oriented environment where coordination is the next discipline to master.
The suggested team reward system above will insure that winning a team PVP match nets more than just emblems and credits, not to mention attract more players into the traditional queues. Once F2P goes live, and the broken PVP player count code scrapped, then PVP will start moving again like it did during STO's first few months.
Anyway, I'm certain that I've already covered the above previously, but somehow it just keeps coming back again and again...
This is the game industry's natural selection process in action again. If a new game title is that much better than any current title, then customers will naturally try out the new game to see how it compares. From there they can make an educated choice about which game provides a more enjoyable experience.
Also, do we really think that the "poor rookies" will invariably suffer just because they get to learn how to play the game from scratch? Sometimes the learning process provides more entertainment and first-hand experience that can never be taught by anyone, especially by seasoned players who only serve to spoil the surprises.
There are already many sub-divisions within the PVP community, and the sheer number of opposing responses in this thread proves the latter. Denying a feature that is wanted by many STO players will only serve to accelerate their departure from this game. If you think otherwise, then no amount of proof will ever change your mind.
Admittedly, I will be one of many players here who will be picking up TOR along with Diablo3 when they come out. That does not mean I will leave STO permanently, especially since I have so many friends that I made here through my fleet Vent. However, I am keeping my options open if STO doesn't remove the PVP queue player count requirements.
The other scifimmo that's coming out is going to bury this game unless some rather dramatic content, and additions /improvements are made to this game f2p or not. (f2p only works for so many games because they just can't compete against high end p2p titles) There is then of course D3, and GW2 to think about as well as quite a few other stellar titles due out this year. The whole reason they are moving to f2p is because they are finally well under the minimal 100k subs they felt necessary to sustain any kind of profit.
No one wants to learn, save for a handful who are going to learn how to pvp under the current system anyway. All this is doing is putting an artifical End to any kind of prearranged teaming. Those guys that I have been One Passing for the last year? Perfect example, and there's far from few of them out there. (and boy do they tend to send some rather......colorful tells) Basically it's going to favor that kind of player out right which unfortunately makes up the lion's share of 'pvper' in this game.
If anyone in this thread is wondering just why I'm so bitter and hateful towards this idea, it's squarely due to people not even trying in pvp, then they come onto the forums and ***** and ****** about "evil premades'' even if it's a Pug that just rolled them one 15 and 0. Heck over the last year I have even seen people name names of just who curbstomped them one, and blame cryptic and hate on that player's fleet for allowing a Premade Grade player to even PUG solo. Or they'll make various threads about how "escorts need nerfed!" etc etc, and despite incredibly civil and help offering posts, the OP will remain steadfast in their viewpoint, and or get very uncivil with various posters. I don't want any system in place that in my opinion is going to encourage that mentality, sure they exist now, but it'd be even worse if cryptic actually made a que system 'just for them' because they are being rewarded for essentially poor sportsmanship.
This is still encouraged already to a very large degree of cryptic basically saying "everyone is a winner" by handing out emblems and full rewards regardless of just how badly a player managed to embarrass themselves and their team in a game.
I don't see how your idea is going to encourage people to join the conventional ques. Maybe do what Starcraft 2 does instead, where the "open random ques" don't count for anything (like a custom game in sc2), unless you win. (you get 3 emblems for winning in a Random Game set) And maybe after a set amount of wins to losses you lose the ability to que up for the Random Games again. (much like the 'practice league') Winning the "conventional que" nets you 6 emblems instead of 3, along with much higher Merit Points.
The problem with the seperate que idea as it's own entity is that really there are people that are So Bad at this game that the Fleet Support NPCS put up more of a fight (and I'm not talking about the Dreadnought and Carrier either, not even a Typhoon) than people that have been pvping as long as I have or longer. It's not really good practice to play against those level of players. It doesn't teach you anything other than Space Bar and Buffs Kill People. To really start to learn the game, you have to face people better than yourself so you can see what you are doing wrong, Regularly.
If you change your idea to a Practice Que System, where you have a limited number of games in it (that proven teams can't get in or get access to) then that would be a much better idea than a permanent No Team que. Those people with Friends get what they want (variety in opponents) and new guys get what they want time to practice and sharpen up abit before worrying about running into people as good or far better.
We'll say the Practice Que Ladder, lasts until you've won 30 or 40 matches. After that it graduates you into the normal que system.
Hmm so there are those that you are one-passing for over a year, and they learn from being perma-scrambled how? What good are they in the queues?
Your idea of the practice pond I like somewhat. I m not sure why people have to be forced to leave it, after a set time. But how about gradually limiting rewards? Kind of a compromise.
So the practice queues break up previous teams, and randomly group people together. (like the Borg RA, so the tech is there). At VA, you get 50 arenas, and CnH matches, with normal rewards, at the same time regular queues give twice as much. Afterwards you get another 50 with half the rewards, after that no more rewards. This way you wouldn't force people to go where they don't want, but they ll still have the choice. Also players who like to pvp would enter the regular queues early. How about that? Cryptic pay attention, we might have a winner here.
P.S. Really wouldn't have thought this might actually arrive at some contsructive result.
The Star Wars franchise overtook Star Trek in terms of popularity a while ago, and there are many fans looking forward to ToR. However, keep in mind that this is the second attempt at a Star Wars MMO. The first was Star Wars Galaxies. However, SWG lost its #1 MMO subscriber ranking to WoW when SOE installed a patch that was extremely unpopular with its user base. The SWG players sent Sony an ultimatum: back out this patch, or we jump ship. Sony stuck to its guns, stating that it was for the good of SWG long term. Within 3 days of Sony's response, SWG lost over 50% of its user's to WoW. The rest is now history. Bottom Line: Give the customers what they want, or they will take their business elsewhere.
Cryptic decision to move STO to a F2P model was actually based on the increased profits delivered by Champions after it went F2P. This information also comes from my source mentioned above who deals with Cryptic.
I would not be surprised if Blizzard and ArenaNet create their version of the C-Store for Diablo3 and GW2 given F2P's proven performance over subscription financial models.
The above provides ample proof that queues need separating. Obviously you are not being remotely challenged by that group of PVP'ers you've been 1-passing for over a year, and they will probably never get any better. The same probably holds true for those who just started playing the game, and yet are forced to compete with fully geared VA1's / LG1's. So, why have them compete in your same arena if they do nothing more than serve as target practice? You can still fight these same opponents in the non-team PVP queue if you so choose, and the results will still be the same, right? If this is the case, then why deny players what they are asking for? You do realize that these players won't stay here forever while you repeatedly shoot them down. If their STO progress hits a brick wall, then they will move onto other games rather than waste their time being phaser-fodder, and in those other titles, they may be the ones applying a beat-down to everyone else.
If players really want to learn, let them approach you for advice... do not impose it on them if they don't want your words of wisdom.
Regardless of what happens, if Cryptic provided non-teamed players a queue of their own, then they still get to complete with other similar players in STO, while the team-oriented PVP'ers continue playing in their original queues.
Exclusive drop items, especially those with stunning visuals, tend to attract a lot of attention and recognition. If they are very rare bind-on-equip drops, then they can command serious monetary amounts on exchange. Big example: efficient bridge officers. Imagine these dropping only in Conventional queues. Who in their right STO-focused mind wouldn't want to have a chance at getting these for free in the conventional queues?
If you haven't already realized it, the bigger the carrot, the larger the general player interest. To avoid rampant farming of such exclusive items, they should be a specific rare drop, and only to the winning side players.
Why implement the above as a limited feature? Why not just leave it out there for everyone to use whenever they want? It can even be a "king-of-the-hill" queue where the player get progressively higher rewards as they remain victorious, but each opponent gets a stacking buff that makes them progressively harder than the last.
There are many options here... just gotta be open to new ideas
A "Are you as cool and skilled as a Klingon" requirement shall be introduced for all FEDplayers.
If they pass they may practice with the cool kids. Otherwise there would only be KvK matches, and we all know how well that is going with all the cool and skilled players looking for a real competition.
Said feature shall be abandoned, just like the KDF as soon as the Romulans are back. In their tutorial players shall do horrid things to anything that spreads the disgusting smell of Klingon cowardice and inferiority. The PG rating can be re-enabled later, via C-store ...
think about it man, most feds just pve, and if that's what they want to do that's great. They come to pvp for added emblems.
The ones who roll kling and stick it out to LG have at least a passing interest in pvp. So they get in matches, get bloodied, and get better.
It's not that the factions are different but the people's motivations behind them. Fix pvp by making a sizable difference in victory / loss rewards, THEN the feds who go to pvp will actually want to win and formulate different tactics.
I'm talking about the emblem farmers and the ones who think because they got beaten they need to rage in zone chat about fairness.
It's people, people are people. Klings were advertised as pvp centric long ago, and since there's only so much pve content kling side, one's either a TRIBBLE or likes klingons and battle when leveling one up.
The problem with them is I don't think even the practice que would help them. They'd be kind of a speed bump on the way to a pvp prospects greatness. They really aren't any good in the ques sadly as anything other than helping it pop.
Well the reason I suggested a set time limit was partly due to how it's setup in starcraft 2. (though they aren't even as generous as I am. it's 50 matches win or lose and then you can't do it anymore... of course you can skip the practice league all together and should be able to in this game too if they did it) I proposed the idea so people would eventually have to grow to being able to pvp if they wanted to continue winning emblems etc.
The idea of diminishing returns on rewards can also work as well, since eventually the solo qers really would only be playing for the sake of playing, and to get rewarded they'd have to step up to the non practice league, however in that case we might have to adjust your numbers abit (so it happens a little sooner. Some people -really- don't play that often)
Blizzard won't have a cstore for D3. However they will have a system in the auction house where you can buy, or legally Sell Items for Real Money. (and it can either be used as credit for your blizzard account... to say.. pay for wow each month, or some vanity item in the blizz store, or can be sent directly to your bankaccount. That's right in D3 Gold Farming is going Legit)
Actually I've seen guys with TRIBBLE gear with newbie toons and new to pvp at VA, get decent results before (those are usually the ones I immediately try to get into the fleet if possible) Even rookies can be better than most of of the one pass club.
I don't go about telling people how to build their ships that's a completely voluntary process on their part. If they post a thread here making a typical fed pugger whine fest, I'll offer to help or maybe give some general advice. Most of the time though, by the time I get to such a thread it's already well...devolved.
I'd rather have a graduation system. (another reason I wish this game had actually took off. so Matchmaking and Brackets could have been implemented, but several... well "fantastic'' ideas of cryptic's have prevented that from ever happening I think) When people graduate out of the practice league, they'll have to pvp like we currently have, and at that point since they've already got quite a few wins under their belt, if they have any intention on getting better they'll have to seek out like minded players like we all did 'back then'. Or seek out old bitter pvpers like myself and a slew of others to team up with
Ideally this situation would never have come to pass with pvp. Even as recent as six months ago, the pvp community was much stronger (in my opinion) with a lot more pvp focused fleets. It was a good time to be a new guy or gal learning to pvp in my opinion because if you wanted it there was at least one fleet out there that probably fit your playstyle. Now there's only a handful of pvp fleets left, some with very similar styles and only a couple that differ to varying degrees.
I just hope the Devs can turn this game around. I'd hate to have had the last year and change to go up in smoke due to Deliberate Neglect and Abuse on cryptic's part of things.
I mean, I am not a great PvP'er ( or even good in my own eyes) but when I team with those Klinks who tutored me back before release and I've flown with often enough to know thier tactics/builds and become a minipremade in the PuG, how does one control that and still keep it fair to me as a player and to those I am playing against?
Autoteam dissolving will only go so far and random queing up of players to discourage mini-premies can only work so well when you know alot of the small PvP community.
To those that discount the "difference" between playing KDF and playing Fed PvP.
Humbly, I may be one of those examples. I started STO with no interest in PvP, found it as I leveled my first Klink in the River of Blood that was the ques back then (I miss them so), learned tips from the forums, asked questions of my betters and worked to improve once I found the enjoyment of it. My fed experiences never put me in a position to HAVE to do this when I leveld that toon.
The "difference" of the factions in regards to PvP is a much fact as it is fantasy, but no less true.
Hmm i realy don't see how you would be handicapped. If anything you would meet more players like yourself in the open queues. With less afkers thrown in. Meaning better PUGs or PUGmades. As for the difference of the factions... well lets just say i never could stand Klingons, but if you can form a good PUG on the fly with a KDF toon, you should be able to do so on FED side.
Practicing on-the-fly adaption is kind of the whole point of having a no-teams queue, as far as i am concerned. Making sure that the other team has to do the same, is hardly a handycap, i just don't see how that is less fair to anybody...
My apoligies the premise under which i was thinking at the time was from the PoV that there was a magical code written to seperate those considered (if only my onw mind) of a caliber above the norm through iether a statisacal nature or repetitive PUG syndrome analysis algorythm. (Trek Tech Speak is cool)
I met and know those types of players now ( in fact they quite thrashed me earlier) and see them often in my playtime in the Ques. (day 2 and I am sore).
If we ( I use the term for me loosely) are seperated from the norm and play among ourslef in joyable destructive glee somehow in a ingame que system.... What/Who would judge/set the requirements of said Upper Que?