I think it's utterly gorgeous. I wasn't sure at first, but now I want this ship very much.
And what about something for us, who love Constitution (especially refit:-)) and other stuff from the old good days? :-)
Maybe I have to wait for season 5? I am not log in since march, because there are no reason for it.
The refit Constitution is my all-time favorite Trek ship, bar none. Having said that...we're in the 25th century now. I don't think it's reasonable to expect further iterations of a design that's 150+ years old.
I've spent a good chunk of my evening yesterday staring at the screenshots of the Enterprise-F. I pored over it, wanting to take note of the details, wanting to give constructive feedback. I'll start by saying that I find it quite charming. Congratulations on everyone whom has been involved in that project.
Now, my critique.
Shape:
She turned out great.
The saucer still gives me strong vibes from DJ Curtis' Eclipse-class Enterprise-G, but I don't see that as a bad thing. Great minds sometime do think alike. The thicker plating around the nose is a nice enough hint that it'll end up being emphasized at more in future iterations of the Enterprise. I did notice the lack of secondary deflector (like the Rhode Island or the Vesta) which is a bit disappointing, but not a surprise - I figure keeping smoother lines up front was deemed important.
I enjoy the streamlined look of the saucer-inset impulse engines (they feel slightly Discovery-class-ish... I take that as a good thing). The saucer's aft shuttlebay is an appealing take on a mix of Galaxy and Sovereign.
The dual necks are still a feature I need to get used to - I still feel she might have looked much better with a more unified body - but I'm sort of okay with it. Especially so when I observed that it actually had much more to do with the catamaran-hulls of the Akira and Steamrunner classes.
The engineering hull has many element features of note. The kind of galaxy/intrepid deflector dish stands out - I've a positive opinion of it so far. I was actually amused to note that the ship's underside - with the way the necks mated with the secondary hull, actually looked a lot like the ventral side of the Comet-class. CapnLogan may have had his doubts about the Comet-class, but I view that bit of design lineage as rather positive.
The secondary hull then goes to be surprisingly smooth ventrally (perhaps a little too much, hence the sense some people have in finding it whale-like). I'm not sure what to make of the square hatch-like thing; cargo doors? Warp Core ejection hatch? Then, there's that noticeable inset just under the shuttlebay - I'm willing to bet that's where the auxiliary ship nests! XD
The dorsal side of the engineering hull appeals to me in its clean smoothness while still retaining a sense that it's still a mechanical object - I think the middle groove helps a lot in that. The broad aft end I find consistent with the way the rest of the ship flows; while compromising with the more modern shuttlebays found on the Luna and Comet classes. The texture of those clamshell doors is also pretty detailed - I think the extra care there was wise. I also love the blocky setup of the rear RCS thrusters
I enjoy how the hull to the side of the secondary hull flares out in a very Enterprise-C/Ambassador-class fashion to then flow into warp pylons that have a fair resemblance with that of the Vesta-class. I was thrilled to see the inclusion of the impulse engines inset into the dorsal ribbing of the pylons (my suggestion got taken! Yay!). I love the implementation CapnLogan made - it follows the Intrepid and Vesta pylon-mounted impulse engines, but it doesn't copy them.
I personally think it would have served as an even stronger visual element if the pylon impulse engines would've been positioned ventrally on the pylon (to add to the detail on a lower angle view of the ship, since the bottom has a bit less visual features than the top on a lower half angle); but that's a very minor nitpick observation. I still love it! (I do wonder how the impulse trails will be dealt with when the ship separates, though)
Some don't like the warp nacelles... but I do. The front bussard collector is combines some elements of the Sovereign and TOS Constitution before adding some of its own traits. The sides of the nacelles have a bit of Sovereign and Constitution-Refit in them. The dorsal curve given to the top encourages the ship looking sleek and fast and they feel well proportioned to me overall. I like that the rear of the nacelles was built to accommodate the thinness of the warp trail.
I have to wonder, though: where are the airlocks (like the one CapnLogan placed in front of the Intrepid-class' primary hull). I can't, for the life of me, see any airlock anywhere over the model. Perhaps it'd be a good idea to add some - for example, on each side of the saucer? On the sides of the secondary hull?
Textures:
I've taken note that a lot more care than I've ever previously seen has gone in the layout of the ships textures. The shield grid pattern is still halfhazard, but all the grebbles feel like they've been positioned more deliberately. I do feel that the UV suffers a bit around the geo on the dorsal front of the saucer. If you look at the more frontal view, the adherence to a single common texture material without making the texture customized to each ship shows as the lines don't see to flow well with the elevation changes.
The thicker nose of the saucer might've been a good place to avoid having the lines cross over elevation changes - while it probably looks good from where the texture is projected (probably from above) - the effect from other perspectives is lesser.
I also noted that a texture on the underside of the saucer - darker paint - seemed a bit squiggly. Around the aft end of the starboard ventral phaser strip, toward the center of the saucer, the outer outline of the paint looks rather uneven.
Finally, I noticed that the starfleet symbol with the red stripe running across the side of the secondary hull had windows right over it. Is that really a good idea?
Weaponry:
I like the torpedo launchers. The way they've been made up on the underside of the saucer and the twin recessed ports on each side of the shuttlebay look great.
The phaser strips - the four above and under the saucer, two more on the ship's belly, the two under the shuttlebay and the two at the dorsal ends of the warp nacelles - are the simple black texture thin phaser strips shown on the Intrepid and Sovereign, rather than the textured ones that can be found on other ships like the Prometheus. The choice for that puzzles me, as I find the latter version far more appealing and distinctive to how phaser strips should look like in STO.
Also, a bit of wierdness with the phaser strips is that at certain angles, it kind of looks like the are reflected/cast shade against the hull as if they were separate objects (seehere).
Finally, some phaser strips - those under the shuttlebay area most especially, feel a little longer than it feels they were made to be with the way the model comes together. I remember one forum poster warmly recommended longer strips, but from an aesthetic point of view I don't think it was a good idea.
Bridge:
I really wish I had a better view of the ship. From the pictures we have, it's hard to make out.
The first look I had on it had me a bit disappointed - it felt more like a simple oval - like the Luna-class bridge cake has. CapnLogan said he had a distinctive bridge style he was going for, and I felt somewhat let down there.
I peered at it, and I could start to note some details. From the front, there seems to be a long light strip - or perhaps a panoramic window at the forefront of the bridge like the Enterprise in the Star Trek (2009) movie - a possible cool element. A more rearward view shows a strip on top that I hope is actually more of a groove. There are the lounge windows at the very rear, with some extruded surfaces I can't quite make out. The bridge view from this angle is just confusing, so there's not much else to tell.
Auxiliary craft:
Speculation time. The auxiliary craft seems to next under the shuttlebay. The recessed shape evokes in me the size of a ship similar to the Defiant in scale, but with the general shape tied between the Argo and the Sovereign's Captain's Yatch - that hollow doesn't seem to support a ship with nacelles separate from the main body.
Saucer separation:
I'm still stumped about that. I know that the saucer's impulse engines are supposed to not detach and stay with the rest of the ship. I know to expect a prometheus-like forward platform. I know from Al Rivera that the bridge personal are not supposed to change bridges when the primary hull separates.
Based on that, though, all I've had were pretty crazy ideas. One was with the triangle part (top/bottom) staying while the U/V shaped front of the primary hull would detach with part of the Comet-like hull parts going along with it as very thin warp drives (justifying the double neck as also housing two very thin secondary warp nacelles - though it's a far stretch since the rear part seems to seamlessly flow toward the warp pylons). The remaining triangle part would have the slope in front of the bridge join up with the front of the triangle's point on the underside.
It make the detached front part of the primary hull really thin (almost like a So'na ship), but it's the only way I could figure out how the two necks could be involved in the 'saucer' separation.
* * *
This was my critique.
I really appreciate the effort that went into it. If a mass market model kit of that ship could eventually be released (beyond the model Adam Ihle is bound to receive), I definitely want to get my hands on it.
Hatch is square, with 4 lights on each corner. Hatch is closed, obviously
I can see how people find the ship to be whale like. I can't disagree with this assessment but I also don't find it to be an offensive suggestion. I tend to take inspiration for my organic forms in ship design from nature itself. It wouldn't surprise me if subconsciously this was a factor.
I'm glad to hear that all of the little details are finding good critique in the way they are integrated. That said, I'd like to add some airlocks like you suggested.
Also, your suggestion for impulse vents on the pylons was well recieved here at Cryptic and was just the detail we needed to sell it from an aft-player-angle.
The nacelles were tricky and went through several iterations. Ihle's original design was very cool but didn't fit in with the revised motifs. During critique during the DTNE diaries it came to my attention that the design looked flimsy as well so the final product has a more integrated and substantial feel to it where the "hood" isn't so much a hood now as it is a ferring. We still managed to retain some Sovvy like elements while taking the design a step forward.
Textures:
The UV's on top of the saucer have since been adjusted since these screens were taken. Much cleaner now. I'll straighten out the squiggles on the ventral saucer on Monday.
Weaponry:
The phaser strips will get some attention as well. Some of them are UV'd to the STO style hatches, some are still just black. That is an oversight on my part. While I was polishing the ship I only moved a few of them over to the hatch-style UV area (belly, top saucer) and forgot the rest. I'll unify them ASAP.
Another note, the phaser strip models are sunken in to the skin of the craft and not floating. The shadow you are seeing is created by a chamfer on the top of the saucer. It will make sense in 3d when you see it
Bridge:
OH the bridge! I re-made the bridge section atop the "cake" only a few days before the final shots were taken and given to Marcom. Some of the shots are pre-polish, some are post. The post polish ship has a bridge with a top like the one you might have seen in the Perpetual concept for a bridge interior. I spent a day with Jeremy Mattson revising the bridge because the one that was there was just dull and uninspired so we redesigned it... I'll get some shots of that for you soon You won't be disappointed.
Auxiliary craft:
As of right now, we haven't fully designed the Aux craft... well we've got a design for the craft itself but I also must model an integration platform. The section you see now where the aft shuttle bay is will be a modular section that can be removed entirely at a stardock and replaced with a docking section for a full aux craft. I intend to model a modular dock that will be both a secondary shuttle bay AND a aux craft dock. But yes, you've got the idea.
Saucer separation:
This should help you imagine it. Screenies will be released soon.
My exact reasons why I cannot stand this ship, nor what cryptic has done with this contest, and how to fix most of the most extreme issues, and make this ship something we're not going to look back in a few months and ask 'what the *BLEEP* were we thinking' over:
Saucer/Engineering Hull Relationship: http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=21j8ygx&s=7
Issues with the engineering shuttlebay, and the silly use of a clamshell door in a design that doesn't make optimal use of it: http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2rddtlk&s=7
Bad concept implimentation on the underside of the engineering hull, and the blending from engineering hull to saucer (especially the scallop underneath the shuttlebay, NONONO!): http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=33w48kk&s=7
The Extreme proportion failures and flow issues between engineering hull and the saucer: http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=1zqfzig&s=7
More examples of the 'guppy'/'potato' look of the engineering hull, and the reason why the saucer section and engineering hull don't look like part of the same ship when head on: http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2z8xnad&s=7
The final, utter dealbreaker for me, and conclusions on why it really fails hardcore in establishing a unique identity for itself, and the reason why it's best served as just making it an assault cruiser retrofit: http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=28ktvle&s=7
In short, Cryptic, you fell WAY too hard for the rule of cool, instead of trying to keep the design classy and graceful. You failed to make a unique, and distinctive Enterprise, and you show still major issues in judgement, and let Cap'n Logan get a little too caught up in his own world when designing federation ships. While it has a great many good points, and would look somewhat nice once the dealbreaking issues with the front of the engineering hull are fixed, it still fails to be distinctive enough to justify it's existance as a whole new T5 class, and in the end, is nothing more than a fan-refit of the Sovereign class, and because of that, you have failed the contest which you hosted, and the fans who expected something more and better of you than this. AND the winner of this contest, who managed to come up with an actual reason for dual necks, instead of just slapping a straight hull to hull connection.
I am so very dissappointed in this end result, and it's not even worth shooting on sight.
My exact reasons why I cannot stand this ship, nor what cryptic has done with this contest, and how to fix most of the most extreme issues, and make this ship something we're not going to look back in a few months and ask 'what the *BLEEP* were we thinking' over:
Saucer/Engineering Hull Relationship: http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=21j8ygx&s=7
Issues with the engineering shuttlebay, and the silly use of a clamshell door in a design that doesn't make optimal use of it: http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2rddtlk&s=7
Bad concept implimentation on the underside of the engineering hull, and the blending from engineering hull to saucer (especially the scallop underneath the shuttlebay, NONONO!): http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=33w48kk&s=7
The Extreme proportion failures and flow issues between engineering hull and the saucer: http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=1zqfzig&s=7
More examples of the 'guppy'/'potato' look of the engineering hull, and the reason why the saucer section and engineering hull don't look like part of the same ship when head on: http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2z8xnad&s=7
The final, utter dealbreaker for me, and conclusions on why it really fails hardcore in establishing a unique identity for itself, and the reason why it's best served as just making it an assault cruiser retrofit: http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=28ktvle&s=7
In short, Cryptic, you fell WAY too hard for the rule of cool, instead of trying to keep the design classy and graceful. You failed to make a unique, and distinctive Enterprise, and you show still major issues in judgement, and let Cap'n Logan get a little too caught up in his own world when designing federation ships. While it has a great many good points, and would look somewhat nice once the dealbreaking issues with the front of the engineering hull are fixed, it still fails to be distinctive enough to justify it's existance as a whole new T5 class, and in the end, is nothing more than a fan-refit of the Sovereign class, and because of that, you have failed the contest which you hosted, and the fans who expected something more and better of you than this. AND the winner of this contest, who managed to come up with an actual reason for dual necks, instead of just slapping a straight hull to hull connection.
I am so very dissappointed in this end result, and it's not even worth shooting on sight.
So you're saying you won't be flying this ship then?
LOL i'm just trolling. I see your points here. Kinda bummed about it but as you know, it's out of both our hands now.
I read your crits and looked at your images. While most of your critiques are opinion, you state in one image that there is no purpose for the scallop beneath the shuttlebay. There is a purpose for that section, which I explained in my above post.
While I have complete respect for your opinions on my design, I just disagree. I'm kindof offended that you marginalized my design sense as just going for a cool factor though... this was much more to me than just trying to be cool. This is my very best effort, my most honest work that I have ever done on a Federation design.
So you're saying you won't be flying this ship then?
LOL i'm just trolling. I see your points here. Kinda bummed about it but as you know, it's out of both our hands now.
I read your crits and looked at your images. While most of your critiques are opinion, you state in one image that there is no purpose for the scallop beneath the shuttlebay. There is a purpose for that section, which I explained in my above post.
While I have complete respect for your opinions on my design, I just disagree. I'm kindof offended that you marginalized my design sense as just going for a cool factor though... this was much more to me than just trying to be cool.
he hated the ship from the moment it won, and probably even before that... so don't mind him too much (at least he has good reasons, from his point of view at least)
he hated the ship from the moment it won, and probably even before that... so don't mind him, haters gotta hate after all (but at least he has good reasons, from his point of view at least)
Careful with that meme, Trek
Cpt_Richardson has a well thought out view on this design and as I stated I completely respect his views on the design. I don't think he's being a hater. We're all passionate about this stuff. I can learn a great deal from criticism and hopefully in the future I can come up with design motifs that are more appealing.
You Didn't... you aren't... you didn't confuse the Ambassador for the JJ Prise... did you?
I don't think we can be friends anymore.
Edit: Question: those panels on the front of the eng. hull closest to the deflector dish - are those a darker color (between the normal hull color and the back color) or is it just weird lighting?
Not sure the dark panels look that great, it would blend better with a unified color down there...
So you're saying you won't be flying this ship then?
Truth be told, I'd rather imagine a blank spot where it is whenever I see it. It's got some major issues to work out before it's released, and even then, you've really failed the spirit of the contest, and failed to make a visually distinct Enterprise, with a valid reason for a new class, instead of refitting a Sovereign. It's hull separation lines are identical to the proposed ones for the Sovereign class, and it's so close in design that it might as well be called a sovereign refit. It's the exact same issue you've had so many times before, just in a new and different way. You're trying to make something cool, but trek ships aren't designed to be 'cool'. The Prime, the -A, the -B, C, D, E, all of them were designed with a minimum of detail (some moreso than others), and a high flow from one section to the other. The ones that have a high dislike quotent, like the -D, -B, and -C, have less of it than others, and issues with proportions, the same issues this 'Enterprise' does.
It doesn't have a coherent feel to it, from the top of the saucer being too high up, and giving the ship an off-kilter look from many upper angles, to the guppy 'necks' and the striping on the front of the engineering hull. If you would bring the leading edge of the necks up against the hull, instead of spacing them out, and reduce the outer mass of the neck section, you would get a much better flow, and loose a lot of the proportion issues, and NO SHIP in starfleet has stripes all over the front of it's engineering hull. If you're going for an armor look, make it a solid plate, and don't plaster anything over it. It makes the design look immature in genesis, even if you had an actual thought as to why they should be there.
And there really is no point in having a clamshell door engineering saucer bay. Having a recessed roll up, or break-slide open shuttlebay would both make sense, and not disrupt the back of the ship, and take advantage of the design somewhat better.
Another main issue is, as shown, the scalloping on the underside of the engineering hull, under the shuttlebay. Why is that there!?! I don't see any hatches within it for cargo access, and it's just extraneous detailing and hullforming for no actual gain of function. The design would look far better with it removed. Also, the attempt at blending the sides of the engineering hull into the reverse slope of the engineering hull underside is commendable, but it would work better if you extended the front edge of it out further, and kept a sharp, defined angle from the sloping inwards to the flat of the curve. It would pay homage to every single other enterprise, and in a way that steps forward, instead of making something icky looking.
Essentially, everything you've put in to try and move it forward, you could slap on the -E, and get the exact same effect.
But, I give great props for the nacelle/pylons, and the work on the saucer shuttlebay/impulse engine setup. Unique and a step forward, but once again could be put on a sovvy, and get the exact same effect.
In short, Cryptic, you fell WAY too hard for the rule of cool, instead of trying to keep the design classy and graceful. You failed to make a unique, and distinctive Enterprise, and you show still major issues in judgement, and let Cap'n Logan get a little too caught up in his own world when designing federation ships.
I am so very dissappointed in this end result, and it's not even worth shooting on sight.
My exact reasons why I cannot stand this ship, nor what cryptic has done with this contest, and how to fix most of the most extreme issues, and make this ship something we're not going to look back in a few months and ask 'what the *BLEEP* were we thinking' over:
Saucer/Engineering Hull Relationship: http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=21j8ygx&s=7
Issues with the engineering shuttlebay, and the silly use of a clamshell door in a design that doesn't make optimal use of it: http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2rddtlk&s=7
Bad concept implimentation on the underside of the engineering hull, and the blending from engineering hull to saucer (especially the scallop underneath the shuttlebay, NONONO!): http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=33w48kk&s=7
The Extreme proportion failures and flow issues between engineering hull and the saucer: http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=1zqfzig&s=7
More examples of the 'guppy'/'potato' look of the engineering hull, and the reason why the saucer section and engineering hull don't look like part of the same ship when head on: http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2z8xnad&s=7
The final, utter dealbreaker for me, and conclusions on why it really fails hardcore in establishing a unique identity for itself, and the reason why it's best served as just making it an assault cruiser retrofit: http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=28ktvle&s=7
In short, Cryptic, you fell WAY too hard for the rule of cool, instead of trying to keep the design classy and graceful. You failed to make a unique, and distinctive Enterprise, and you show still major issues in judgement, and let Cap'n Logan get a little too caught up in his own world when designing federation ships. While it has a great many good points, and would look somewhat nice once the dealbreaking issues with the front of the engineering hull are fixed, it still fails to be distinctive enough to justify it's existance as a whole new T5 class, and in the end, is nothing more than a fan-refit of the Sovereign class, and because of that, you have failed the contest which you hosted, and the fans who expected something more and better of you than this. AND the winner of this contest, who managed to come up with an actual reason for dual necks, instead of just slapping a straight hull to hull connection.
I am so very dissappointed in this end result, and it's not even worth shooting on sight.
You are certainly entitled to your opinion, as we all are. But your comments are suggesting you speak for the majority of Star Trek fans, STO players, & the winner of the contest himself. I assure you, you do not represent the vast majority of Star Trek fans (as, so far, nearly ever fan I've personally talked to like this as the new Enterprise), STO players (seeing as the reactions throughout the STO forums & ingame suggest this ship is being well recieved) , or the winner of the contest (as he's stated here in forums he likes what's been done with his winning design).
Stating your personal opinion is one thing, assuming everyone shares your opinion is another. I certainly don't feel this ship is a failure. I certainly don't foresee myself looking back on this ship negatively. And I certainly don't feel Cryptic has failed us regarding this ship, so far. We all can see & understand you have issues with this ship. Very well, as not everyone can be happy about something all the time. But don't speak for other fans & players, as not all of us share your opinion.
You Didn't... you aren't... you didn't confuse the Ambassador for the JJ Prise... did you?
I don't think we can be friends anymore.
Edit: Question: those panels on the front of the eng. hull closest to the deflector dish - are those a darker color (between the normal hull color and the back color) or is it just weird lighting?
Not sure the dark panels look that great, it would blend better with a unified color down there...
lol im posting all over i mixed up your names rofl... stupid.
those are colored panels. Aesthetics. Players will have the option to turn them off entirely or to change the color or put hull paint on it.
While they asked for the F design. No ship should resemble the J in any such way. That was a ship capable or jumping from galaxy to galaxy. Or so says it's descriptions. The current timeline is at war and as such ships should look beefier and stronger then the previous generations. The ship looks nice and I can't wait to take it out. If you dislike the design, the easiest thing to do is not roam the forums and bash the ship on every post you can. Just leave it alone and worry about something else in game.
Just make it a single armored plate, it'll look much better. No point in having colored panels if there isn't a purpose to them.
they have purpose to them, things ALWAYS have purpose to them (just like the 'needless' details on other ships are designed to look cool, though opinions don't always see it that way)
You are certainly entitled to your opinion, as we all are. But your comments are suggesting you speak for the majority of Star Trek fans, STO players, & the winner of the contest himself. I assure you, you do not represent the vast majority of Star Trek fans (as, so far, nearly ever fan I've personally talked to like this as the new Enterprise), STO players (seeing as the reactions throughout the STO forums & ingame suggest this ship is being well recieved) , or the winner of the contest (as he's stated here in forums he likes what's been done with his winning design).
Stating your personal opinion is one thing, assuming everyone shares your opinion is another. I certainly don't feel this ship is a failure. I certainly don't foresee myself looking back on this ship negatively. And I certainly don't feel Cryptic has failed us regarding this ship, so far. We all can see & understand you have issues with this ship. Very well, as not everyone can be happy about something all the time. But don't speak for other fans & players, as not all of us share your opinion.
I appreciate your defense and sentiments here but I to me it seems the Captain is speaking for himself, I do not get the impression he is attempting to speak for a majority of STO players.
He has good points. I'll keep them in mind in the future.
I appreciate your defense and sentiments here but I to me it seems the Captain is speaking for himself, I do not get the impression he is attempting to speak for a majority of STO players.
He has good points. I'll keep them in mind in the future.
Regardless of his points, I still recieved the impression he was speaking for others besides himself. Either way, I've said my peace.
I appreciate your defense and sentiments here but I to me it seems the Captain is speaking for himself, I do not get the impression he is attempting to speak for a majority of STO players.
He has good points. I'll keep them in mind in the future.
Most of them could be implimented right now, though, and only take a little bit of work to add a lot of polish to the ship, and, even if nothing at all what the fans had asked for (you know exactly what I'm talking about), or in the original spirit of the contest, would at least make it something that is actually worthy of the currently knee-jerk praise being put upon it. (lessen the curve of the saucer back end, adjust the shuttlebay and the front of the necks, and get rid of the stripes on the front of the engineering hull, and I'd be able to at least stand it)
I'd love to see a directly side-on view, to show you what I'm talking about.
Most of them could be implimented right now, though, and only take a little bit of work to add a lot of polish to the ship, and, even if nothing at all what the fans had asked for (you know exactly what I'm talking about), or in the original spirit of the contest, would at least make it something that is actually worthy of the currently knee-jerk praise being put upon it. (lessen the curve of the saucer back end, adjust the shuttlebay and the front of the necks, and get rid of the stripes on the front of the engineering hull, and I'd be able to at least stand it)
Indeed. I'll have a look and I'll let you know. At this point your suggestions are more likely to manifest in a variant.... nonetheless it is valuable feedback sir.
Indeed. I'll have a look and I'll let you know. At this point your suggestions are more likely to manifest in a variant.... nonetheless it is valuable feedback sir.
I sincerely hope so Capn bc I'm actually a fan of how the design looks right now. Looks awesome and very 25th century federation just my opinion though
Indeed. I'll have a look and I'll let you know. At this point your suggestions are more likely to manifest in a variant.... nonetheless it is valuable feedback sir.
Either way, that's what it'd take to get my extremely reserved support of the ship, even if I'll never fully endorse it as a separate class from the assault cruisers (like I've said in the past, it's a cognitive trap, and it's the reason I dropped from entering the contest.), and that's what it would take to make it aesthetically acceptable in the long run.
While I have complete respect for your opinions on my design, I just disagree. I'm kindof offended that you marginalized my design sense as just going for a cool factor though... this was much more to me than just trying to be cool. This is my very best effort, my most honest work that I have ever done on a Federation design.
He's been an abject hater the entire way, in fact I recall some doomsday proclamations when the winner was first announced, I'm not sure he deserves as much notice as you give him, it just encourages his tirades.
I certainly can see the love and effort you have placed into this ship, as well as noticing how you evolved in your ship art over the past year or so. Quality and care are readily apparent, and the majority of people are going to really like the F.
If anything, take solace in knowing that every Star Trek ship of note have had their noisy detractors, so you stand in good company. Besides, haters gonna hate.;)
Most of them could be implimented right now, though, and only take a little bit of work to add a lot of polish to the ship, and, even if nothing at all what the fans had asked for (you know exactly what I'm talking about), or in the original spirit of the contest, would at least make it something that is actually worthy of the currently knee-jerk praise being put upon it. (lessen the curve of the saucer back end, adjust the shuttlebay and the front of the necks, and get rid of the stripes on the front of the engineering hull, and I'd be able to at least stand it)
I'd love to see a directly side-on view, to show you what I'm talking about.
Eh, a lot of the areas you complain about, such as the engineering hull stripes and the shuttlebay, are some of my favorite features. Conversely, you're apparently a fan of the nacelles, which are by far the part I dislike the most. I didn't like that tapered angular style on the Nomad or the Recon Science vessels, and I don't care for it here. However, CapnLogan has clearly put a lot of effort into this ship, and it shows. I'd hardly call praise of it "knee-jerk" just because it disagrees with your personal tastes.
Comments
The refit Constitution is my all-time favorite Trek ship, bar none. Having said that...we're in the 25th century now. I don't think it's reasonable to expect further iterations of a design that's 150+ years old.
0o
umm... errr...... ahhh.... mmmmm. well......
*puts on his Mongo Face* Mongo Like Candy!
((hides))
and to reinterate a common saying....
GIMME!GIMME!GIMME!GIMME!GIMME!GIMME!GIMME!GIMME!GIMME!
Now, my critique.
Shape:
She turned out great.
The saucer still gives me strong vibes from DJ Curtis' Eclipse-class Enterprise-G, but I don't see that as a bad thing. Great minds sometime do think alike. The thicker plating around the nose is a nice enough hint that it'll end up being emphasized at more in future iterations of the Enterprise. I did notice the lack of secondary deflector (like the Rhode Island or the Vesta) which is a bit disappointing, but not a surprise - I figure keeping smoother lines up front was deemed important.
I enjoy the streamlined look of the saucer-inset impulse engines (they feel slightly Discovery-class-ish... I take that as a good thing). The saucer's aft shuttlebay is an appealing take on a mix of Galaxy and Sovereign.
The dual necks are still a feature I need to get used to - I still feel she might have looked much better with a more unified body - but I'm sort of okay with it. Especially so when I observed that it actually had much more to do with the catamaran-hulls of the Akira and Steamrunner classes.
The engineering hull has many element features of note. The kind of galaxy/intrepid deflector dish stands out - I've a positive opinion of it so far. I was actually amused to note that the ship's underside - with the way the necks mated with the secondary hull, actually looked a lot like the ventral side of the Comet-class. CapnLogan may have had his doubts about the Comet-class, but I view that bit of design lineage as rather positive.
The secondary hull then goes to be surprisingly smooth ventrally (perhaps a little too much, hence the sense some people have in finding it whale-like). I'm not sure what to make of the square hatch-like thing; cargo doors? Warp Core ejection hatch? Then, there's that noticeable inset just under the shuttlebay - I'm willing to bet that's where the auxiliary ship nests! XD
The dorsal side of the engineering hull appeals to me in its clean smoothness while still retaining a sense that it's still a mechanical object - I think the middle groove helps a lot in that. The broad aft end I find consistent with the way the rest of the ship flows; while compromising with the more modern shuttlebays found on the Luna and Comet classes. The texture of those clamshell doors is also pretty detailed - I think the extra care there was wise. I also love the blocky setup of the rear RCS thrusters
I enjoy how the hull to the side of the secondary hull flares out in a very Enterprise-C/Ambassador-class fashion to then flow into warp pylons that have a fair resemblance with that of the Vesta-class. I was thrilled to see the inclusion of the impulse engines inset into the dorsal ribbing of the pylons (my suggestion got taken! Yay!). I love the implementation CapnLogan made - it follows the Intrepid and Vesta pylon-mounted impulse engines, but it doesn't copy them.
I personally think it would have served as an even stronger visual element if the pylon impulse engines would've been positioned ventrally on the pylon (to add to the detail on a lower angle view of the ship, since the bottom has a bit less visual features than the top on a lower half angle); but that's a very minor nitpick observation. I still love it! (I do wonder how the impulse trails will be dealt with when the ship separates, though)
Some don't like the warp nacelles... but I do. The front bussard collector is combines some elements of the Sovereign and TOS Constitution before adding some of its own traits. The sides of the nacelles have a bit of Sovereign and Constitution-Refit in them. The dorsal curve given to the top encourages the ship looking sleek and fast and they feel well proportioned to me overall. I like that the rear of the nacelles was built to accommodate the thinness of the warp trail.
I have to wonder, though: where are the airlocks (like the one CapnLogan placed in front of the Intrepid-class' primary hull). I can't, for the life of me, see any airlock anywhere over the model. Perhaps it'd be a good idea to add some - for example, on each side of the saucer? On the sides of the secondary hull?
Textures:
I've taken note that a lot more care than I've ever previously seen has gone in the layout of the ships textures. The shield grid pattern is still halfhazard, but all the grebbles feel like they've been positioned more deliberately. I do feel that the UV suffers a bit around the geo on the dorsal front of the saucer. If you look at the more frontal view, the adherence to a single common texture material without making the texture customized to each ship shows as the lines don't see to flow well with the elevation changes.
The thicker nose of the saucer might've been a good place to avoid having the lines cross over elevation changes - while it probably looks good from where the texture is projected (probably from above) - the effect from other perspectives is lesser.
I also noted that a texture on the underside of the saucer - darker paint - seemed a bit squiggly. Around the aft end of the starboard ventral phaser strip, toward the center of the saucer, the outer outline of the paint looks rather uneven.
Finally, I noticed that the starfleet symbol with the red stripe running across the side of the secondary hull had windows right over it. Is that really a good idea?
Weaponry:
I like the torpedo launchers. The way they've been made up on the underside of the saucer and the twin recessed ports on each side of the shuttlebay look great.
The phaser strips - the four above and under the saucer, two more on the ship's belly, the two under the shuttlebay and the two at the dorsal ends of the warp nacelles - are the simple black texture thin phaser strips shown on the Intrepid and Sovereign, rather than the textured ones that can be found on other ships like the Prometheus. The choice for that puzzles me, as I find the latter version far more appealing and distinctive to how phaser strips should look like in STO.
Also, a bit of wierdness with the phaser strips is that at certain angles, it kind of looks like the are reflected/cast shade against the hull as if they were separate objects (see here).
Finally, some phaser strips - those under the shuttlebay area most especially, feel a little longer than it feels they were made to be with the way the model comes together. I remember one forum poster warmly recommended longer strips, but from an aesthetic point of view I don't think it was a good idea.
Bridge:
I really wish I had a better view of the ship. From the pictures we have, it's hard to make out.
The first look I had on it had me a bit disappointed - it felt more like a simple oval - like the Luna-class bridge cake has. CapnLogan said he had a distinctive bridge style he was going for, and I felt somewhat let down there.
I peered at it, and I could start to note some details. From the front, there seems to be a long light strip - or perhaps a panoramic window at the forefront of the bridge like the Enterprise in the Star Trek (2009) movie - a possible cool element. A more rearward view shows a strip on top that I hope is actually more of a groove. There are the lounge windows at the very rear, with some extruded surfaces I can't quite make out. The bridge view from this angle is just confusing, so there's not much else to tell.
Auxiliary craft:
Speculation time. The auxiliary craft seems to next under the shuttlebay. The recessed shape evokes in me the size of a ship similar to the Defiant in scale, but with the general shape tied between the Argo and the Sovereign's Captain's Yatch - that hollow doesn't seem to support a ship with nacelles separate from the main body.
Saucer separation:
I'm still stumped about that. I know that the saucer's impulse engines are supposed to not detach and stay with the rest of the ship. I know to expect a prometheus-like forward platform. I know from Al Rivera that the bridge personal are not supposed to change bridges when the primary hull separates.
Based on that, though, all I've had were pretty crazy ideas. One was with the triangle part (top/bottom) staying while the U/V shaped front of the primary hull would detach with part of the Comet-like hull parts going along with it as very thin warp drives (justifying the double neck as also housing two very thin secondary warp nacelles - though it's a far stretch since the rear part seems to seamlessly flow toward the warp pylons). The remaining triangle part would have the slope in front of the bridge join up with the front of the triangle's point on the underside.
It make the detached front part of the primary hull really thin (almost like a So'na ship), but it's the only way I could figure out how the two necks could be involved in the 'saucer' separation.
* * *
This was my critique.
I really appreciate the effort that went into it. If a mass market model kit of that ship could eventually be released (beyond the model Adam Ihle is bound to receive), I definitely want to get my hands on it.
Here is a response:
To answer some questions -
The hatch on the belly is a warp-core ejection port a la Enterprise-E
http://johneaves.wordpress.com/2009/04/17/ejecting-the-warp-core-from-the-enterprise-e/
Hatch is square, with 4 lights on each corner. Hatch is closed, obviously
I can see how people find the ship to be whale like. I can't disagree with this assessment but I also don't find it to be an offensive suggestion. I tend to take inspiration for my organic forms in ship design from nature itself. It wouldn't surprise me if subconsciously this was a factor.
I'm glad to hear that all of the little details are finding good critique in the way they are integrated. That said, I'd like to add some airlocks like you suggested.
Also, your suggestion for impulse vents on the pylons was well recieved here at Cryptic and was just the detail we needed to sell it from an aft-player-angle.
The nacelles were tricky and went through several iterations. Ihle's original design was very cool but didn't fit in with the revised motifs. During critique during the DTNE diaries it came to my attention that the design looked flimsy as well so the final product has a more integrated and substantial feel to it where the "hood" isn't so much a hood now as it is a ferring. We still managed to retain some Sovvy like elements while taking the design a step forward.
Textures:
The UV's on top of the saucer have since been adjusted since these screens were taken. Much cleaner now. I'll straighten out the squiggles on the ventral saucer on Monday.
Weaponry:
The phaser strips will get some attention as well. Some of them are UV'd to the STO style hatches, some are still just black. That is an oversight on my part. While I was polishing the ship I only moved a few of them over to the hatch-style UV area (belly, top saucer) and forgot the rest. I'll unify them ASAP.
Another note, the phaser strip models are sunken in to the skin of the craft and not floating. The shadow you are seeing is created by a chamfer on the top of the saucer. It will make sense in 3d when you see it
Bridge:
OH the bridge! I re-made the bridge section atop the "cake" only a few days before the final shots were taken and given to Marcom. Some of the shots are pre-polish, some are post. The post polish ship has a bridge with a top like the one you might have seen in the Perpetual concept for a bridge interior. I spent a day with Jeremy Mattson revising the bridge because the one that was there was just dull and uninspired so we redesigned it... I'll get some shots of that for you soon
Auxiliary craft:
As of right now, we haven't fully designed the Aux craft... well we've got a design for the craft itself but I also must model an integration platform. The section you see now where the aft shuttle bay is will be a modular section that can be removed entirely at a stardock and replaced with a docking section for a full aux craft. I intend to model a modular dock that will be both a secondary shuttle bay AND a aux craft dock. But yes, you've got the idea.
Saucer separation:
This should help you imagine it. Screenies will be released soon.
Saucer/Engineering Hull Relationship: http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=21j8ygx&s=7
Issues with the engineering shuttlebay, and the silly use of a clamshell door in a design that doesn't make optimal use of it: http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2rddtlk&s=7
Bad concept implimentation on the underside of the engineering hull, and the blending from engineering hull to saucer (especially the scallop underneath the shuttlebay, NONONO!): http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=33w48kk&s=7
The Extreme proportion failures and flow issues between engineering hull and the saucer: http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=1zqfzig&s=7
More examples of the 'guppy'/'potato' look of the engineering hull, and the reason why the saucer section and engineering hull don't look like part of the same ship when head on: http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2z8xnad&s=7
The final, utter dealbreaker for me, and conclusions on why it really fails hardcore in establishing a unique identity for itself, and the reason why it's best served as just making it an assault cruiser retrofit: http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=28ktvle&s=7
In short, Cryptic, you fell WAY too hard for the rule of cool, instead of trying to keep the design classy and graceful. You failed to make a unique, and distinctive Enterprise, and you show still major issues in judgement, and let Cap'n Logan get a little too caught up in his own world when designing federation ships. While it has a great many good points, and would look somewhat nice once the dealbreaking issues with the front of the engineering hull are fixed, it still fails to be distinctive enough to justify it's existance as a whole new T5 class, and in the end, is nothing more than a fan-refit of the Sovereign class, and because of that, you have failed the contest which you hosted, and the fans who expected something more and better of you than this. AND the winner of this contest, who managed to come up with an actual reason for dual necks, instead of just slapping a straight hull to hull connection.
I am so very dissappointed in this end result, and it's not even worth shooting on sight.
So you're saying you won't be flying this ship then?
LOL i'm just trolling. I see your points here. Kinda bummed about it but as you know, it's out of both our hands now.
I read your crits and looked at your images. While most of your critiques are opinion, you state in one image that there is no purpose for the scallop beneath the shuttlebay. There is a purpose for that section, which I explained in my above post.
While I have complete respect for your opinions on my design, I just disagree. I'm kindof offended that you marginalized my design sense as just going for a cool factor though... this was much more to me than just trying to be cool. This is my very best effort, my most honest work that I have ever done on a Federation design.
Careful with that meme, Trek
Cpt_Richardson has a well thought out view on this design and as I stated I completely respect his views on the design. I don't think he's being a hater. We're all passionate about this stuff. I can learn a great deal from criticism and hopefully in the future I can come up with design motifs that are more appealing.
You Didn't... you aren't... you didn't confuse the Ambassador for the JJ Prise... did you?
I don't think we can be friends anymore.
Edit: Question: those panels on the front of the eng. hull closest to the deflector dish - are those a darker color (between the normal hull color and the back color) or is it just weird lighting?
Not sure the dark panels look that great, it would blend better with a unified color down there...
Truth be told, I'd rather imagine a blank spot where it is whenever I see it. It's got some major issues to work out before it's released, and even then, you've really failed the spirit of the contest, and failed to make a visually distinct Enterprise, with a valid reason for a new class, instead of refitting a Sovereign. It's hull separation lines are identical to the proposed ones for the Sovereign class, and it's so close in design that it might as well be called a sovereign refit. It's the exact same issue you've had so many times before, just in a new and different way. You're trying to make something cool, but trek ships aren't designed to be 'cool'. The Prime, the -A, the -B, C, D, E, all of them were designed with a minimum of detail (some moreso than others), and a high flow from one section to the other. The ones that have a high dislike quotent, like the -D, -B, and -C, have less of it than others, and issues with proportions, the same issues this 'Enterprise' does.
It doesn't have a coherent feel to it, from the top of the saucer being too high up, and giving the ship an off-kilter look from many upper angles, to the guppy 'necks' and the striping on the front of the engineering hull. If you would bring the leading edge of the necks up against the hull, instead of spacing them out, and reduce the outer mass of the neck section, you would get a much better flow, and loose a lot of the proportion issues, and NO SHIP in starfleet has stripes all over the front of it's engineering hull. If you're going for an armor look, make it a solid plate, and don't plaster anything over it. It makes the design look immature in genesis, even if you had an actual thought as to why they should be there.
And there really is no point in having a clamshell door engineering saucer bay. Having a recessed roll up, or break-slide open shuttlebay would both make sense, and not disrupt the back of the ship, and take advantage of the design somewhat better.
Another main issue is, as shown, the scalloping on the underside of the engineering hull, under the shuttlebay. Why is that there!?! I don't see any hatches within it for cargo access, and it's just extraneous detailing and hullforming for no actual gain of function. The design would look far better with it removed. Also, the attempt at blending the sides of the engineering hull into the reverse slope of the engineering hull underside is commendable, but it would work better if you extended the front edge of it out further, and kept a sharp, defined angle from the sloping inwards to the flat of the curve. It would pay homage to every single other enterprise, and in a way that steps forward, instead of making something icky looking.
Essentially, everything you've put in to try and move it forward, you could slap on the -E, and get the exact same effect.
But, I give great props for the nacelle/pylons, and the work on the saucer shuttlebay/impulse engine setup. Unique and a step forward, but once again could be put on a sovvy, and get the exact same effect.
Why are you making this personal?
You are certainly entitled to your opinion, as we all are. But your comments are suggesting you speak for the majority of Star Trek fans, STO players, & the winner of the contest himself. I assure you, you do not represent the vast majority of Star Trek fans (as, so far, nearly ever fan I've personally talked to like this as the new Enterprise), STO players (seeing as the reactions throughout the STO forums & ingame suggest this ship is being well recieved) , or the winner of the contest (as he's stated here in forums he likes what's been done with his winning design).
Stating your personal opinion is one thing, assuming everyone shares your opinion is another. I certainly don't feel this ship is a failure. I certainly don't foresee myself looking back on this ship negatively. And I certainly don't feel Cryptic has failed us regarding this ship, so far. We all can see & understand you have issues with this ship. Very well, as not everyone can be happy about something all the time. But don't speak for other fans & players, as not all of us share your opinion.
lol im posting all over i mixed up your names rofl... stupid.
those are colored panels. Aesthetics. Players will have the option to turn them off entirely or to change the color or put hull paint on it.
Just make it a single armored plate, it'll look much better. No point in having colored panels if there isn't a purpose to them.
But that'll be fixed right up in the ship tailor, so meh.
I appreciate your defense and sentiments here but I to me it seems the Captain is speaking for himself, I do not get the impression he is attempting to speak for a majority of STO players.
He has good points. I'll keep them in mind in the future.
Regardless of his points, I still recieved the impression he was speaking for others besides himself. Either way, I've said my peace.
Most of them could be implimented right now, though, and only take a little bit of work to add a lot of polish to the ship, and, even if nothing at all what the fans had asked for (you know exactly what I'm talking about), or in the original spirit of the contest, would at least make it something that is actually worthy of the currently knee-jerk praise being put upon it. (lessen the curve of the saucer back end, adjust the shuttlebay and the front of the necks, and get rid of the stripes on the front of the engineering hull, and I'd be able to at least stand it)
I'd love to see a directly side-on view, to show you what I'm talking about.
I sincerely hope so Capn bc I'm actually a fan of how the design looks right now. Looks awesome and very 25th century federation
Either way, that's what it'd take to get my extremely reserved support of the ship, even if I'll never fully endorse it as a separate class from the assault cruisers (like I've said in the past, it's a cognitive trap, and it's the reason I dropped from entering the contest.), and that's what it would take to make it aesthetically acceptable in the long run.
This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Atari Community Rules and Policies ~WishStone
Cryptic has straight up stated that they don't have the rights to tell that story.
He's been an abject hater the entire way, in fact I recall some doomsday proclamations when the winner was first announced, I'm not sure he deserves as much notice as you give him, it just encourages his tirades.
I certainly can see the love and effort you have placed into this ship, as well as noticing how you evolved in your ship art over the past year or so. Quality and care are readily apparent, and the majority of people are going to really like the F.
If anything, take solace in knowing that every Star Trek ship of note have had their noisy detractors, so you stand in good company. Besides, haters gonna hate.;)
Eh, a lot of the areas you complain about, such as the engineering hull stripes and the shuttlebay, are some of my favorite features. Conversely, you're apparently a fan of the nacelles, which are by far the part I dislike the most. I didn't like that tapered angular style on the Nomad or the Recon Science vessels, and I don't care for it here. However, CapnLogan has clearly put a lot of effort into this ship, and it shows. I'd hardly call praise of it "knee-jerk" just because it disagrees with your personal tastes.