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Klingon Alternatives to crafting
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I've seen a few posts from Dstahl that they are looking internally at how to give us the same items the Feds get from crafting, either by giving us crafting or through an alternative means. I thought a discussion of some ideas might be in order so the Devs can see where we are coming from and what we would like if possible.
While I have no problems with Klingon crafting or Klingon science in general (they did after all have warp in 930 Earth CE). But I think one more way of making Klingons their own faction is to make our method of acquiring these items distinct.
While I actually do not have any specific ideas (that's a first), there is no thing I refuse to accept. Klingons are not Pakleds, we do not look for things that make us go, we are not thieves either. If we cannot have a system that allows for crafting than please give us something that keeps our honor and traditions in mind.
Now does anyone have any ideas on how to make this work?
While I have no problems with Klingon crafting or Klingon science in general (they did after all have warp in 930 Earth CE). But I think one more way of making Klingons their own faction is to make our method of acquiring these items distinct.
While I actually do not have any specific ideas (that's a first), there is no thing I refuse to accept. Klingons are not Pakleds, we do not look for things that make us go, we are not thieves either. If we cannot have a system that allows for crafting than please give us something that keeps our honor and traditions in mind.
Now does anyone have any ideas on how to make this work?
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Ok, but how do you make that system work without it basically ending up with Klingons as Tech thieves?
whats wrong with kdf being tech thieves, people need to stop calling the kdf klingon, we have nausican and gorn and we are more then happy to nick tech.
We do have Nausiccans, Gorn and Letheans and Orions, but the only one of these groups that gives missions, grants access to items and currency is the KDF. All of these species go to the Chancellor for promotions and are promoted in front of the High Council. Thieves are not tolerated in Klingon culture, be that Klingon thieves or any other species.
Agreed!
There's a big difference between taking what you want and stealing. In "Stealing", the original owner doesn't know who the thief was - it's a cowardly act with no honor! Klingons do not hide in the shadows.
Taking is your right by conquest. If they cannot defend it, they have no right to it.
I'm by no means an expert, but It is also in canon. Klingons didn't develop warp drive on their own. They were uplifted by another race and bred as "fighters" to control their empire. Eventually, the Klingons rebelled and killed their masters. It's where the Klingon saying "We killed out gods" comes from.
I hadn't heard that about Klingons taking warp from others, but regardless the question I'm asking I think still stands. How can we make a system where "the right of conquest" doesn't dissolve into theft? Not saying it cannot happen just that I'm not sure how to do it.
I don't think any of that is canon. I've never seen an episode state that. Or read in the encyclopedia or memory alpha any of that. Please cite your source?
Like the ships for the end of august that dstahl said we would get i call BS on this happening anytime b4 season em 10 or 20 .
Shall we start a betting pool ?:mad:
Look I can sit around and cry about what I don't have as a Klingon or I can try and engage in constructive discussions about things that Devs have already mentioned. You don't have to join me, but I certainly know which one makes me feel more like a Klingon.
Edit: That sounds harsher than I intended... I just mean that at this point I can't be bothered to worry about what they do or don't give me or when it comes. I'd rather take what they say and try to make an impression on them. Dstahl has mentioned (I think even in this last Ask Cryptic) that they are trying to get Klingon the same crafted items some how.
I don't want to give the impression that the Klingons have never created anything, they do have scientists.
Sounds like a semantical problem. As long as who you took it from knows who you are and has the oppontunity to fight (if they want) it's not theft. So, technically any mission where you kill your opponents and take it isn't theft, it's conquest.
Of course, that's not to say that with subjugation doesn't come responsibility. The Klingon Empire has brought many of the weaker races into their Empire. They get protection and the opportunity to serve.
You may also remember Worf's line: "Klingons do not 'pursue relationships.' They conquer that which they desire."
The creation myth reads like a myth. Memory Alpha also states clearly that the Klingon Empire was a spacefaring race that expanded because its homeworld was resource poor and they focused on exploration and conquer.
You are correct, all hard canon sources are very much open to interpretation. Soft canon sources don't carry as much weight.
The hard canon is littered with references to their "creators". For example, Worf's line:
Which to me also means that as a sapient species, Klingons haven't been around as long as humans (a millennium isn't so long ago after all). You may also recall Worf talking about the "thrill" of the hunt, it seemed pretty clear to me this was an "animal" memory/instinct - it goes to their origins.
Also, as a proud Klingon, I think I'd tell aliens the "official" Memory Alpha version of the story and leave off the bit about how "we were once slaves".
Regardless, for the purpose of this thread, I still suggest Conquest is a perfectly legitimate technique as "an alternative to crafting".
So pick up a green hyper impulse engine, you can sell it or break it down and learn something. Maybe you get basic components after breaking it down like in Champs or maybe just generic knowledge that can be applied to upgrade basic stuff.
Components would clearly be easier to come by than the Federation side, but at a cost, basically reducing your credit income. It would also give some use to all that trash that sits on the exchange if the KDF could buy it and break it down to reverse engineer it.
Now you can argue semantics and call this theft, but honestly it fits the Empire pretty well. They have not been represented as the most ingenious of species, but their technological advancement seems to come from utilizing technology from other species, conquered or otherwise, and applying it to their own uses. "Hey they have a good idea, how can we use it?"
Other than Chang's BOP I can't think of many instances where the Klingons were shown to have come up with something on their own. And there isn't anything wrong with that. Reverse engineering or copycat engineering is very common for us, we see something we never thought of and try to make it work on our own. And getting your hands on a piece of that technology helps that happen.
I think it makes sense to think that the Klingons aren't a species at the forefront of technological advancement, but they aren't stupid either, and they won't get left behind because they are very good at reverse engineering the things other species come up with.
Now the Orions, however, have been represented as a very advanced species several times over in canon, so with them on the KDF side, they could always be in charge of a brand new KDF R&D department that does things closer to the way the Federation does, with true scientific discovery, which is another option.
Hmmm, wait - I know! It's a weapon! :eek:
I sort of like that idea (I've even used it before) as it not only involves Conquest, but would give KDF players something else to do. But I've always worried it might be impractical as the technique doesn't exist in the game (I keep thinking of deconstruction as "schematics"). But, you could do as a "trade-in" system like Memory Alpha; you just need to change the verbiage a bit.
The "uplift" comes from Starfleet Battles/Starfleet Command, both of which are not even soft canon I'm afraid.
There it is explained that the Klingons were taken to the stars by a species called the Old Kings, however the Starfleet Battles license means that anything developed for that game is not even soft canon, and even means it can be called Star Trek, but it is a seperat universe.
Starfleet Command contained the same history section for the Klingons as Star Fleet Battles because it is based on it, but it is still less than soft-canon.
Insteat maybe you'd like to take a look here:
http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Klingon_history
Particularly this section:
"The origins of the Klingon Empire began in around 854 AD, the so-called "Heroic Age of Qo'noS", when Kahless the Unforgettable united the many warring tribes of Qo'noS. Under Kahless's leadership, the Klingons began to expand their empire across the planet and out into the galaxy following the development of warp drive in 922 AD."
Which means there was already a Klingon Empre before they were conquered by the Hur'q, which means they did not get Warp Drive from them, but rather developed it themselves.
So I try to give sources for the facts that say the Klingons develope stuff themselves and you say I derail the thread, very good.
Back on topic:
My proposal for a Klingon version of crafting that may not differ that much from Memeory Alpha is still the same it used to be a couple of months ago.
"Rura Penthe" was called a "Gulag" in Star trek 6 and the Soviets had a secret Gulag system for imprisoned scientists.
The living conditions were far better than in the regular Gulags and the prisoners were tasked with the development of technologies important to the state.
Why not use that.
Currently we do not have security clearance to go to Rura Penthe, maybe there is a reason for that.:D
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharashka
Conquerable Space.
The feds have explorable space, we should have the variation. "Separate but equal..."
If the Klingon Empire is at war with the Federation, then it is safe to assume that it is at war (on a smaller scale, and clearly winning) with various civilizations that didn't have the luxury of being part of a larger organization.
Those civilizations could be in that 'explorable space' just ripe for the taking.
A variation on that idea is to have 'winnable areas' depending on how good klingon players are at winning important battles in that area... perhaps being reset every so often.
Again that's just an idea, I know it's not entirely feasible... then again I am not a programmer, but it would be fun, would keep players active feeling like they're doing something for the empire on a border where the federation has no influence, and overall have something unique to the klingon faction (a la the federation's diplomatic program).
"We have Klingon diplomats sure... they just have sharp weapons and big warships in orbit."
As far as I know, there is a warrior class, but the Klingons also have workers, farmers and of course scientists.
So, there should be no problem giving the Klingons Crafting; only that the warriors do not do it themself. Maybe they just give something to the engineers and/or scientists and get in exchange the crafted/upgraded thing.
http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Science_Institute_on_Mempa_V
Or if Cryptic actually wants to do something interesting why not add the worlds of the Klingon allies why not place crafting there?
Maybe something as unusual as placing specific kinds of crafting on each planet.
For example weapons and shields could be made by the Gorn, Nausiccans could make engines etc.
Don't misunderstand this idea:
Everyone can build a disruptor or an impulse engine, but perhaps the best of the best of the Klingon allies' scientists happen to be on/from this or that particular planet in this generation.:)
Not positive about this, but as an aside, I believe some ships the Klingons use did start as Romulan ships. Once they've got something, I assume they're good enough to take it apart, make new ones, and add improvements.
Some scientists are actually even Klingon. I suspect a lot more of those workers and scientists were those alien races cheerfully absorbed into the Klingon Empire by conquest (which sure beats being destroyed).
I don't think anyone on the thread has a problem with Klingons getting crafted goods, they just want a way that increases immersion for the players - who are after all playing the "elite" warrior class. Conquest seems a good fit for that to me, but some don't seem to like it because "stealing" isn't "honorable" and they can't separate "taking" from "theft" (they probably don't use cloaking either
Speaking of which, here's an alternative. They could just clone the Memory Alpha system. Sure, some Klingons wouldn't touch it because it's beneath them. But the KDF isn't just Klingons, and the other member races might enjoy a bit of crafting now and then.
Please, I don't mind a good argument that's on topic, but lets not start making up stuff that I said. My last post didn't do any "you started it" silliness and I've never called them "robbers". Also, that Klingons "Take what they want", and that they have taken "technology by force", and "conquered" is all hard canon. I do not call them "robbers", I call them "Conquerors" and the distinction is very explicit in my posts. The bit about the gods was in reference to a request for a citation regarding the "uplift" and little to do with the rest (which has never been proven untrue). But if you want to discuss Klingon Origins please start another thread, play fair, and PM me about it.
I like this idea too. Some Klingon purists would say that "crafting" is beneath them, but as I said earlier the KDF isn't just Klingons.
I still like the Conquest idea best so far. It gives Klingons a reason for "exploration" missions and is somewhat synonymous with the Federation as they tend to get a lot of the anomalies they use for crafting via exploration. The big difference of course is that in the Federation you know what you're getting for your trade-ins and can plan for it. You could still do the selection mechanism as you would with any mission reward, but the "planning" bit is a bit harder (I can just see the mission description, "The Marins of Delta 3 have developed a new shield technology and think that with it they can secede from the Empire. Go teach them the error of their ways, bring the technology to us, and execute their leaders").
Edit: BTW, if we must have just one location to craft, your idea of "Rura Penthe" is an excellant one for the reasons you described.
I like the Gulag style idea, it also sort of fits well with the scenes we saw in ENT of the Klingon Scientist. He certainly seemed to be working in less than ideal conditions.
Worf's plan to stop the Jem'Hadar ships and pull them out of warp was scientific in nature, and at first I dismissed it as a product of his time in Star Fleet, but then Kor understood the plan and was able to execute it without Worf being present, so clearly their mind comprehend these kinds of things.
I'm leaning more and more towards a system the is crafting, but perhaps more about "practical" crafting than anything as involved as Memory Alpha.
Thanks,
Stormshade
Thanks, and I want to say that I know your job is a big one, but your continued presence here in the Klingon forums is appreciated.
Including the homeworlds for the Gorn, Nausicaans and Orions and then separating the crafting tech into three different areas, allowing Klingon Warriors to gain advanced technology upgrades from there allies is a wonderful idea. It would also add new social hubs, each of the three new planets would naturally be very unique, compared to the Klingon planets.
Remember these two Enterprise episodes, "Fortunate Son" and "Marauders"?
Well there's canon evidence in the first episode I linked that shows Nausicaan pirates attacking / raiding a Y-class freighter for cargo, so there's one idea that could be viable, involving raids that not only utilise space combat, but also ground combat (if the Devs could produce a small freighter interior). You could acquire anomaly samples or possible (which I would prefer) acquire various resources (that are not anomalies) to hand over to the scientists on the Gorn, Nausicaan and Orion homeworlds. Yes I'm suggesting scrapping the use of anomalies for the Klingons, but not scrapping how the system works, just basically replacing the names of the anomaly items to the names of various resources.
I also don't see why this suggestion above couldn't work for the other races within the KDF, so whether you're a Klingon Warrior, a Gorn, a Nausicaan, or a Orion, you can do as suggested above.
There is also canon evidence in the second episode I linked that shows a Klingon ship arriving at a small mining colony, and the Klingon crew expect to be simply given all the deuterium reserves.
If you are given something, you have not stolen it, so that solves all of the conjecture about stealing on page #1. Now this could easily work just as it does in the episode, much the same as my first suggestion, but with a twist. You would beam down to a mining colony expecting to be given a gift and proceed to talk to the workers. There would be a chance for the resource reserve to be completely dry, a chance for the resource reserve to lower than expected by the KDF or a chance for the resource reserve to be at the expected level.
Depending on the resource reserve level, the players choices would change and the outcome would change.
There could also be a chance that a rival faction race could step in and intervene, much as the crew of the Enterprise did in the episode, if you use your imagination and consider the STO engine possibilities, I think this could work very well and be extremely unique to the Klingon Faction.
I personally only see "Rura Penthe" as a mining prison and wouldn't want to see it used for the purposes of "crafting", but for a new gameplay element, involving prisoners of war as well as story based missions.
I second this...the last thing we need to do is perpetuate the myth of intellectual inferiority.:mad:
The difference isnt so much in how the advancments happen...its in the priorities of what is researched, the resources allocated to it and means of distribution.
I'd like to see KDF research facilities that distribute "proto-types" based on instruction from the Empire or the head of Houses. The means of obtaining the "privelege" of recieving such advanced proto-types, be tied one's warrior prowess, dedication to duty to the Empire or House, and status within the Empire or House.
Basically, the completon of certain activities would grant credit toward the "privelege". Maybe it would use certain alcolades and trophies as currency...proof of one's contributions to the Empire or House.
To better flesh out the experience, what I'd like to see is different Houses and branches of the KDF that we could do missions for. These Houses and branches would provide access to certain specific "proto-types". So Cannon guys might do missions for a certain branch or House to gain access to its new cannon proto-type. For me, i'd like to see the process not be too linear. That way the content isnt just grinded to reach the "reward"...but thats likly asking too much.
Also, i'd like to see the process be one of just bouncing from one House to the other "trick or treating" for gear. House relations should be maintained...working and gaining status for one House should make things difficult, if not impossible, to gain status within another in order to gain access to their proto-types. Betrayal shouldnt be an option since such actions would be frowned upon by all Houses, making the prospect of achieving or maintaining status within their ranks unlikly.