why not? it's pretty closely been done in movie canon already.
Big difference between a dress like Jadzia's wedding gown and a loincloth. Aside from the fact that Valkris was a covert operative and not a warrior of the Defense Force.
Klingon styles in women's attire seems to gravitate largely to copious amount of cleavage. Even Jadzia's wedding dress had this giant diamond cut out right at the best part of the cleavage zone.
Indeed. Even though there were female warriors who wore a full breastplate, a general focus on TRIBBLE is pretty prevalent in post-TOS Klingon fashion. A woman's TRIBBLE are likely appreciated just as much as a man's muscles, so both genders like to show this off (we often see males wearing sleeveless vests too). In this regard, Klingon culture simply is as primitive as that. Even the aforementioned "full" breastplate still highlighted the armoured TRIBBLE with detailed ornamentation. Maybe the female wearing the armour felt her natural TRIBBLE are too small, so she tried compensating with metal ones.
IMaybe the female wearing the armour felt her natural TRIBBLE are too small, so she tried compensating with metal ones.
Actually, that could very well be the reason.
I'd imagine in a culture like the Klingons have, a healthy individual would be more desirable than a scrawny, malnourished weakling.
Now, a male can show off his strength and power rather well even with full armor. But a female with a healthy, well-fed and properly filled-out body?
Well, she can easily prove she is strong even in full plate. But how can she show that she has a healthy shape? She'd have a very difficult time proving that in layer upon layer of armor. But a diamond cut right at the cleavage would be an ideal solution, assuming the Klingon heart isn't placed similarly to a human's. And even then, a warrior worth her salt wouldn't let a foe get close enough for a stabbing thrust right on target anyway. The rest of the body is fully, or at least mostly, covered in armor, so the danger to her is only marginally greater than it would be on a male.
Those whose strength would otherwise be sufficient, but they're naturally small-breasted, or flat-chested? They would naturally wear something to compensate, to make them look bigger than they actually were.
At least it seems logical to me. I'm not exactly well-versed in Klingon lore.
"Klingons evolved battle-ready bodies on a harsh planet. The ferocity of their circumstances molded their minds, making aggression a virtue, candor a must, and utility the only criteria by which to measure value."
- Blood and Honor, Klingon Empire P&P sourcebook
If you extend the idea of "utility" on the female form, then you could argue that big TRIBBLE are an obvious indicator of readiness for maternity, so any female Klingon seeking to mate (or even just to be accepted as an equal/adult) would try to emphasize them. This would still hold true even if this is only anchored in their minds subconsciously. Basically, it's the same with Humans, just that Klingons are even more obvious about advertising this.
Interesting conversation here and I am inclined to agree with what Valias is saying. One of the KDFs advantages is that there is a certain amount of racial distinction that is completely missing on the UFPs side.
I do not like the idea of every female in the KDF suddenly sporting Orion bikinis. I do however feel that Klingons in general should have more options for clothing, especially for the custom aliens. Off duty uniforms, while I do not recall them in canon, and formal wear would be nice options for KDF players to enjoy as they will. No matter what though I cannot shake the feeling that aside from the default KDF armor custom aliens should get a few other options. Oh and the KDF armor is due for an update. It is the 24th century after all. One of these would be nice as well for those who like the TOS style KDF.
One of the KDFs advantages is that there is a certain amount of racial distinction that is completely missing on the UFPs side.
Ironically the lack in options still makes the KDF feel way more "uniform" than Starfleet. Not that this would be a bad thing - at least that's one faction that still resembles its original from the shows.
Off duty uniforms, while I do not recall them in canon, and formal wear would be nice options for KDF players to enjoy as they will.
Hmm, I recall Worf's and Dax's wedding gowns, or the clothes worn by Kor, Koloth and Kang, or the fur jacket from the Klingon Ambassador. There've been a few good examples - though I do think that combat uniforms (of which the KDF could still use a couple more canon ones!) should take precedence.
That said, according to the recent "Ask Cryptic", they do plan on removing the difference between Duty and Off Duty altogether, which is a good thing and should have never been in the game in the first place.
I agree if my orion is a kdf officer why the hell can't he wear a kdf uniform.
More options are better, the cannon TRIBBLE can always dress up how they want anyways, and if seeing an orion wearing klingon or naussican clothing makes them go into a wheezing cannon seizure then maybe it's time to engage real life at maximum warp for a few months.
I agree if my orion is a kdf officer why the hell can't he wear a kdf uniform.
Is it possible you missed the reason for this thread? Orions can wear KDF armour. See example here. This thread is about making species wear clothes that are (a) totally outside the scope of their culture and (b) part of the unique appearance of Orion characters.
More options are better, the cannon TRIBBLE can always dress up how they want anyways, and if seeing an orion wearing klingon or naussican clothing makes them go into a wheezing cannon seizure then maybe it's time to engage real life at maximum warp for a few months.
Way to go triggering Godwin's Law! Congrats, you sure made your point with that one.
If all you think about is the maximum display of skin, then maybe it's time for you to go watch a TRIBBLE movie instead of turning this game into one. Y'know, just in case you've misunderstood what this game is actually about.
PS: I'll give you a hint. It begins with "Star". Oh, and as for your typo, see my signature.
I agree if my orion is a kdf officer why the hell can't he wear a kdf uniform.
More options are better, the cannon TRIBBLE can always dress up how they want anyways, and if seeing an orion wearing klingon or naussican clothing makes them go into a wheezing cannon seizure then maybe it's time to engage real life at maximum warp for a few months.
I can answer that.
Nausicaan gear is not KDF standard equipment. That's why.
Your Orion does in fact have access to all standard KDF clothing and armor. In fact, for ages, that's all they had.
Now they have race-specific armor and clothing. Your Orion is not a Nausicaan. It cannot and will not wear Nausicaan clothes.
Sorry. I think an Orion babe would be hot in a Nausicaan half-plate and bikini, too, but it just won't happen, with any luck.
Is it possible you missed the reason for this thread? Orions can wear KDF armour. See example here. This thread is about making species wear clothes that are (a) totally outside the scope of their culture and (b) part of the unique appearance of Orion characters.
But thanks for your participation. :rolleyes:
Way to go triggering Godwin's Law! Congrats, you sure made your point with that one.
If all you think about is the maximum display of skin, then maybe it's time for you to go watch a TRIBBLE movie instead of turning this game into one. Y'know, just in case you've misunderstood what this game is actually about.
PS: I'll give you a hint. It begins with "Star". Oh, and as for your typo, see my signature.
That's not a Godwin, canon TRIBBLE is like grammarnazi it's not really comparing someone to the TRIBBLE but essentially a different way of calling someone excessively strict while also insulting them, in this case with regards to sticking to canon and personal immersion, other times grammar, like how some people will say "that's TRIBBLE" instead of "that sucks". I prefer canon obsessive or script obsessive depending.
On topic, I like the idea, it's really not much different from say an Englishwoman wearing everyone's favourite chinese dress the qipao, it at the very least makes sense to open it up as an option for non klingons, it's quite believable a player alien's species could have a similar style of clothing to Orions, and for a joined trill the reasons would be very much like an Englishwoman in a qipao. It's a bit harder to justify a klingon wearing it but still plausible since we can differentiate player klingons more than the tv ones.
Now we come onto the greathall and whether it's too raunchy for a military hq, I'm going to have to say no to that idea as the greathall's layout is itself silly, really we should have a complex and travel between multiple buildings as I would think that the greathall would really be for more ceremonial things or celebratory revelry than military things. Thus I question whether the greathall is a proper military location and not just somewhere with a small military add on. But as cryptic can't give us much we get this
compact place that serves all these functions at once. Also possible is it's the pomp and ceremony part of a mil base and the chancellor feels safe or something there instead of a govt building with the whole
Undine thing. But I think the greathalls status is sufficiently in question to make "it's too raunchy" a non
problem.
See all you need is some creativity and an open mind, pretty Trek in spirit if you ask me.
Imo this may well be easier to "explain" why it could be in than the open jacket uni of the vulcan and
alien.
Now I think about it a little, it's also pretty easy to justify Klingons wearing it, Mongols. Iirc they adopted some elements of conquered cultures they liked, even it didn't always or even often get back to Mongolia, some Mongols still did it.
That's not a Godwin, canon TRIBBLE is like grammarnazi it's not really comparing someone to the TRIBBLE [...]
I know what it's supposed to say - but if a comparison to TRIBBLE is not part of it, why include the term? As you said, it is to insult or ridicule the other person, so it specifically relies on the negativity that comes with the word and its meaning.
Whether you're calling someone a grammar TRIBBLE or claim that "he's as strict as a TRIBBLE when it comes to grammar" is the same thing - thus Godwin's Law applies to both.
Thus I question whether the greathall is a proper military location and not just somewhere with a small military add on.
So let me get this straight - you take a few negligible engine-based limitations as a reason to dispute the Great Hall's status, despite it clearly being labeled as such? And not even that, now it's supposed to be "somewhere" with a "small military add-on", despite clearly being in the midst of the capital city and containing the entire High Council?
See all you need is some creativity and an open mind, pretty Trek in spirit if you ask me.
Quite a paradox, to claim that it is Trek to take the feeling of the show out of the game. Also, creativity and grasping at straws just because you want to usurp Orion uniqueness are two different things.
All this talk just makes me think it was a mistake to give the Klingon faction the Alien CharGen in the first place, considering that all it does is serve as a disruption for the style we know from the shows. Be it because it is abused to play Romulans and Humans, or because now there's a drive to "steal" what makes Orion culture visually distinctive. :mad:
KDF got way too many species. Unfortunately it is far too late to roll back this mistake now.
I know what it's supposed to say - but if a comparison to TRIBBLE is not part of it, why include the term? As you said, it is to insult or ridicule the other person, so it specifically relies on the negativity that comes with the word and its meaning.
Whether you're calling someone a grammar TRIBBLE or claim that "he's as strict as a TRIBBLE when it comes to grammar" is the same thing - thus Godwin's Law applies to both.
Frankly I think Godwin's law is for political or social debates/arguments, Grammar-TRIBBLE is just an insult because TRIBBLE are bad and perceived as really strict from the Aryan thing and it's shorter and easier to say than obsessive. Like the Church of England bishops who called the General Synod fascist for allowing women bishops, or Obama being called a TRIBBLE for healthcare, that's a Godwin, they're trying to call the Synod and Obama evil like the TRIBBLE, who were evil because of their crimes, so their actions are being compared to TRIBBLE crimes, while you were just being called stuck up basically in a lazy manner and one that is admittedly abusive of history. Anyway let's leave the Godwin thing, I think it's overused others think it's applicable to any use of the word TRIBBLE.
So let me get this straight - you take a few negligible engine-based limitations as a reason to dispute the Great Hall's status, despite it clearly being labeled as such? And not even that, now it's supposed to be "somewhere" with a "small military add-on", despite clearly being in the midst of the capital city and containing the entire High Council?
Alright to explain better take the courtyard, if I were doing it you'd beam into the the courtyard and be able to walk into greathall or a barracks(boffs, ground gear) or a war ministry building for gettings ships and ship equipment, and something like feasting hall for promotion ceremonies and buying the "blackmarket" gear. If I were completely unlimited you'd be beaming around a city going to these places from transporter pads.
As Cryptic was limited in what they could do(probably more by time though than engine considering the cities in CO) the greathall must compact all those things into one so it's not exclusively military but also serves a political, ceremonial and relaxation functions. I know the show has Klingons being often one dimensional and at the best of the times two, but I doubt even Klingons would have the political heads of their Empire hanging around in a military base all the time. They would likely be in a something like a Klingon parliament building, but being Klingon there would be very heavy security which could take the form of the military "add on" in the greathall, so the greathall could actually be more politically oriented than military if it could be fully fleshed out. Sort of like it's a Parliament with a War Ministry and it's security force attached that's then also connected to feasting hall. I also certainly didn't mean it's just "somewhere" on Qo'nos but with my manner of wording things I can see how you viewed it like that, I meant that it's a place that isn't a mil base but some hybrid.
This is different from ESD which is a military base just with a diplomatic attachment and probably a scientific one too along with the leisure facilities for everyone to chill at.
Quite a paradox, to claim that it is Trek to take the feeling of the show out of the game. Also, creativity and grasping at straws just because you want to usurp Orion uniqueness are two different things.
That depends on if something feels Trek to a person because it obsessively sticks to what is on screen, or the sentiments of Trek about open mindedness, equality etc. For you Trek appears to be more about "was a Klingon ever seen on screen infatuated with elements of another culture", than my "is it possible a Klingon could become infatuated with elements of another culture?". You go for sticking to scripts where as I go for whether something can fit the sentiments,ideals, the spirit of Trek and if it's plausible in Trek.
You've frankly lost me on the grasping at straws, is it really that hard to conceive there are Klingons who are about more than "honour, blood, waaaaghhhh(warhammer 40k ref)", and maybe are fans of Orion or other races clothing, even if it's not warlike gear maybe even just because it's skimpyness is so different from normal klingon stuff. Take General Chang and Chancellor Gorkon, despite Chang being a warmonger he comes across as a warrior poet compared to later Klingons being Orks, and Gorkon was very civil. Maybe there are Klingons who view that past as the end of a golden age, have tired of continual fussing over "honour" and seek to be more cultured by adopting things from all over and maybe coming up with Klingon variations. Not saying Klingons shouldn't be honour bound warriors, but that honour bound warriors can be open minded and don't need so much brutality.
It's not me grasping at straws, but you running around trying to shut every door.
All this talk just makes me think it was a mistake to give the Klingon faction the Alien CharGen in the first place, considering that all it does is serve as a disruption for the style we know from the shows. Be it because it is abused to play Romulans and Humans, or because now there's a drive to "steal" what makes Orion culture visually distinctive. :mad:
KDF got way too many species. Unfortunately it is far too late to roll back this mistake now.
And here we come to what you likely really care about, probably not preserving Orion uniqueness but maintaining perceived KDF uniformity for your own personal "immersion". The thing is opening up the Orion outfits is no more theft of Orion culture than an Englishwoman wearing a qipao is stealing Chinese culture, she's wearing Chinese culture, when someone sees her in it, they know she's at least a fan of that small part of Chinese culture not that she's trying to usurp it.
So then if an Englishwoman wants to wear a qipao is she trying to steal Chinese culture?
Hmmm I've got a great idea for a few foundry episodes now, thanks!
They would likely be in a something like a Klingon parliament building, but being Klingon there would be very heavy security which could take the form of the military "add on" in the greathall, so the greathall could actually be more politically oriented than military if it could be fully fleshed out. Sort of like it's a Parliament with a War Ministry and it's security force attached that's then also connected to feasting hall.
That's exactly how I saw the Great Hall in the game, actually.
For you Trek appears to be more about "was a Klingon ever seen on screen infatuated with elements of another culture", than my "is it possible a Klingon could become infatuated with elements of another culture?". You go for sticking to scripts where as I go for whether something can fit the sentiments,ideals, the spirit of Trek and if it's plausible in Trek.
Thing is that it will no longer look like Trek if "what is plausible" (which is in the eye of the beholder) becomes the norm, as it will be if you open the possibilities, even if it's just because a large part of the playerbase wants maximum pixel eroticism. Just look at what happened to ESD with all those high-heeled, miniskirt, belly-top wearing go-go girls. Does that look like Starfleet? Do you really want Qo'noS to look alike? Is it wrong that there is at least one faction in the game that somewhat looks like an accurate representation of its culture(s) from the shows?
For the Orions their current look fits well because that is their culture, and that is what makes them memorable and unique. If you take the clothing away, all we're left with visually would be green-skinned Humans.
[...] just because it's skimpyness is so different from normal klingon stuff.
Klingons already have skimpy stuff in canon. It just looks different. Why does every species have to wear the same stuff? This is contradictory to the very same diversity you seem to think you champion.
And yes, smooth silks do go against Klingon culture, especially considering that they make their wearer look like a toy'wI'a. Not everyone in Klingon society is a warrior, but to think that someone would voluntarily don this kind of garment because she likes it is comparable to walking around in a fetish harness in your hometown.
I just think customization should represent the standard range of clothing for the respective character, not cater to extreme exceptions. Because otherwise the exceptions will become the rule. And this would look bull. Again, see ESD.
And here we come to what you likely really care about, probably not preserving Orion uniqueness but maintaining perceived KDF uniformity for your own personal "immersion".
Both, actually. I am of the opinion that every species has the right to retain its unique defining features. Partly because it's what makes them special, partly because that is what makes people play them, and partly because this is simply how it was done in the shows.
The thing is opening up the Orion outfits is no more theft of Orion culture than an Englishwoman wearing a qipao is stealing Chinese culture, she's wearing Chinese culture, when someone sees her in it, they know she's at least a fan of that small part of Chinese culture not that she's trying to usurp it.
Actually, that line was referring to the player, not the character. They want bikinis because they dislike their own species' range of clothing and because they want to show off more skin, not because their characters have any reason to wear them. The most such players do it come up with some half-cooked excuse for such deviant behavior, naturally without thinking about the consequences this would really have for the character.
That's exactly how I saw the Great Hall in the game, actually.
Thing is that it will no longer look like Trek if "what is plausible" (which is in the eye of the beholder) becomes the norm, as it will be if you open the possibilities, even if it's just because a large part of the playerbase wants maximum pixel eroticism. Just look at what happened to ESD with all those high-heeled, miniskirt, belly-top wearing go-go girls. Does that look like Starfleet? Do you really want Qo'noS to look alike? Is it wrong that there is at least one faction in the game that somewhat looks like an accurate representation of its culture(s) from the shows?
ESD looks wacky (which doesn't really bother me but not everyone's as good at just ignoring things as me, a talent I was forced to develop after raging at silly things in films) because there is quite a high player:npc ratio, whereas there are very few in comparison on Qo'nos, so even if everyone played a bikini clad female it wouldn't be half as noticeable as ESDs costume antics.
For the Orions their current look fits well because that is their culture, and that is what makes them memorable and unique. If you take the clothing away, all we're left with visually would be green-skinned Humans.
It's definitely a big part of Orions but I don't think the uniqueness matters, in game Vulcans sole difference from humans is pointy ears as the "logical" can only be expressed through RP(for players), they'd still be Orions, the clothing would still be theirs, just others would have adopted it, for instance it'd very likely be called "Orion TRIBBLE" in the character editor(if it weren't I'd campagin), and I'm thinking most will recognise it as Orion clothing and not a generic Leia bikini.
Klingons already have skimpy stuff in canon. It just looks different. Why does every species have to wear the same stuff? This is contradictory to the very same diversity you seem to think you champion.
Every species won't have to wear the same stuff, they can just wear it if they want to, that difference is crucial, admittedly I would be surprised if we didn't see at least 30% females wearing it. More a champion of options but also openness, and more options is inherently more diverse than less. If everyone did flock to the bikini, well I'm that's my efforts for more options sucessful, even with a minor problem on the diversity front.
And yes, smooth silks do go against Klingon culture, especially considering that they make their wearer look like a toy'wI'a. Not everyone in Klingon society is a warrior, but to think that someone would voluntarily don this kind of garment because she likes it is comparable to walking around in a fetish harness in your hometown.
More like walking around in foreign swimwear, to the more "waaaghhh honour" klingons it's still contemptible, but probably regarded as self indultgent to decadent instead of perverted. I feel it's quite believable that there's a few klingons(in proportion to the size of the KDF, there could still be a lot of them in number if not percentage) who diverge from the norm and indulge in foreign things, but by proving themselves to still be honourable warriors despite this, they are tolerated and shown respect for their skill if perhaps not much liked.
I just think customization should represent the standard range of clothing for the respective character, not cater to extreme exceptions. Because otherwise the exceptions will become the rule. And this would look bull. Again, see ESD.
Thing is you can't really define the standard range of clothing for the respective character, you can do it for their culture or their species, but a person is not a culture or a species, attempting to pin down characters in such a manner would be almost stereotypical.
A klingon could be one the most honourable and skilled warriors in the empire but in her time not spent pwning feds with a batleth she prances about in Qipaos and Orion clothing, listening to old Vulcan music, the off duty explanation. Alternatively or additonally because she's such a badarse and it's not like klingon gear stops a phaser blast she wears a Qipao/Orion bikini into combat, her superiors might be a bit peeved but there's a war on and other than that she's an exemplary klingon so they leave it be.
Okay so most won't come up with a backstory for why, but most people never even come up with any backstory to a character or at least a visible one.
Both, actually. I am of the opinion that every species has the right to retain its unique defining features. Partly because it's what makes them special, partly because that is what makes people play them, and partly because this is simply how it was done in the shows.
Plenty of people still play the canon fed races even if an alien is a better min-max and there are no fancy unique outfits, I like the shows (ofc) but one of my big problems with them was this pigeonholing of alien races, yes it's much easier to get lots of aliens in if you make them simple and not complex but it reduces them to caricatures, that must then be stuck to or the wrath of canon defenders be invoked. Granted with STs races being people with bits stuck on they wouldn't be all the special anymore but it's not like everyone else is.
Actually, that line was referring to the player, not the character. They want bikinis because they dislike their own species' range of clothing and because they want to show off more skin, not because their characters have any reason to wear them. The most such players do it come up with some half-cooked excuse for such deviant behavior, naturally without thinking about the consequences this would really have for the character.
"It's hawt!" is likely a big part of the motivation for many who want this, but there's not really a problem with that imo. Now when we come to in world consequences for the character it honestly might not amount to much, the very fact we've got a bunch of species on Qo'nos could show that the klingons former friendship with the federation has mellowed them a bit when it comes to this kind of thing.
Like is it the motions of a ritual that matter to STO Klingons or the intent of a ritual? That someone dresses like their trying to be an honourable warrior or that they actually are one?
And it is after all the NPCs who represent the normal Klingons, our characters are the "special" ones like in most games, we're the Picards, Kirks, Worfs not the one episode appearance captains. We're allowed to be quirky or...strange.
And now I have an urge to make a thread asking for a Qipao to be added to the formal wear set, it kinda sorta looks like one but not enough.
It's definitely a big part of Orions but I don't think the uniqueness matters, in game Vulcans sole difference from humans is pointy ears as the "logical" can only be expressed through RP(for players), they'd still be Orions, the clothing would still be theirs, just others would have adopted it, for instance it'd very likely be called "Orion TRIBBLE" in the character editor(if it weren't I'd campagin)
It's not the same, actually. Starfleet Vulcans are part of Starfleet, of course they wear the same clothing. Non-Starfleet Vulcans (which we do not have in STO) would actually wear different stuff, as you can see in several ENT, TOS and TNG episodes.
If everyone did flock to the bikini, well I'm that's my efforts for more options sucessful, even with a minor problem on the diversity front.
And on the Trek front, for we would loose the atmosphere Qo'noS managed to retain so far. Again: Is it really necessary to copy the whacky look of Starfleet? Can't we have one faction that looks like it did in the shows?
More like walking around in foreign swimwear, to the more "waaaghhh honour" klingons it's still contemptible, but probably regarded as self indultgent to decadent instead of perverted.
No. If you dress like a slave then you will be treated like a slave. If you do it voluntarily, something's wrong with your sense of honor. It's as simple as that. Don't you think this would have repercussions on how other Klingons deal with you?
And just having "some" backstory doesn't make it more believable. You just can't justify everything, and sometimes trying to do so is actually more facepalm-worthy than just rolling without any excuse at all.
Thing is you can't really define the standard range of clothing for the respective character, you can do it for their culture or their species, but a person is not a culture or a species, attempting to pin down characters in such a manner would be almost stereotypical.
Which I think is necessary. Look, there's only one of two ways here:
A) achieve total freedom in customization preserve the style of the faction and the atmosphere of the game
You can only go one way. They are not compatible. Almost every player doesn't care about making his or her character fit into the setting, instead going by what he or she thinks is cool or sexy based on their respective preference as a 21st century Human. This game is not about 21st century Humans, and if you let people dress however they want you're sacrificing the atmosphere of the show. You're going to loose the "Trek". Might as well play Second Life or whatever.
Now when we come to in world consequences for the character it honestly might not amount to much, the very fact we've got a bunch of species on Qo'nos could show that the klingons former friendship with the federation has mellowed them a bit when it comes to this kind of thing.
Maybe you should take a look at STO's faction page.
Like is it the motions of a ritual that matter to STO Klingons or the intent of a ritual? That someone dresses like their trying to be an honourable warrior or that they actually are one?
Both, in a way. Everyone expects the motions, the intent on the other hand matters to the ones that believe in tradition and honour.
And it is after all the NPCs who represent the normal Klingons, our characters are the "special" ones like in most games, we're the Picards, Kirks, Worfs not the one episode appearance captains. We're allowed to be quirky or...strange.
Heh. I see this kind or justification pop up every single time when such a topic is discussed. And I don't buy it. Sure, I can see why some people absolutely want to play the special snowflake and the Mary Sue that can achieve everything and is so awesome the whole galaxy loves him/her, but in the end this is an MMO, and other player characters need to be taken into consideration as well.
"If everyone is special, nobody is."
I'm quite happy with my - so I believe - interesting and believable characters without the need to make them stand out of the crowd. You can be unique without being a Picard, a Kirk or a Worf. Every person has his own story, his own struggle. You don't need to have the entire galaxy know of it to make it exciting.
It's not the same, actually. Starfleet Vulcans are part of Starfleet, of course they wear the same clothing. Non-Starfleet Vulcans (which we do not have in STO) would actually wear different stuff, as you can see in several ENT, TOS and TNG episodes.
The Orions are in the KDF though, we can say they're allied and really not in it, but I think it's stretching. Do the Vulcans have unique off duty clothes? Can't really find anything on it and used my char slots, if they don't then that's another thing.
Since for however many months only the Orions have been able to wear it, I'm certain all but new players will, call it Orion in the editor even they will.
More like 60%. Again, see ESD how people dress up their females.
I rarely ever see much more than two dozen people on Qo'nos, maybe half are females, even with a bit over half of them wearing the bikini that isn't changing much, and frankly I very much doubt there'd be a rush to play KDF because they all get bikinis, and even now all Orion females don't wear bikinis, most maybe but not all.
And on the Trek front, for we would loose the atmosphere Qo'noS managed to retain so far. Again: Is it really necessary to copy the whacky look of Starfleet? Can't we have one faction that looks like it did in the shows?
No you would lose the atmosphere, the greathall still looks Klingons, there's still going to be lots of Klingon NPCs, klingon music. In a quick beam down early hours to Qo'nos I saw 6 aliens, 5 klingon(2 lib borg), 2 joined trill(with mine 3), 5 orions(2 of them not even wearing a single bit of bikini), 2 Leatheans and a Nausicaan.
Now later in the day I would expect to see more orions and aliens proportionally, but even when I've flown through space infoing every captain Klingons are still around a quarter of the numbers, sometimes Orions have been half of what I see, but so have Klingons. The Empire is hardly overrun by dirty furriners.
The Empire of the shows is also not the Empire of this game, a long time has passed.
No. If you dress like a slave then you will be treated like a slave. If you do it voluntarily, something's wrong with your sense of honor. It's as simple as that. Don't you think this would have repercussions on how other Klingons deal with you?
Did you watch ENT? The STO female Orions seem to be much more like the ones who tried to take over the Enterprise there, than actual slave girls. Probably some Orion females are actual slaves and not spies/saboteurs, but the issue is left muddied from ENT. Having seen female Orions in STO ordering around male NPCs I'm going with ENTs interpretation of them being true in STO.
Now if a Klingon thinks there is something wrong with the character's sense of honour, then they should stop being a coward, say so and accept the consequences, there'll be repercussions alright...for them. See it's not hard to think through this kind of thing if you're at least willing to try.
And just having "some" backstory doesn't make it more believable. You just can't justify everything, and sometimes trying to do so is actually more facepalm-worthy than just rolling without any excuse at all.
I can't justify absolutely everything there is, but I can justify this, just never to you for no matter what is said you aren't going to change your opinion on it unless a new Trek series was released and we saw a klingon in a bikini(Orion/Earth w/e) or fine silk dress.
Which I think is necessary. Look, there's only one of two ways here:
A) achieve total freedom in customization preserve the style of the faction and the atmosphere of the game
C) You learn to tolerate and ignore things like most other people manage when they come across something that bugs them? If I can deal with the silly characters made in Aion, that terrible "The Core" film, and 3 foot tall aliens here so can you.
D) Start up that old campaign to get choose what other peoples uniforms appear as.
E) Campaign to get "roleplay" instances added that you have to tick a box in options to visit and where everyone at least wears the STO uniforms and Klingon battlegear, might be possible might not.
You can only go one way. They are not compatible. Almost every player doesn't care about making his or her character fit into the setting, instead going by what he or she thinks is cool or sexy based on their respective preference as a 21st century Human. This game is not about 21st century Humans, and if you let people dress however they want you're sacrificing the atmosphere of the show. You're going to loose the "Trek". Might as well play Second Life or whatever.
More like some don't care about fitting the setting, and some don't care about fitting your vision of the setting and why should they? Also seriously "by what he or she thinks is cool or sexy based on their respective preference as a 21st century Human", are they supposed to go by their preference as an imaginative 25th century human? All ST springs from the minds of 20th and 21st century humans, that kind of demand on people is a bit much don't you think.
Second Life might actually be a good fit for you if want "immersion" and "atmosphere" with it's Trek roleplayers. Because here you'll never really have the atmosphere of the show, such rigidity just isn't for most people.
Well you could also get a group that roleplays on each other's bridges with properly dressed boffs, a dose of atmosphere for you, a dose of fun harmless fun for everyone else.
Maybe you should take a look at STO's faction page.
Which bit, the bit where the Klingon talks about allies? That goes against me how? Oh no the Klingons are in charge of the alliance and conquered the Gorn, so xenophobic! Clearly my argument is disproved... or not. If the Orions/Letheans/Nausicaans attempted to withdraw from the alliance, they'd probably get attacked but that's not uncommon in Earth wars so doesn't prove anything.
Both, in a way. Everyone expects the motions, the intent on the other hand matters to the ones that believe in tradition and honour.
Right and the ones to whom intent matters most, won't really be too bothered by what you wear or if you TRIBBLE up a ritual a little, the others you can have a backstory of having sucessfully challenged warding off others from trying to disparage you for trivialities. Or perhaps in the 20 or so years the Klingons were allied with Feds, and 15 or so Klingons with Orions like I said before, a countercultural movement has sprung up, and perhaps someone who's risen to a powerful position in a notable greathouse is in this movement.
Heh. I see this kind or justification pop up every single time when such a topic is discussed. And I don't buy it. Sure, I can see why some people absolutely want to play the special snowflake and the Mary Sue that can achieve everything and is so awesome the whole galaxy loves him/her, but in the end this is an MMO, and other player characters need to be taken into consideration as well.
"If everyone is special, nobody is."
I'm quite happy with my - so I believe - interesting and believable characters without the need to make them stand out of the crowd. You can be unique without being a Picard, a Kirk or a Worf. Every person has his own story, his own struggle. You don't need to have the entire galaxy know of it to make it exciting.
Actually as an MMO pretty much everyone is a Mary Sue, it tends to take either BIG raids or mass world pvp to avoid that and even then. How many ships have you destroyed? People killed?
Loads of video game characters are thus "Mary Sues" a term I feel is even more overused than Godwin's Law. In the Halo series Master Chief is pretty much the saviour of humanity and the galaxy, the covenant split was required to win but he did save all life in the Galaxy more than once. People like being amazing heroes, that's fine if you prefer being like Captain Tryla Scott, but I'm betting most people want to be like Picard.
I actually don't think wearing funny outfits would make a character a Mary Sue, having determind that no not everyone loves for them and they probably have to go that extra mile to prove themselves, rather than everything falling easily into their laps.
Oh well that's non single player games for you, not much of a big deal and with STO's instancing it's much less of a problem than in other games, I won't ever see you stopping the Devidians and you won't see me doing it, unlike some quest chain in WoW that doesn't end in a dungeon run.
Player character ones? I don't think so. But they do exist for NPCs. If you want to have them as unique off duty costumes, I suppose a thread in the C-Store forum would be appropriate. It'd be justified, anyways.
Since for however many months only the Orions have been able to wear it, I'm certain all but new players will, call it Orion in the editor even they will.
Just because something is named a certain way won't change people's perception of it.
No you would lose the atmosphere, the greathall still looks Klingons, there's still going to be lots of Klingon NPCs, klingon music.
Yeah sure, just like ESD looks like Starfleet? Oh, wait, it doesn't. Player characters are an integral part of the world, and if you have all of them run around in bikinis then it simply changes how the world looks like.
In any case, yes, I would lose the atmosphere. That said, given that this is a Star Trek game, I am now left to wonder what other atmosphere there could be?
Did you watch ENT? The STO female Orions seem to be much more like the ones who tried to take over the Enterprise there, than actual slave girls. Probably some Orion females are actual slaves and not spies/saboteurs, but the issue is left muddied from ENT. Having seen female Orions in STO ordering around male NPCs I'm going with ENTs interpretation of them being true in STO.
You misunderstood. We are not talking about Orions here. We are talking about how -Klingons- (or other species) would be treated if they dress like slaves.
One of my characters is an Orion as well and am using the exact same interpretation of background: http://www.startrekonline.com/character_profiles/1181978/view
In fact, I've got her as a player character and my Klingon's BO simultaneously, effectively leading a double life.
Now if a Klingon thinks there is something wrong with the character's sense of honour, then they should stop being a coward, say so and accept the consequences, there'll be repercussions alright...for them. See it's not hard to think through this kind of thing if you're at least willing to try.
It's not very "professional" to take the NPCs ignorance as acceptance just because they are not scripted to react based on what a player wears. That's the same kind of flawed logic that supposedly led many WoW players to believe it's perfectly okay to run around in the midst of Stormwind or Darnassus with freshly summoned demons despite this being outlawed.
I can't justify absolutely everything there is, but I can justify this, just never to you for no matter what is said you aren't going to change your opinion on it unless a new Trek series was released and we saw a klingon in a bikini(Orion/Earth w/e) or fine silk dress.
Yes. Sorry that I am basing my arguments on what we know about a culture.
C) You learn to tolerate and ignore things like most other people manage when they come across something that bugs them? If I can deal with the silly characters made in Aion, that terrible "The Core" film, and 3 foot tall aliens here so can you.
D) Start up that old campaign to get choose what other peoples uniforms appear as.
E) Campaign to get "roleplay" instances added that you have to tick a box in options to visit and where everyone at least wears the STO uniforms and Klingon battlegear, might be possible might not.
Since "C" is the same as "A" and "D" and "E" are not going to happen (though I did in fact campaign for "D" just yesterday) I don't see how those are supposed to be options.
are they supposed to go by their preference as an imaginative 25th century human?
As roleplayers? Yes, that's the entire idea of "playing a role", no? Of course I can understand that people won't give a s**t when they do not care about the setting anyways, but hey, you started to argue that it would in fact make sense in-universe.
Right and the ones to whom intent matters most, won't really be too bothered by what you wear [...]
What kind of logic is that? Those are the ones who will be pis*ed the most because you clearly do not even have the intent to wear something appropriate.
I actually don't think wearing funny outfits would make a character a Mary Sue
If the normal rules of the setting do not apply for them? Sounds pretty Mary Sue for me.
I see we won't be getting nowhere with this debate, though. Our "perception" of the setting clearly varies too much, and likewise our opinion regarding the atmosphere of the game. I simply believe in unique differences, be it between factions or species, whilst you are apparently okay with everybody being the same. That's a fundamental conflict we won't be able to bridge regardless of how long we continue to argue, so we may as well stop at this point.
I see we won't be getting nowhere with this debate, though. Our "perception" of the setting clearly varies too much, and likewise our opinion regarding the atmosphere of the game. I simply believe in unique differences, be it between factions or species, whilst you are apparently okay with everybody being the same. That's a fundamental conflict we won't be able to bridge regardless of how long we continue to argue, so we may as well stop at this point.
Until I got to this bit I was going to go through your post point by point but I agree that we'll never come to a conclusion either of us will agree on and since this is now pretty much a two person thread continuing would be unlikely to sway devs either way. If this issue pops up again though I expect we'll probably both be back at it.
I believe in differences between societies just not ones that are immutable and clothes aren't something I view as unique in the same manner as you, to go into detail on my views would take too long so I'm not going to bother.
I'm okay with everyone having the same options to me that's fairness, and I can't bring myself to ever not go against something that seems unfair, not that I'm fine with everyone being the same though if it ends up like that because of personal choice I can't say I'd be bothered by it.
Comments
http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Valkris
http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Valkris
Big difference between a dress like Jadzia's wedding gown and a loincloth. Aside from the fact that Valkris was a covert operative and not a warrior of the Defense Force.
http://treager-sama.deviantart.com/art/Warrior-Wench-192246334
I can dig it.
^You'll know which commenter I am from that, I assure you.
very nice actually. I prefer those than the orion outfits. lol
Well, a little more wench than warrior, imo.
This still looks a little more serious even whilst showing off cleavage.
I should try my hands at a Klingon skirt, too, just for the heck of it...
Actually, that could very well be the reason.
I'd imagine in a culture like the Klingons have, a healthy individual would be more desirable than a scrawny, malnourished weakling.
Now, a male can show off his strength and power rather well even with full armor. But a female with a healthy, well-fed and properly filled-out body?
Well, she can easily prove she is strong even in full plate. But how can she show that she has a healthy shape? She'd have a very difficult time proving that in layer upon layer of armor. But a diamond cut right at the cleavage would be an ideal solution, assuming the Klingon heart isn't placed similarly to a human's. And even then, a warrior worth her salt wouldn't let a foe get close enough for a stabbing thrust right on target anyway. The rest of the body is fully, or at least mostly, covered in armor, so the danger to her is only marginally greater than it would be on a male.
Those whose strength would otherwise be sufficient, but they're naturally small-breasted, or flat-chested? They would naturally wear something to compensate, to make them look bigger than they actually were.
At least it seems logical to me. I'm not exactly well-versed in Klingon lore.
"Klingons evolved battle-ready bodies on a harsh planet. The ferocity of their circumstances molded their minds, making aggression a virtue, candor a must, and utility the only criteria by which to measure value."
- Blood and Honor, Klingon Empire P&P sourcebook
If you extend the idea of "utility" on the female form, then you could argue that big TRIBBLE are an obvious indicator of readiness for maternity, so any female Klingon seeking to mate (or even just to be accepted as an equal/adult) would try to emphasize them. This would still hold true even if this is only anchored in their minds subconsciously. Basically, it's the same with Humans, just that Klingons are even more obvious about advertising this.
That is why transparent aluminum was invented, all the protection and all the optics in one.
You... Are my hero for the day!
I do not like the idea of every female in the KDF suddenly sporting Orion bikinis. I do however feel that Klingons in general should have more options for clothing, especially for the custom aliens. Off duty uniforms, while I do not recall them in canon, and formal wear would be nice options for KDF players to enjoy as they will. No matter what though I cannot shake the feeling that aside from the default KDF armor custom aliens should get a few other options. Oh and the KDF armor is due for an update. It is the 24th century after all. One of these would be nice as well for those who like the TOS style KDF.
Ironically the lack in options still makes the KDF feel way more "uniform" than Starfleet. Not that this would be a bad thing - at least that's one faction that still resembles its original from the shows.
Hmm, I recall Worf's and Dax's wedding gowns, or the clothes worn by Kor, Koloth and Kang, or the fur jacket from the Klingon Ambassador. There've been a few good examples - though I do think that combat uniforms (of which the KDF could still use a couple more canon ones!) should take precedence.
That said, according to the recent "Ask Cryptic", they do plan on removing the difference between Duty and Off Duty altogether, which is a good thing and should have never been in the game in the first place.
More options are better, the cannon TRIBBLE can always dress up how they want anyways, and if seeing an orion wearing klingon or naussican clothing makes them go into a wheezing cannon seizure then maybe it's time to engage real life at maximum warp for a few months.
But thanks for your participation. :rolleyes:
Way to go triggering Godwin's Law! Congrats, you sure made your point with that one.
If all you think about is the maximum display of skin, then maybe it's time for you to go watch a TRIBBLE movie instead of turning this game into one. Y'know, just in case you've misunderstood what this game is actually about.
PS: I'll give you a hint. It begins with "Star". Oh, and as for your typo, see my signature.
I can answer that.
Nausicaan gear is not KDF standard equipment. That's why.
Your Orion does in fact have access to all standard KDF clothing and armor. In fact, for ages, that's all they had.
Now they have race-specific armor and clothing. Your Orion is not a Nausicaan. It cannot and will not wear Nausicaan clothes.
Sorry. I think an Orion babe would be hot in a Nausicaan half-plate and bikini, too, but it just won't happen, with any luck.
That's not a Godwin, canon TRIBBLE is like grammarnazi it's not really comparing someone to the TRIBBLE but essentially a different way of calling someone excessively strict while also insulting them, in this case with regards to sticking to canon and personal immersion, other times grammar, like how some people will say "that's TRIBBLE" instead of "that sucks". I prefer canon obsessive or script obsessive depending.
On topic, I like the idea, it's really not much different from say an Englishwoman wearing everyone's favourite chinese dress the qipao, it at the very least makes sense to open it up as an option for non klingons, it's quite believable a player alien's species could have a similar style of clothing to Orions, and for a joined trill the reasons would be very much like an Englishwoman in a qipao. It's a bit harder to justify a klingon wearing it but still plausible since we can differentiate player klingons more than the tv ones.
Now we come onto the greathall and whether it's too raunchy for a military hq, I'm going to have to say no to that idea as the greathall's layout is itself silly, really we should have a complex and travel between multiple buildings as I would think that the greathall would really be for more ceremonial things or celebratory revelry than military things. Thus I question whether the greathall is a proper military location and not just somewhere with a small military add on. But as cryptic can't give us much we get this
compact place that serves all these functions at once. Also possible is it's the pomp and ceremony part of a mil base and the chancellor feels safe or something there instead of a govt building with the whole
Undine thing. But I think the greathalls status is sufficiently in question to make "it's too raunchy" a non
problem.
See all you need is some creativity and an open mind, pretty Trek in spirit if you ask me.
Imo this may well be easier to "explain" why it could be in than the open jacket uni of the vulcan and
alien.
Now I think about it a little, it's also pretty easy to justify Klingons wearing it, Mongols. Iirc they adopted some elements of conquered cultures they liked, even it didn't always or even often get back to Mongolia, some Mongols still did it.
Whether you're calling someone a grammar TRIBBLE or claim that "he's as strict as a TRIBBLE when it comes to grammar" is the same thing - thus Godwin's Law applies to both.
So let me get this straight - you take a few negligible engine-based limitations as a reason to dispute the Great Hall's status, despite it clearly being labeled as such? And not even that, now it's supposed to be "somewhere" with a "small military add-on", despite clearly being in the midst of the capital city and containing the entire High Council?
Quite a paradox, to claim that it is Trek to take the feeling of the show out of the game. Also, creativity and grasping at straws just because you want to usurp Orion uniqueness are two different things.
All this talk just makes me think it was a mistake to give the Klingon faction the Alien CharGen in the first place, considering that all it does is serve as a disruption for the style we know from the shows. Be it because it is abused to play Romulans and Humans, or because now there's a drive to "steal" what makes Orion culture visually distinctive. :mad:
KDF got way too many species. Unfortunately it is far too late to roll back this mistake now.
Frankly I think Godwin's law is for political or social debates/arguments, Grammar-TRIBBLE is just an insult because TRIBBLE are bad and perceived as really strict from the Aryan thing and it's shorter and easier to say than obsessive. Like the Church of England bishops who called the General Synod fascist for allowing women bishops, or Obama being called a TRIBBLE for healthcare, that's a Godwin, they're trying to call the Synod and Obama evil like the TRIBBLE, who were evil because of their crimes, so their actions are being compared to TRIBBLE crimes, while you were just being called stuck up basically in a lazy manner and one that is admittedly abusive of history. Anyway let's leave the Godwin thing, I think it's overused others think it's applicable to any use of the word TRIBBLE.
Alright to explain better take the courtyard, if I were doing it you'd beam into the the courtyard and be able to walk into greathall or a barracks(boffs, ground gear) or a war ministry building for gettings ships and ship equipment, and something like feasting hall for promotion ceremonies and buying the "blackmarket" gear. If I were completely unlimited you'd be beaming around a city going to these places from transporter pads.
As Cryptic was limited in what they could do(probably more by time though than engine considering the cities in CO) the greathall must compact all those things into one so it's not exclusively military but also serves a political, ceremonial and relaxation functions. I know the show has Klingons being often one dimensional and at the best of the times two, but I doubt even Klingons would have the political heads of their Empire hanging around in a military base all the time. They would likely be in a something like a Klingon parliament building, but being Klingon there would be very heavy security which could take the form of the military "add on" in the greathall, so the greathall could actually be more politically oriented than military if it could be fully fleshed out. Sort of like it's a Parliament with a War Ministry and it's security force attached that's then also connected to feasting hall. I also certainly didn't mean it's just "somewhere" on Qo'nos but with my manner of wording things I can see how you viewed it like that, I meant that it's a place that isn't a mil base but some hybrid.
This is different from ESD which is a military base just with a diplomatic attachment and probably a scientific one too along with the leisure facilities for everyone to chill at.
That depends on if something feels Trek to a person because it obsessively sticks to what is on screen, or the sentiments of Trek about open mindedness, equality etc. For you Trek appears to be more about "was a Klingon ever seen on screen infatuated with elements of another culture", than my "is it possible a Klingon could become infatuated with elements of another culture?". You go for sticking to scripts where as I go for whether something can fit the sentiments,ideals, the spirit of Trek and if it's plausible in Trek.
You've frankly lost me on the grasping at straws, is it really that hard to conceive there are Klingons who are about more than "honour, blood, waaaaghhhh(warhammer 40k ref)", and maybe are fans of Orion or other races clothing, even if it's not warlike gear maybe even just because it's skimpyness is so different from normal klingon stuff. Take General Chang and Chancellor Gorkon, despite Chang being a warmonger he comes across as a warrior poet compared to later Klingons being Orks, and Gorkon was very civil. Maybe there are Klingons who view that past as the end of a golden age, have tired of continual fussing over "honour" and seek to be more cultured by adopting things from all over and maybe coming up with Klingon variations. Not saying Klingons shouldn't be honour bound warriors, but that honour bound warriors can be open minded and don't need so much brutality.
It's not me grasping at straws, but you running around trying to shut every door.
And here we come to what you likely really care about, probably not preserving Orion uniqueness but maintaining perceived KDF uniformity for your own personal "immersion". The thing is opening up the Orion outfits is no more theft of Orion culture than an Englishwoman wearing a qipao is stealing Chinese culture, she's wearing Chinese culture, when someone sees her in it, they know she's at least a fan of that small part of Chinese culture not that she's trying to usurp it.
So then if an Englishwoman wants to wear a qipao is she trying to steal Chinese culture?
Hmmm I've got a great idea for a few foundry episodes now, thanks!
Thing is that it will no longer look like Trek if "what is plausible" (which is in the eye of the beholder) becomes the norm, as it will be if you open the possibilities, even if it's just because a large part of the playerbase wants maximum pixel eroticism. Just look at what happened to ESD with all those high-heeled, miniskirt, belly-top wearing go-go girls. Does that look like Starfleet? Do you really want Qo'noS to look alike? Is it wrong that there is at least one faction in the game that somewhat looks like an accurate representation of its culture(s) from the shows?
For the Orions their current look fits well because that is their culture, and that is what makes them memorable and unique. If you take the clothing away, all we're left with visually would be green-skinned Humans.
Klingons already have skimpy stuff in canon. It just looks different. Why does every species have to wear the same stuff? This is contradictory to the very same diversity you seem to think you champion.
And yes, smooth silks do go against Klingon culture, especially considering that they make their wearer look like a toy'wI'a. Not everyone in Klingon society is a warrior, but to think that someone would voluntarily don this kind of garment because she likes it is comparable to walking around in a fetish harness in your hometown.
I just think customization should represent the standard range of clothing for the respective character, not cater to extreme exceptions. Because otherwise the exceptions will become the rule. And this would look bull. Again, see ESD.
Both, actually. I am of the opinion that every species has the right to retain its unique defining features. Partly because it's what makes them special, partly because that is what makes people play them, and partly because this is simply how it was done in the shows.
Actually, that line was referring to the player, not the character. They want bikinis because they dislike their own species' range of clothing and because they want to show off more skin, not because their characters have any reason to wear them. The most such players do it come up with some half-cooked excuse for such deviant behavior, naturally without thinking about the consequences this would really have for the character.
ESD looks wacky (which doesn't really bother me but not everyone's as good at just ignoring things as me, a talent I was forced to develop after raging at silly things in films) because there is quite a high player:npc ratio, whereas there are very few in comparison on Qo'nos, so even if everyone played a bikini clad female it wouldn't be half as noticeable as ESDs costume antics.
It's definitely a big part of Orions but I don't think the uniqueness matters, in game Vulcans sole difference from humans is pointy ears as the "logical" can only be expressed through RP(for players), they'd still be Orions, the clothing would still be theirs, just others would have adopted it, for instance it'd very likely be called "Orion TRIBBLE" in the character editor(if it weren't I'd campagin), and I'm thinking most will recognise it as Orion clothing and not a generic Leia bikini.
Every species won't have to wear the same stuff, they can just wear it if they want to, that difference is crucial, admittedly I would be surprised if we didn't see at least 30% females wearing it. More a champion of options but also openness, and more options is inherently more diverse than less. If everyone did flock to the bikini, well I'm that's my efforts for more options sucessful, even with a minor problem on the diversity front.
More like walking around in foreign swimwear, to the more "waaaghhh honour" klingons it's still contemptible, but probably regarded as self indultgent to decadent instead of perverted. I feel it's quite believable that there's a few klingons(in proportion to the size of the KDF, there could still be a lot of them in number if not percentage) who diverge from the norm and indulge in foreign things, but by proving themselves to still be honourable warriors despite this, they are tolerated and shown respect for their skill if perhaps not much liked.
Thing is you can't really define the standard range of clothing for the respective character, you can do it for their culture or their species, but a person is not a culture or a species, attempting to pin down characters in such a manner would be almost stereotypical.
A klingon could be one the most honourable and skilled warriors in the empire but in her time not spent pwning feds with a batleth she prances about in Qipaos and Orion clothing, listening to old Vulcan music, the off duty explanation. Alternatively or additonally because she's such a badarse and it's not like klingon gear stops a phaser blast she wears a Qipao/Orion bikini into combat, her superiors might be a bit peeved but there's a war on and other than that she's an exemplary klingon so they leave it be.
Okay so most won't come up with a backstory for why, but most people never even come up with any backstory to a character or at least a visible one.
Plenty of people still play the canon fed races even if an alien is a better min-max and there are no fancy unique outfits, I like the shows (ofc) but one of my big problems with them was this pigeonholing of alien races, yes it's much easier to get lots of aliens in if you make them simple and not complex but it reduces them to caricatures, that must then be stuck to or the wrath of canon defenders be invoked. Granted with STs races being people with bits stuck on they wouldn't be all the special anymore but it's not like everyone else is.
"It's hawt!" is likely a big part of the motivation for many who want this, but there's not really a problem with that imo. Now when we come to in world consequences for the character it honestly might not amount to much, the very fact we've got a bunch of species on Qo'nos could show that the klingons former friendship with the federation has mellowed them a bit when it comes to this kind of thing.
Like is it the motions of a ritual that matter to STO Klingons or the intent of a ritual? That someone dresses like their trying to be an honourable warrior or that they actually are one?
And it is after all the NPCs who represent the normal Klingons, our characters are the "special" ones like in most games, we're the Picards, Kirks, Worfs not the one episode appearance captains. We're allowed to be quirky or...strange.
And now I have an urge to make a thread asking for a Qipao to be added to the formal wear set, it kinda sorta looks like one but not enough.
Really now? I doubt that.
More like 60%. Again, see ESD how people dress up their females.
And on the Trek front, for we would loose the atmosphere Qo'noS managed to retain so far. Again: Is it really necessary to copy the whacky look of Starfleet? Can't we have one faction that looks like it did in the shows?
No. If you dress like a slave then you will be treated like a slave. If you do it voluntarily, something's wrong with your sense of honor. It's as simple as that. Don't you think this would have repercussions on how other Klingons deal with you?
And just having "some" backstory doesn't make it more believable. You just can't justify everything, and sometimes trying to do so is actually more facepalm-worthy than just rolling without any excuse at all.
Which I think is necessary. Look, there's only one of two ways here:
A) achieve total freedom in customization
You can only go one way. They are not compatible. Almost every player doesn't care about making his or her character fit into the setting, instead going by what he or she thinks is cool or sexy based on their respective preference as a 21st century Human. This game is not about 21st century Humans, and if you let people dress however they want you're sacrificing the atmosphere of the show. You're going to loose the "Trek". Might as well play Second Life or whatever.
Maybe you should take a look at STO's faction page.
Both, in a way. Everyone expects the motions, the intent on the other hand matters to the ones that believe in tradition and honour.
Heh. I see this kind or justification pop up every single time when such a topic is discussed. And I don't buy it. Sure, I can see why some people absolutely want to play the special snowflake and the Mary Sue that can achieve everything and is so awesome the whole galaxy loves him/her, but in the end this is an MMO, and other player characters need to be taken into consideration as well.
"If everyone is special, nobody is."
I'm quite happy with my - so I believe - interesting and believable characters without the need to make them stand out of the crowd. You can be unique without being a Picard, a Kirk or a Worf. Every person has his own story, his own struggle. You don't need to have the entire galaxy know of it to make it exciting.
The Orions are in the KDF though, we can say they're allied and really not in it, but I think it's stretching. Do the Vulcans have unique off duty clothes? Can't really find anything on it and used my char slots, if they don't then that's another thing.
Since for however many months only the Orions have been able to wear it, I'm certain all but new players will, call it Orion in the editor even they will.
I rarely ever see much more than two dozen people on Qo'nos, maybe half are females, even with a bit over half of them wearing the bikini that isn't changing much, and frankly I very much doubt there'd be a rush to play KDF because they all get bikinis, and even now all Orion females don't wear bikinis, most maybe but not all.
No you would lose the atmosphere, the greathall still looks Klingons, there's still going to be lots of Klingon NPCs, klingon music. In a quick beam down early hours to Qo'nos I saw 6 aliens, 5 klingon(2 lib borg), 2 joined trill(with mine 3), 5 orions(2 of them not even wearing a single bit of bikini), 2 Leatheans and a Nausicaan.
Now later in the day I would expect to see more orions and aliens proportionally, but even when I've flown through space infoing every captain Klingons are still around a quarter of the numbers, sometimes Orions have been half of what I see, but so have Klingons. The Empire is hardly overrun by dirty furriners.
The Empire of the shows is also not the Empire of this game, a long time has passed.
Did you watch ENT? The STO female Orions seem to be much more like the ones who tried to take over the Enterprise there, than actual slave girls. Probably some Orion females are actual slaves and not spies/saboteurs, but the issue is left muddied from ENT. Having seen female Orions in STO ordering around male NPCs I'm going with ENTs interpretation of them being true in STO.
Now if a Klingon thinks there is something wrong with the character's sense of honour, then they should stop being a coward, say so and accept the consequences, there'll be repercussions alright...for them. See it's not hard to think through this kind of thing if you're at least willing to try.
I can't justify absolutely everything there is, but I can justify this, just never to you for no matter what is said you aren't going to change your opinion on it unless a new Trek series was released and we saw a klingon in a bikini(Orion/Earth w/e) or fine silk dress.
C) You learn to tolerate and ignore things like most other people manage when they come across something that bugs them? If I can deal with the silly characters made in Aion, that terrible "The Core" film, and 3 foot tall aliens here so can you.
D) Start up that old campaign to get choose what other peoples uniforms appear as.
E) Campaign to get "roleplay" instances added that you have to tick a box in options to visit and where everyone at least wears the STO uniforms and Klingon battlegear, might be possible might not.
More like some don't care about fitting the setting, and some don't care about fitting your vision of the setting and why should they? Also seriously "by what he or she thinks is cool or sexy based on their respective preference as a 21st century Human", are they supposed to go by their preference as an imaginative 25th century human? All ST springs from the minds of 20th and 21st century humans, that kind of demand on people is a bit much don't you think.
Second Life might actually be a good fit for you if want "immersion" and "atmosphere" with it's Trek roleplayers. Because here you'll never really have the atmosphere of the show, such rigidity just isn't for most people.
Well you could also get a group that roleplays on each other's bridges with properly dressed boffs, a dose of atmosphere for you, a dose of fun harmless fun for everyone else.
Which bit, the bit where the Klingon talks about allies? That goes against me how? Oh no the Klingons are in charge of the alliance and conquered the Gorn, so xenophobic! Clearly my argument is disproved... or not. If the Orions/Letheans/Nausicaans attempted to withdraw from the alliance, they'd probably get attacked but that's not uncommon in Earth wars so doesn't prove anything.
Right and the ones to whom intent matters most, won't really be too bothered by what you wear or if you TRIBBLE up a ritual a little, the others you can have a backstory of having sucessfully challenged warding off others from trying to disparage you for trivialities. Or perhaps in the 20 or so years the Klingons were allied with Feds, and 15 or so Klingons with Orions like I said before, a countercultural movement has sprung up, and perhaps someone who's risen to a powerful position in a notable greathouse is in this movement.
Actually as an MMO pretty much everyone is a Mary Sue, it tends to take either BIG raids or mass world pvp to avoid that and even then. How many ships have you destroyed? People killed?
Loads of video game characters are thus "Mary Sues" a term I feel is even more overused than Godwin's Law. In the Halo series Master Chief is pretty much the saviour of humanity and the galaxy, the covenant split was required to win but he did save all life in the Galaxy more than once. People like being amazing heroes, that's fine if you prefer being like Captain Tryla Scott, but I'm betting most people want to be like Picard.
I actually don't think wearing funny outfits would make a character a Mary Sue, having determind that no not everyone loves for them and they probably have to go that extra mile to prove themselves, rather than everything falling easily into their laps.
Oh well that's non single player games for you, not much of a big deal and with STO's instancing it's much less of a problem than in other games, I won't ever see you stopping the Devidians and you won't see me doing it, unlike some quest chain in WoW that doesn't end in a dungeon run.
Player character ones? I don't think so. But they do exist for NPCs. If you want to have them as unique off duty costumes, I suppose a thread in the C-Store forum would be appropriate. It'd be justified, anyways.
Just because something is named a certain way won't change people's perception of it.
Yeah sure, just like ESD looks like Starfleet? Oh, wait, it doesn't. Player characters are an integral part of the world, and if you have all of them run around in bikinis then it simply changes how the world looks like.
In any case, yes, I would lose the atmosphere. That said, given that this is a Star Trek game, I am now left to wonder what other atmosphere there could be?
You misunderstood. We are not talking about Orions here. We are talking about how -Klingons- (or other species) would be treated if they dress like slaves.
One of my characters is an Orion as well and am using the exact same interpretation of background: http://www.startrekonline.com/character_profiles/1181978/view
In fact, I've got her as a player character and my Klingon's BO simultaneously, effectively leading a double life.
It's not very "professional" to take the NPCs ignorance as acceptance just because they are not scripted to react based on what a player wears. That's the same kind of flawed logic that supposedly led many WoW players to believe it's perfectly okay to run around in the midst of Stormwind or Darnassus with freshly summoned demons despite this being outlawed.
Yes. Sorry that I am basing my arguments on what we know about a culture.
Since "C" is the same as "A" and "D" and "E" are not going to happen (though I did in fact campaign for "D" just yesterday) I don't see how those are supposed to be options.
As roleplayers? Yes, that's the entire idea of "playing a role", no? Of course I can understand that people won't give a s**t when they do not care about the setting anyways, but hey, you started to argue that it would in fact make sense in-universe.
The bit where the Klingon clearly contradicts your stance on their view on the Federation, for example.
What kind of logic is that? Those are the ones who will be pis*ed the most because you clearly do not even have the intent to wear something appropriate.
As I said, I take pride in being the exception then, and that my characters actually -fit in-.
If the normal rules of the setting do not apply for them? Sounds pretty Mary Sue for me.
I see we won't be getting nowhere with this debate, though. Our "perception" of the setting clearly varies too much, and likewise our opinion regarding the atmosphere of the game. I simply believe in unique differences, be it between factions or species, whilst you are apparently okay with everybody being the same. That's a fundamental conflict we won't be able to bridge regardless of how long we continue to argue, so we may as well stop at this point.
Until I got to this bit I was going to go through your post point by point but I agree that we'll never come to a conclusion either of us will agree on and since this is now pretty much a two person thread continuing would be unlikely to sway devs either way. If this issue pops up again though I expect we'll probably both be back at it.
I believe in differences between societies just not ones that are immutable and clothes aren't something I view as unique in the same manner as you, to go into detail on my views would take too long so I'm not going to bother.
I'm okay with everyone having the same options to me that's fairness, and I can't bring myself to ever not go against something that seems unfair, not that I'm fine with everyone being the same though if it ends up like that because of personal choice I can't say I'd be bothered by it.