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Forums > Home› Feedback› Klingon Discussion

Rethinking Rank=Sash

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
edited February 2011 in Klingon Discussion
I was killing tribbles in the Azlesa as I often do when I need to clear my mind and think...

It hit me then that sashes in Klingon culture are not simply a symbol of rank, but often are the place of choice to show off ones house affiliation. Think back to when Worf joins the House of Martok in "Soldiers of the Empire", where does he place the house emblem? On his sash.

Furthermore, the individual sash does not seem to represent a specific rank. we've even seen Officers of the KDF not wearing sashes despite holding ranks like Captain or Commander and yet they do not wear sashes (see Commander Kruge, Captain Koloth, Captain Kargan), and yet there are lowly Lt. like Klag who do wear the sash.

Add to this confusion the fact that there are now Orion, Gorn, Nausicaan and a plethora of "others" fighting under the KDF umbrella. Currently their only way to show their rank on their uniform is through the use of rank-sashes.

What I propose is that insignia be designed for all the ranks that is separate from the sashes, and likewise sashes be designed that incorporate these rank insignia on to them. I'm not suggesting we scrap the current sashes that are in game, but I am suggesting that when the art team has time we supplement them.

Thoughts?
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments

  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    I'm all for a change here. I never liked sashes representing rank, especially when its not canon. It doesn't really work on non-Klingons.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    Well I know many of us would love to see the cloak or even the something like the Commander Kruge's "stole" as Memory Alpha calls it. I'd also love to hear and see more about what's supposed to happen with these special Vet shoulder pads we got and their grow as you go ability.

    But I think of all of that as more "costume" options than signs of rank, and the more I think about it the more I think that the KDF with its foreign allies needs a more distinct rank insignia system.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    As much as I would like this, it takes them ages to make the simplest changes to KDF uniforms and characters, let alone add new components.

    If they start right now, they might be able to finish this feature by 2072. It takes a while for the Drinking Bird to get it done.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    ThomasGideon wrote:
    As much as I would like this, it takes them ages to make the simplest changes to KDF uniforms and characters, let alone add new components.

    If they start right now, they might be able to finish this feature by 2072. It takes a while for the Drinking Bird to get it done.

    Regardless I figure it is worth asking... maybe they'll consider something once we finally get those Gorn updates.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    I always thought the rank would be represented by the small round discs on the leather collar - I'm sure you remember, one on each side with a runic symbol inside?

    That said, Klingons likely do not have as many ranks as Starfleet (despite copying the number of ranks in STO for gameplay purposes), so their rank system would be pretty simple. The crew knows each other well enough to not need any insignia, and outside that other people only need to know who's the Captain. This might be the purpose of the "officer coat", as this is an optional addition usually only worn outside the ship (and it does feature another, larger set of symbols).

    Remember how it was in the series? Where only the boss would wear something special? :p
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    Valias wrote:
    I always thought the rank would be represented by the small round discs on the leather collar - I'm sure you remember, one on each side with a runic symbol inside?

    That said, Klingons likely do not have as many ranks as Starfleet (despite copying the number of ranks in STO for gameplay purposes), so their rank system would be pretty simple. The crew knows each other well enough to not need any insignia, and outside that other people only need to know who's the Captain. This might be the purpose of the "officer coat", as this is an optional addition usually only worn outside the ship (and it does feature another, larger set of symbols).

    Remember how it was in the series? Where only the boss would wear something special? :p

    From the shows and movies I always got the impression that the KDF didn't care much for displays of rank, but that being said, the KDF in STO has Orions, Gorns, Nausicaans and a bunch of "others" in it, so I could see them making the ranks and structure of rank far more clear. I don't see the classic Klingon sash as the appropriate means of doing that.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    Well, the only other species likely having a use for military ranks would be the Gorn. :D

    I do not believe the KDF is working as closely with its allies as the game makes you think they would, anyways. Were STO a TV show, every species would have its own ships and crews, though they'd probably use KDF ranks when addressing each other just to know who is superior to whom. Kind of like the NATO works.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    Valias wrote:
    Well, the only other species likely having a use for military ranks would be the Gorn. :D

    I do not believe the KDF is working as closely with its allies as the game makes you think they would, anyways. Were STO a TV show, every species would have its own ships and crews, though they'd probably use KDF ranks when addressing each other just to know who is superior to whom. Kind of like the NATO works.

    I would agree with you in principle, but in practice my experience as an Orion, Gorn or Nausicaan takes me to the Klingon Chancellor for a promotion. While I'd love to get my promotion from the King of the Gorn Hegemony, I don't see that happening, so I'll settle for the Dev team giving me rank insignia not attached to a sash.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    Being one that has made real Klingon costumes for convetions and such, theres more to this.
    Rank is worn on ones collar One pin denotes service branch , navy or marines and the other rank.
    Sashes are a symbol of ones house and can be used to display awards and medals.
    Commander Kruge's "stole" is properly refered to as a Battle Cloak. For example on my real uniform
    on the right side of my collar armor would be the service branch in my case Klingon Navy, and on the left my rank in that case commander. For reference go to the site Klingonspace many examples of accurate
    costumes are there. And yes there are alot of variations. My pics are there too.
    anyone interested in learning more about Klingons should join the club I'm a member of
    The Klingon Assault Group. We do conventions, community events and such. And we even have a webpage on which to learn the Klingon Language.


    Qapla' batlh je!
    Marok
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    chessie5882 wrote: »
    Being one that has made real Klingon costumes for convetions and such, theres more to this.
    Rank is worn on ones collar One pin denotes service branch , navy or marines and the other rank.
    Sashes are a symbol of ones house and can be used to display awards and medals.
    Commander Kruge's "stole" is properly refered to as a Battle Cloak. For example on my real uniform
    on the right side of my collar armor would be the service branch in my case Klingon Navy, and on the left my rank in that case commander. For reference go to the site Klingonspace many examples of accurate
    costumes are there. And yes there are alot of variations. My pics are there too.
    anyone interested in learning more about Klingons should join the club I'm a member of
    The Klingon Assault Group. We do conventions, community events and such. And we even have a webpage on which to learn the Klingon Language.


    Qapla' batlh je!
    Marok

    Hey, you make these things for real? Always nice to meet someone who has some creative talent. I'll be sure to check out the pics.

    :)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Thanks to this link provided by Admiral Dr. Leonard McCoy, I think there is enough evidence that rank and sash are not related...

    http://www.fastcopyinc.com/orionpress/uniforms/klingon_uniforms.htm

    It would be nice to see these rank pins, even if they were only added onto the various sashes.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    chessie5882 wrote: »
    Being one that has made real Klingon costumes for convetions and such, theres more to this.
    Rank is worn on ones collar One pin denotes service branch , navy or marines and the other rank.
    Sashes are a symbol of ones house and can be used to display awards and medals.
    Commander Kruge's "stole" is properly refered to as a Battle Cloak. For example on my real uniform
    on the right side of my collar armor would be the service branch in my case Klingon Navy, and on the left my rank in that case commander. For reference go to the site Klingonspace many examples of accurate
    costumes are there. And yes there are alot of variations. My pics are there too.
    anyone interested in learning more about Klingons should join the club I'm a member of
    The Klingon Assault Group. We do conventions, community events and such. And we even have a webpage on which to learn the Klingon Language.


    Qapla' batlh je!
    Marok

    Sounds good to me, I like the idea of sashes being more useful for house(fleet) designation and medals.
    Are you going to be at Dragoncon this year?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Hi Roach,

    No I could not make Dragoncon this year. However I will be doing several events in Chicago time permitting the KAG ship I'm a member of the IKV Emperor's Hand is based there. We will be quite busy with at least 3 cons as well as helping support the play "A Klingon Christmas Carol" when it returns in late November.
    It's done entirely in Klingon.

    We have a meeting coming up soon to dicuss costuming and props.

    To answer the question about sashes they are not hard to make at all and you can sometimes find them on
    Ebay and there are also craft groups within KAG that make things like armor, cloaks, sashes and more for fellow warriors. We call those folks Quartermasters. You can even get prosthetic ridges and so on
    for examples please look at my pics on Klingonspace. I use my toons name Marok there as well.

    Qapla Batlh je!

    Marok
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Varrangian,


    I agree some pins and medals would be nice as well,

    Such as:

    The order of the bat'leth

    house symbols (ones you can choose)

    Klingon tri-foil

    there's many more it would be nice to have these.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    chessie5882 wrote: »
    Hi Roach,

    No I could not make Dragoncon this year. However I will be doing several events in Chicago time permitting the KAG ship I'm a member of the IKV Emperor's Hand is based there. We will be quite busy with at least 3 cons as well as helping support the play "A Klingon Christmas Carol" when it returns in late November.
    It's done entirely in Klingon.
    If you andf yors tape said play, I would like a copy. (paying for it is fine as I want no free rides)

    To answer the question about sashes they are not hard to make at all and you can sometimes find them on
    Ebay and there are also craft groups within KAG that make things like armor, cloaks, sashes and more for fellow warriors. We call those folks Quartermasters. You can even get prosthetic ridges and so on
    for examples please look at my pics on Klingonspace. I use my toons name Marok there as well.
    Unfortunately I am allergic to spirit gum to be able to use the prosthetic, my family will not let me under go surgery (haha) and I am unwilling to go as a TOS klingon.
    Thanks for the info and I have added your website to my faves.:)
    If you do ever find yourself at DragonCon, I'm the crazy caucasian partying with the Klingons.

    wIj lIjtuq reH ghaj quv

    Roach
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    The good news is there was of a tape or DVD of the play coming out, we just don't know when.


    Not everyone uses spirit gum. For those that cannot there are rubber prosthetics that you simply wear
    like a cap. I met a warrior from Canada who was allergic to the same so he simply wears a custom made
    rubber set of ridges over his head that has hair atached. TOS klingons are ok as well.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    chessie5882 wrote: »
    Varrangian,


    I agree some pins and medals would be nice as well,

    Such as:

    The order of the bat'leth

    house symbols (ones you can choose)

    Klingon tri-foil

    there's many more it would be nice to have these.

    These do sound nice...perhaps instead of them adding new sashes to the game they could just allow us to customize what we place on the sash....that would go far in placating some people would it not?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    LittleTerribleRomulan wrote:
    These do sound nice...perhaps instead of them adding new sashes to the game they could just allow us to customize what we place on the sash....that would go far in placating some people would it not?

    While I would live with the above solution, I do have a problem with this idea that sash = rank. It clearly doesn't in canon and that's annoying.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    It would be very nice indeed if one could place a fleet emblem on the sash, instead of the sleeve as a token of one's house. It would also be very nice if people could design house insignia.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    This is something I have wanted for a long time now. I do feel we need more (like 20) sashes with the ability to change colors and customized House logos. As for rank I would like TOS and modern rank pips and pins. The only ones that I see different would be General and Government sashes. A special sash for our new ambassadors instead of a uniform perhaps?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Varrangian wrote: »
    While I would live with the above solution, I do have a problem with this idea that sash = rank. It clearly doesn't in canon and that's annoying.

    Well, it is a bit annoying when they won't even consider giving the LTG's a seperate sash, and customizing your own sash hasn't even been m illed around by any of the devs...or at least that I have heard....:(
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    If I can recall, the Devs said "No way, Jos
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    TrekTheStars wrote:
    If I can recall, the Devs said "No way, Jos
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    mister_dee wrote:
    Nope, Koloth did not wear it so it's not connected.

    http://images.wikia.com/memoryalpha/en/images/9/9b/Koloth_%282268%29.jpg

    So your idea of some kind of other display of rank, like those small symbols on Koloth's uniforms, is not that far from canon...

    That's a very good point...but I still only recall captains wearing them, although my TOS is a little bit rusty :o. But yes, some kind of pin that could be displayed on the sash, collar or maybe even the arm for our more naked KDF supporters.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    TrekTheStars wrote:
    That's a very good point...but I still only recall captains wearing them, although my TOS is a little bit rusty :o. But yes, some kind of pin that could be displayed on the sash, collar or maybe even the arm for our more naked KDF supporters.

    Some wore them, some like Kruge didn't.

    http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110113202039/memoryalpha/en/images/7/74/Kruge.jpg

    Gowron did only wear it sometimes, but not always
    http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_7SVSAcj5xz4/R1RYgJ_dlaI/AAAAAAAABKw/gay5eWXnM84/s1600-R/vlcsnap-2592405.png

    We also saw lower-ranking folks like Lt Klaag wear them.
    http://www.startrek.com/legacy_media/images/200506/tng-134-klag/320x240.jpg

    Rank pips with different shapes were at least seen in "Day of the Dove" where different personell of Kang's ship had different insgnia in their uniform:

    http://www.comics101.com/comics101//news/Comics%20101/293/Kang2268.jpg

    http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20081213042213/memoryalpha/en/images/0/06/Klingon_officer%2C_Mark_Tobin.jpg

    http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20081213041738/memoryalpha/en/images/b/b3/Klingon_officer%2C_Pete_Kellett.jpg

    The two round metal thingy on the collar of a modern-day Klingon uniform seem to have a similar function but a search on the internet only reveals that some fans created their own personal system of emblems, even though they certainly look impressive.

    https://d44ytnim3cfy5.cloudfront.net/assets/1814337/lightbox/1ca1629776fa9e28b51b5b05344e9c46.jpg?1278658532

    http://www.starbase24.co.uk/pageimages/hpimage42.jpg

    But it seems to be pure fanfiction and therfore of little practical use, only inspiration.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    TrekTheStars wrote:
    If I can recall, the Devs said "No way, Jos
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Varrangian wrote: »
    Sashes are not canon for rank. In fact, Worf wore one all the time, except when he was he acted as first officer on the IKS Rotarran. Actually there are times when even Martok (the Captain of the ship) on the Rotarran did not wear his sash.

    Sashes are a sign of house affiliation not rank.

    I only mentioned that for TOS. My comment was I only saw captains wear them in TOS, not all captains, not that anyone else couldn't wear them, just that in TOS I never saw anyone but a captain wear them. The only true House affiliation I know of in TOS canon are the pins on their sash. As for rank pins, there are at least two canon rank pins in TOS.

    If you need proof go to Memory Alpha and look for yourself...to save you time I will quote it for you. "By the 2260s, Klingon uniforms were made of a gold-colored, metallic substances. Commanding officers would wear sashes across their left shoulder."

    If I'm wrong, I'm sorry. It was observation from watching the shows and getting data from Memory Alpha.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    TrekTheStars wrote:
    I only mentioned that for TOS. My comment was I only saw captains wear them in TOS, not all captains, not that anyone else couldn't wear them, just that in TOS I never saw anyone but a captain wear them. The only true House affiliation I know of in TOS canon are the pins on their sash. As for rank pins, there are at least two canon rank pins in TOS.

    If you need proof go to Memory Alpha and look for yourself...to save you time I will quote it for you. "By the 2260s, Klingon uniforms were made of a gold-colored, metallic substances. Commanding officers would wear sashes across their left shoulder."

    If I'm wrong, I'm sorry. It was observation from watching the shows and getting data from Memory Alpha.


    If you click on the "sash" in that link you posted it takes you to a page about sashes and has this to say about Klingon Sashes.
    Klingon baldric Edit

    A Klingon baldric
    The Klingon baldric was a sash that traditionally went over the left or right shoulder of noble Klingons. It contained the symbol of a Klingon House. (TOS: "Errand of Mercy")
    Some baldrics were used to hold knives or daggers. (ENT: "Broken Bow")
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Interestingly enough there are plenty of examples where the Commander of a ship did not wear a sash and a subordinate did. Kruge and Maltz. Kruge wa the Captain of the ship and Maltz was a subordinate. Then there is Kargan and Klag. Kargan was the Captain and Klag was the second officer.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Varrangian wrote: »
    Interestingly enough there are plenty of examples where the Commander of a ship did not wear a sash and a subordinate did. Kruge and Maltz. Kruge wa the Captain of the ship and Maltz was a subordinate. Then there is Kargan and Klag. Kargan was the Captain and Klag was the second officer.

    Even though my comment was only made with regard to TOS (to clarify...just the T.V. show) I agree, the sash turned into more of what we believe it to be now. I think with the more current storyline, it has nothing to do with rank.

    Here is another quote from the same page you were talking about. "A baldric was a wide, usually ornamental belt worn over one shoulder and around the waist that is typically used to carry weapons and/or denote rank. (Star Trek: Insurrection)" This quote could be where Cryptic got the idea to use the sash for rank.

    To be honest I feel that the command vest AKA stole should be used to denote who the commanding officer of the ship is and pins for anyone that don't want the stole.
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